Trump Keeps Admitting His Crimes

Welcome to the Bulwark podcast, a new episode of the Trump trials with our partners from Law Fair. Donald Trump did not have a great day on legal front when day, including, e Jean Carroll, who won another defamation case against him. And, hearing one of his employees is actually officially cooperating with Jack Smith in the documents case. We’re gonna be talking about the Proud Boy trial. We’re gonna be talking about their sentence saying, we’re joined of four once again by Ben Willis editor in chief of Lawfair and Roger Parlaw, senior editor at Lawfair, who has been covering the Proud Boys trial.

So, Ben and Roger. Welcome back on the podcast, first of all.

Thank you.

Good to see you.

Okay. Could you indulge me for a moment? Because I just have to get this off my chest, the US Senate’s dumbest member, Tommy Tuberville, is, explaining why he’s put a hold on all of these promotions in the military and He had some comments about the wokeness of the US Navy yesterday that I I let’s just play this.

There’s no second place more. Okay? We have to have the best. And right now, we are so woke in the military. We’re losing recruits right and left.

Secretary del Toro over the navy. He needs to get to building ships. He needs to get to recruiting and he needs to get wokeness out of our navy. We’ve got people doing points on aircraft carriers over the loud speaker. It is absolutely insane of the direction that we’re headed in our military and we’re headed downhill, not uphill.

Ben,

they’re poems. They’re poems.

Dude, you can’t have people writing poems during war, you know, that leads to Homer, that leads to, you know, all world war one British poets, you know, you just can’t have it. You know, war and poetry don’t go together. It’s Wokism. No poetry for the military.

I’m reluctant to venture into Tommy Tuberville’s mind because it’s a it’s a scary and and vastly empty place. But of all the things he could have picked, to describe. He’s talking about the wokeness of the military. I mean, he’s holding the entire US military hostage because of wokeness. So you would think that he would have just this killer anecdote.

This is why we cannot beat the Chinese. This is why I need to do what I am doing. And my example is they’re reading poetry.

Poetries. Yeah. I

you should’ve just stopped with reading.

They’re reading they’re reading words when when you’re so stupid that you do not know the long and storied history of poetry in warfare. You said Tommy Tuberville’s brain is a is a scary place. I think the empty place is that you went to next is is more accurate. This is a very stupid man, and that is a very stupid comment.

It is. And I’m I’m guessing that he doesn’t know about Henry the fifth’s Saint Crispin’s Day speech to the soldiers. We few. We happy we band of brothers.

Yes. They will hold their manhoods cheap. They were not here on Saint Christmas Day, but

Oh, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

This story shall the good man teach his son, and crispin Crispian shall never go by from this day to the ending of the world, but we in it shall be remembered. We few, we, happy few, we band of brothers for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother be he near so va. This day, this day shall gentle his condition and woman in England, now a bed shall think themselves a curse. They were not here and hold their manhoods cheap. Well, any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s Day.

I also just wanna say that, you know, the whole of the iliad is a war poem, like all of it. It’s not like some of it.

It’s the whole thing.

There are whole chapters of it that are just lists of people who were, you know, killed and what what ships they brought. To, Troy Tommy Tuberville, learn some poetry, dude.

No. Just learn to redo. I mean, I I guess what’s interesting is this the the culture was going to the point where he actually probably think he was scoring. You know, there are people who go to college and they read books You know, at the Battle of Midway, they were not reading John Keith. There was no Percy dish shelly at the Battle of Midway.

I even even know those names. I mean, what am I what am I saying here? He’s never heard of it. Okay. I am sorry.

I just had to do this.

So Yeah. Sometimes you just gotta have fun with them. Yeah.

I know. Okay. Let’s start with the documents case. So Donald Trump goes on, of course, goes on the Hugh Hewitt show and said that he would absolutely testify in his own defense at his criminal trials. Would you like to hear?

The former president of the United States on with Hugh Hewitt explaining his legal strategy. Let’s play Donald Trump on Hugh.

Did you direct anyone to move the boxes? Mister president. Did you tell anyone to move the box these efforts?

Anything. You know why? Because I’m allowed to do whatever I want. I come under the presidential records, Zach. I’m not telling you.

And every time I talk to you, oh, I have a breaking story. You don’t have any story. I come under the presidential records, Zach, I’m allowed to do everything I did.

But if you have to go to trial, will you testify in your own defense?

Oh, yes. Absolutely.

You take the stand.

That I would that I look forward to. Because that’s just like Russia, Russia, Russia. That’s all the fake innovation from Russia, Russian, Russian. Remember when the dossier came out and everyone said, oh, that’s so terrible. That’s so terrible.

