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Tom Nichols: Citizen Trump

February 7, 2024
Notes
Transcript
The Supreme Court’s legitimacy would really be on the line if it took up Trump’s completely lunatic immunity theory after the D.C. Circuit’s airtight rejection of it. Plus, the four Republican Parties in the House, and not-a-journalist Tucker’s suck up to Putin. Tom Nichols joins Charlie Sykes.
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:08
    Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. One of the themes of the podcast, unfortunately, is this is why we can’t have nice things. And midday yesterday, When that DC Circuit Court of Appeals’s opinion came down and I had a chance to read it, I thought, okay. Maybe we can have some good things, but gonna put an asterisk behind it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:28
    So I wanted to talk about that with my good friend, Tom Nicholson, professor emeritus at the Naval War College, now a staff writer at the Atlanta author of the Atlantic Daily newsletter, books include the deaf about how would you know who he is? Tom, I was actually going to look up How many times you’ve been on the podcast, but I lost count before I could get to the number. So welcome back on the podcast.
  • Speaker 2
    0:00:49
    Well, thank you, Shawn. It’s gonna be with you.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:51
    This is one of those days. We’re standing in front of the fire hose. Right? Because, I mean, there’s so much going on. We have the court decision on citizen Trump We have the Ukraine and the border bill hanging fire.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:02
    We have Rana, Rami McDaniel, thrown under the bus. We have Tucker Carlson doing his useful idiot routine with Vladimir Putin in Moscow. And we have JD Vance being JD Vance. JD Vance. I just don’t have enough energy to get to that right away.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:19
    So can we start with citizen trunk? Let’s just start with the good stuff. Okay? Because I there was a lot of there was a lot of griping and a lot hand wringing. Like, where’s the court of appeals?
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:29
    When are they coming down with? And it really turns out in the end that they were not dragging their feet. They were just getting it right. They were coming up with an airtight slam dunk of Donald Trump’s claims of presidential immunity. And it is a thing of constitutional beauty.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:48
    Your thoughts about it. There’s so many different aspects to touch on. I thought this unanimous decision by the court. Was definitive. And I don’t think it could have been stronger in many ways.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:59
    What do you think?
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:01
    The thing I liked most about it was that it was a ringing constitutional case, you know, ringing endorsement of the separation powers and accountability and democracy. I mean, it’s just it said everything that I would want it to say. But it said it in a way that you don’t have to be a lawyer or an expert to understand.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:21
    And since I am neither now, I appreciated that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:25
    I’m not a lawyer, and I’m certainly not a constitutional expert, you know, unless the Russian constitution, that that was my old Baileywick. Yeah. But I read it, and I thought, you know, You could take this and just send it to every American, and they could read it and completely understand it. I mean, there were such great moments in it about the lunacy of Trump’s argument that well, you know, the other two branches
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:52
    Yeah. I know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:53
    Branch That’s true. To supreme and you know, the president’s king, and he can never be held accountable. And, you know, with this very, again, very ringing endorsement of our constitutional principles. These three judges shot it down. And I wonder if they did it so effectively that the Supreme Court simply refuses to even hear this at this point.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:13
    Well, I think there’s a real good chance. I wanna get to that because I think that’s maybe in the most important part of all of this, and there’s so many parts. But we know what Donald Trump’s strategy is, which is to delay to delay to delay. And he I think he’s been hoping that he could stretch this out, and the court did something. And I hope people stick around for this.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:31
    That I think makes that much more difficult. So his defeat was more comprehensive than simply losing this case. But your point about the average person can understand this. Amazingly, Tom, it turns out that the president is not a king. And I love the fact that they use the term citizen Trump.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:49
    For the purpose of this criminal case, former president Trump has become citizen Trump with all the defenses of any other criminal defendant But any executive immunity that may have protected him while he served as president no longer protects him against this prosecution. And then I love this line here. It would be a striking paradox if the president who alone is vested with the constitutional duty to, quote, take care that the laws be faithfully executed, where the sole officer capable of defying those laws with impunity. That was the money shot.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:24
    That was the money shot. I mean, that was the that one jumped out at me too because, you know, every time people defend Trump and in the convoluted ways that they do. That always comes back to me about the one person who must take care that the laws are faithfully executed. And I always think of, Lincoln in the habeas corpus. Matter what he says are all the laws to go unobserved but one that at some point when it all falls down, then, you know, we get into this game of which laws were going to and, of course, Lincoln was speaking out of desperation at wartime.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:59
    And so I thought it was great for the appeals court to kind of call back to that to say, No. Let’s remember what the executive branch actually is charged with doing. Again, in a way that oaths, nasa, and sensible that accords with the common sense of the average person. You know? It’s like saying The only guy in town that doesn’t have to follow the laws, the mayor, and the police chief, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:27
    And apparently, it also clears question about whether or not the president can, send seal team six to murder a political opponent. Now, of course, trump’s out there saying, Hey, if I can’t do that, then I can’t be president. So he he’s not taking this well.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:39
    If I can’t use seal team six as, you know, my my personal murder squad, I mean, I thought this was America.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:45
    What’s the point? Yeah. What did he say? It was, like, this was, like, a country destroying decision. Save presidential immunity.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:53
    Okay. You and I have talked for many years now about the mind of Donald Trump, that reptilian instinct that he has, but I have to tell you that save presidential immunity is not the ringing political winner that he perhaps thinks it is. If he wants to die on that hill, let him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:11
    You know, you’re right. He has this lit we both noticed it. Right? This lizard brain. I mean, the one thing I’ve always said about him is that he is the dumbest human being ever to be president but that he has a genius for marketing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:21
    He has a genius for putting his name on stuff and getting people to buy, you know, crappy vodka and cheap steaks and, you know, all that other stuff. In this case, even the people that are inclined to support him may very well hear when they hear presidential immunity, it means, save my ass. Legal.
