Will Saletan: Political Delusion

Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. Happy Monday. It is December eleven two thousand twenty three. We start off the week with my colleague, Will Saletan. How are you, Will?

Great, Charlie. We have something new in Washington today. It is called Snow. Everyone’s very excited.

Weirdly enough don’t have any snow on the ground right now in Wisconsin, but it’s really not a matter of excitement here because it’s, like, nine months out of the year. So, hey, congratulations. Enjoy. We have all the equipment, though. I mean, we’re ready.

I have a giant snowblower in the garage. We have salters. We have, you know, every municipality has You know, these huge snow plows. So it’s no big deal. I understand that in Washington, there’s a little snow in it.

Big goes, what do we do? Does anybody know anyone who

has a shovel? So Washington to me is an upgrade from where I grew up in Texas. Literally, in Texas, it snowed a quarter of an inch Charlie Sykes closed the schools. They had no idea what to do. In Washington, what happens is what happens is there will be members of Congress who will be showing up with little jars of snow to show that global warming is fake.

That’s wonderful. Okay. So let’s start off

the week this way. I wanna confess that my morning shots newsletter is perhaps a little more depressing than than usual, but I woke up this morning and I thought, okay. So how do we start the week? And there’s just so many things to keep track of over the weekend as there is every every Monday. Right?

But it did feel like the planets are aligning. And so I did a series of alignments. So on the website, formerly known as Twitter, now known as, I believe, shitter. Is it eight pounds? It’d be I I I’m not I’m not sure.

So you have Alex Jones Elon Musk and Drew Tatevink Ramaswamy together in one thing. I had a tweet here so that somebody wrote saying nothing to see here. Just the owner of this site and a presidential candidate chatting it up with a man indicted for rape human trafficking. That’s Andrew tape. And another who lied about dead kids to harass their grieving parents.

So happy Alex Jones is back on Twitter. Monday. So that felt like an alignment of the planets. Meanwhile, in Think Tank World, you probably saw this story, Victor Orban, the Heritage Foundation and the Propruit and Wing of the GOP are having a party. Right?

They all walk into a bar together. That’s actually not a joke. Allies of Hungary’s far right prime minister, Victor Orban, will hold a closed door meeting with Republicans in Washington to push for an NDP US military support for Ukraine. This is from the Guardian. Members of the Hungarian Institute for International Affairs, blah, blah, blah, will be meeting on Monday at a hosted by the conservative heritage foundation, think tank.

Now for those people who kind of remember heritage was kind of the think tank for the Reagan years, and it’s like rolling over in his grave. Meanwhile in Congress, gonna be a hell of a week. They have four days to go through. They’re gonna adjourn, you know, at the end of the year. Vladimir Zelensky is in town.

Trying to make it appeal do not abandon us. They’re gonna have to pass the National Defense Bill. They’re also gonna be voting on, of course, beginning the impeachment inquiry into Joe Biden. Now that they may not pass the defense bill. They may leave Israel and Ukraine, high and dry.

They may fail to do these most basic functions of national security, but they’re probably gonna have a vote by the end of the week to, begin the impeachment inquiry into Joe Biden. You think they’re gonna do it? Do they have

enough votes? They’re right on the edge. The impeachment vote is this game where they’re trying to downgrade what this means for the purposes of persuading the last few Republicans to join. Oh, this is just an inquiry. This is or we’re not We’re just just literally.

We’re just asking questions.

We have no evidence, but we’re looking for evidence because it’s probably under that rock over there.

Okay. Right. And the so the game is to sell that message that it’s not a big deal to the last few Republicans while selling to the public the idea that, oh, we have an impeachment degree because Joe Biden needs to be impeached.

Alright. So we’ve already gone through. Alex Jones, Elon Musk, Andrew Tate, Vivec guaramaswamy getting together. Victor Orban, the Republicans and the Heritage Foundation getting together. And meanwhile, in, New York, there was a gathering of the deplorables This is the lead from Political’s, report.

The chairman of an Austrian political party founded by an ex Nazi, the conservative Twitter star behind the anti trans Bud light backlash and former president Donald Trump all walked into a bar. Seriously, because it actually happened. And Trump is in New York bragging about why he wants to be a dictator. He’s he’s not backing away from it. He’s basically saying, you know why I wanted to be a dictator for one day?

Because I want a wall, I wanna drill, drill, drill, drill, adding the Democrats’ newest hoax is to label him a threat to democracy. The former president was preaching to his base Saturday as a mix firebrand conservative media icons siloed far right lawmakers, and wealthy, Maga loving donors chanted his name and cheered pro trump speeches from carefully plated banquet tables. Okay. Feel like I should have spent the weekend going to the Hunger Games movie instead of this stuff. But, okay.

So

And we have the Hungry games instead of the Hungry games.

Yes. I do want to be a dictator. And this is why I wanna be a dictator, but it’s a hoax when the Democrats say I wanna be a dictator.

Right. Well, you know, can I just say in in trump’s diff well, for a couple of things? First of all, Okay. We got the hungarians. We got the Austrian far right.

We’ve we’ve this is like a Steve Van and Wet dream. Right? We’ve got Unthink that. All of the nationalists from all of the nations. So it’s really a as we’ve said before, it’s a globalist movement of Jonathan Last.

