Why Aren’t You Angrier? (with Chasten Buttigieg)

Welcome to the next level podcast. I’m your host to Miller. This week I had a special Pride Month chat with Chastin Buttigieg. His new young adult book, I have something to tell you. Is on shelves now.

And the check got a little more emotional than I expected. We do get into a bunch of politics, so let’s get right to it. But first, our friends at Assetown. Go nuggets. Hey, welcome back to a gay pride extravaganza edition of the next level podcast.

I’m here with Chastin Buttigieg. Got the new book. I have something to tell you, which I’ve been thumbing through the last couple days. It takes me a while to read. I’m kind of like Ralph Norman, the congress, man, you know.

He couldn’t read ninety nine pages in seventy two hours. I’m a slow reader. Chasset, how you doing, brother? Thanks for doing this.

Doing alright. How are you?

Doing great. I I was really excited about one particular thing to ask you about, and I I do feel like we have to start here. You’re among never Trump apostates at the Bulwark? Sim, you know, and so I was excited to to learn that we have more than being gay dads in common. We also had some adornment on our vehicles in common.

You had a George w Bush sticker on your car, and so my first question is a two parter. Was it the cool white w? Or was it the George w Bush rectangle blue one? And what do you love most about George w Bush?

Think it was the oval but

Oh, the oval. Yeah. The cool oval. Yeah. That’s right.

In that day, I, you know, was not a very politically astute student and growing up in conservative Northern Michigan, putting the w on my car as I write in the book was more about symbling to other students to leave me alone and it just seemed like that was the the cool thing to do but also like the norm. And if you were like a good Christian country boy, then you would support w, so I was at that time trying to blend in. And

Got it. You didn’t come to appreciate anything, you know, his Spanglish or his painting or

I can’t say I was really paying attention to him at that at that time in my life.

Well, maybe by the end, you’ll come up with something that you like about George w Bush. There’s some toots and boots when it comes to the Bush presidency I’d have to admit. Wanna talk about the book. We we usually flip this and do book stuff at the end of politics at the start, but we’ll have plenty of politics to get to. And so I wanted to just kind of get from you like what was the impetus from this originally?

Was it related to having kids or it happened before? Was it based on conversation? You had from the campaign last time? Like, where where did it stem from?

Oh, two years ago and I started writing it. It was just the idea of writing something I wish I could travel back in time and hand my younger self. I had no idea that the political landscape would be what it is today. And also my kids were born halfway through the writing process. That sort of made writing harder in the sense of finding time to actually do it but easier in that, you know, I felt like everything came into focus so much in life made more sense and I was thinking about, you know, what words would comfort them.

When they grow up and you know whether this book would mean something to them if they were to read it.

I’m wondering if you have had the similar experience style I have. My kids are older, is five. And when I started reading kids’ books to her, which I guess was probably happening for you, pretty far into the writing process. It was pretty noticeable to me. You know, I was never one to like obsess over representation.

I was never stoltzerez presentation, but it was never something that I I really felt like I had a deep appreciation for until I started reading kids’ books to Toulouse and it was like, impossible to find a kid’s book to read her that doesn’t have a mom. And nothing wrong with moms, right? But it does gonna add a little extra weight to it. Now I know this is a young adult book, but I’m just wondering, you know, how that experience of writing this and wanting to tell a story that young adults have and and reading books to your now two year olds, you know how that kind of played off each other.

Yo, first of all I hope that this book means something to to every young person. You know, middle school is tough as it is, so I hope that, you know, every middle schooler or high schooler is hardened by the message that it does get better and hopefully for LGBTQ students, you know, they see somebody who’s been through it and who was there to offer a comforting word. This is why just telling stories matters, I don’t want my book to be the only book. I want there to be thousands of other books like it so that maybe a young person who doesn’t see themself in my story will see them their story in somebody else’s. And when it comes to the children’s book, I completely agree.

You know, we were gifted so many books when the kids were born and I love a bookstore, so I’m always buying kids’ books. But it is really hard to find a story with two dads or just about a dad and that the story isn’t focused on the fact there might be two dads or two moms or that, you know, it’s like every family’s different, every family’s great, not all families look the same. I don’t want the story to be the fact that we’re, you know, quote unquote different. I just want my kids to see their family, so actually already started noodling on a children’s book and I hope that that’s the next one.

I hope you have more success for me. I tried to sell a children’s book like this and failed. I was like, I just wanna sell a kid’s book that has two dads where there’s no trauma.

And they’re like, no trauma. Gross. Get out of hand. Yeah.

It’s like the kid just eats cream and they go to the park together and they have normal kid problems, way to the, you know, friends at school and Yeah.

What the what’s the kid bully though? Yeah.

I was a boy because they’re dads or they — Yeah. — feel really different and get depressed about it or, you know, do they have to relitigate the AIDS crisis? Like, no. You know, we just can we just live? You’ve done a a handful of these.

I wanted to kind of hit on some different turf. And so I went to the Pete Buttigieg Reddit page. Okay. I’m getting sick of Elon Musk Twitter. I know.

Sorry to trigger you. So I’m trying to find alternate things for my social media addiction. So we have a vibrant Bulwark Reddit. I went to the Pete Buttiges red And I was like, you guys, I’m sure I’ve listened to all the Chastan’s interviews. So what would you ask them?

