The Soft Bois of Populist Nationalism

Welcome to the next level. I’m JVL here with my best friends, Sarah Longwell and Timothy Miller of the Bulwark. This is the first time out from behind the pay wall all the the podcast is now being made for you. The people, we’re gonna we’re gonna amass communicating is something like that. So, listen, two things.

First of all, mash the subscribe button and also go over to the bulwark dot com and sign up for all the great stuff. We we do stuff over there every day. We have stories and podcasts and videos and and it’s almost all free. So you should go over and and join us at the bulwark dot com. Sarah, Tim, how are you guys today?

Do you

wanna do any, like, preamble about the fact that this this is a podcast that we have done behind the paywall now for, like, a year at least. Right?

It feels like longer. I

don’t know how long

it’s been. Seven years ago, Sarah. Oh, yeah.

Well and so it is liberated from the paywall for the first time. Did you guys see the new cover art? It’s our faces.

Oh, god. No. It is. That’s what I’m making sure that’s all. They have

me doing blue steel. It’s outstanding.

It was like when they did the not my party logo without asking me for approval. And I was like the devil. I have like devil ears that’s going up. I really didn’t

like to frame it down. I I

I don’t have a preemid. I can do a little bit of a preemidonna. Can I not? My

staff has so much respect for me. I was, like, absolutely not. Just wanna ask her. That

was not

that picture of my face. You know

what? This is this is a chance for you too, Sarah. Lead by example. And by showing that you don’t care about such trivialities, to then make it so that everybody else in the organization also feels like they can’t care about trivialities. That’s

true. I mean, what I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t really put up a fight. I was just like, alright. Whatever. Yep.

Exactly. Alright. Well, But the

magic has been happening. I think the important thing to understand for new listeners is that I like to interrupt and that this magic you’re hearing right now has been happening now for for many, many years, and the people have been demanding it. The people have been demanding that we bring this public Mostly the people on Sierra’s paid staff have been demanding that we bring this public. They are they’re of the opinion that this is now gonna be I don’t know, up there with maybe

Michael

Babara in the daily or who knows right now, the levels that we the heights that we could reach. So please please share it with, you know, your most bulwarky friend. Whatever

level it is, it’s the next one.

Alright. Let’s go here. We’re taping on Tuesday afternoon. We were supposed to have the final January sixth committee hearing on Wednesday. That is now going to be postponed because there is a hurricane which is heading directly towards Florida.

It’s amazing. All of these models do not show a little bulbous thing where it could possibly veer off into Alabama or something. They just show a normal track. It’s wonderful to live in a world where where that happens. So I I don’t wanna spend too much time on January sixth thing, but But, Tim, there is some new footage of Roger Stone out from the documentary.

Will you take this away so we can talk about it for two minutes?

Yeah. Are we listening to it? Should we listen to Raj? It’s quite good. I mean, it’s quite you you won’t be surprised.

Oh, you’re

through his ass. You simply ask it. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, you’ll the producers will make it appear.

Yeah.

We’ll get to it. You you you will not be surprised as a little preview for this to to hear Roger, and this is not deep eloquent thinking about the values of nationalist compulism. K? That you’re not getting the Clairemont review here. It’s a little rough talk.

So let’s just let’s just go ahead and check it out. Excellent. Of

my The violent. What? The voting. Let’s get right. Get rid of violence.

Get rid of him. I am. True to kill. C c n n tifa. True to kill.

Come. Come with this bullshit. Mister.

Should kill. Now, I don’t that doesn’t that doesn’t that doesn’t sound like just people who have legitimate concerns about our election security to me, especially given that that audio was was from before the before the election. Actually, the audio is from before the election. So they hadn’t even they hadn’t even come up with the reason why, you know,

the YUGO Chavez had had broken into our election machines yet.

Yeah. My top thoughts on this is is just the hubris of these fucking guys? Like, this is now the second documentary film crew that we had following these people around, the Alex Holder, film crew that was following around the Trump’s that the January sixth committee got. Now we have this this is a Danish film guy. Imagine being around your stone and and feeling so above the law knowing that Donald Trump will pardon you, that you can just kinda pale around with crowdboys and oath keepers and just you know, chat about shooting to kill, chat about undermining the election, the plans to violently overthrow our democracy see and be like, hey, you know the day.