And then it turned out to be it was political report for that by Hillary Clinton, the CNC. Yeah. Okay. They paid millions for it. They gave it to Christopher Steel.

Right. Right.

They paid millions and millions of dollars for it, and it was all fake. It was No.

I think that obstruction charge is gonna get the trial, mister president. I I think that’ll Okay. If you do, and they ask you on on the stand. Did you order anyone to move boxes? How will you answer?

I’m not answering that question for you, but I’m totally covered under the law.

Okay. If you

read the presidential records act, Just read it.

Just read it.

Take a look at it.

Okay.

I’m totally covered under the law.

See what it says.

It says civil act. It’s civil. Now Biden Acto Civil act the things he did are criminal, but he doesn’t have a deranged person on his case. You know, they gave me deranged Jack Smith.

Deranged Jack Smith. Alright, Ben? Where do you wanna start with that? The records act that says that apparently explicitly says Donald Trump can do whatever he wants, and he that’s what he’s gonna testify in what’s going to be an epic day in court, right, when Donald Trump actually goes through.

I have three things to say on this rant. The first is that Donald Trump will not testify in his own defense if this thing goes to trial Because no even marginally competent lawyer would allow him to take the stand. If he does take the stand, remember that every single issue that is even ancillary connected to this case become subject to cross examination. So there is no chance that he will take the stand. The second point is that the Presidential Records Act in no sense entitles him to horde class fied information at his compound at Mar a Lago.

I agree with him that people should just read the presidential records, Zach. Like, it it really doesn’t say what he thinks it says.

Call his bluff, actually read the thing.

Actually, it’s not that hard. It’s not that complicated a statute. Read it. It does not say he can have classified material in the bathroom at Mar a lago. The third point I would like to make, and Hugh Hewitt is, not my favorite person in the world, but he’s a smart lawyer, actually.

And he is picking up on something correct here. The obstruction counts in this indictment are not related to the document handling issue. And even if you completely buy Trump’s bullshit about the underlying document retention case, there’s still these subpoenas and failure to return material and the machinations to prevent the return of the material that violate the instruction laws even if the material weren’t classified. And so Hugh Hewitt here is picking up on something significant, which is that the biggest danger to Trump, which doesn’t depend on the presidential records act or anything else is just that he had a subpoena and he went out of his way in a hundred different ways to defy it including moving the boxes. Ordering those boxes moved, and Trump is just walking himself into a world of hurt with these admissions.

So we also had some other developments, including the fact that, his lawyers had warned him. You know, if you defied the Department of Justice, they actually could get a search warrant and the FBI could come to Mar a lago. And, apparently, that didn’t dissuade Donald Trump who said, well, what if we just lied to the Department of Justice about this? And, you know, that we’re not gonna do this. And the fact that his lawyer then makes a a recording of his recollection of all of the conversations, and that’s now in in the record.

Evan Corcoran, who, was, you know, maybe, you know, covering.

And who is still representing him on other matters, despite being apparently a prosecution witness. In this one.

Wow. Now one of the things that Jack Smith has done has been to pierce that attorney client privilege based on the fraud exception, the crime and fraud exception, is that something that will be relitigated in the trial? Could judge, I mean, canon? Could she reverse that and say, hey, no. We can’t use any of that.

I’m gonna reinstate attorney client privilege. I mean, that’s that seems like a major issue. Because that piece of evidence obviously is pretty important, pretty damning.

Yes. So she could presumably the government will try to introduce this. This was for grand jury purposes ruled on by, I believe, Judge Barrel, who was chief judge at the time in the District of Columbia.

Yes.

And I suppose, you know, you could say to the extent that the government tries to put on Evan Cork’s testimony or his notes or the recording of himself Trump could challenge the admissibility on the basis of the attorney client privilege and argue that judge Howell was incorrect in her ruling, and that does leave potentially a fair bit of discretion in the hands of judge cannon whose fidelity to the law and precedent has not always been perfect. And so I I do think that’s a bit of a wild card. Especially because such matters are generally not going to be appealable on a interlocutory basis. I do think that’s an area where she could wreak some mischief to be frank.

Okay. One more question on the document case, this information technology employee, Usil Tavares struck a cooperation agreement with a special counsel’s office. This was revealed in a new court filing. CNN is reporting it as former attorney Stanley Woodward wrote in the court following that Tavares agreed to the deal after being threatened with prosecution. This was the first public document showing that Jack Smith has won the cooperation of a key witness.

We kind of already knew that, but it obviously has gotta be sending a few tremors, through Mar a Lago.