And I got one really good one that one to ask you from the comments and

This is so interesting to me. I do not Reddit at all. So I don’t know what it is like.

Yeah. It’s in the Reddit world. The Pete Buttigieg Reddit is like, It’s fan girl, Stan culture, you know, they love you all. So that is a positive space, maybe a little creepy. For you, but you shouldn’t be shy about visiting.

The Bull of credit is also pretty nice though they usually attack us from the left, you know, lefties that aren’t happy with us this fight though, you know, we’re doing our best out here. But anyway, this this questioner said, as a teacher and a parent, she worries about how much she tells kids about the ugliness of the world, to destroy their optimism. Kind of related to this point about the trauma in the other books. However, we also need to prepare an armor of them for what’s happening in the world and so she was wondering how you balance that both in writing this book and thinking about this in parenting, right? How to how to balance kind of acknowledging the ugliness while also you know, not letting kids be kids.

Yeah. I thought about this a lot and, you know, I know we joked about queer trauma, but so much of what I was thinking about is writing the book is how much do you include and how much do you gloss over and how much do you you know dive into. And so much of my story was tough. Those first twenty some years were really hard and I spent eighteen years in the closet and especially the adult book really dives into some of these subjects that I was told not to talk about in politics. And at the same time when you’re writing a y a book, I don’t want students to to not have the skills and the tools necessary to to defend themselves in the future.

And so much of what I wrote about was truly wishing that I had those skills when I was younger. What did I want younger me to know? And so I pepper in all these little bits of advice or anecdotes, you know, when the bully was being really bad on the back of the bus and the things that they would say and how it made me feel but also now with this hindsight, I wish that I could just say the one sentence I knew would have disarmed them, you know. And giving them like little little snippets of advice without just like glossing over the fact that there are truly awful people and people who will focus on, you know, the minuscule things and people who will, you know, only try to tear you down. But the things that we focus on, you know, we pay attention to what you pay attention to.

Right? That’s a big lesson that it took me a long time to learn. The places that I spend so much time in and the people I give so much credit or weight, you know, I don’t have to care about their words if I choose to not care. Right? Yeah.

There’s a lot in there, especially about mental health and bullying and the things that I wish younger Chasten would have known. And as a teacher, you do have to make a decision about how much ugliness do you focus on? Because if you only focus on all of the, you know, atrocities of the world and all of the ugliness, it’s always there if you go hunting for it. So there’s also great lessons to be taught in all of the goodness that comes out of people just doing the work and I think that directly correlates to life in Washington as well.

I worry about that with this gen z crowd especially. Like this their anxiety feels. Maybe it’s just perception. It’s hard to know. I don’t know what kind of feedback have you gotten from actual teens that you know have been exposed to the book?

Like are you sensing that too that they have this kind of anxiety? Are you sensing that they that some of this stuff wasn’t relevant to them? Because, you know, they’re living in a gay paradise or you know what what what kind of feedback have you got?

Yeah. There are some echoes of, you know, my younger years and there’s some things that are new. I didn’t have TikTok and Twitter and Instagram when I was their age. And I didn’t go home at the end of the day and like log on to social media and see what everyone was saying about me or just have the opportunity to see other people debate my humanity in a way that is always in their face, should they go looking for it? Some of the young people I meet, one, they’re just fed up with politicians naturally, you know, they have some of the similar experiences where you see people focusing on your humanity and your dignity and not only talking about it but trying their very best to pass legislation.

That dehumanizes you, strips you from the right to even receiving things like gender affirming care. And that’s terrifying for young people. But again, they have things that I didn’t have to worry about now. And so some of the people that I’m so grateful for needing along the way both on the campaign and while I’m on book tour are the people that are providing just community and space, especially for some of these young people who had to run away from home. Yeah.

And lost their family and the only community they’re getting is at a community center or a non profit organization and I didn’t have those things when I was younger because people were so terrified to even talk about gay people. So I think there’s that that balance of progress and regression and the fact that some of these places exist now is great, but you still have kids who have to run away from home and leave everything behind. To go find them.

Yeah. That last group, one of my obsessions during Pete’s campaign was writing about like this like having been a gay Republican like I felt like I’d sight into a world that like wasn’t very well represented in the media, which is like red state gays, you know, and red community gays. And I heard And I’m sure you have dozens of stories about this. But even just from writing about it and the Bulwark like I have probably ten a dozen people that wrote to me and was like, yes, this resonated with me, like, to have a gay couple, you know, be campaigning. I didn’t know any gay married people in my life.

Right? Like the only gay people I knew were stereotyped, you know, everyone in my community was hostile to it at least I perceived they were hostile to it and maybe, you know, maybe at times I was projecting. But I think that as much as there has been progress, those pockets like still very much exist and and it seems to me that they’ve been hardening. Since the presidential game fan in the last five years, frankly. And like the hostility’s been growing Ron DeSantis just did that experience on the campaign you know, play a part in the book.

Do you have any anecdotes from either the campaign time or since writing the book that that’s particularly hit home with you?

Yeah. I mean, anytime I go to an event or even right now in the book tour, I always just tell myself like all it takes is one. All it takes is one person. To make it totally worth it and it never fails. There is always one person at an event who tells a story or asks a question or frames it in a way.