We can let the dayans get this baby on tape. Tim, why are you so obsessed with Trump? Why don’t you just move on? It’s a good question. It’s

like it’s like he broke your brain or something. I do feel broken. Right. Why can’t you just plan for the post Trump Republican future?

Is Roger gonna be involved in

this? Sarah, thoughts?

I mean, Roger’s a bad person. And wait, Tim, just to go back, where was this? Like, what what what what was the context under which he was saying this? He’s

hanging out with a bunch of Proud Boys.

Yeah. He’s in the car. They’re driving in the car, hanging out with a bunch of Proud Boys, and a Danish filmmaker is covering is following their efforts. The election hasn’t happened yet, but they’re talking about how they shouldn’t wait for the why wait for the votes? You know, don’t even need to wait for the votes.

Let’s just get to the violence. Let’s just get to the violence.

Yeah. So there’s also a second piece of audio with him with another group of Proud Boys in which Roger Stone is saying that it was important that Trump just come out and declare that he’s won because you know, the votes might not show that, but possession is nine tenths of the law and make them try to take it from him. And you know, Sarah, what do you think about all this? This is great for democracy. It’s totally cool.

Right?

So this isn’t the only time where somebody has said Like, what Trump should do is just come out and declare victory. Mhmm. Someone else said it. Bannon. Bannon.

Right? So, like, in the bowels of Trump’s what are actually his quite close advisors, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, the people who’ve surrounded him, there was this sort of premeditated theory that even if he loses, he’s gonna out and declare victory. What’s interesting about the Roger Stone piece is the violence part where they seemed ready, right, to have proud boys and the oath keepers show up and cause violence and mayhem. And so it doesn’t surprise me that the January sixth committee would want to highlight the fact that there was this, you know, group of when you think about two sort of aftermath of it all. It’s so brazen.

These guys are out there on film talking about their premeditated violence, their premeditated desire to say that the election the Trump should just declare victory no matter what. And yet, they still had the audacity when it all went down to be like, that was antifa. Let’s look at those black lives matter, guys. It’s attacking the capital under false flags to make us republicans look bad. You know, and this is this really is where the bifurcated media gives such an advantage to all of these, like, lunatics, because it’s like hard to actually piece it all together or like you piece it all together a year later, we hear this and it should be smoking gun kind of territory.

Right? Like, these guys were planning the violence. They were planning to declare victory. It all happened just like they were planning it to happen. And yet, we’re all like, yeah.

Roger Stone’s lunatic. That tracks. Well, it it’s

this shows to me. This is like following an EPA investigation on a toxic leak in a river. Right? So you start with this. Who’s the river?

The river is the Republican Party. Mhmm. So you you have this stuff at the source. We have Roger Stone asking for violence. And and saying, we’re just gonna declare it.

And then it moves downriver into the Kari Lake parts of the world wherever he just takes us given that, of course, the election was stolen. We need to jail the people who were counting the votes because they, you know, locked them up because the the secretary of state never certified this stolen election.

Then

you get Glenn Youngkin running out to Arizona. Mister good Republican, mister Youngkin model, mister the future, mister you gotta like Trump a little bit if you’re gonna eventually not like Trump at all. And you have him out there. And, you know, it is like three degrees of of Steve Bannon or something. And you wind up Did you

intentionally do this metaphor so that the river landed into the Kari Lake —

Yes. — versus the dug down side of it? You know, they are My brain works on

multiple levels, Timothy. That works for me. So the question I think going to this is the metaphor is, like, is it stone that is at the core of this? Right, or or to the extent how how close does Trump to it? And we don’t wanna beat the metaphor of death.

Right? But for a long time now, and this is the same exact thing that happened in the Mueller investigation with Russia. Right? It’s the notion that Trump is too stupid to have plotted this. Like, Trump isn’t actually doing

this. Right? Like, you know, he is hoping it happens and rooting for it. Right? He’s rooting for Russia to attack Hillary.