Right? It’s the far right from their countries and ours. But in Trump’s defense, Charlie, he has reiterated at this thing in Manhattan. What he said to Sean Hannity? It’s only for a day, queen for a day.

I only wanna be dictator for one. And remember, also, Just to be clear, a lot of people, Trump gets a bad rap about suspending the constitution. But again, he only said that we should suspend it just to put him back in power despite having lost the election. Right? So just one thing.

And, you know, a lot of Republicans are sort of, like, That’s not that bad. One one day.

Yeah. It just went one day because there’s a long and rich history of dictators being dictated for one day and then surrendering their power the next day. Right? I mean, it’s like, yes, it’s fascism on Tuesday. Wednesday, it’s back to what?

Business as usual, congressional votes, things like that. And, of course, this Wall Street Journal over the weekend. It feels like every single Monday we have one of these, dystopian polls. This is the Wall Street Journal poll showing Biden lagging behind Trump by four points forty seven forty three, unhappiness with biden is persuasive in the new survey. So I I’d look I don’t wanna get bogged down in in the polls, but It’s one of those Mondays where you wake up and go, could we really use some better news?

But could we start with our moment of of political delusion? Which one? Trick question. Right. Okay.

So Kevin McCarthy, who is outgoing is leaving, shall we say headed to, greener pastures in the private sector? Very green. Oh, very green. Yes. The word green is, a little understated here.

Bob Kosta, he’s sitting down with Bob Kosta and CBS talking about his predictions for the future. Talking about Donald Trump. He’s endorsing Donald Trump. He finally got around. To endorsing.

This is such a classic moment. Donald Trump completely humiliates him by letting him be thrown out as speaker. Does not lift a finger. Apparently, that a very tense phone call in which the f bomb was thrown back and forth. Well, of course, knowing Kevin McCarthy the the next day after being humiliated and screaming f bombs, of course, he tugs the four lock and, you know, get down on one knee and kisses Donald Trump’s ring?

I think when when the f word comes from Kevin McCarthy to Donald Trump, it is fawn. It’s fawn. Just be just to be clear. Fawn. He fawns.

Yes. Fluff. Oh, fluff. Even better. Yeah.

There’s a lot of f words here. Okay. So let’s play this. I think kind of revealing back and forth Bob cost asks, I think, some pretty good questions here. Let’s play this.

But many Americans, they look at his language. They listen to his speeches. Trump. And they hear an authoritarian. Some say even a fascist on the horizon in this country.

Isn’t that smart?

What do you say to those people who have those real concerns.

Okay. I I don’t see that in this is what I tell this is what I tell president Trump too. What president Trump needs to do in this campaign, it needs to be about rebuilding, restoring, renewing America. Three r. It can’t be about revenge.

He’s talking about retribution, day in, day out.

He needs to stop that. He needs to stop that.

You think he’s going to listen to you saying?

Yeah.

Stop that.

Stop that.

Listen to you, Capitol.

He hasn’t listened to anybody before?

That’s not true. He would adapt when he gets all the facts.

He’s not backing away from his calls for retribution.

Yeah. But remember, you have a check and balance system, and I think at the end of the day,

Where’s the check and balance on him and the Republican part?

America doesn’t want to see, the idea of retribution. If it’s rebuild, restore, and renew, And I think you’ll see that.

Well, and by the way, this added an a fourth, already retire because Kevin McCarthy is just about to make himself completely irrelevant post humiliation. And he’s basically say, no. No. No. No.

He’ll he’ll listen to me because I’m what I’m telling me is he needs to go with those three r’s, and Bob goss is going, what the hell do you think he’s gonna listen to you? Do you listen to him every single speech? Is revenge retribution? What we’re going to do? Day one dictator.

And Kevin’s like, no. No. No. He’ll once he gets the information, there’ll be all these checks and balances, and cost is looking at what what planet is is this the head space that Kevin McCarthy has to occupy, or is he just completely full of shit? Both.

So when I was writing about Lindsey Graham, this is pattern that I saw in Graham, McCarthy, and some others. I call it coaching. So Donald Trump signals. This is way back twenty fifteen. Donald Trump signaling to everybody.

Hey, I’m an authoritarian. I wanna do authoritarian things. And they’re all like, well, we don’t know if we should nominate this guy. Then he’s getting close to the nomination. And suddenly, they start putting out this line.

Oh, we’re not going to stop him from getting the nomination. In fact, we’re gonna support him for president. But we’re gonna tell him. Please. Please don’t say these things.

Please don’t do these things. Then for eight years, he ignores them and says and does those things. And they still pedal this line. What’s McCarthy said here? He needs to stop that.

I’m gonna tell him don’t do retribution. Like, that’s really gonna help. Of course, the other thing McCarthy is saying here is about the checks and balance. Yeah. Right.

Now here, we’re not talking about the failure of Donald Trump to listen to anyone else. We’re talking about the failure of Republicans. You had two impeachments. You could have removed this guy from office. You could have prevented him from being president again by supporting the impeachment after he tried a coup to overthrow the government And you Kevin McCarthy actually said at the time that he was responsible for that.

Right?

Right.

So there won’t be any checks and balances because people like Kevin McCarthy were supposed to be the checks and balances, and they failed, and they will fail again and again and again.

So you you read, Jonathan Martin’s piece in politico? Which one? The stop Trump effort has been abysmal. Mhmm. And by the way, I don’t think he’s talking about the Never Trump move, but we could actually do that as well.