That reminds you of how important just making space for them is and how important existing openly and proudly is. That you can wash away all of the other stuff that you’ve done with your life and the fact that you are proud to be who you are, and you are open about your love and your family and your fatherhood, that means something to somebody. I got to experience that almost every day on the campaign. It wasn’t the noise on Twitter, social media, and it wasn’t commentary from both the left and the right about whether or not I was gay enough or too gay, you know, whether there was too much of a focus on the fact that we were gay in the campaign. It was all just chatter.

It’s just noise, you know, people who get paid to make noise. And then you meet this kid who, you know, just this young person. I remember meeting a freshman in college in the central valley in California who said, I think we live the same life like I ran away from my parents, I came out when I was eighteen, I worked at Starbucks, put myself through community college, you know, like trying to put themselves through community college and had all of these parallels and it was just the fact that I was there was enough for them, you know? And that is still humbling when I have those experiences. That’s what truly matters, you know?

Because I didn’t have any of that when I was younger. I didn’t have any role models. And that’s pretty cool that we get to grow up to be the people we wish would have had.

No, man. That’s absolutely cool. And I I was gonna say this for later because it’s relevant. We’re gonna have plenty of time to talk about the terrible Republicans and what they’re doing right now politically. But just really quick first like as we’re reminiscing about that.

There were people like talk about, oh, there’s too much folks on him being gay. Thing that was most frustrating to me during that campaign was not the hateful shit from the people that I used to deal with on the right because I knew that was coming. This blindness to the media when you guys win Iowa basically, Taiwan Iowa, a gay man wins the Iowa caucus. And it was like, I was on morning Joe the next day and it was like, they were barely even mentioned, you know, they’re like moving on to the hamster, they weren’t even talking about it. I’m like, this is insane.

Like, I never even imagined growing up, the possibility that somebody could be gay and could win the Iowa caucus. Like, it was too insane to even imagine as possible And you guys are just glossing over it because in your little media communities like that’s common, it’s a norm. And that was frustrating and and having people from the left, then nitpick can be like, well, you know, he’s not gay enough. He came out too late. He’s wears khakis, Corta McKenzie.

Like all that shit just had to be gob smacking to you. Right? Or was it even possible to was there just so much noise? It was hard to process? Like, what were you thinking about all that from people that were more on your quote unquote side?

Yeah, I think you will not survive presidential politics if you’re wrapped up in everyone else’s opinion of yourself. But truly, that’s not the political answer like it’ll crush you. If every night you’re going to bed and you’re surfing the internet wondering whether or not you did a good job being yourself. And for me, I had to make a conscious decision early on in the campaign, either I’m going to be myself or I’m going to go home and disappear. Because if you don’t know who you are and what you stand for and why you’re there, it will destroy you.

And so that that debate is just chatter, you know? Again, it’s people who one, I think there’s an element of truth some of the things that people were saying like I don’t want to be the gay for everybody. I want everyone to be able to exist in this world however they want to exist and I don’t wanna carry the banner for an entire community because I am not the entire community. I want everyone’s voice and story to matter. Like I can’t speak for every letter of the acronym because I am just one letter and I want at the same time every single person in my community to feel the same like warmth of love and acceptance in community and justice that everyone else feels.

But at the end of the day, hearing people say like, it’s not enough, it’s too much, I’m just me, I’m just being me, you know, and I hope that’s enough.

That’s really gracious. Of you, Chasten. But, I mean, was there not a moment where you just were, like, wanting to stand up and be like, is this is this not enough for you people? Like, how is this not a fucking enough you people. It’s it’s insane.

Like, you had to wanna pinch yourself back. This is insane that this is even a thing.

Sure. But like acknowledging that insanity and acknowledging that people get paid to write that stuff and they get paid to say it or that people just like find joy in piling on to the nonsense online like if I were to invest so much energy into like meeting their expectations of identity or queerness, it would destroy you and so like, yeah, you can always like, look at it, laugh at it, sometimes roll your eyes at it, you know, like, I remember being on the cover of time magazine and that to me was so emotional that I got to grow up to not only like be on the cover of time magazine, but be standing next to my husband and my husband who was running for president. Never, in a million years, what younger chess and have believed that was in in store for him. And I remember some people being really upset that we were wearing chinos or like button ups and and that to me was just so silly because to me I could celebrate that existence. I could celebrate where I was and what I was doing and hope that, you know, it was enough.

But I can recognize the same time It gets really loud out there. Yeah. And some people just like they get paid to make it loud. So

I mean, I love a mesh tank top as much as the god. But, you know, I mean, I don’t think we necessarily need our first gentleman of transportation to be in a midriff mesh tank top just to justify his queerness.

Terrible for mosquitoes, Tim.

It is it is my final instinct on this. I I just it’s worth sitting on for a second. I don’t I wasn’t on my prepared question, so I figure out how to spit it out. But but I was doing my vows with my husband. I used to phrase I I said that I, you know, people say like this is beyond our wildest imaginations like that’s something that you say.

But like that was literally true for me. Right? Like as a teenager, I literally it did not Like it really didn’t cross my mind that it was possible that I was gonna have like a wedding with my parents there and my Catholic cousins and that like I’d have a baby with me. Even in the best case scenario, right? Like it was beyond it.

That is true for you like times a hundred. Right? Like like the best case scenario you possibly could have imagined as a teen was what?

Suriving? Right. I mean, I really did think in high school, there were two options, you know. One was to no longer be here and two was to run away. But I was never never anticipating that there would be a wedding or twins, you know?