He’s rooting for these people who are charging the

capital, but he’s not really plotting it. He’s not really doing it. Right? This is your I don’t know where this is along our river, somewhere between Lake and Youngkin’s argument for what’s happening. But it’s the same guy in both situations.

It was Roger Stone that’s talking to Assange. It’s Roger Stone that’s plotting with the people that that were

the active participants in the insurrection that were that were spurring on, you know, the the great and good Americans to find people who just showed up that day to cheer

on the president and ended up finding themselves in the capital, like the people that were actively plotting a stone with them. And, like, Are we sure that Trump and Stone

aren’t talking ever? I’m I’m sure they are talking. Yeah.

So this is where the January sixth committee stuff like, remains still relevant. Right? And I think we’re the investigative portion

of the January sixth committee whenever they come back in,

like that that element matters. Right? The the extent to which, you know, Trump is not just talking with Meadows, not just throwing a temper tantrum, not just having a speech just pressuring the secretary of state. I mean, he’s guilty, guilty, guilty across the board on all that. But but, like,

how much he’s actually also talking to the violent riotters. Well, but this is how racketeering works. Right? I mean, you know, skinny Joey Marlino at the top of of the organization does not know every single person. That’s real person.

That’s real person. Philly mob stories. He does not know every single business that, you know, Mikey knuckles is shaking down

on a daily basis. Is Mikey knuckles

critical? Knows that Mikey knuckles is doing you know, Mikey knuckles is the only he’s got do and and doing his job. And this is you know, so there are things which I’m sure Trump knew, things which Trump wanted to, you know, to n c a things which you wanted to have plausible deniability about. You saw this in the Maggie Haven clip. Right?

Maggie Abramsman had an excerpt from her book on in the Atlantic this weekend. And, you know, like, there was there was a moment in it where Trump is talking about Sydney Powell. And Sydney Powell’s defense against the dominion lawsuits being that she shouldn’t have been taken seriously. And he thought that was weak. And he had, like, the legal premier ready for that.

And, you know, I I forget the exact phrase, but, you know, there’s a legal term of ours. There’s All you have to say is that to to the best of my knowledge and understanding that these things were true.

He understands how difficult it is to prove intent. Yeah. And that proving intent requires like proof of forethought or like an understanding of what you’re doing and he seemed to have that particular legal loophole or not legal. It’s not a loophole, but it’s like — Yeah. — he understood how you get around that.

Alright. So we’ll we’ll get the final January sixth hearing at some point. Before

we move on to the next category, I’m I’m sorry, but some I’ve just received something in my Slack that I think that it’s worth discussing, which is the new next level imagery. And and

I also You just received that in my Slack. We look at your top of my mind. I know. But

I didn’t actually

seen it yet. What did you say? Okay.

And now I’m looking JVL, and I I think that if you said to an average viewer that there’s there are two gay people on this fixtures than only one heterosexual. I I don’t know how many people would not choose you. I mean, you have a very kind of a feminine magician vibe. On the new I feel like On the new r one,

Bob. Bob Blue from this.

Bob Blue? You do. You I feel the final step down

on, and I’m getting everything. Job is not That’s the the great joke of that. Bob goes blue for Ben Stiller’s character in the, like, the fourth and fifth, the Netflix seasons of arrested development. GOB and Ben sellers Tony Wonder become a couple.

Oh, really? I never made it to season five that you’d kind of do it as a GOB. This is gay GOB. This is right. It’s I think that’s the vibe you’re given off.

It’s great. I’m about to do the sort of destiny

routine. Alright. Let’s move on. You

got hold on. You guys are missing the main point of this artwork, which is that we all look like corpses. Yeah.

Well, there is some color adjustment. Yeah. We all look good color adjustment. It’s been a long few years. So I get I get the vibe that they’re trying to send, which is these people have been beaten down by the Trump years and their their years.

To report from the grid. We’re gonna

try to go to another level above where they are now. Alright. So, listen, I wanna talk midterms. I wanna talk about both Ohio insulin yet because there are two interesting things happening. In Ohio, so we talked, I think, it was last week about the KEMP Warmock voters.