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:40
    I’m above the law.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:41
    Well, more than that, I have to be above the law because I did some pretty shady things. And if I’m not above the law, then I’m gonna be in a hell of a mess. And it’s your job faithful cult members to make sure that I can never be held legally accountable. We can’t really argue about what’s a good sell to his base, they’ll take anything. I mean, he can tell them that the moon’s made of green cheese.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:02
    But I think for a lot of the people who might have been inclined to support him, or we’re on the fence about is he really that dangerous? I mean, this really does come across as your duty as a citizen is to save me from the legal consequences of my own criming.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:16
    Okay. So I I know it’s never a good idea to read, you know, court decisions, but I just wanted to just highlight the key section here. At bottom, they write. Former president Trump’s stance would collapse our system of separated powers by placing the president beyond the reach of all three branches. Presidential immunity against federal indictment would mean that as to the president, the Congress could not legislate the executive could not prosecute and the judiciary could not review.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:43
    We cannot accept that the office of the presidency places its former occupants above the law for all time thereafter, which by the way is really what he’s claiming. Careful evaluation of these concerned leads us to conclude There is no functional justification for immunizing former presidents from federal prosecution in general or for immunizing former president Trump from the specific charges in this indictment. And so holding react not in derogation of the separation of powers but to maintain their proper balance. So, again, this is a fundamental constitutional question. It’s nicely written, by the way.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:19
    As a former writing teacher, let
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:20
    me just say. Written.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:21
    It was really well written.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:23
    I thought so too. Okay. So the question now, and this is an important one, is what happens now? Can Trump drag this out. Now I think the assumption had been that Trump would do and again, within his rights, that he would ask the court to review its own decision, which they’re not gonna change, then he would ask for the court of appeals to rehear it on Bang.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:44
    Which is all the judges. You have a three judge panel that made this ruling. He could ask that delay delay delay, and then he will appeal to the US Supreme Court. Where he needs four votes to grant cert to take it up. People following me so far.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:00
    So the all these things delay And the real key point here is that he just whatever tactic he does to push this trial back is a win for him. If he pushes it back past the election. It could be, you know, an ultimate win for him. The judges on this court, and I’ll talk with Ben Willis about this tomorrow because Law Fair laid this out. One of the key things is They made that a lot harder.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:20
    They basically said, you don’t have forever to appeal this. You have until Monday. You have till Monday. To appeal this. He can’t go to the on bank.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:30
    Trump can only stop the issuance of the mandate by petitioning the Supreme Court for a stay pending a full application for CERT, not by seeking rehearing. Okay. So a little bit of math here. Apologize in advance. You need four justices to grant cert, which is we will hear this case.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:48
    It takes five justices to grant the stay. To stop Judge Chutkin from going ahead. You know, it may seem like we’re parsing, but that could be decisive because the stay actually could delay this case into the election or past the election, but if he doesn’t get a stay, if the court looks at this and goes, you know what? We got enough shit to deal with. We’re not dealing with this, then this mandate goes into effect right away, and we’re gonna have a trial.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:17
    Donald Trump is going to stand trial.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:19
    Let’s back up and point something out for folks that don’t spend their lives following politics. There’s no real constitutional issue here after that Court of Appeals’s decision. Well, I mean, you know, there is in the sense that Donald Trump believes we should simply negate the constitution. But there’s no serious argument here. People should realize presidents already have a certain amount of immunity.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:44
    It’s kind of hard to sue a president for an official act. The president vetoes a bill that you don’t like within his you know, constitutional role as the chief executive and, you know, veto’s a piece of like, you can’t, like, sue him because you didn’t like the veto. So what Trump was saying is the constitution functionally doesn’t exist. And I’m wondering the nightmare scenario for me is that four justices know it. And no, this is crap.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:15
    And they they go ahead and grant sir in any way just to drag out the clock. But I wonder if after the way that that court of appeals decision was written, you know, let’s try and be cheerful for a moment. You know, they all have their partners in beliefs, but on this, you know, this was two Democrats and one Republican, and they were unanimous on this.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:37
    Very conservative Republican, by the way. Yes. This is not a squish conservative. She’s well known. Okay.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:42
    Go ahead.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:43
    Right. So know, they may be sitting there saying, wow. How insanely partisan and in the tank for Donald Trump do we really wanna look? Which is why my gut feeling is after this. What are they left with?