Like, I I thought those were my two options when I ran from home. And I really was convinced that for a while, it just wasn’t gonna work out. So that’s what I’m talking about when When I’m just focused on being me like every pride month, that’s just an opportunity to celebrate the fact that I’m still here. I try to stay really focused on that. And the fact that that kid who was, you know, sleeping on friend’s couches and in the back of his car and pretty convinced that nothing was gonna add up gets to be this guy and, you know, whether that’s writing the book or just shopping at Target and someone sees you and is like, moved to tears because you’re there is that’s wild.

It truly is beyond your wild imagination. Right? Your wildest dreams that somehow I’m still here and I have all of these great things going for me.

Well, we’ve got everybody’s feelings going, let’s not get into the dark stuff Uh-oh. We’re at pride month. Things aren’t great. I thought we were on this inexorable papacy Obama line. You know, the arc of history.

We’re I thought we were on an inexorable path towards like fabulousness, right? And and it appears like we’re not. I wanna get your opinion on all of this stuff. It feels like probably the most fraught Pride month. In a while.

Yeah. I hope that I’m wrong about that, but I’m worried about violence. I’m worried about not the treatment of performers, particularly drag performers, and other letters in in the alphabet. I wanna start with you first about the education stuff — Yeah. — since you’re a teacher and and you ended that in your books.

So I just moved to Louisiana. They are passing a don’t say gay replica here. That’s actually kinda worse than the Florida don’t say gay one. That kind of includes the don’t ask don’t tell for teachers’ element of it, essentially. And I’m lucky enough and privileged enough that like my kid is gonna go to private school in New Orleans.

So it’s not really a problem in my personal life. That it is a real problem for people in a lot of other parts of the state and so it’s something I’m very riled up about. And so I’m wondering just from an educator’s perspective like, you know, there can be a political perspective of this, you know, we can be pundits, but just like as a teacher, What would your reaction have been? You know, if you go in one school year and the new rule is you can’t mention your partner you can’t talk to the students about anything related to sexuality and gender identity and practically it’s preposterous and an affront to teachers. In my opinion, but talk about from your experience.

So if you’re a teacher in Louisiana and you’re making high thirties, low forties, freshly out of college, what is convincing you to stay in Louisiana? Outside of the fact that some people don’t have the privilege of leaving and some people are caretakers and some people have families and some people don’t have the ability to leave the state. Just as a state, what are you doing to recruit the best teachers possible? And so the first thing that comes to mind every time I get asked a question about this is one, don’t say the words you’re not supposed to say on podcasts and two.

Say the words, Jira. This is the this is the next level podcast. We I’m gonna fucking calm cunts if you don’t, so anyway, continue.

It’s it is mind boggling. This is the stuff that they’re focused on. And if you have ever had a roundtable with teachers, which I’m guessing these people have not, especially on the campaign I did round tables non stop with teachers, and the things that teachers need right now are support, especially when it comes to basic necessities in the classroom, like why are we asking people to donate pencils at the checkout at the grocery store to their local school district and not just supplying the basic needs. And this is the party that says that they care about mental health, it’s not guns, it’s mental health. Show me your funding.

Show me your budget. Show me how you’re increasing mental health support services. In schools, why are we stripping the arts from public schools? I think those are the vehicles for life skills like empathy and teamwork and active listening and community and leadership. Anyway, all of these things that schools could be benefiting from.

And we’re focused on making sure that teachers don’t mention that they have a husband or a wife, If you were a teacher just looking for a place to land who had the ability and the privilege to pack up and go wherever you wanted, something like that passes in Louisiana, I’m gonna pass on Louisiana. It’s ridiculous. It’s not only bad for students and bad for teachers. It’s it’s bad for jobs. It’s bad for the state.

Yeah. The thing about all of this, I’m sure we’re gonna get into it. The thing about like all of this, waves hands dramatically, is that it’s lazy. It requires no work. Hate is so much easier than doing the work.

So these people don’t wanna roll up their sleeves. They don’t wanna they don’t wanna improve education. You wanna improve education. I’m sure you’re not gonna start with, well, let’s make sure teachers don’t mention who they’re married to. Are you kidding me?

For thirteen years, every teacher that I had had a picture of their spouse on their desk and every book I read had straight characters and look at look at me. Not straight.

You want grooms, Chasten? Nobody is grooming you in Traverse City.

Apparently, they tried their best and I have something to say about that too. But The fact that this is what they’re focused on, it just requires no attention. It’s like copy and paste bills all across the country, super hateful, stokes the base, they fundraise off of it, they get all their clicks off of it, and it does nothing to improve anybody’s lives. And that is so shameful, not because it attacks a vulnerable community, but because these are people who were elected into office to make people’s lives better and safer. And they’re just sitting there acting like a bunch of playground bullies.

My other question when I haven’t think about this is, like, have any of these people met a fucking kid before? Like, what do they expect teachers to do. You know, I mean, my just tiny little narrow experience, right? It’s like Toulouse just goes to a new school. Just started a month ago.

We walked into the school, two white guys. Five year olds are gonna ask questions about that. You know, like, five year olds are like, that’s what I do wanna know. Six graders who are trying to, like, navigate what’s happening in the world are gonna ask trusted teachers about stuff. You know, the kinds of students that you had, I’m sure came to you with trusted questions, like what?