Right? This is on or not quite yet out from behind the paywall show. Al, there were a whole bunch of people in Georgia who were gonna vote for Brink attempt for governor and then we’re gonna vote for Rafael, warnack, for senator. There’s a lot more people like that in Ohio. Where Mike DeWine is up by twenty three points.

He’s at fifty five percent. And Tim Ryan is it forty six percent leading J. D. Vance by by three points, which means that even if you don’t believe the polls, even if you believe that the Ryan Vance race is closer than it looks or that advances ahead a little bit. It means that there like, one in I tried doing the math, like, one in ten to wine voters, is voting for Tim Ryan.

That’s nuts. Well, people in Ohio don’t like JD Vance.

Yeah. It’s not nuts when you think that Sherrod Brown won in twenty eighteen by six points. Like, Trump won in twenty twenty by eight, Sherrod Brown one and eighteen by six, which means that and I’ve I’ve said this about Ohio. And if you listen to the Focus Group episode, we did In Ohio, we talked to a bunch of Trump twenty twenty voters and Sherrod Brown eighteen voters. And they were mostly going for Ryan.

And the reason was and actually, it was it was pretty interesting. One of the main things was they did not like Vance. They did not trust Vance. But also, Ryan had been on the airwaves mostly unopposed over the summer and he’d landed a couple of doosies. And one of them so first of all, he’s running an excellent campaign.

Right. Just a tremendous door knocking, I’m your neighbor, like, I’m from here. He’s a

good candidate too. He’s a good candidate running a great campaign. And

just looking on the ads, not and a shamelessly good, kind of the stuff you have to do that we’re always asking Democrats to do, like, he was running ads that had Tucker Carlson praising him.

Yep. Right?

There are a lot of Democratic staffers who are like, oh, they get a little that makes them feel a little uncomfortable, a little queasy. They won’t go there. Like, he’s going

there. He’s counting that he he voted with Trump on trade. He says he will vote I hope vote with whichever political party isn’t gonna outsource their jobs, the jobs of his friends and neighbors. He’s got a great one. Or he’s walking through his neighborhood and he’s saying, like, I think about these people every single time I vote.

Like, it’s really good. But one of the ads that everybody remembered and talked about in this group was that he was nailing Vance on the fact that he had a scam opioid charity. So he had this charity where he was supposedly collecting money for get to opioid, you know, recovery services, and zero dollars. Like, for some reason, it did some polls. This this group And I didn’t really know about this, but the women were talking about it in the group and about how they went and ran it down and looked it up, and they were like, and it’s true, and it’s terrible.

So I would say he’s done a good job of driving up Vance’s negatives over the summer in a way where, look, I still think Republicans come home. I think overall. Generally, I have a theory of Republicans coming home at the end, but I don’t know. This is one this is one of the craziest races where I think he does have a punch your chance and in part just because, you know, campaigns matter and candidates matter. Yeah.

And I do think, you know, Ohio, those so the one polling cost before I kind of getting the good news is, like, the types of voters that these polls have seemed to be missing are,

you know, the sort of most stereotypical Trump in the diner at New York Times voter. Right? Like, the down scale white working class types that probably don’t like to whine that much even, you know, because you got cut a little bit on COVID and don’t trust anybody, certainly any somebody from some other state calling them on the phone to

tell them what they really think. And so that I and if you look at where the polls have missed, over the past couple of cycles. It it has been mostly these kind of white working class in upper Midwest, but even kind of in Maine with Collins and and you seen this in place like that more than in other places. So so it’s probably not right in the sense that Vance is probably leading Ryan. That’s closer.

But to your point, even if you unscrew the poles a little bit, like the gap is pretty significant. And and to me, the telling thing if if the Meghan nationalist theory of the case was true, right, that there’s this big appetite for Vance, Holly, masters, you know, nationalism that, like, doesn’t have Trump’s, like, skill at petroleum stuff that that is more you know, the types of, you know, nerds who sit

in conference rooms at Clairemont and try to put some ideology around Trumpism and, you know, some sheen of seriousness around nationalist populism and are putting forth these candidates funded by

Peter Teal you you would think that there would be some voters who would cut the other way. Right? That that that group could be able to reach into, you know, some of your Reagan Democrat types who maybe don’t like DeWine. Right? And there’s not like any evidence of the fact that that is happening.