Yeah. So we talked about this a couple weeks ago when I was in Iceland. And, I mean, I think this flip has significance both obviously for this case, but also I do think the bigger significance of it is potentially for other witnesses both in this case and in the Fulton County case where you have eighteen co defendants, you know, you have unindicted co conspirators in the DC case. And by the way, everybody in the world is represented by Stanley Bulwark. You know, it’s like one lawyer to rule them all, and No conflicts there.

Yeah. No conflicts there. And so what happens is First Cassidy Hutchenson gets another lawyer and starts cooperating, you know, with the January sixth committee, then this guy gets another lawyer and magically starts cooperating. The question is when the cascade starts. Right?

Because at some point, all of a sudden, people are gonna realize that it’s not in their interest to be rep presented by the party lawyer who’s representing everybody else only for purposes of holding their stories together.

So let’s talk about the January six DC case. Roger, you were in the courtroom for the nearly four month Proud Boy trial earlier year, and you were there when the jury convicted them in DC back in May. I think we talked about this. So I I know you were on vacation, well deserved vacation. You weren’t there for the sentencing, but you obviously followed it and you covered it.

So I just wanna get your observations on what happened this week when Enrique Taria was sentenced to twenty two years in prison, the longest prison sentence, handed out, to anyone involved in the attack on on the capital. And Rico Terrio, was not there actually present at the Capitol, but, obviously, the judge was was gonna hold him accountable. So talk to me a little bit about what happened, in court on Tuesday.

And like you say, I I wasn’t present there, but I’ve tried to familiarize myself, including with, Brandy Buckman’s live tweeting. Yeah. Twenty two years is, pretty hefty for anyone. The government was asking for thirty three years. But I was impressed.

This is four more than Stuart Rhodes received. He got eighteen years, the the founder of the oath keepers. It was not a surprise in the sense that he was the chairman of the Proud Boys, and he had created the chapter that was devoted to activities on January sixth, he created it the day after Trump issued that tweet on December nineteenth. The Will Be Wild tweet, calling people to DC. He created this group And, he led it right up until January fourth, two days before, and then he was arrested And this gets into some sort of interesting Freudian speculations about what was going on with, Tario, exactly.

And there’s different ways to interpret that. So he was in Baltimore, but while the thing was going on, he was in contact by telegram. He had a phone call with one of the other top five, Joe Biggs for forty two seconds, while the Capital was under siege. He tried to reach Nadine by phone, Ethan Nadine, who was the ground leader, and then he issued statements on parlor and also privately that were extremely powerful. He at two thirty eight PM, he said, on parlor, don’t effing leave.

Now this is right in the middle of the insurrection with its most uncontrolled point. Then he said, proud of my boys and my country. He sent out a photo of a rioter sitting on the you know, at the dais where the president of the Senate, the vice president normally sits seventeen seventy six But the most damning thing was at at two forty PM. He wrote a private email to the, the National Advisory Board of the Proud Boys on a chat called Gullen Bones and said, make no mistake. We did this.

And judge Tim Kelly, who is incidentally a trump appointee.

Which is interesting, an interesting footnote.

Yeah.

With all the rhetoric we hear about out of the the Biden regime is doing this. No. It’s it’s actually a Trump appointee. I’m sorry.

Yeah. He repeated that twice. That phrase make no mistake. We did this hitting each word the second time. Again, according to Brandy, I wasn’t there.

Make no mistake. We did this. So he was the top guy. I actually was not certain Because Ethan Nadine was the ground leader that day. I wasn’t sure who he would consider the top guy.

But the government certainly considered Tario, the top guy, and also biggs. Apparently, I was surprised by that. They’ve sought thirty three years for Tario and Biggs who eventually got seven feet. Joe Biggs had been a an employee of Alex Jones at Info Wars at one point. And he had a huge following in that, you know, parlor following And, he was sort of considered a war hero and had a lot of influence.

So the government also focused on him, but The sentence makes sense, but all the same, twenty two years just any way you cut it. It’s a big number.

I thought it was interesting. I mean, Tario’s defense attorneys, I think, you know, understandably argued that, you know, because he wasn’t there that day, couldn’t have foreseen what, what would happen, and the judge just wasn’t having it. Said, you know, you made that argument to the jury. The jury did not buy it. And he noted that a co defendant’s pepper spraying of an officer was, in fact, foreseeable, since Tario himself told the Proud Boys to bring pepper spray, he also ruled that sentencing enhancement should apply.

So I think this was pretty wild. I thought it was also interesting. The judge Kelly, the Trump appointee said, that he found the January six planning started as soon as December nineteenth, the day of Donald Trump’s, you know, will be wild tweets. So, you know, part of this is tracing it right back to that call from Donald Trump?