Like the government now, the free speech party, the freedom party wants the government now to like, tell the teachers how they can answer the question of like, why does this kid have two parents? Or, you know, why does this kid have two dads rather? Or you know, how can I deal with these feelings I’m having? I mean it’s preposterous.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. These people are more scared of a kid learning that you and I are dads or that we have a husband rather than the fact that you’re more likely to get killed by a gun in school in this country. Just a fact, that’s the data.

And if that doesn’t scare them into doing something, again, shameful, wrong side of history. I taught seventh and eighth grade. And you are absolutely correct in asking if any of these people have actually met a middle school. Right. Because I promise you, these kids they are not like the innocent little bundles of fragility that you think they are.

Like they are very much attuned to what is going on in the world. And I think about that teacher in Florida.

Florida, she was showing strange world.

Yes. The distance and now her kids are getting pulled out of class and interrogated and have to answer questions about their teacher showing this movie, what do you think is gonna stick with those kids more? I was interrogated in what grade is it sixth grade and my teacher lost her job because she showed a Disney movie. In the United States of America, are you kidding me? That is what’s gonna stick with them.

And I can’t imagine what my students would have thought. Actually, I can. If one day I came in and had to take the picture of Pete off of, you know, the bookshelf behind my desk. Those kids would have walked out of school. And that’s the thing I see amongst young people when I’m meeting them on the book tour, when I just meet them in everyday life, they’re ready to burn it all down because the adults in the room aren’t acting like adults, and they’re focused on things that would get these kids in trouble on the playground.

You said you had more to say on the groomer thing was on my list, but you piqued my interest. So now I wanna put a quarter in the machine just go. And obviously, there’s probably something you had to worry about at some point, right, and your teacher, right, being a gay teacher worried that some parent was gonna come in and say that whatever,

I didn’t get a job because of who I was married to. I know what it is like to have to look over your shoulder and wonder whether or not it’s okay to be yourself where you’re teaching. The last thing I’m focused on is talking especially when you’re, you know, dating and then married to the mayor. Like the last thing you want to talk about being married to me. Yeah.

Everybody wants to talk about that. And like, I just want to do my job. Like this is what I went to graduate school for. To focus on being a good teacher and do the work and, you know, nobody had an issue growing up. The movies and the shows we were watching, the books we were reading, the things we were learning in school.

And now like I just said, you have song about rainbows and empathy Ron DeSantis are twisting themselves into knots at the idea of their kid being just a little bit more empathetic and accepting. And The thing about the book bands is just, again, it’s lazy. It’s a non issue. I feel like in our generation read this story about a fourteen and a fifteen year old. Falling in love in one day and getting married and consummating that marriage offstage and then killing themselves out of love.

Romeo and Juliet. Nobody was like protesting at the city hall or at the school board meetings because of this story, but also because we just trust teachers to do the job.

I’ve been dying to ask Ron DeSantis about the princess and the frog. I mean, like animal, human love. Despicable.

But also, there’s a hooters one mile down the road from the governor’s mansion in Florida, and nobody’s got a problem with that, you know?

Obviously most of these people are lazy assholes, so I think we can agree to that. What do you say to like? I’ve heard from a couple of parents who are good natured people who are concerned that there is a fattishness happening in schools about gender identity, sexualities, you know, there’s of new sexualities propping up every day that I’ve never even heard of. I think I’m pretty I try to be pretty hip to the game. Is there anything that you ever that you hear that’s somebody’s been in classrooms, we feel like there’s maybe a concern that something’s going too far the other direction.

No. And you know, we all wanted to be straight when we were younger and look what happened to us. We wanted to be straight when it would keep us alive or keep us from getting stuffed into a locker or prevent our faces from getting smashed into the cement outside the school. I wanted to be straight so desperately, look what happened to me. It’s not a fad, even though maybe that’s something you want.

It doesn’t change who you are, and more people having rights and more people feeling comfortable to be themselves in this country doesn’t hurt anybody else. So that’s the thing that I have heard from like Ropox the country we’re like, but don’t you feel like it’s a fad. I mean, look at the data like Gen Z, they identify as LGBTQ, you know, so much more than every previous generation. Well yeah because that’s the art of making it better for everybody, more people have the ability to come out of the closet or to be themselves, or to ask a question when I was getting stuffed into a locker in high school, I didn’t even think I could go to the principal’s office and say like you know someone just called me the Esler and shoved me into the locker because I thought maybe the principal thought I wasn’t the yesler too. Right.

So if some kid has the ability to ask a question or is just wondering about how the world works or where their place is in it. Feel like we should all just be happy that they’re asking the question and not doing the other thing that all of the mental health data in this country shows us we should be focused on making. They’re just making it better for young people.

Yeah. Wanting desperately to be straight definitely resonates with me. I did have all the mental gymnastics I could possible to make that happen and that was a fail. Don’t even know what my fucking question is about the Drag bands. They’re so ridiculous.

I guess I’m interested, I assume, maybe this is wrong that because you’ve written this book and you’re on the cover of Out, blah blah blah. You’re, you know, gay influencer now whether you wanted to be or not. Like, you have dialogue with people in the drag community and we have these pride celebrations happening in a lot of states where drag is banned and and I think that that we’re, you know, staring down the barrel of conflict here over couple weeks and I hope I’m I’m wrong about that. But I’m just wondering what your sense is, you know, for the risks and the vibe and in that part of the community.