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:54
    But to say, the appeals court said it all? We’re not gonna review this. We’re not gonna grant cert. That would be the honorable and legally sensible thing to do, but there’s a part me that worries that a couple of them are saying, yeah, you know, we just have to do this and help the guy out and get him past the election. But I I hope that’s not the case.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:14
    You could talk about the, you know, arguments that’s gonna take place tomorrow in front of the court on the fourteenth amendment disqualification, the Colorado case. Justice Roberts just doesn’t want them to be in the room. They do not wanna deal with this. They will do any, you know, legal pretzeling they need to to find an off ramp from this. So I personally believe that they should disqualify them, but I don’t think they will.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:36
    Okay. But so now they have these two things. The two things. And I think that not granting cert, you know, not taking this case up dragging their feet on on the immunity case is the safe way for them. They’re going to be thinking, how do we get out of this quagmire of shit political shit.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:56
    We just do not wanna be in the middle of this. You know, taken off ramp on Colorado, leave the appeals court in in place because, ultimately, This is gotta be the worst nightmare for Justice Roberts. And even even institutionalists, you know, look, there are two hard court ideal logs on that court. I mean, I could see Elito and Thomas who are basically saying, we have to save. We have to crash the plane into the mountain to save Donald Trump.
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:20
    But that’s two.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:21
    And I think, you know, for them to take it, says this fantastically rendered decision is bad somehow or needs review. And I think you’re right. I think the ripcord poll is to say everything’s been said. We’re not gonna take this up. If there is any concern about the legacy of the court, I mean, my god, take this up and to let this completely lunatic theory of government, dominate the Supreme Court’s proceedings through a presidential election, would really mean, I think even the conservatives have to recognize it sort of threatens the legitimacy of of the system because there’s nothing to take up.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:01
    I mean, the the appeals court was so clear. That this is a complete nutball. If Donald Trump hadn’t been a former president, and, you know, this is the kind of letter you get from some, you know, from some crank somewhere in America. So, you know, the president shouldn’t have complete godlike immunity for everything. But you have to take it seriously when it’s a former president arguing it for himself.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:25
    Going back to the beauty of the decision in the court of appeals, it’s like it reminded you No. You’re not crazy. This is stupid. You know, this is ridiculous.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:36
    That’s right. This is really, really done. And they said it in in respectful language but it was definitive. Look, nobody in the court with a possible exception of, say, Alito and and Thomas wakes up and thanking. Know what this court needs?
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:48
    You know what I need for my legacy? I need another Bush bullshit from Donald Trump. Bush V Gore case Yes. To deal with. I I wanna jump into that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:58
    Okay. So let’s move on. Okay. Because I thought that this was gonna be the only story that we would be talking about today, but then, of course, We have the incredible shambolic House Republican show yesterday. The Failure Theatre I mean, this is kind of amazing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:13
    Look, the part of this is entertaining. I mean, like, who who does not enjoy watching a clown car crash into a dumpster fight. I mean, right? It’s you you kinda wanna, like, you know, the dysfunction is is pretty busy. On the other hand, as I started morning, Joe, this morning, Unfortunately, the collateral damage is going to be immense, and it’s gonna last a long time.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:32
    The collateral damage for Ukraine for the mid for the border, for our image in the world. Your thoughts watching this party, which simultaneously I mean, for people who aren’t glued to C span, They not only then fail with their bogus impeachment of, you know, the Secret Podcast homeland security, Mayorcus, by a couple of votes. By the way, they’ll try it again next week, but it’s still a sham trial. And then the new speaker also then fails to pass the Israeli aid bill standalones. He had two embarrassing catastrophic defeats in a row while they’re in the process today of killing their own freaking border bill.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:11
    Can’t make this shit up.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:13
    You know, Charlie, for years, you and I have had a friendly competition or a friendly, reminder to each other about which one of us is gonna be the first to drop an f bomb So this time, I will be the first because I was watching this. And I was thinking of a movie I really like called a history of violence.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:30
    Okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:30
    With, vigel Mortensen and William hurt. Okay. William hurt is this Irish mobster who has you know, put out what he thinks is a very simple hit. And by the end of the movie, there’s, like, bodies everywhere and there’s blood and his mansion is a shambles, and he’s wandering around with a gun yelling. How do you fuck that up?