Absolutely. And if Trump does go to trial in the Jack Smith case, and is convicted. You really have to wonder the sentencing guidelines will be different because the crimes are slightly different. But how could you give him less than these sentences? Everybody was there for him.

I don’t see how you could.

A fifth defendant’s been charged in connection with the attack on officer Michael fanone, a fifty nine year old guy from Virginia named Lewis Snoots. Who, apparently, can be seen in footage restraining, fanone, is another rider, you know, is using a stun gun on the back of his neck and so far, four other people have been convicted and sentenced in the assault of fanon. Give me some insight into, like, why are they getting these guys now? This is a long time after the event. Is it the online sleuths who are doing the video things?

I mean, how how did they get Lewis snoots?

I was in Geneva when this happened, and I’m not up to up on snoots — Okay.

—

but these online, sleuths have been incredible.

So let

me ask you about one other thing. So Joe Bigs called into, Alex Jones and said that he’d been basically fully expected that, Donald Trump would pardon him. And we have, Ron DeSantis, presidential candidate who is out condemning what he calls the excessive sentences given to members of the Proud Boy and at least hinting that he would look at the possibility of commuting the sentences or or issuing hardens. How does it play in that you have this political world out there where they walk out of the courtroom facing these just massively devastating sentences, but also with the hope that Donald Trump might just wipe it all away. That creates a very unusual dynamic, doesn’t it?

Yes. Dominic Pizola, the guy that busted out the two windows, the first very first windows that allowed the first rioters to come in. You know, he apparently cried at sentencing and tried to show remorse, and then He got ten years, which was ten years below what the government was asking twenty years.

It’s still a long sentence.

It’s still a long sentence. But on the way out of the courtroom yelled Trump won after crying and trying to show remorse and all of this. So I think everyone realizes there that, you know, if a Republican wins, that’s their ticket out of here. In fairness, these are long sentences. There was an interesting thing this morning, or, actually, last night, Norm Patis, who’s the lawyer for big and for Zach Reel, two of these defendants at this point, disclosed what the plea offers were to these guys on the eve of trial before they went to trial what they were offered.

Had they plead guilty before trial, they had an opportunity to get sentences that would have been half to, in one case, at least, almost well, a third. Of what they ended up getting. What he’s going to argue on appeal is that this is a sort of a, an unconstitutional tax on asserting your right to go to trial. Now it is dramatic, and and and a lot of criminal defense lawyers have complained about this for a long time. And in fact, I think the, you know, when the sentencing guidelines took effect, the number of trials went down because the pressure to plead became more and more enormous.

And there’s something to that. At the same time, these sentences were way below the guidelines. As big as they are, they are five to fifteen years below the bottom of the guidelines. And, they are ten to sixteen years below what the government saw. So I don’t know.

It it sort of works both ways.

May I add something here?

Please.

Two things. One is, you know, when the oathkeepers were sentenced, the eighteen years that Stuart Rhodes got sounded like a big number, the government is appealing that. You know, so Roger’s point that, you know, these numbers are big and yet they’re way below the guidelines will not be lost on the US attorney’s office and, you know, query whether they will go to the DC circuit and say we should have gotten more. The second point is that the tax on the constitutional right to go to trial is very real, but it’s a systemic issue. It doesn’t affect these guys any more than it affects anybody else who feels pressured into pleading because if you don’t get to that credit and the guidelines for saving the government the time and expensive trial, you will serve more time.

And that is a legitimate matter of dispute between prosecutors and the defense bar and it’s one in which I I think there’s a lot of reason to be skeptical of the current state of the law, but it’s by no means unique to these guys nor is this, I I think, an especially dramatic example of it. It’s it’s just an organic feature of you know, life under the sentencing guidelines where if you force the government to go to trial, you’re in a different category from people who plead out and negotiate a a sentencing guidelines range.

So, Roger, thank you very much for joining us today.

Thank you.

So there’s so much other stuff going on. I don’t wanna have it locked. I mean, e Jean Carroll, case of federal judge, on Wednesday ruled that, aging Carroll had already proved the trumpet defamer back in May. So, he basically just You know, so that’s the finding. You’ve been defamed.

Now the jury’s gonna decide what the awards are. Right? So the only matter left to decide is how much money and that trial is scheduled for January. So it seems like, I mean, Trump has just rolled over on that particular case. I mean, he’s just taken the l.

Right?