But he’s talking about this pattern in the Republican Party. We know the fluffers like Lindsey Graham and, you know, and and Kevin McCarthy, but he sort of walks through how did all of the efforts, you know, to stop Donald Trump? How have they come up so short? And he kind of does this impressionist portrayal of the patent. Let me just read you.

The senior officials who worked in Trump’s administration would mute themselves, disagree on whether to go public with their fears about a restoration or just not working the coordinated strategic and relentless fashion that’s needed to go through voters. Apologies to John Kelly, who is willing to speak out. Republican officials who have little appetite for Trump’s return would stay mum and enable Trump’s comeback. Each of them finding a rationale for their silence, some more compelling than others. Those Republican lawmakers who did step up to try to block Trump’s path would not coordinate their efforts, would disagree on who the best alternative is and thereby muddy their effort and undermine their mission.

And the lackluster field would in the last full measure of their timidity prove unable to rally to a single alternative because they unwilling to sum the capacious necessary for the cause of stopping Trump. Oh, and Trump’s top alternatives would with one another in almost every debate and spend their negative advertising dollars on attacking one another rather than on targeting the former president Disagree if you want, Martin Rights, but as the kids say, where’s the lie? And this does feel as if that’s what we’re seeing. Agree, disagree. I wanna agree with Jonathan Martin here.

And and I think this underscores a very serious problem that we have, which is There are ways Charlie Sykes which democracy is stronger than authoritarianism, more resilient, more flexible people to bounce back. But there are also ways in which authoritarianism is stronger than democracy. And that’s what we’re saying. Right? The democracy is people disagreeing.

It’s pluralistic. So what he’s describing among the Never trumpers or not even Never trumpers, people who work for Trump, he’s describing timidity. He’s describing dissension We can’t all agree on something. They urge to compromise with the authoritarian to, like but we’re we’re not sure what we wanna do.

We we don’t always agree with each other. We don’t wanna make a fuss. We don’t wanna that is the way people function. A lot of people in a democracy. Well, you have a different point of view from me.

So who am I to or The authoritarian doesn’t have any of these problems. The authoritarian is like, this is what I want. This is what I’m going to do. Anyone who gets in my way, I’ll bulldoze them. And there is one authority.

It’s It’s the cult of Donald Trump. Right? And so I think what Jonathan Martin is describing there are some of the weaknesses of people who are used to functioning in a see and who are by their nature, pluralistic and democratic. And they’re up against somebody who doesn’t play by those rules.

I think you’re right about this that the one thing that is really striking is, you know, we keep saying things like, you know, don’t be numb that or, you know, that nothing about this is normal. And yet, Most of the political players outside of Mago World seem to at least on some level think that they are playing in a recognizable political universe. They’re playing by a different set of political rules. That’s part of this asymmetry. Different standards, different rules, different norms.

They look at the poll numbers, and they think, okay. So In nineteen eighty eight, it was like this. It’s like, okay. None of that applies here. Now one of the people, obviously, who is an exception to this rule who has been very, very, very forcefully speaking out against Donald Trump, and I think he’s prepared to do absolutely everything stop him and has no illusions about this whatsoever is, of course, Liz Cheney who was on the podcast last week here.

She was on with Jonathan Carl yesterday morning, and they were talking about and Jonathan, had interviewed the Donald Trump. Listen to this exchange about what Donald Trump told Jonathan Carl about January six two thousand twenty one and what, Liz Cheney has to say about this. Let’s play that one.

I wanna play a an audio clip from you from the conversation I had with Donald Trump just less than three months after January six where I asked him if he really wanted to go to the Capitol as he said in that speech.

I was thinking about going back during the problem to stop problem. Doing it myself. Secret service didn’t like that. I think so much. So so what I could have done that?

And you know what? I would have been very well to receive Don’t forget. The people that went to Washington that day, in my opinion, they went because they thought the election was

isn’t that right there an admission by Trump himself of his own culpability?

Yes. And it also it also tells you that he was fully aware that the crowd would follow his instructions. And that had he stood up and told people to leave at any moment they would have done so. As we know they did when he finally did tell people to leave.

Yeah. India, The thing about it is that Trump continues to lean into. Yeah. I did it. And I will do it again.

And people are going, you know, okay. Well, you know, that’s one data point, but, you know, can we talk about inflation or something? I mean, It is remarkable. I mean, he keeps saying, yeah. I wanted to go there.

They were my people. He he’s not even pretending it’s NT for anything like that, anyway. The these were my people, and I would have been well received because the people who are beating up the cops. I mean, these are the people who came there because I said they were gonna be there. Problematic.

So

Jack Smith, the current prosecution of Trump for January sixth, is gonna be about fraud and electors and that sort of thing. As far as I understand, Charlie, it’s not gonna be about the hundred eighty seven minutes that he’s sitting there in the White House.

Yeah.

But that was a focus of Liz Chaney’s during the January sixth Committee investigation. And to me, it’s still focal because Trump has never answered the question of, you know, who are all the people who came to him? What did he say to them? Here, he’s claiming that the Secret Podcast didn’t want him to go back. First of all, it’s very clear that Mark Meadows and Ivanka, a bunch of it people were were came to Trump and said, will you please stop this visible, physical, violent assault on the Capitol and on the Capitol Police?