Yeah. Safety comes first for everything, you know, trying to decide if it’s the right time to come out, your safety comes first, trying to decide if it is okay to hold your husband’s hand when you walk down the sidewalk. You know, we should always be putting our safety first and unfortunately we still live in a time where we have to ask ourselves those questions. I mean, the drag bands are ridiculous because, again, it’s just something to stoke fear and debate. And if straight people need a couple examples of things that they do that might be questionable, we can come up with it.

But again, I don’t think Drag is questionable. Like I’m a parent and I know what it’s like to make the decision of whether or not I want to take my kid somewhere. No one tells me I have to do it. I’m the parent. I get to decide.

Whether or not I want to go to story hour or whether

Beyond’s rights movement is a little mixed has some mixed messages on that front. It seems like to me.

It does. But this is the thing, if you are gonna ban drag but you’re not gonna make hooters eighteen and up. Then you’re you’re just telling on yourself.

You’ve the fuck out of here.

And that’s like the drag queen down the street from our house who performs here on Capitol Hill, Tara Hut, is like, missus Rogers, you know? It’s like the it couldn’t be more wholesome and hilarious. It’s it’s just funny. And there’s nothing sexual about it, but this is the thing these people protest outside every weekend because they’re convinced that Inside, you know, this person in like cat eye glasses and like your fifth grade teacher, you know, like this She’s literally miss frizzle. That’s what she looks like.

Like, they’re convinced that’s the thing that we should all be focusing our time and energy on. And it’s just a disgusting imbalance of priority because if they truly cared about keeping kids safe in alive, they’d lift a finger. On gun violence. And every time I say this, there’s always someone online who’s like, what a tired talking point. Are you kidding me?

I’m the teacher who worked in a classroom where three out of the walls were windows. I was on the safety committee. I had to walk around the school and check the doors every morning. I had to run the lockdown drills. I know what it is like to terrify a kid with an anxiety attack over the conversation about the fact that there are some people in this country who grab weapons of war and come into schools and murder children with them.

That is more terrifying.

Where are you on those mass shooter drills? I can’t I think I’ve I’m against them, but that might that’s a comfortable thing to say as somebody who’s not Who’s that? Doesn’t have to work into school? Where do you land on that?

I think you have to have the conversation. Because at the same time like you have to be prepared, but at this is the thing. It’s it’s too nuanced to do in a podcast, but this is why we have committees we have conversations and we involve parents and, you know, mental health counselors But there is nothing like saying hey, by the way, this morning we’re not gonna be doing our lesson and we’re gonna be talking about the fact that we all won’t fit in the closet.

Well, it’s part of the kitty litter boxes. Oh, Jesus him, you know? There isn’t a brainwashed. I want your reaction to two Republican politicians and we’re gonna get to rapid fire questions. The first one is Ted Cruz came out said that he doesn’t think the gay people should be murdered.

Are you impressed with Ted’s bold position against the Uganda law about murdering homosexuals?

I’ll take any voice but, you know, that’s that’s the bare minimum but great. Congrats for being on the right side of history on that issue. Go into his mentions though.

Oh yeah. And including the quote tweet from the pastor that gave Ron DeSantis invocation came out pro gay murder which is Will be interesting to see if he’s still on the trail with Ron. I I’m among gonna bet yes. You write in the book about you kind of meditate about, you know, masculinity too as much as sexuality and kind of norms and fitting in. There is a leader in the conversation on masculinity right now in Washington named Josh Holly.

I’m just kind of wondering what about his book Manhood. The masculine virtues American needs has impressed you the most.

Would you call him a leader?

It’s a senator.

I don’t know if I would call him a leader. You know, congrats on the book deal. But there is a virtue of masculinity. I think people assume that just masculinity is tied up in the word strength, and I think senator Holly has displayed his idea of strength. And a very viral video of him running away from the people that he incited.

And I am terrified of the future where my kids will reflect on my care. In my actions. Whether I say an unkind word or what I do as a a leader and inciting people to overturn democracy and it’s shameful enough and then you run away from them.

It is crazy. What do these people think they’re gonna kids are gonna think of them? I think about this like they’re gonna be sixteen and look at pictures of the capital on fire with confederate flags and people in Nazi shirts. And they’re gonna be like, you were on the side of these people? Like like they’re not gonna care about the nuance.

My daughter is already so precocious. I can just tell she’s gonna steamroll both of us and I can just imagine your kid being like, So you wanted them to overthrow the government, why’d you run away from them? You know? There’s your question. Maybe you should answer that question before you write a book.

Yeah. I think it’s fair to be concerned, you know, and as you write eloquently in your book about young people who are trying to figure out their who their true selves are. And and not wanting to be put in a box and wanting to like fucking wearing heels and also going fishing and like that’s okay and that’s an okay way to be a man. I didn’t go also a fair concern that like sometimes really athletically focused young men are into like trucks and stuff kind of get put in a box Right? And aren’t nurtured and validated in the ways that the, like, more bookish kids are.

And I think that you can be concerned about both those things at the same time. And yet, it feels like these assholes, you know like Josh Holly who are obsessed with masculinity are like only focused on protecting the feelings of that one narrow segment of you know, model of what it means to be a young man.

Yeah, maybe. But I love seeing the world through the eyes of my kids as I’m sure you have experienced. And my son is so curious and independent. And I think constantly about the types people that they will become when they grow up. And right now, he’s only two and I keep hoping that he stays this curious.