Yeah. I think that’s right. I think, you know, for Trump, the important thing about that case is you know, simply the amount of money that it’s gonna cost him. He’s already taken whatever reputational damage he’s gonna take from what’s effectively a a a civil rape charge. Although, you know, it presents as a defamation charge, but it’s but it’s it’s effectively liability for raping somebody and then lying about it.

And I’m old enough to remember when that would have been a big issue.

Yeah. I am old enough to remember that too. And I think we should, you know, just as we are also old enough to remember when terrorizing election workers would have been a big deal. Yeah. And also old enough to remember when running a scam university or paying off a porn star would have been a big deal.

With a bit of thing.

Right. I think we all just kinda have to remember that just because they’re not a thing anymore that anybody cares about doesn’t mean they’re not objectively important. The functional question for Trump in the e g and Carol case is simply how much money it’s the cost. Right? He’s in these other cases.

There’s a question of is he gonna do prison time? Is he going to, you know, have criminal convictions the, the Eugene Carroll case is just money. And I think the reputational damage that the facts in the case are gonna cause him to the extent it’s an issue. It’s already caused him, and it’s kind of priced in. For Eugene Carroll, however, it is a big deal because there is a significant measure of vindication in that.

And that’s a you know, that’s an independent good in my view that somebody who has been grievously wronged, and then lied about, you know, physically assaulted and then lied about in public actually gets her day in court and gets the judgment that says, okay. That’s an independently important thing, whatever it does to Donald Trump. For trump, it’s just money.

Yeah. For Trump, rape is just the cost of doing business now. He’ll just write out a check or, you know, not write out a a check because when you’re a billionaire celebrity, they they apparently let you raped people as long as you paid the money, I guess. I don’t know.

He even says it. When you’re a star, they let you do it.

Yeah. So separately, another case out there that civil fraud trial, again, a civil case, New York judge rejects, Trump’s requested to lay the civil fraud trial. This is the This is the case brought by New York’s attorney general Latitia James, who is seeking two hundred and fifty million dollars accusing Trump and his co defendants of submitting years of fraudulent financial statements to get better tax benefits and loan terms for the Trump organization. Don’t know. That’s kind of fraud that would probably get you or I thrown in jail, but it’s a civil case when you’re, Donald Trump.

So the judge, just slam dunk Trump’s attempted delay, saying that his request for delay was up without merit. And that trial is scheduled currently for October second. October second. That’s less than a month. So, I mean, the calendar is really getting jammed, isn’t it?

The calendar is jammed. The civil trials, of course, don’t require his personal presence. So he can kind of hang out and campaign at Mar a Lago. But the Latisha James Civil trial in New York does have implications beyond money because it seeks among other things, all kinds of limits on the activities of Trump organization and who’s allowed to run that business. And, you know, I have not followed it in particular depth, but you know, first of all, the volume of money in question is enormous.

You know, it’s measured in the percentages of billions of dollars rather than you know, that you defamed me kind of millions of dollars thing. But secondly, and more importantly, I believe it it asks for, essentially, you know, the removal of Trump family members from authority of positions within the organization essentially the dissolution of the Trump organization as we currently understand it. And so that, I think, has some broader implications than simply the, you know, individual liability questions.

Alright. Let’s talk about Georgia. You were listening in on the hearing yesterday. So, Ben, what happened?

Yeah. So this is really interesting. So you’re gonna have to bear with me as I explain the severance issue here because who’s getting severed from who is really interesting if a little byzantine So you have nineteen co defendants. One of whom is Donald Trump. Some of them, like Trump, want to push this trial off as long as possible.

Two of them, the estimable Kenneth Chesborough of your native state of Wisconsin, and the estimable. We, Sydney Powell of Texas have invoked their rights to a speedy trial. And so the first question is, does this force everybody to have a speedy trial, and speedy means October twenty third, right, really soon. So their trial is scheduled for October twenty third. The first is, do they get locked off from the other nineteen?

The second question, which was what was before the court yesterday is whether they get locked off from each other or whether they have to go to trial together. The judge answered the latter question. So they are going to trial together. They wanted to be separated from each other, but the first question has not been answered yet. There’s an outside possibility.

And I think it’s pretty remote, but there’s an outside possibility that you could have a trial of the whole group as early as October.

The whole group

the whole group, all nineteen. They have not been severed from that yet. And so I think that’s gonna happen next week because I don’t think anybody thinks that we’re really gonna have a trial of Donald Trump as early as this October. But formally, that has not been ruled out yet. The judge yesterday.

By the way, this judge, judge McAfee, who is a new judge, the Baltimore County District Court seems really impressive. He’s

— That’s good news. —

organized. He’s thoughtful, and he seems to be in under pretty difficult circumstances running a pretty good process. I urge people, you know, it’s Fulton County District Court, so you can actually just subscribe to the guy’s YouTube page and watch all the hearings. You can also see them all on law fair. Amazing.