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:52
    All I had to think of the Republicans sort of, you know, running their hands through their hair and all these shell casings and, you know, all this damage and fire, you know, wander around saying, how do you It was a simple vote. You needed a majority of the members voting, and you screwed it up.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:08
    Mike Johnson is managing to make Kevin McCarthy look like a great tactician. Right. A strong and muscular speaker in comparison.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:16
    McCarthy is getting, like, tip o’neal status compared to this now. But it shows you that, first of all, on a more serious note, I think it says within the GOP, they don’t talk to each other. There’s not one unified Republican party. There’s, like, four Republican parties inside the house at this point.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:35
    Yeah. And each of them is
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:36
    a kind of mini caucus and they don’t level with each other because there was once upon a time, Charlie, when you and I were Republicans, you know, one of the things Republicans were really good at was not self owns, like this one, that it was, you know, once the party decided to march in one direction, They didn’t have a lot of back venture revolts. They didn’t have a lot of unexpected, you know, moments where votes fell apart. I mean, remember we used to chuckle. No. No.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:03
    We don’t do that. That’s Democrats that do that, you know, that go and get shanked.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:07
    It runs in disarray.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:08
    Right. They’re the ones that go and get shanked by their own members on the floor. Even tip o’neal had his problems here and there. Pelosi, I think, this is another case where we just have to say. She was a really strong house leader.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:20
    She was really good at counting votes and, you know, keeping people in line.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:24
    Well, and that and that’s being underlying how effective she was, you know, with every passing day. Right? Because she had the same majority at one point.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:31
    Even if you didn’t like what she was passing. Know, even if you were her opponent, you had to step back and say, damn, she’s kinda good at this. And so that’s one lesson from it. The other is that most of this Republican Party that you saw at work yesterday, they don’t care about policy. Issues don’t matter
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:48
    it’s all performative. No interest in actual governance, which, again, take the border. They’ve been telling us that there’s this existential immediate crisis. Right? Which have finally have legislation.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:58
    They get almost everything they want, and they’re not interested. But what they are interested in is doing a sham show trial for majorca, but then they can’t even pull that off. I mean,
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:07
    this is like going to Moscow and having this is like Vashinsky, you know, putting Bulwark on the stand, and then like, the judge and the tribunal acquits him and says, you know, Stalin went a little too far this time. I mean, this should have been a railroading that they were planning, they cared about it, they wanted it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:25
    Well, they shouldn’t have done it. I mean, the fact that they have hardly any majority look. Okay. So of my favorite moments was, Marjorie Taylor Green afterwards, basically complaining to reporters that Democrats tricked us because they had a sick guy who we didn’t think was gonna come and they and then they kept him. And then at the last minute, they were watching the votes.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:42
    And last minute, he came in and he voted Algreen What wait. He’s a congressman and he wrote a
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:48
    period of
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:48
    time. Okay. Marjorie is like now I am gonna make a prediction. Okay. I’m trying, like am I gonna go with the better angels or the more realistic angel?
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:58
    Mhmm. I was quite surprised that my fellow cheese head, Mike Gallagher, was one of the key people who, voted against this impeachment. And he made a very principled statement about how this was a misuse of impeachment power. Was very surprised because Mike Gallagher is one of the many, many, many Republicans, who, has been part of that, which Jonah Golberg, does describe accurately as the invasion of the body snatchers or as Ianesco would have said turned into a rhinoceros, but he did the right thing. So kudos to him.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:26
    I was surprised by that, but I’m sorry, Tom. He’s gonna cave. You know why I’m saying he’s gonna cave next week? Because that has to be the default setting. That we’ve learned from the last seven or eight years.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:39
    Anytime we’re asking the question, will Republicans hold the line or will they cave? What’s the always the answer, Tom? Always happens. And that’s my prediction.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:50
    It’s careerism and opportunism. And, you know, on this one, I think, you could make the argument that first of all, Trump didn’t get deeply involved in the my orcus thing, and that you could at least kind of bank a principled vote here without really hurting yourself.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:07
    I don’t know. They’re gonna be all over his ass. Just watch.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:11
    Okay. But then he concave on the border legislation, say it wasn’t enough.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:15
    Yeah. It’s
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:15
    not hard enough. But that’s what I mean about there’s no way you cannot negotiate with an opponent who doesn’t want anything.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:23
    Right. See, that’s the key thing. Okay. What do you want? We want this.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:27
    Democrats get nothing out of this bill. And by the way, I mean, if you wanna be really, really cynical about it, Biden gets kind of the best of all possible worlds. He looks like he’s addressing the issue. He gets Republicans to own the issue. Without having to sign a bill that would have antagonized people on his side of the aisle, there would have been a lot of progressives, you know, who would have been outraged by that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:49
    Now he’s got the talking points, got the issue. But Mike Johnson, you look at him and look at the Republicans the way they’ve handled this. And, I mean, this is really three-dimensional chess for idiots. I mean, it’s like we are being so clever in our rank cynicism. But as entertaining as I find this, and I do find this highly entertaining, I have to say that the real world consequences are horrible.