And he didn’t do anything. And we still to this day do not know exactly what he said back to those people. Now maybe we’ll get Mark Meadows’ testimony about this, but I’m betting Charlie Sykes that Meadows’s testimony was apparently gonna be limited to what’s, you know, in the charges from Jack Smith that we’re not gonna get that in this trial. And I don’t know if we’ll ever find out, but that was a fundamental thing. Donald Trump knew, and this statement to Jonathan Carl proves it.

He knew that he could have stopped He knew the violence was going on because we know he was watching it on TV. He knew he could have stopped it. That’s clear. And he didn’t. He allowed a violent assault on the United States and on our capital.

We don’t have enough time to really dive into what Jack Smith is doing in that case. There have been some, very, very important rulings, including the appeals court ruling, basically reinstating some of the gag order acknowledging how dangerous Donald Trump can be But I think the big thing to focus on, and this is, like, the most important thing that’s happening right now, and maybe the most important thing in all of this litigation, It is the question of whether or not Judge Juddkin’s trial will go ahead on March fourth. Donald Trump, as we know, because this is pattern practice is doing everything possible to delay this. And the most important motion, at least from the I know that I’ve been told, our friends from Law Fair also have have identified this is his argument that he should be immune from prosecution because he was president. It’s a big issue because If the courts would ever rule this, they basically are saying, yeah, you know, that whole thing about the president, nothing above the law, yeah, he’s above the law.

I mean, you know, The whole we elect president’s not a king. No. No. We have a market, but in any case, the big question is during that appeal, the pendency of that appeal, is the trial put on hold? Will it be delayed?

Now, Judge Chutkin’s not gonna delay it. The question is will the appeals court delay it? They’ve sent signals that they will not delay it. Which leaves the US Supreme Court. And the US Supreme Court can save Donald Trump’s bacon, not by ruling in his favor.

But by stopping the trial while they hear the appeal. So this is like it feels like it’s the whole ball game. Right here. It may sound kind of technical, but it is the appeal is going up. It’s not the merits of the appeal, but I think it’s very, very unlikely he will win on the merit It’s whether or not he will succeed in getting a delay.

Right. But I don’t even know which way this cuts, Charlie, because we’ve seen such a love of Trump has obviously gained in the Republican polls, the more he’s indicted. The more he’s isolated, the more he’s, you know, can claim to be the victim of a two tier system of justice. So I saw this weekend, Rick Klein, ABC, political director, did a really good breakdown of how the the Republican primary schedule goes.

Yeah.

You have the early four states going, you know, from January through February twenty eighth, South Carolina, February twenty eighth. At that point, you know, you’re hoping that somebody Nikki Haley or whoever is like risen up to challenge Trump. But even in the scenario where that happens, which I think is very unlikely, February twenty eighth is South Carolina. Then you have super Tuesday, March fifth. The day after this trial is supposed to start.

Right? That’s one week. One week in which whoever has risen up is supposed to be able to fight Trump all over the country. By the end of Super Tuesday, Almost fifty percent of the delegates will be allotted. And Charlie, I think if that trial actually starts the day before super Tuesday, that helps Trump.

So the delay would actually help anyone else.

That is not wrong. That is not wrong. So is there anything else about Trump

that we need to talk about there’s the the new Des Moines Register pulls out, and this is a real body blow to anyone who hoped for Haley MENTum, which is sort of where I was. And I’m feeling now ashamed that I morally abandoned Chris Christie to to hope for Nikki Haley.

Yeah.

Anyway, we don’t know what’s gonna happen. But Nikki Haley had surged into a tie with Ron DeSantis for a distant second. That was Trump forty three DeSantis and Haley at sixteen.

Mhmm.

What’s happened in the last couple of months is First of all, DeSantis has risen a little. Haley hasn’t. That’s bad news because DeSantis is a stiff and him occupying the second place, make sure no one else can rise up. But the other thing that happened Charlie Sykes Donald Trump went from forty three percent in Iowa to fifty one percent. He went up.

The guy at the top is lead increase, and the reason why it’s not entirely clear one thing that changed was Yeah. In October, sixty five percent of the likely caucus goers in Iowa said that Donald Trump could beat Joe Biden. Now it’s seventy three percent. So what’s happened is there’s a feedback loop going between these bad national polls and Republican voters who are like

Oh, Trump is electable. So we’re gonna stay with it. It is interesting how much, you know, when, you know, a lot of the anti Trump Republicans push all of their chips into the, you know, well, Trump is not electable pile as opposed to the maybe you should make an argument about his fitness and how dangerous he is. No. No.

No. This is the one. This is the know, Paul Ryan assured me, Charlie, you don’t understand. This is the argument that will work with Republican voters that he cannot win the election. Well, this is just blown up in their face.

K. Each one of these states has their own unique, you know, factor. In Iowa, DeSantis has this tremendous like, infrastructure that theoretically he can tap into. You know, the the Vander Plats, Governor Reynolds endorsement and things like that. So it was always more plausible that DeSantis would be number two.

Haley, you know, is is there, but knowledge shift to New Hampshire. New Hampshire is a completely different. Christie has done very well there. There has to be some sort of a choice between Christie and and and Haley. I just don’t know how that plays.