Yeah. He’s got a YouTube page and that’s where, you know, where all the hearings are. It’s great TV, by the way. So one question is, are they going to sever these to from the other nineteen. The answer to that is almost certainly yes, but they haven’t done it yet.

The other question, which is now in federal court, is whether this case is gonna get removed from this Fulton County District Court entirely at least on a temporary basis and heard in federal court in Atlanta. And that question was argued last week by Mark Meadows and his attorneys in federal court in Georgia. And so there’s a lot of interesting action both on the severance question and on the removal question. And one thing that could possibly happen I think it’s really unlikely, but it’s not impossible is if the federal court denies removal and the state court decides not to sever these cases, you could theoretically have a trial really quickly. You know, I don’t think it could happen by October, but it could happen much faster than people think.

I think for a bunch of reasons, I think it’s very unlike to happen that way, but it’s not impossible.

Okay. So just basically moments before we began recording this You posted on Law Fair, an article that you wrote with Anna Bauer and, Ellen Rosenstein, in Fulton County, fear not removal. You write the issue as complicated, but removal the Fulton County case to Federal Court would not be a disaster, and it’s probably the right answer. Now this is a little bit contrarian because there are a lot of media voices out there. A lot of pundits.

Who are, you know, saying, hey, this is, you know, a a right? To hear many pundits discuss the question of Mark Meadows’s motion to remove the Fulton County election interference case to federal court, you would think it posed a straightforward question, trio of analysts and just security. Right? Even though the legal hurdle is low, the law is favorable to federal officers. Meadows faces a seemingly insurmountable barrier.

The wash and post editorialized, not to do it. So give me your take on this because you’re saying, you know, slow down. This is not the worst thing in the world. Why not?

Yeah. I actually think removal might be a good thing. So

explain yourself.

Let me give you both theoretical and the practical reason. Yeah. The theoretical reason is Yeah.

By the way, is this a removal of everything or just Mark Meadows part of it?

It’s at least removal of the parts that involve people who were in federal office. So Meadows, trump, Jeffrey Bulwark.

Okay.

But it may be that the whole case moves with those parts. That’s a sort of uncertain question. So look, the standard of removal is if you’re a federal officer And there is a remotely plausible federal defense. That defense needs to be heard in federal court. The theory behind that is you don’t want states criminalizing the federal government’s policies and then indicting the officers who carry it out.

Now nobody sane thinks that Donald Trump is immune or that Mark Meadows is gonna be ultimately held to be immune from state prosecution by federal immunity.

Right.

The question is who should decide that defense question? That defense motion is coming. And the question is whether you want that motion decided by a Fulton County Court and then a peeled up to the Georgia Supreme Court so that the Georgia Supreme Court is kind of the final word on that.

Oh, I see.

And then it becomes a sort of mess after conviction how you get federal review of that, or whether you want a clean federal review of that at the front end so that once you have a trial, you don’t get to say, but wait a minute. He was immune on under federal law. I think there’s a pretty good argument that you want that federal review upfront, and that’s what removal is for. So that’s the sort of theoretical basis. The practical basis is more simple, and I think ultimately what motivates me, which is, you know, Fulton County District Court is a bit of a docket mess.

It has a huge backlog. It’s moving these Rico cases incredibly slowly. There’s a long running Rico trial that has been this is the Young slime life trial called y s l which has been in jury selection for eight months.

So this will be the old slime life.

Yes. Exactly. Old slime life.

The young slime life, and they will have old slime life. Okay.

Right. You know, so it is just not a hundred percent clear to me that the Fulton County Circuit Court, and Fony Willis’s own office are institutionally well position to move this case in a in an efficient fashion. And federal courts are really good at highly complicated cases. That’s kind of their specialty. And so there’s a there’s a good argument from my point of view in let’s deal with the federal issues upfront rather than sort of pushing them to the back and let’s do it in the court that has the highest competence.

I don’t mean to to snot on the Fulton County courts. They’ve they’ve been doing a good job in this case so far. This is a heck of a case. And if litigating it in federal court can make it a little bit more efficient, I think that’s probably a good idea. I also think a lot of peoples, and this is where I’ll be critical of some of the commentary.

And I think a lot of the commentariat have had their knees jerked by the fact that Mark Meadows moved for this and Donald Trump will move for it. And there’s something obnoxious to them about emotion that — Yeah.