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:12
    And you correct me if you think I’m being too dark here. What we are about to do to Ukraine is gonna be an historic break in American faith. Now it’s not won’t be the first time this has happened. But Vladimir Putin, is winning a victory in the American political world that he was unable to obtain on the battlefield until now. And there’s a direct result of these games These fuckers are playing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:37
    Ukrainians are dying. More Ukrainians will die. And the consequences of Vladimir Putin rolling to victory in Ukraine are so grave, and we will live with them for so long. And it comes down to one thing. It comes down to a Republican party that is so enthralled with Donald Trump, that they’ve abandoned everything that even they thought six months ago.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:04
    I would even say it’s not that they’re enthralled to Donald Trump. It’s that they’re enthralled with living in Washington and keeping their jobs. They don’t wanna go home. It’s so sad to watch, you know, Stefanic and Vance and others and realize that, you know, there’s this undertone of, hey, I’m not going back to Missouri. I’m not going back to upstate New York.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:24
    And I think that that’s a big part of it. Yeah. I don’t think any of them have a deep enough commitment to any principle to even be in favor of Russia. That requires a decision. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:33
    I mean, this is more like instant oppositional defiance disorder. Well, what, you know, what would be good for Biden? Would aid for Ukraine help Biden? Know, if Ukrainian start winning, well, then we can’t do it. Biden wants it so we’re not gonna do it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:46
    And I think you’re lowballing how big of betrayal this is. Because I also think that it’s a betrayal that could eventually, you know, down the line for five, six years. I mean, it could pull us into war in Europe.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:58
    Oh, I I think so. I mean, this is a betrayal of our of not just of Ukraine, but of our allies. It raises questions about our commitment to NATO. Which will then be underlying even more dramatically if Donald Trump becomes the president of the United States. It emboldens the Chinese You don’t think that president Xi is watching this and thinking, you know what?
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:16
    Maybe I’m kinda hungry for, a little bit of, Taiwan.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:21
    There is so much that unravels from this one stupid cowardly opportunistic morally vacuous moment. That the Republicans are in, that it is existentially chilling to think it through. Not only do you have to worry about now about what happens in Asia, but I think One of the things Putin has been trying to prove for years is that NATO is a paper tiger, that NATO doesn’t really matter. And if he wins in Ukraine, I could see him saying, and now I’m going to take a small chunk of one of the Baltic states where there’s a lot of Russian speakers, and I’m gonna replay the Crimea. And because he doesn’t understand that NATO is real.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:03
    Article five is real, that the biggest military alliance in the history of humanity will take it seriously. You know, I think we could end up in a global disaster. And for what? I feel like the guy at the end of band of brothers. Remember the guy who stands up in the truck?
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:24
    I feel like I’m I’m yelling that at so many of these people. For what?
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:28
    For what?
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:29
    You servile goons. You know, what? For what are we doing here? I said this back in twenty sixteen. You win.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:39
    You have unified republican government. Donald Trump is president. Both chambers are controlled by Republicans. What do you want? And I can’t tell how many people, you know, would shrug and basically the answer was, well, as long as you’re mad, mission accomplished.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:52
    People may think you’re exaggerating. I have to tell you, as being part of this, I think that’s actually true. What do you want? I want us to be in power, not you, in in power. Okay.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:02
    So you used the term morally vacuous before, which is a great segue either into discussing JD Vance or Tucker Carlson. Why don’t you choose? Who do you wanna go with first?
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:12
    You know, Janey Vance’s moral vacuity is now just a matter of you know, ongoing record. I mean, I think what’s interesting about Tucker is that he’s combined to that. I mean, JD Vance has got what he wants for now. Right? He’s in the Senate.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:27
    He’s got the office. He’s got the driver.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:29
    He wants to be VP really
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:32
    Now he’s just kind of doing fan service, right, customer service.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:36
    Oh, no. No. No.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:37
    Really? Go ahead.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:38
    No. He’s running for vice president. He’s running for vice president.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:41
    That’s just the phanic.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:42
    Well, yes. And what they’re doing is they’re in competition who can be the most slavishly loyal who can mimic the same words. But I thought that when JD Vans went on ABC, and started suggesting that, you know, presidents can defy the US Supreme Court. Remember, you know, when Andrew Jackson, you know, wanted to, you know, begin the genocide of Indians. You know, he said, as Marshall has made his opinion.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:04
    Now let him enforce it. Okay. That may be that little cloud on the horizon, Tom, but you and I both know how that comes. And a guy like Donald Trump, you know, let’s say he loses in the Supreme Court. How long will it take, Margot to go, yeah, exactly why should we follow justice Roberts has ruled now let him enforce it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:24
    So that’s dangerous.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:25