Masters is running way behind where lake is, for example, Vance running way behind, Like, so the encouraging thing for me about this is even if Vance tweaks out of victory, it is not exactly a bullish

sign for the for the for the scariest vertical inside our politics, which is these, you know, this new right Let me let me twist the knife a little bit here. Okay. Great.

I think if Josh Mandel had been the nominee, he’d be five points ahead of wherever Vance is right now. Right. The Republican institutions which which went to the mattresses to try to muscle JD Vance through. The truth is he’s such a bad candidate and such a dope that, you know, in his campaign, has been horrendous. I mean, he’s barely there.

He’s like yelling at Iran, Europe and going on pilgrimage

is fucking smell it. Two, he’s kind of the little beard and he’s like a he feels like the beardy dude that walked into the VC firm and Calo foreignia and, like, wanted to be a fake Midwestern and Spangali. Like, he he feels like what he is. Right? Which is, like, not a real advocate for, like, working class industrial or high.

That’s right. People can smell that shit. And and Mandela’s kind of phony, but was it phony?

It’s a trial.

Typical. Who’s It’s like a more typical Republican way. Yeah.

Well, like the way Lake is. Right? Like Lake is also a phony.

Yeah.

But she’s like Mandel, a phony. We’re like they’re really committed to it. Right. And then, like federal

level of commitment.

That’s right. And so, like, if you go back and, you know, if you really dig them up

eight years ago. Sorry. Hold on. Sasha Baron Cohen, Levels of Commitment. Like, they are living the character — Right.

— walking Phoenix levels. They’re going on letterman in character. Like

and they they to the point where, like, they believe it now themselves to some degree. We’re, like, JD Vance and all these other soft boys. That are running as the sort of nationalist, populist types. These are different shades of something that are not the same. So on one hand, right, what works is when you run as sort of the multi ethnic, multiracial working class coalition.

Right? And this is something that I think like Marco Rubio has sort of at least understood, like, okay, this is what we’re going for and, like, sometimes we’re gonna side with the unions against big corporations because the corporations are woke, and that’s different from independent businesses, which we still support. That’s different from sort of the nationalist, populist, thing that masters and Holly and those guys are doing where it’s like a war on big tech and war. But it’s all very performative and it’s all kind of for Yale and people like that doesn’t connect with the working class ethos. They like they hear it.

They’re like, yeah, you’re right about the woke stuff, and I don’t agree with that. But it doesn’t it doesn’t hit people the same way, and it’s why it’s hard for Vance, is because Ryan does have that multi ethnic, multiracial working class ability to connect. And like, that’s why he’s kinda eaten into their the the Trump margins. Trump was able to connect with that multiracial working class thing. Not because — Yeah.

— not because he was exactly like that, but even though he was very rich, but he stood and had soft hands, but he was still He was still somebody that they saw as kind of like them because he was very accessible in the way that he talked. Just like He was

very famous.

Diane, yeah. He

was very famous.

Tabloydy is WWE and he is very famous. Right? But but JD is more of the put to firefighter point of it. It’s like the severely conservative Mitt Romney moment at CPAC. He’s like, I’m severely populist.

You know? It’s like, you can just sense that he whips on it when when he’s like, I add, to be honest with you, Steve, I don’t care what happens with the Ukrainians. I don’t give a fuck what happens with the Ukrainians. Now, I working the people who are listening that are kinda like, I don’t know. I I I was I was with you on the fact that, like, we shouldn’t be fighting wars over there on behalf of the globalist, but, like, I don’t care about the Ukrainians.

It’s like a little try hard. Right? Like, I do we do care about the Ukrainians. We don’t like the Russians. We don’t like the local military.

Right? I you know, it’s like you’re you’re you’re sort of trying to hit it, but but you’re trying a little too hard and and veering off the edge. And people just can smell it’s not an accident that all of

these big, populist, tough guys are, like, Curtis Garvey and JD Vance. Right? I mean, they’re, like, the most defeat. Whatever. Okay.

Into Pennsylvania. So this is the other interesting piece of Poland that I want to talk about. Charlie highlighted this in his outstanding newsletter, which is free every day with no ads in it or anything. Everybody should go sign go to the bulwark dot com. Sign up for Charlie’s newsletter.