—

the defendants are proposing that Fawnee Willis is opposing their knees kind of jerking her direction. And I think if you look at it instead from the point of view of what’s the right answer from a judicial economy point of view? Removal actually makes a lot of sense.

Okay. No. I I I do think that there’s a little bit of, little bit of knee jerk thing. Now, of course, one of the big downsides of removal to federal court, though, would be that we would not get this televised version, would we? We would not,

you know, due to

That is the

big downside.

That’s the big one, because I’m kinda looking forward to the show. I have to admit. You sold me on the show, and now you’re taking it away from me.

Okay. So wait. I wanna give it back, though. So here’s what I think should happen. You remove the case to resolve the federal issues.

You resolve the federal issues with a single motion to dismiss. Donald Trump, Mark Meadows, files their motion for supremacy clause immunity. You litigate that. That’s a a complicated motion to litigate, but it’s not the trial.

Mhmm.

And then, well, if they prevail on that, the case gets dismissed. Well, I don’t think that’s gonna happen. But, okay, if they don’t prevail on that, the federal interest is gone. And the case then gets remanded back to Fulton County. So I think you can have your cake and eat it too.

You can let them win on removal and still get your televised trial in Fulton County.

We’ll see because I I wanna watch it on TV. Okay. So, this is a little bit unfair because, I have to admit that I’m obsessed with what’s happening in my home state here, and I don’t wanna put you on the spot about all of this. But for the push by, Republicans in the Wisconsin State legislature, to, impeach and remove a newly elected liberal Supreme Court justice before she has issued a single ruling is extraordinary, both as a legal matter, but as a political matter. As a political matter, I have to say that it might my hair is on fire about the political malpractice involved in Republican spending this much political capital on an issue of recusal involving redistricting.

Because this is going to be this massive firestorm. It also raises, though, the legal issue, this new environment we’re in, where Republicans in congress and in legislatures around the country have really sort of internalized the idea now that it is part of their mission or that they are compelled or obliged to interfere in the criminal justice system, the legal system, to obstruct justice, to defund process leaders to remove judges who they disagree with. You know, this feels like we’re in a new era now. Where in fact the the lines between the various branches of government are eroding. And we can no longer talk about whether we’re talking about the sentencing of the Proud Boys or what’s going to happen with a Wisconsin Supreme Court, or whether or not Georgia’s legislature is going to kneecap Fannie Willis.

I mean, the politicization of all of this, it feels to me like it is a accelerating. So I wanted to get your take on all of this.

So I will start by saying that literally everything I know about this subject, I know from listening to Hugh and Will Saletan discuss it the other day on the board podcast. It is appalling to have a pretextual impeachment for no reason other than to prevent a duly elected and I hate judicial elections, but that ends the system in in Wisconsin, a duly elected justice from ruling on a particular case. Right? It’s not actually based on anything she really did, although there is, you know, some, some pretext for it. It’s based on a fear of what she will do in a particular case.

So this is bad in every conceivable way that a, you know, legislative response to the judiciary can be bad. It’s almost the nightmare scenario. The nightmare scenario at the federal level is impeaching justices for the substance of their rulings. Right? That’s what the old pickering impeachment was was about in the early days of the Republic.

This is worse than that. This is the impeaching of justice for the anticipated substance of her ruling. So it’s really, really, really bad. The only thing you can say, I think, in defense of it, is that it is so bad that it amounts to as you say political malpractice and will kind of trigger a backlash that is itself a bit of a spanking. You know Wisconsin politics so much better than I do that I leave it to you to tell me whether that’s likely or whether that’s what we’ll thinking.

And, actually, Robin Voss is being clever here because he can get away with this. And so I wanna turn the question around to you and say, alright, assume it triggers a backlash what does that backlash look like and how does it come to be the spanking for Rob and Voss that he so dearly dearly needs.

This is the key question. I have to take I am getting mixed messages, from folks in Madison about whether or not this is really going to happen. Obviously, if you read the New York Times story, it certainly looks like they are determined to do this. No Republican is pushing back. You have Scott Bulwark saying that the the assembly is obligated to impeach and remove her.

There are other Republicans who are privately saying this would be a disaster. And as I’ve said before, and I get some pushback on this, Robin Boss is a smart politician. Okay? Now he has a deep sense of entitlement to his gerrymandered majority. He is this is his precious, and he is prepared to spend a lot of political capital to protect it.

The question is, at what point does the price tag become too high, too much political capital? And that goes to your question. How big is the backlash? If Robin Voss and the donor class, which includes, you know, the big business organizations, you know, Wisconsin manufacturers and commerce and the realtors association. If they realize, if they come to think that if they do this, that they will be swamped with outside money that they will have, you know, tens of millions of dollars pouring into Wisconsin as part of the backlash.