And kind. He waives at everybody in the stroller. And he says, thank you. Even when he’s crying, like I’ll hand him his dinner when he’s overtired. It’s here’s your dinner and he’ll, you know, say thank you through his years.

I want him to be that grateful and kind and compassionate in curious when he grows up and if he is all of those things, it doesn’t make him any less of a man than the other kid who loves heavy machinery and playing football.

And by the way, there are people that like heavy machinery and play football who are kind and generous. And is that right?

Yes. Yes. You can be both. Yeah. And whether you are on the football team or you like lifting weights or whether you want to dance or just study mathematics.

I’m going to love you just the same, and here’s the thing about being a parent. If you’re not willing to love your kid unconditionally, don’t become a parent because I am here to help them become the people that they’re already going to become. Through guidance and love and advice. And my job isn’t to make my son want to be a football player or lift the heavy weights, it’s to make him to be sure that he is kind and compassionate and curious and empathetic and and humble whether he likes the heavy machinery or he wants to bury his nose in books. That is my job as a parent.

So I was covering. I was doing the circus last fall and I was covering the Arizona thing.

Thing is a good way to describe it.

Yeah, Blake Masters is up on stage, just like going in at Pete over paternity leave. You know, going in on them. And next to him on stage is Rick Renell. Behind him, Rick and I was a gay appointee of Donald Trump. And I know Rick a little bit.

To, I think, our mutual displeasure. And what up to him afterwards? I’m just like, Rick, like, no cameras, no off the record like, will you just tell Blake to stop that? I mean, like, how can you be running a pro family campaign? How can you even say you’re for the family and then be like, oh, at the same time, I’m gonna chastise somebody who is spending time with their kids in the NICU or one kid because they were born with their preemie.

And they got so defensive of it and so up in arms and so personal that it just I should have been able to believe it but, you know, they continue to surprise and just how debase they can be. And the next went to the next stop and they did the same thing again and it’s this crowd pleaser. It’s just like that has just got to like it filled me with such rage. How do you not let that just consume you with rage?

Like we talked about before,

Sorry. I’m asking you the same question. Why Why don’t you matter? Why don’t you matter at the libs who aren’t I think Pete’s too straight. Why don’t you mad up like masters?

I’m mad you. Why aren’t you madder, Chastin?

Well I appreciate that but I look at my son on a ventilator and I look at the opinions of someone blake Masters and I know exactly where I need to be and who I need to be. And whether or not those men can empathize with the feeling of watching your kid fight for their life or not is not my concern. My concern was whether the numbers on the monitors were getting better or not worse. And whether, you know, my less than ten pound son on a breathing tube was gonna live. And if somebody in politics wants to make that a crowd pleaser, great.

Congratulations. You got your crowd pleaser, but I know who I am. At the end of the day. I know who my husband is at the end of the day and being there at the bedside of your kid when he’s fighting for his life, is the right place to be. And this is the thing about book bans, drag queens, beer bottles, you know, and I guess paternity leave.

They just want to talk about something else because they have nothing to show for it. They have nothing to offer, I feel like so much of politics is about who you’re for and what you’re for and not who you’re against, and so much of everything on the right right now is what they’re against. Let’s talk about M and M’s, Let’s talk about Disney. Let’s talk about beer bottles. Let’s talk about drag queens.

Let’s talk about books. Let’s talk about teachers. Let’s talk about trans people. What are you offering people? Besides a very very narrow hate filled view of the world, and I believe in a politics that is big hearted and inclusive and if someone wants to make a punchline out of being next to your kid in the hospital, I think it just tells everybody who you are as a politician and, you know, at the end of the day like I said, I just get to go to bed knowing that the the best thing I can do is just be me and the best thing for Gus was to be at his bedside.

That’s lovely. Let’s get to rapid fire and get you out of here. Rapid fire. You ready?

Oh God. Alright.

I know. I trust me. I listened to your I listened to your rapid fire effort with John Lovett, and I don’t I don’t know that it was just kinda it was was tough. So I’m I’m hoping we can do better. It was rocky for both of you.

One thing you’ve changed your mind on is a grown up. Everyone gets this.

Oh, I totally went to Target like unshowered baseball hat jeans t shirt this morning after daycare drop off. I just feel like when you’re a parent, like the fact that I’m out is good enough, you know.

Got it. That’s it. That’s what you as a grown up, you’ve learned that you can just you’re like in your George Castanza era. Like I’ll just wear sweatpants if I have to. No big deal.

I’ve even gotten over like the stress of like spotted in POLITico like Chasen Buttigieg looking like a lump of shit in Target, you know. Like I have groceries to get and I didn’t get to shout outs morning because the babies are up at five thirty.

So I love that. Your favorite RuPaul’s Dragway, Queen.

I’m a big fan of Trixie and Katia’s stuff. And also trixie, rural Wisconsin, I feel like we’ve got that Midwestern thing going on.

They’re likable.

Yeah. I forgot you

was Wisconsin. You’re LGBTQ, Mount Rushmore. Mount Rush are most influential, LGBTQ IA, whatever other letters you want plus Mount Rushmore.

This is tough.

It is tough.

Have you asked other people this question before?

Go go from the heart.

Oh, no.

I have. And and and I haven’t gotten anyone that I like yet.