    So We’ve taken about JD Vance. His vacuousness is dangerous. Because he is a sitting senator. You know, maybe I’ve just gotten numb to it because it’s his metamorphosis from, you know, sort of I’m the kid from the tough town that’s gonna say these hard moral truths, and I’m gonna refer to Trump as, you know, cultural heroin and bad for my people to this thing he’s turned into now, this kind of parody, this kind of caricature of himself. Just before we went on, I tweeted something about I said, somebody made a it had a picture of Stefanic and Vance and saying, these guys have, you know, sold their souls.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:02
    And he said there was actually a cold check, the Night Stalker episode about a senator who sold his soul, and it wasn’t as over the top As this was. Actually happening in Washington right now. Like, art couldn’t approach life at that point.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:18
    Okay. Let me just give you a a little digression about why I I worry so much about what JD Vance is now saying about ignoring the Supreme Court because And again, it’s it’s the analogy of the little cloud on the on the horizon because I remember pretty much the exact moment that I first heard in late twenty twenty after the election that crazy Paul Gossar. Remember Paul Gossar? You know, one of the dumbest members of Congress ever
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:42
    stella office.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:43
    It was behind a lawsuit that was and I’m, you know, glossing over some of the details obviously, but put in a lawsuit saying that, you know, the vice president can actually refuse to count these electoral votes on January sixth. And everybody thought it was a joke. I remember I thought it was a joke. I didn’t take it seriously at all. But now think where that idea, which seemed so fringe.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:05
    At that point, think of the consequences now for January sixth and the big lie to the moment we’re in right now. Okay. So let’s talk about Tucker Carlson. Donald Trump is Vladimir Putin’s most valuable, useful idiot. Let’s stipulate that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:20
    Okay? But Tucker Carlson, going to Moscow, to suck up to Vladimir Putin. And while he’s there suggesting that, well, if Western journalists had done this sort of thing, when there are western journalists who are actually in Vladimir Putin’s prisons for trying to do the kind of honest reporting that Tucker Carlson is no longer capable of doing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:47
    Evan Gerskovich is a Russian speaking on the ground. Get the story. First hand has been living there. Works for the wall street journal, not exactly a, you know, raving lefty rag, and he’s, you know, been in prison for months. And by the way, Tucker Carlson, well, I’m a journalist.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:08
    No. You’re not. I mean, this is why when we started talking about Vance and and Carlson, you know, the thing that I think really defines Carlson is his needy ambitiousness that, you know, he has to be I mean, this is a guy who started his career saying I’m gonna be the next George well. I wear bow ties. I write serious conservative articles and has now turned into this kind of pathetic propagandist who swears that he’s a journalist.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:38
    I mean, it’s really something to see, a horrifying transformation.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:43
    Mhmm. Getting
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:44
    people that knew him back in the day say he was was never that nice of a guy, but at least in a public persona, to go from, you know, a moderate conservative to one of Putin’s scribes is quite something. But there are Russian journalists who have had to flee Russia and are living in the West who can’t go back because they won’t just go to jail. They’ll be killed. Right. Now if Carlson asks Putin about that and tries to get Gerskovich out and puts him on the spot Good.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:13
    I’ll applaud Tucker Carlson for using his in with Moscow. I don’t think that’s going to happen, but I hope it does. But the fact that you would go over there because there’s no way to get there. And I’m sorry. I know I’m going on.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:24
    Now I’m doing my Russia head thing, but there’s no way to go over there without a whole bunch of precondition.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:30
    Oh, yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:30
    The Russians just don’t do things that way. This is why people never understood what was going on with Edward snowden. They don’t probably don’t know what’s going on with Carlson. You don’t just show up in Moscow. You don’t just go get a visa and hop a flight to done with yet of a If you’re coming, they know you’re coming, and deals have already been worked out.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:47
    And I’m I’m sure that was the same with Snowton, and I’m sure it’s the same with Carlson. And it’s really obscene when you think that one of Carlson’s own fellow citizens, well, a few of Carl since fellow citizens, because let’s not forget Paul Wailen and others who aren’t channeling Trump theft Charlie Sykes say Charlie Sykes that cannot be decided in a Russian court and that have been gigantic sentences that are clearly political statements. So, you know, for Carlson to do this to just and then to have the balls, to have the pure brass to say, well, I’m a real journalist, and I’m just doing this because Western journalists won’t. No, Tucker. Western journalists don’t do it because they tried to and they’re in jail, and Russian journalists can’t do it because they’re over here trying nothing to get killed.
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:31
    Well, okay. So I’m gonna beat my horse one more time here because you know, I remember, shortly after the Russian invasion of of Ukraine and the public opinion polls were over showing that Republican, the rank and file Republicans were overwhelmingly, in favor of our AD Ukraine, were supportive of Ukraine, were opposed to Russia, and yet there was still Donald Trump out there And I remember at the time thinking, don’t look at the numbers. Don’t listen to the leadership. What’s going on with the id of the right wing? What’s happening in the entertainment wing?
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:00
    So Tucker Carlson seem like an outlier and is still kind of an outlier sucking up to Vladimir Putin, but now look where the Republican party is. Where is the leadership of the Republican Party? You’d like to think that it’s the grown ups, you know, who we’re saying we won’t we will not abandon Ukraine, but the modern Republican Party just know and again, this is true over and over again. You have to take those ideas seriously. You have to understand that Donald Trump is not always leading the band.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:31
    He sometimes seeing where the band is going, and then he tries to get out there in front. This is just crucial to understand about these guys. Should we do a slow trombone for Rana, McDaniel, Rami? Rami?