Ron DeSantis is gonna be a complete, you know, nothing up in New Hampshire. So If I wanted to look for the unicorn, it would be, like, Ron DeSantis does surprisingly well in Iowa. People are, and then Haley does surprisingly well in New Hampshire, and people go, and then, of course, you roll into South Sarah Longwell everyone’s souls will be crushed again. So could we just anticipate that? Okay.

So let’s talk about some of the problems that Joe Biden is facing. These poll numbers are just horrific. They’re not getting better. They are not turning around. And one of the problems has been the split in the progressive coalition caused by the Israel Hamas war.

Which I think has taken some people by surprise, how deep it is, how enduring it is, Let’s play the sound bite that you you flagged for me, Will. From ABC News, we’re a Palestinian American activist talks about how they’re not gonna vote for Joe Biden because of this. Let’s play this maybe see news.

The president has been ramping up the pressure on Israel to do more to protect civilians and address the humanitarian crisis. And he’s tweaking his tone. Biden recently writing in an op ed, every innocent Palestinian life lost, is a tragedy that rips apart families and communities. But for advocates like Lexi Zedan who supported Biden in the past, it’s too little too late. Is there anything the president could do at this point that would regain your support?

Nothing.

We understand that no vote to a democratic candidate is gonna be a roka vote to a Republican candidate, and we are we are willing to take that risk.

She says it’s worth it to send a strong message to Democrats.

Maybe Trump woman, maybe Trump will get an office. And that’s to to open eyes in the ears of the rest of the public to say, listen, it’s gonna be short term pain for these next four years, but Democrats will not win Michigan until Democrats are ready to back Palaceide.

Okay, Will.

So so I normally, on Sunday, would post things from politicians talking on the Sunday shows. This time, I was like, well, this is an interesting statement. She’s saying, Trump, you know, for four years, not so bad. What could happen? What could go wrong?

Okay.

A little short term pain.

So I posted this to threads, and people went nuts. Just nuts. Just bombarding her. And I don’t know this person at all, but They all said, are you crazy? It’s just gonna be a short term pain just for four years.

So what I was surprised at is first of all, I can understand where this woman is coming from. If you believe that your people are being just massacred, right, and the party that you thought was gonna offend you isn’t there for you. I mean, that’s your single issue. I mean, Jews would do the same thing for Israel. Right?

But the response overwhelmingly was It’s what you and I have talked about, Charlie Sykes one job in twenty twenty four, and that is to defeat Donald Trump. And you rally around whoever else can stop him. And, currently, that is Joe Biden. And the idea that in a swing state like Michigan, you a progressive are gonna vote for somebody other than Biden and that you’re openly willing to get the result of of a Donald Trump presidency. And that you naively think that that would just be four years or that the pain would be minimal.

The realest The political realism kinda shocked me here, and it made me wonder. I mean, I feel bad for her, but I have some hope based on this that progressive people are gonna make the smart choice. They’re gonna suck it up, and they’re gonna vote for whoever will stop Trump. And that’s president Biden.

Two little sidebars here. You know, I think we talked about this last week, the way that John Federman, who’s quite progressive, has stepped up and is really become one of the most interesting members of the Senate on this issue of Hamas. But over the weekend, Bernie Sanders, took a very strong position against a permanent ceasefire, basically saying you can’t have a ceasefire with Hamas. I have to admit. I did not see Bernie Sanders on my bingo card as pushing back against his fellow progressives as hard as he has been.

Well, first of all, Sanders internationally. He’s a human rights guy, but he’s equal opportunity about that. He’s, you know, if the Russians are attacking Ukraine, standers doesn’t go into some old sort of leninist garbage. He’s like, this is a human rights situation. Right?

We’re going to defend the innocent party.

Yeah.

In Israel, standards is, you know, serious about, like, the Hamas attack on Israelis was also the deliberate attack on civilians. Right? That’s a human right situation. But he’s also acknowledging the human rights aspects of what’s going on in Gaza, right, and protecting civilians as far as possible. His distinction here is between the humanitarian pause, which is temporary and is about protecting civilians.

And a ceasefire, which is, first of all, between Israel and Hamas. Right? That’s, like, letting Hamas off the hook. And the idea that it’s permanent, And look, it is a fact that Hamasa said we are gonna do October seventh again. Exactly.

They’re not subtle about this at all. Right. And so Bernie is not naive about that. It’s very explicit, and he’s not gonna accept a permanent ceasefire, but he does want a humanitarian pause. As do many other progressives.

You wanna talk about these university presidents? I do. This has become fascinating just watching the the free speech debate And I I think it’s more complex than than some of the reaction. There was a rather shambolic congressional hearing. Particularly symbolic because the questioner was Elise Stephanick, who is asking the presidents of University of Pennsylvania Harvard and MIT.

Should people be able to advocate for genocide against Jews on your campus? And I think it’s safe to say. They they gave rather kind of bloodless tone deaf, very legalistic defenses of free speech, even when she was very explicitly asking, I’m talking about you know, the advocacy of genocide is that acceptable. And they were like, yeah. So on one level, you could say they were taking a pretty absolute as free speech level.

On the other hand, it was like, or they could have pushed back and saying, well, could you give me an example of what you are talking about? They could have been a little bit more precise than language, but but your thoughts about this, Will, and then I’ll I’ll give you my take on it.

Okay. So there are actual anti semite There are people like Nick Fuentes and Kanye West and what are, like, they would say anti Semitic things. And and

those are basically Matzis.