There is this huge likability gap in Pennsylvania. And the the bigger one is between Doug Master Driano and Josh Shapiro. Mastriano is at about negative twenty four net likability, Shapiro plus twelve. That was that bad? I I think it’s not great, Bob.

About

the same as yours, Tim. Mhmm. It’s, like, right, the same.

Negative twenty four. I’ve been creeping up. Okay? I’ve been creeping

up. And and with Federman Oz, Federman Oz also sorry, at negative twenty four. And with funny years that Mastriano has spent zero dollars on television and Oz has spent like an entire Vitamin Shoppe’s worth of dollars on television. And but and what he’s able to do though is is drive Federman down to only plus plus three. But so here you have, in terms of likability, enormous high twenties to mid thirties advantages for the democrats.

But in the actual polling, advantages which are only like plus five to plus nine. Sarah, you know a lot about this stuff. Doesn’t likeability normally track a lot closer with with how people wind up voting? Don’t people normally vote for like the person they like? And, like, they then construct all their rationales after the fact.

I mean, I think that we’re gonna feel that way because I mean, I think the answer is sort of yes. And I think both these guys I mean, I I I would say, I think they’re gonna win. I’m I’m I think that the Federman OZ race is gonna be closer than people expect, but I still think Federman’s gonna pull it out, but this is what I mean about people coming home. Like, I think what’s happening with Oz is people don’t like him. And just one other just factor that happened is a bunch of the Republicans ran really sort of devastating primaries against each other.

And so, like, in the Pennsylvania primary. And in the Ohio primary, you had this, right, where they were just destroying each other. They spent millions of dollars of ads driving negatives up on each other and the Republican primaries and the Democrats in these cases, mostly just kinda walk in. You’re

making an argument for Joe Biden to run for reelection by

the way? Not. I’m not.

Not not.

Primaries are not good for the party if you can avoid them. Well,

it depends. It depends on whether you’re trying to sort of like reinvigorate a new generation and have a big conversation. Just think there are times when you have the advantage of incumbency that that can be problematic whether or not that’s true for Joe Biden is a different story. But it it hurt these Republicans. And so that’s part of the reason their favorabilities are so low.

But also, like, people are gonna come home Republicans are gonna like hold their nose and vote for us, a lot of them. And especially even these college educated suburban ones that normally you see as being willing to vote for the democrats against, like, in, like, a Blake Masters case or something. They might vote for us. It’s the, like, white working class truck voters. That actually probably pull Federman over the edge.

You know who’s

one of these voters you’re talking about? JBL seems like I don’t speak for them. I can’t get in that this person’s head per se, but based on an article I read this weekend, tell me. The great Selena z. Oh, the Washington examiner Kitzburg post tribune.

She’s taking a lot of heat for being a very Trump, chunky, maybe not personally, but but her writing was very, you know, sort of, representing the Trump voter was was early on this, kind of seeing that this was happening in the Republican prime Mary from Pennsylvania, seeing the type of voter, they’re, you know, living in her community. And she wrote basically a brutal takedown on mass Riano. How unlikably is That’s because

she doesn’t get any access from him. This is Maybe. No. Not maybe. I definitely don’t know Selena a little bit.

It

isn’t that tell it doesn’t that tell you that doesn’t that tell you something?

It tells me that they think that they all think that he’s gonna lose, and so they think there’s no price crapping on him.

Fair enough. But but me but I guess what I’m saying is if if if she’s running a starter because like Josh Shapiro, actually kind of a likable guy. Cares about Pennsylvania going around and meeting folks. On the other hand, Doug Mastriano, really weird, kind of creepy, doesn’t let any media be around him. Don’t really understand what what is happening there.

Are there not then voters who are who sort of are giving that same impression who who are probably Trump’s supporting voters, some of them might hold their nose and vote from Mastriano anyway, and some of them might just be like, I don’t know, this is just too weird and creepy, and Josh Shapiro seems perfectly fine. Right? And so I think what I’m trying to get at is that that, to some extent, explains that gap to where you have these people that that they might not necessarily like

Mastriano, but, you know, they’re still part some brain worms, partisan pills, and and, like, aren’t it’s not they’re not gonna go vote for Josh Peyro, like, a Jewish

Democrat. How could you? Alright. So let’s move on. There’s two things that our our buddy Sebastian pulled for us, and I found them so hailing, but I wanted us to spend like a minute and a half on each of them.