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:41
    Well, let’s add one more thing about the adults in the in the Republican Party because
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:44
    Okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:45
    Ukraine and Israel could have been funded through the border deal that a couple of grown ups in the Senate worked out because the Senate, I think, is always the more responsible bunch, that’s why we have a Senate. And once again, the Republicans can’t take yes for an answer. You ask them what they want and what they want is whatever the opposite of whatever they think you want.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:08
    Yeah. Well, that’s true. So not the most important story of the day. Ronald McDaniel, who sold everything. I mean, even give a per name.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:15
    Give a per name. I mean, really, you wanna say is that in the terms of the competition, you know, how will I abase myself? Most people don’t actually have to like Okay. I won’t mention that I’m related to the Romney family, but you knew she was dead the moment that Donald Trump withdrew the favor of heaven. So it looks like she is out.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:33
    And so now the harrowing of the RNC will continue a pace. And I think the smart money ought to be on some kind of Trump loyalist election denier. In fact, if you are not an election denier, if you do not think that the January sixth rioters are hostages, you have no chance to get that job. So you know, by process of elimination, you know it’s going to be someone like that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:00
    Yeah. You know, it’s interesting that one of the things this tells us about the modern republican party is it hasn’t internalized being a a national minority. And this was this is just amazing because in twenty sixteen, And Republicans would complain that, you know, oh, we’re frozen out and the culture hate I’m like, look, the numbers say that Republicans have a majority of the elected seats across this country. You are the majority party. But the idea that they could then lose elections is now so alien to them.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:32
    Yeah. Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:32
    If we lose, it’s catastrophic and it must be because of cheating.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:37
    You’re right. But I let me play with another idea here. That letting the the other side get into power is so catastrophic that we don’t care whether there was cheating or not the allegations of cheating are pretextual. The it is a pretext. So this is one of the reasons why with the big line, It’s like you can refute this lie.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:56
    Well, this didn’t happen in Detroit. This didn’t happen here. This didn’t happen here. Look what the evidence actually says. And it doesn’t matter.
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:02
    Because they Will Saletan shift it because ultimately, they didn’t really believe that there was cheating, but they really believe is that they have an entitlement to power because the other side is so loathsome and dangerous that they must be kept out no matter what, no matter what it takes.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:22
    These are two delusions that mesh well. You’re right. It’s now power by any means necessary, which, of course, is undemocratic, anti constitutional anti American. But there’s a comforting myth behind it of we really are the real Americans, the real majority, the real people. You know, this is a classic authoritarian and even fascist belief that there is a real people that nation has a real people and that everybody else is just dare we say vermin.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:51
    I mean, Ronald Reagan leaves office talking about the importance of immigration and the American ideas, Shoney City, M and L. And now we have this Republican Party that says, that basically, you know, we are a hard core of anti democratic cranks who refuse to lose an election because only we understand what’s best for the country and our opponents are criminals and communists and, you know
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:16
    This point about the real people that these are the real Americans, and then there’s this alien presence out there that is trying to take our country away from this is visceral. This is very real. This is very, very real.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:30
    It’s growing among people who don’t spend a lot of time among their fellow Americans or among those who are different from them.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:37
    Part of that big sword, it’s easy now to avoid being around those other Americans. It is. We’ve had this massive demographic sort, and then we, of course, we now live on our own silos. So it’s more it’s easier now than ever before to not engage with them.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:52
    Especially if you choose to and that your pipeline to reality is is your television and your computer screen. Yeah. This is the the the inevitable not the inevitable, but a likely outcome of years of the bowling alone problem of people, you know, not moving to places because they don’t like political environment in one place, opposed to another, but it’s incredibly exceedingly dangerous. But I just wanna add you know, that Charlie Sykes, I have no sad trombone to play for Ronald McDaniel. I think, you know, she will vanish now and into an obscurity that she deserves because Richly deserves.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:33
    Richly deserves. I mean, it just was incredible. What a kind of a moral nullity she was. I mean, she made Raints Pribest seemed, you know, like, an old iron fisted party boss by comparison. I mean, the RNC became an appendage of Donald Trump, but I think the other thing that they’re gonna look for is not just an election than I are.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:53
    But someone who’s going to turn the considerable financial resources of the Republican Party to Donald Trump’s personal use.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:00
    Oh, absolutely. Including paying legal bills and perhaps settlements.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:04
    Legal bills, you know, all of that stuff so that the party will function basically as a support system for Donald Trump rather than I mean, it’s one more chapter in the Republicans ceasing to function as a political party.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:18