Yeah. Those are generally on the right or they’re, you know, dining with Donald Trump or whatever. Okay. And there are some people demonstrating on college campuses and saying stupid things about Hamas not under you know, recognizing the terrorism granted. Very bad.

What these college presidents did is none of that. Right? They didn’t advocate any anti semitism. They didn’t condone anti semitism. What they did was answer the way that professors answer questions.

Okay? These people are nerds, Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard. Is a nerd. Right? Liz McGill, the president of, like, departing president of Penn, a nerd.

These are professors. They’re being asked in a congressional hearing to issue a yes or no denunciation, and they’re responding with, well, it depends on the context. Right? And that explodes the political universe. We don’t talk about context.

People, this is what academics do. They talk about context. They wanna know the exact details. They have policies. We wanna be very careful about this.

They were giving these pre university presence, what they thought were careful cautious answers. And that was their political mistake because, apparently, in this situation, you’re not supposed to. The idea that Claudine Gay is anti Semitic is nuts. First of all, I recommend to anyone watch the interrogation of Claudine Gay by Elise Stefanic. Yeah.

At least Defonic does not open with anti Semitism. She opens with someone, what if someone on your campus calls for the mass murder of African Americans? Claudine Gay as a black woman.

Right.

And she says about the murder of African Americans, well, it depends on whether it crosses the line. So she is not responding with it’s not any animus about Jews. She’s being asked about her own people, and she’s saying, we’re gonna be very careful. This is the way nerds talk.

Well, okay. Okay. I see I I’m gonna make a a stronger defense that in many ways, I think they believed they were making a very powerful free speech defense that they were arguing about academic freedom the first amendment, etcetera. And that they believed they were making a principal defense of free speech. Number one, Right.

They were also making a legitimate distinction between speech and action. So for example, saying something is very different than acting on it when it moves to an assault or vandalism. So, and again, maybe that was part of the context. And these are legitimate distinctions. It is good to hear university presidents defend free speech It is good to hear them make those distinctions, which are not nerdy.

I think that they’re they’re fundamental between, you know, actions and thoughts. But the problem was not that they were anti Semitic. It’s that also there was just this screaming hypocrisy here. Can I read you what Andrew Sullivan wrote about this? Go for it because he was much more critical.

He says, the day the empress’ close fell off. In the hearings, Harvard president Gay actually said with a straight face, quote, we embrace a commitment to free expression even if used that are objectionable offensive hateful. Now, by the way, I would agree with that, and I would hope that that would be true. But then as Sullivan and many others have pointed out, this is the president. Whose university mandates that all students attend a title nine training session where they are told that Fatphobia insists heterosexual sexism or forms of violence and using the wrong pronouns constitutes abuse.

Okay. So these are university campuses. That have spent years now saying you are a safe space. And if you say these words or if you utter these things, you have offended someone and we are going to take action against you. And then suddenly it’s like, no.

No. No. When it comes to Jews, it’s all about context. I think that’s what offended people. And the Sullivan says, the critics who keep pointing out double standards when it comes to the inflammatory speech of pro Palestinian students misses the point.

These are not double standards. There is a single standard. It is fine to malign abuse and denigrate oppressors and forbidden to do so against the oppressed. Freedom of speech in the Ivy League extends exclusively to the voices of the oppressed. They are permitted to disrupt classes, deplatform or shout down controversial speakers, Hurl absurdities forced members of oppressor groups, I.

E. Jewish students and teachers in the latest case, interlock libraries and offices during classroom protests and blocked from classrooms. Jewish students have been assaulted at Harvard at Columbia at Columbia, at Hamhurst, and at, Tulane, assaults Bulwark students used to be rare. Such as the two thousand seventeen Mavet Middlebury that put Alison Stenger in a neck brace. But since ten seven, they’re intensifying.

If a member of an oppressor class says something edgy, it’s a form of violence. If a member of an oppressed class commits actual violence, it’s speech. To get that. So, you know, suddenly, the whole people who have been pushing this, these words are violence. Then now we’re like, when the violence takes place, well, maybe that speech and we need to do it.

So it goes on to say that is why many Harvard students instantly supported a fundamentalist terror cult that killed tortured systematically raped and kidnapped Jews just for being Jews in their own country. Because they have been taught, it is the only moral position to take. They’ve diligently read their friends’ fanon and must be puzzled over what the problem is because Palestinians are victims of a colonial white settler state in any violence they commit is thereby justified. Okay. So Jonathan Last makes the same point.

He says, look, I actually am totally in favor of this nuanced approach of the president. What offends me is that those same people have done so quick to punish microaggressions, including statements intended to be kind even if one person from a favorite group took offense. So he says, look, this double standard seems to be almost institutionalized antisemitism, which is we’re going to tell you all the things you cannot say and do except if it involves Jews. And I think that’s was where the outrage came. Right?

Come on, man. You know, Harvard is not the bastion of free speech. It’s only the bastion of free speech when it comes to ripping on Jews. That, I think, is the case.

So, first of all, I agree with Andrew here, and I very much agree with Jonathan Last and his larger points about Safetyism on campus than elsewhere. But I wanna clarify something here. I’m hearing in that two different versions of their argument. One is that this is specifically about Jews. That the Jews are being accepted from this general principle of protecting the safety of people and all that.