So

I’m hoping that you’re gonna be the one set. Some people panic.

It’s like RuPaul, RuPaul up? Yeah.

Yeah. Josephine Reisman, we had we had her on a while back, and she gave, like, some very obscure ones to kind of demonstrate, like, you know, her literary knowledge and historical knowledge, which I was impressed with. Oh. I forgot I asked somebody else and they panicked and failed. So you’re allowed to panic and fail too.

I don’t know. I feel like that’s really hard to push five people onto a mountain because you could have like, you’re like Yasqueen mountain or you’d have like dolly part share.

Yeah. Sure. How your ass queen mountain is allowed?

Yeah. I honestly feel you give them a balance of, like, Sylvia and Marsha and Harvey.

Harvey? Sylvia and Marsha. Okay. That’s a good three.

Bared. And like can we add more faces? Like — Bared.

—

I feel like you have to have your trailblazers and then we should make room for Dolly Pardon?

Okay. I think the trailblazers mountain with Dolly is a great answer. I gotta tell you I’m so embarrassed to admit that I was like, I didn’t really I like I knew who Bayard rustin was at, like, the most top level, like, one sentence about who he was until I read a Jamie Kerchex book called Secret Podcast. And I like I’ve been down like a Bayard rustin rabbit hole ever since then and like what a fascinating dude. He definitely should be on the Mount Rushmore.

That’s the history that they want to get rid of in schools. I I could have benefited, you know, from that as a kid.

Okay. We have to get some Pete rapid fires in. What is a really gay trait that Pete has in private that people don’t get to see in public?

You know, I feel like he has gotten better over the years at like going along with a bit. Like I have so many theater friends He’s learned to, like, call back a bit. And I I feel like he has gotten better at, like, reading people.

So, like, a read. Like, he’s, like, yeah, he can do a read in the library. I guess, so he did he did some reads in on the debate stage but I guess not really in the gay sense.

Yeah, I feel like he’s allowed to like he could be himself a little bit more. It’s not like himself but like I feel like you can’t do a read to that extent. On a stage.

Now I’m trying to imagine Pete doing a reed with one of your friends while you’re drinking a glass of wine at home.

Anytime it comes out, it is like — Yeah.

—

stop the presses. The glass crushes on

the inside. Okay. My other my other just Pete as a dork rapid fire question I have to ask is, has he ever been to a gay club with you? And if so, what did he wear?

What is a gay club? What is this thing you speak of?

A club with homosexual, dancing, and gay music, you know, house music. Oh

my god. You sound like grandparents.

Yeah. You know, well, I’m just trying to explain it in the most basic way possible. You know, did you ever go to town dance boutique in Washington DC with you? Was he ever around shirtless men dancing to, you know, madonna remixes?

Now this sounds like a congressional panel from the future.

Know, don’t force me into his narrow definition. You know what I mean? Has he been to a gay club and what did he wear?

Oh my God. Why aren’t people so obsessed with what he wears?

I’m upset with with what everybody wears. Okay? So this is not too gay trait. Yeah.

I remember going to sidetracks in Chicago because I when I lived in Chicago.

Yeah. Yeah. And you’d drag him from South Bend to side tracks?

Well, he would come through Chicago on his way to great lakes when he was in the Navy reserves. Yeah. And I used to go to sidetracks for like happy hour after teaching.

Yeah. Okay. And was he in a natural habitat then? I’m like imagining myself at my first gay club when I still had my Republican clothes on that were like really baggy and like walking in and being like, and going to Apex in DC and being like, man, I need a whole new wardrobe right now.

Oh, funny.

And this is how I know. It’s sad. This is a sad story. But now I I’m trying to Now see myself in the Secret Podcast Transportation having had that same experience with you at side tracks, but you’re telling me

There were a lot of baggy clothes when I met him. Yeah.

They’re back in now.

Which is confusing.

That’s what the kids are wearing. Yeah. It’s it’s really it’s really gross. It’s it’s really I’m I’m I’m like a boomer now. Like the boomers who’s still wear the bell bottoms and listen to the Beatles, I’m never giving away my skinny jeans.

Uh-huh. Never.

Like, it is a it is central part of my gay identity, and all Sebastian is now saying that the the baggy short pants are back out.

Oh, really?

Thank God. I hope you’re right. Our producer is is closer to Gen z So he is more in touch with the youths and I was I was so unhappy.

I just went into an urban outfitters the other day. Nothing to buy book tour and I walked in there and I was like, oh, I don’t think

this works. I know. I did the same thing. I forgot to pack warm clothes for Phoenix I was in the circus. They sold there and just sent me to a, you know, Wisconsin or something.

I got sent to Arizona and I went to an urban outfitters and I was like, there’s nothing to wear. I was like, everything is huge.

I remember the the pant legs were like, wider than my body.

I was like, I don’t know. I can’t pull this off on TV. I’m gonna be mocked. Chastin Buttigieg, has been so so lovely. Thank you for doing it.

Your book, I have something to tell you you should get for the teens and tweens in your life And I hope we can do this again soon sometime. Enjoy those kiddos and holler any time. We can do anything for you. Alright?

Thanks. Take it easy.

We’ll see you in it at the next episode of the next level on Wednesday with Sarah Longwell and not me. I will be in Mexico tanning myself I’ll be back the following week with an awesome Sunday interview, and back to the normal schedule the rest of the pool, see you all then. Peace out.