The first is a clip from which we’re not gonna bother listening to. Of Kirsten Cinema giving a talk at the McConnell Center at the behest of her good friend Mitch McConnell, Who

Did you

know he had a center? I didn’t know he had a center. I

did. I just assumed. Yeah. You know, you spread that much money around your state for that long. Eventually, you had a center.

And and she you know, Mitch McConnell praised her to the moon, and she just loved him right back And I wanna talk to Sarah about this because in theory, this is the kind of thing that you and I both really want. Correct? We will

I also would like to say before you say, correct, I also would like to talk about this because I’m interested and if

she can get inside the mind of a queer, Cool. We find this woman

because I don’t understand what’s happening versus other than swine. So I wanna see Sarah’s opinion full

from a strategic and a psychologic.

I am a sucker for this sort of thing. I love the idea of having our politics back between the forty yard lines where what we’re fighting about our marginal tax rates and pork? And, you know, is there waste and fraud in building this dam project or something that’s what I would like to to spend my time worrying about. I would like to worry about, like, performing higher education or immigration stuff, like that and not worry about, like, democracy protection. And so one of the necessary conditions for that is that we need to get to a point where the people who actually have to do the work of governing, have working relationships with one another.

And Some people see this as the swamp. Some people say, this is this is all just BS kabuki theater. I place value in this and I’d like to see it. On the other hand, McConnell’s introduction of cinema as he was just slathering her up He was talking about how she bravely stood to protect the filibuster. And and and here’s on the count of that.

You said, if you break the institution, here meaning the filibuster, you break the country. Now, again, great deal of wisdom in that. I actually halfway agree with it. Sometimes I I agree more than others. Sometimes I agree less than others.

This is the same guy who broke the supreme court nomination process by refusing to hold a vote on a nominee for a sitting president. And then four years later, pushing for a nominee with no support to to essentially fully rebalance the supreme court. He he broke literally, he broke the country. He did that. Bitch McConnell.

And now he’s praising her for the Sarah, you also like this sort of stuff? Yes? Yes. Am I am I putting why you you like that? A, in this specific thing, you like this sort of thing in general.

Do you like this specific thing with with McConnell and Cinema? B, what is she getting out of any of this? Is she just getting to own the lips? Like, what because I sat there thinking to myself, does she win a single vote in Arizona by hanging out with Mitch McConnell? Because to the best of my knowledge, Nobody in America likes Mitch McConnell.

Mhmm. The maggas hate him, the lids hate him, the other, you know, There are a few people in the federal society who really like Mitch McConnell because he’s gotten to have a bunch of justices seated. Mhmm. But that’s it. Sure.

But

he is an enormously powerful senator. Right? And so let’s just back up for a second and people who maybe listen to this for first time. Don’t know that there’s an ongoing dynamic here in which you guys argued for a long time that nothing could ever get done in the senate you know, everything was gonna be bad. Nobody was gonna cooperate ever.

And I said, that’s not true. I kept saying, I thought that there would be that people would cooperate on that they could find ten Republican votes for. And that has turned out to be true over and over and over again. So when but JBL and I had this argument on the secret pod when she did that appearance with Cornyn. Remember, she appeared with Cornyn to talk about the filibuster, and it was a little bit similar where it felt like she was the one being used as the political prop for the other side.

Right? And yet, I suspect that a lot of the backroom dealing, the, like, shadow Senate or the shadow Congress, involves the fact that mansion and cinema have these good relations ships with Republicans. And I understand that there is a real desire to want to attack them over them, not abolishing the filibuster. I am somebody who You know, I am marginally for the silk filibuster. I’m up for some reforms, but I do not think we should scrap it.