But the other is the much larger point that Andrew’s making there about the oppressor meant out. The if you’re the oppressors and here are the oppressed, and the Jews are colonists and the Palestinians are the, you know, native people and blah, So I think the latter is more accurate. It’s the hierarchy. And we talked about this before in terms of punching up. Right?

In the world view of a lot of people on the left, there are oppressors and they’re oppressed, and the rules are different. And so you can say things about Jews that you wouldn’t say about African Americans or Latinos or Muslims or Muslims or whatever. That is a general thing. And that that applies to white people to men. And so a lot of the wars between the left and the right are about whether there is whether it’s okay to punch up in a way that’s not okay to punch In other words, whether there should be a double standard.

But it’s law I think it my point is it’s bigger than Jews. It’s not just about Jews.

But this is expose this. Yeah. I mean, and dramatized it.

Yeah.

In other words, the problem is worse than this. It’s not just this. It’s actually broader. Is that what you’re saying?

But that fundamental it’s a different point, and it’s I think it goes to the question of how serious the anti Semitism is. I think it’s less I’m less concerned than other people are about that. And just to remind everybody, I’m Jewish. So, like, when I talk about this, I’m talking about my own, about my own people. Either way, Charlie, I agree that there is a kind of hypocrisy a double standard is being practiced either about Jews or about the so called oppressors versus oppressed.

But what I wanna do is not leverage this to say, well, we should protect the safety of everyone. We should fire university presidents who don’t say that the university should expel anyone who says, you know, from the river to the sea or something about Idifada. I wanna go the other way. I want to go at what Andrew’s talking about, and I want to reduce the degree of hysteria on college campuses, and I wanna loosen up the conversation about things that have been described as to, you know, fat shaming, to Islamophobic, to sexist, whatever That is a major problem to me. I think that college campuses have discouraged conversation about anything, and they have canceled people.

Right?

I think that absolutely right.

So I wanna loosen the the discussion all around, and I wanna start with anti Semitism because I’m Jewish. So I’m not talking about somebody else. I’m saying, I am open to hearing someone talk about intifada. When Elise says in that hearing that anyone who says uses the word intifada is calling for the extermination of Jews. I’m here to say, no.

That’s not true. Defata means different things to different people, and we can have a conversation about that. I wanna have the conversation.

Yeah. I think we’ll have a we’ll continue this particular conversation because I I think it just involves so many different issues including this this ongoing fight over, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion programs, and the kinds of things that they have been pushing for. Almost as, again, slight slight digression. I am sensing a massive backlash among young people to what I think that the left thought was sort of the inevitable progression. I think that they thought that the the arc of history was bending in a certain way and that they kind of had a free fire that that the universities were their place and that all of their doctrines were going to be well received I think there’s an entire generation of young people who are kinda rolling their eyes that things became too much.

And I but I do think that this has been the the flash point. And I think it’s opened up a lot of people’s eyes to this. And I don’t know where it’s going. I mean, there there are dangerous areas it could go. If in fact, it did lead universities in fact to backtrack even further on their commitment to free speech, that would be negative.

On the other hand, if you follow the Jonathan Heights approach, which is to say, okay, Let’s have a reevaluation of all of these things that have happened since twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen involving free speech. It could be positive. But I think right now, people’s passions are just too hot. Have you noticed will that when people are emotionally engaged and really, really angry, they are generally not open to nuanced arguments, what are the kinds of compromises and conversations that are necessary. If you notice that,

Right? Charlie Sykes be more confident that history is turning in a more libertarian direction when university presidents stop being fired over this stuff. The idea that the president of Penn lost her job over this says to me that the safetyists, not even the students, but the donors are getting their way.

One last topic of the time we have left, because I know you’ve written very, very extensively on the abortion issue, and that’s gonna be a huge issue in twenty twenty four. Rather, dramatic case down in Texas involving a woman who, has gone to court to say I need to have a, you know, permission to have an emergency abortion because of a particular medical condition I have. Mitt Romney was on, meet the press with Kristen Welker talking about this. And they and and they go through it. And then let’s just play this because it’s a very, very difficult issue.

Mitt Romney, obviously, is struggling with this like a lot of other, you know, pro life politicians, but I wanna get your take on the entire discussion an issue on the other side. So this is Mitt Romney on meet the press yesterday morning.

The state Supreme Court, as you know, put a hold on a lower court’s decision to allow Kate Hox to have what her doctors say would be a medically necessary and potentially life saving abortion. Now, Her fetus has been diagnosed with a fatal condition. And if she carries it to term, doctors say it could jeopardize her ability to have more children in the future, something that she says she very much wants. What is your reaction and should Kate Cox have the ability to terminate her pregnancy?

Well, I’m not gonna stand in for the courts. They’re gonna evaluate the evidence. I am pro life, but people like me who that are pro life also believe that when a woman’s life is in danger, the opportunity for an abortion should be apparent for her. So we’ll see what the court ultimately gets to, but recognize after the Supreme Court overturned V weighed. And the decision went back to the elected officials in the various states.

There are a lot of parameters and nuances that haven’t been sorted through yet. That’s gonna happen in Texas and other places and ultimately we’re gonna find a settled, understanding.

And as you’re indicating, you did support overturning Roe V Wade, but was this what you imagined when you supported Roe v Wade being overturned that a woman who’d been told by her doctors that she needs an abortion potentially to save her own life would be denied one?