They might rethink this, go, okay. We really, really want this super majority. We don’t want her to rule on this. But the price tag is just too high. That will get their attention.

And there’s every reason to believe that that will happen because first of all, the state Democrats who Amazingly have gotten their act together here in Wisconsin, really reversal of fortunes here in Wisconsin, very, very smart, chairman, Ben Wickler, They’re mobilizing as if this is a statewide campaign. They’re going to launch a four million dollar ad campaign targeting this effort to essentially negate more than a million Wisconsin votes, these ads then write themselves. This is shooting fish in a barrel for the Democrats. They have a plan. The Republicans, as far as I can tell, have no counter plan other than we’re gonna pull this off.

We’re gonna ram this through, and then we’re just gonna keep our heads down. Well, you know, if this results, for example, I’m not gonna get deep into it again. But if this results in another do over special election next spring, it will once again be the most expensive judicial election in and history. And the question is, do Republicans really want that? Do they really want, you know, another hundred million dollar campaign that will center on the issue of abortion because even though they’re going to impeach her because of her refusal to recuse on redistricting, you know, her removal from the bench has tremendous implications for the future of Wisconsin’s abortion ban.

So that’s going to be back on the ballot. So This is one of those moments where it’s the id versus the superego. Will they be able to control themselves? The other question is, I can certainly imagine somebody like Robin Voss making the decision. I really, really wanna do this, but, no, it’s too dangerous.

But finding himself unable to control the fire that they lit because you and I have watched this before. These ideas may start small, but then they catch fire in the base, you know, there’s, like, you know, pouring kerosene on all of this. And if the base begins to demand this as a litmus test, Will they be able to say no? Now, again, I’ve been told by members of the state legislature Charlie Sykes hundred percent, there is no chance we are not this stupid not going to blow ourselves up in this way. This is just a blow.

I’ve also been told by people who say, look, there’s no no way to stop this train. There’s no way. You’ve seen this before. Wisconsin Republicans have shown a willingness to, break norms if they feel they have to remember after the twenty eighteen election after Scott Walker was defeated, they rushed into special session to change all the powers of the governor and things like that. You know, that they weren’t embarrassed.

They weren’t ashamed to do that, and they didn’t pay that much of a price for it. So I I don’t know, but it’s awfully fascinating. It would be it would be a dramatic escalation in a state that is already on a nice edge. But it’s hard to explain because things are so intense here. But this would take it to a whole different level.

This would this would take it back to act ten level of political partisan, division, and passion. And I’m not sure that when Robin Voss, the speaker of the state assembly floated this idea, that he really had thought out exactly what the price tag would be. That’s a long answer to basically say, I don’t know, but damn, it’s interesting.

Yeah. It seems to me that’s where the rub of the question is because, realistically, in state where you have a super majority reinforced by a legislative filibuster and you’re controlling by the impeachment, the ability of the Supreme Court to interfere with that legislative majority you have a locked in power base. I don’t think realistically there’s a legal response to it. The only response is political. And so the question becomes how high can you make the political cost?

Yeah. I agree with you. There will be legal challenge. I mean, I could conceive a state legal challenge. I expect there will be one.

I don’t know whether, you know, how it will be resolved by a Supreme Court that will be completely deadlocked. Conceivably, there might be a, you know, a federal action based on the first amendment, you know, citing Justice Scalia’s ruling. And, you know, the Republican Party had been soda versus was it white, that said that, you know, judicial candidates had a constitutional right to take positions on political issues. I don’t know whether that’s gonna go. But if my sense is what you just said, that ultimately, this will have to be decided politically.

It will be decided by the ballot box and even though it already was in some ways in April, when they elected Jennifer to say which, they’re going to have to do it again. And then they’re gonna have to do it again and again and again. And we’re seeing the willingness of Republicans in Wisconsin and around the country to overturn elections or ignore elections, I think on the on the upswing. I’m just imagining the ads that are gonna run and the reaction. No.

People went through this election. And she won by more than eleven points in a state that is usually decided by less than one point. She won by more than two hundred thousand votes, in a state where state wide elections usually decided by twenty thousand votes. And for Robin Voss to wipe that away with us, an assembly vote. Care of what you wish for again.

The Jack have been wing of the Republican Party.

Yeah. Absolutely. Ben Willis, thank you so much. For joining me again.

Thank you, Charlie Sykes

appreciate it, and thank you all for listening to this episode of the Trump trials. We will be back tomorrow. We’ll do this all over again. The Bullworth Pontat is produced by Katie Cooper, and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.