    It is. And I think there are more chapters yet to come. And hopefully, you and I can talk about them in some different form, but I gotta I wanted to thank you, Tom, You know, as we were planning this, this final week, you know, I I I told our fantastic producer, Katie Cooper, I said, you know, let’s Let’s get in some of our our mainstays, and I don’t know anybody who is more of a mainstay to this podcast than you have been from the very, very beginning. And And I have to say, and I’m not exaggerating that in this very stressful period, period of isolation, it has been a lifeline to me to be able to sit here and talk with someone like you, and I appreciate not only your insight, but your friendship your advice, and they mean a great deal to me, Tom. And I hope you you understand that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:03
    And by the way, you once said to me the most flattering thing any podcast guest has ever said. Which is when I wrote a bar together, one’s actually in person, which is weird. And you said that when we do the podcast, sometimes you forget we’re on the podcast because we’re just talking to each other. Wow. That is the that’s that moment where you don’t even think that there’s other people out there, and you and I have had that relationship.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:25
    I’m very, very grateful for it, Tom.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:27
    Well, you know that I I feel the same way, Charlie, and I wanted to tell you one of the things that I found most important about our friendship was the way it began because when the Never Trump movement began, when we were all, you know, guys like me, right? I was not in the political world. I was a professor. Kind of occasional gadfly, publish a op ed here and there. But I was a, you know, lifelong Republican and worked in Washington for a Republican and all that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:56
    When the time started to come to say, you know, my god, this is really going to happen. What am I going to do? You were one of the people where the price you were willing to pay because I think this is something people don’t understand that a lot of prominent conservatives, not people like me, Yeah. I got, you know, people threatened to fire me, and I got death threats and all that stuff. But that, you know, the the people who were mainstays of the conservative movement really paid a price professionally, personally, you know, in every way.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:27
    And it was inspiring because it you were one of the people where I could look and say, okay. I’m not crazy.
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:34
    We’re not the crazy ones.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:35
    You know? Like, this sensible guy from from Wisconsin, this right winger, You know, this guy was very far on the right. And and in some ways, you know, you were on some issues, you were further the right than I was. We we would have had disagreements about those things. But I was able to hear you and watch you as you did these things and took these chances.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:57
    And I could say, I’m not crazy. This is the right thing to do. There are sensible conservative people, very conservative people who are not going to do this, who are not going to get on this train. And Charlie Sykes can’t tell you for a lot of us, you know, who were coming to the Never Trump realization and, you know, back in the day, That was really important to have examples of sensible guys like you saying, we don’t have to do this. And in fact, we shouldn’t do this.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:27
    And it’s the and it’s the wrong thing to do. And I wanna thank you for that, Charlie, because over the years, you know, maybe we’ve played the same role each other, but I feel the same way about you that every now and then I come on here and we talk and I go, yeah. Right.
  • Speaker 1
    0:42:40
    I’m we’re
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:40
    not crazy. But this is actually a sensible thing because I think the attacks on the Never trumpers in those years really were kind of gaslighting that you just don’t understand that it’s not gonna be like that. We turned out to be more right than we knew, sadly. And I’m glad that we maintained this kind of you know, this kind of circle of sanity that I think is really important for helping all of us stay, you know, stay on on the right path. And I wanted to thank you for that And for this show, Charlie, because that was an important part of it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:13
    Well, thank you so much. The circle of sanity. I just think that is so important. And I wonder if it would reiterate that, you know, given how frustrating and, disconcerting and soul crushing in the last, you know, seven years has been for some of us, to be able to realize that we’re not alone, which is why I think there’s a tremendous appetite for a community. What happens is is that, you know, one by one, people get picked off.
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:36
    Because they realize, okay, I would be willing to take a stand, but I’m not gonna go off the cliff by myself. Well, we’re not going off a cliff, but you’re not alone. You’re not the crazy ones. And I think that that’s very, very important. I think that’s gonna continue.
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:48
    Whatever happens, whether we’re in the twilight or whether we’re, like, at the new dawn of the restoration, don’t be ground bound by it because it is so easy. And I think these personal ties, these personal connections, and this is what I’m really grateful for, You know, since, twenty sixteen, when I left the radio, the number of people that I have met now and been able to establish relationship with that I never would have encountered before. And then we’ve had these conversations that I don’t think we ever would have had, has been a good thing, has been a valuable thing. I’m grateful for that opportunity, although horrified by what created that opportunity, if you if you understand. So thank you so much, Tom.
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:27
    And I think we all reorganized ourselves and rediscovered what’s important, Charlie.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:32
    We rediscovered and we rethought about what it was. I mean, that that’s part of that clarifying moment. What do we really want? What is really valuable to us? And you sorted it out.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:42
    What are we believing? Other people had very, very different answers. So, Tom, see you around very soon.
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:47
    Thank you for everything, Charlie Sykes
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:49
    for all of you, I think you know that coming Monday in this seat will be my colleague, Tim Miller, who’s gonna be taking over to the daily pod Cast, and I don’t need to introduce him to you. He is a supremely talented individual, and I think he’s gonna have a lot of fun here. And, as you know, he’s got more than a few hot takes, so Tim Miller, you’ll be taking over the podcast on Monday morning. I’m gonna be back for one last show on Friday. So stick around that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:45:20
    The Bower podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.
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