Well, I think the question here will be whether or not in fact her life is risk. And if it’s is at risk, then I think under Texas law, although I’m not an expert in Texas law, under Texas law, she’ll be allowed to have an abortion. But each state’s gonna have to make this decision.

Alright, Will. This is a tangled web here.

This conversation just drove home to me, something that I really want pro life people to understand. I am pro choice. I don’t think there’s a contradiction between the two things. You can be morally opposed to abortion. You can believe most elective abortions shouldn’t happen that things should be done.

To make it possible for women not to have to get the abortion. Starting with contraception

Mhmm.

Setting that aside. It’s one thing to say that you are morally opposed to abortion, but when you do what has been done in Texas and other states. This is what happens. When you ban abortions, you end up with women in these marginal and often very scary situations. By marginal, I mean rare, but, like, This is a the situation where she’s not gonna be able to have a baby.

Her health is at risk. And Charlie Sykes is in the courts. This is the Supreme Court talking about some other court What the hell is going on that this is in the courts? But when you put this kind of issue into criminal law, this is the world you’re dealing with. And I would encourage everyone who is pro life.

Find something better than the criminal law to try to do what you can to reduce the number of abortions in this country because you’re gonna get police, you’re gonna get judges, prosecutors, you’re gonna get the state Supreme Court involved in this woman. And she’s in a medical situation. This should not be in the courts. This should not be in the legislature. That’s my appeal.

Well, I am pro life, and I agree with you completely. This is this is exactly where you do not wanna be using criminal law, you do not want this kind of a case being decided in this particular way. I don’t understand why in Texas, they they are fighting against this. So what is the principle that Ken Paxon and the Justice of the Texas Supreme Court are trying to uphold are they trying to say that under our law, we really can force this woman to go ahead and and give birth to this child, even though there are the medical circumstances. I think Mitt Romney answered that question.

You could tell it was it was uncomfortable and painfully answered that question about as as well as he could, which is, look, we have been saying that the life of a mother is an exception. And now we have a pretty clear case where the evidence suggests that, yes, this is one of those cases that we’ve been saying for forty years, we would exempt. And she’s having to go unbended knee to a judge to get permission to do this and has put her name on this lawsuit. The cost that women have to go through to go through something like this to have the publicity to have the notoriety to have the I mean, this is not easy stuff, Will. And if you’re at all concerned about any medical right of privacy or parental rights with the rights of an individual wanna talk about libertarian principles.

This is like the worst possible case. And so a smart life movement would not draw the line here at all.

Right? But to me, it’s a more fundamental problem. It’s the attempt to draw lines at all. Now, like, I think it’s fine for the law to say in general, you know, in late term abortion should be in relatively rare circumstances. But for decades, the pro life movement said, you know, the pro choice people have these health exceptions, and they’re so loosey goosey, you know, any woman can go in.

We need to have some strict rules. Right. Well, this Texas case is an example of what happens when you have a strict rule. So you’re arguing about whether is her life really at risk, except instead of that conversation happening, among doctors, which is where it should be happening, it’s happening in courts, and that’s what happens when you write this stuff into law.

You are making a very, very, very compelling case, because I think there was the belief that somehow you could use the law to, you know, make those distinctions And what you’re saying is here’s why the law is just a blunt instrument. And this should be decided by a group of consulting physicians in the privacy of the consulting with this woman, what are the risks, what are the options, And now it will be decided by non doctors, non family members, people in black robes which, again, you know, as part of the conservatives saying, you know, these fundamental decisions should not be made by people in Bulwark robes. Well, this is where we have it. These kinds of cases, I think, are are kind of nightmarish. And I I keep coming back to this point that the pro life movement had fifty years to prepare for post row.

And clearly did nothing to really prepare for. And I mean, not just dealing with these problems, like, okay. How are we gonna handle this? How are we gonna game this sort of thing out? How do we prevent this kind of scenario from taking place?

But then the whole infrastructure, which is not even part of a debate much now, which is that if you’re going to be a pro life movement post row, you better have some rather robust programs to help change hearts and minds and persuade young women that it is in their interest or that it is okay to go ahead and have babies, to be able to have more pro family, more pro child legislation and programs, the notion that the pro life movement could watch Roe go down At the same time, they are trying to stop the expansion of Medicaid. Guys, do you understand how those dots don’t connect? And To be fair, there have been a lot of people in the pro life who’ve been who’ve been saying this for a very, very long time that we cannot be just pro life up until the moment of birth. And then lose interest in the child and the mother after that. But that’s the practical reality.

And in all the time since Roe went down, Have you seen any major effort at the state or the federal level to say, okay. Now we live in pro life America. Right? In theory, what are we doing for those born babies and their moms. No.

I’m not seeing anything. No. A few white papers here and there, a couple of op ed pieces. Nothing. Again, Be careful what you wish for.

And I think the pro life movement really, should have thought about that more deeply. This is a real nightmare nightmare scenario. Will Thank you so much for joining me on a very, very busy Monday. I think this is gonna be the last Monday that you and I are gonna be together in twenty twenty three. So we have to take a deep breath, gird her to loins, see you on the other side.

See you on twenty twenty four, Will,

See you then, Charlie.

And thank you all for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. We will be back tomorrow, and we’ll do this all over again. Bohr contest is produced by Katie Cooper. And engineered and edited by Jason Brown.