The reason that we have the supreme court that we do now is because we scrap the filibuster for the court appointments, which was that both sides ratcheting up the the scrapping of the filibuster over time so they could blame each other tit for tat. I think that it’s good to have people try to get to ten votes and work together and have there be something remotely bipartisan about it. So what does she get out of it? I suspect she is at the center of a lot of deal brokering in the actual senate, which is good. So

that’s it. She just wants to be in the center of thing. I just can’t I just don’t understand, like, what does she wanna get out of the deals? Like, the whole and she she

The deals.

So, like, deals. So she is she is, like, doing deals. Like that said, she just likes to like, a bad idea. Say the

deals as though there’s I mean, if she sees them as substantively improving people’s lives,

mean,

her thing for the inflation reduction act was like the carried interest tax.

Right. The carried interest. So

I wanted that. Her and, like, eight hedge fund dudes.

Maybe. Like, maybe she just it was a sob to some hedge fund people that she knows. Maybe it was a deal she brokered with the Republicans for their donors. I have no idea why she she did it, but

Four dimensional chess. I

made

a

She made a demand for the Republicans that the Democrats would have to accommodate. I’m

just I’m just not gonna engage in performative cinema bashing just because it’s like —

What — who’s whoever wants to do that?

No. No. No. I’m not saying you I’m not I’m not saying you guys are doing it. I’m saying Twitter doesn’t.

I’m not saying you guys are doing it. I’m saying, like, in the world right now, right, it is like a very popular thing to just like Kristen Cinema is inexplicable and I hate her and she should get primary and like, that that doesn’t

Can

I just offer the try the substantive case for the fact that she’s inexplicable and that she should get primary? She is that she’s inexplicable and she should get primary. What Nobody follows this closer than me. Okay? Nobody spends more time reading Twitter.

I I I listen to lobbyist podcasts. Like, I I I engage into this as closely as anyone. And I have no idea what it is that she wants. I I guess besides like, you’re saying besides to be in the mix, to be the person doing the deals, but, like, John McCain, when he was being Maverick y, had, like, a base of people like me. Moderate, squishy Republicans who, like, also thought the climate change was real and that we should be nicer to immigrants, that we shouldn’t torture people, but that are that are conservative on other issues.

Like, when John McCain was being in Maverick, he that was him. You know, he wasn’t always perfect. Sometimes he was inscrutable. Sometimes he was you know, easily flattish or whatever and would would would do some inside game stuff like he’s perfect. I I don’t know what is Christianson was ideology?

Is she a center left liberal? Is she a far left liberal? Is she a populist liberal? Like, is she a corporate liberal? I guess she’s a corporate liberal now?

She’s like, he just loves, like, big corporations and wants to, like, think that they can do get jobs. Like, does she just like Mitch McConnell say, I I don’t understand. It’s inscrutable Joe Manchin. It it was with her on all this stuff, and it’s very understandable why Joe Manchin is pushing for what he’s doing. He’s pushing for doesn’t want the coal industry in a state to get screwed.

He he he wants to be a little more open to culture the cultural right, the working class, because he lives in fucking West Virginia where the entire state is Mago Republicans. Like, I understand exactly why he’s doing and what he’s doing. I I don’t understand what she’s doing. I should be her base. Right?

I’m a moderate centrist. Like, throw me a thing. Be like, hey, the lips gone overboard on the student loan thing or something. Here are a few substantive things where the left has gone overboard, and I wanna like, that’s not what she’s done. She’s she’s just like being weird.

She

is pretty weird. I mean, here’s the thing. Look, she doesn’t talk to anybody. And so when I say inscrutable, she is genuinely inscrutable. Like, nobody knows.

What it is that she’s doing. But I I think there’s like a charitable case you could make where she’s watching politics break down. She’s watching people hate each other. And she’s decided that one of the things she’s gonna do is lean into demonstrating that you can have these kinds of relationships. And I do think, like, she is still voting for all of Biden stuff.

She is like, she had this one weird thing where she dug in over the carried interest on that on that. And I couldn’t even tell at that point if, like, she just wanted her pound of flesh because she’d done a lot of work. I mean, mansion got a bunch of stuff too. The whole thing got reduced. Like, she votes for all the judges.

Like, she’s doing she votes for most of the Biden, you know, agenda. Maybe she likes being liked by her colleagues. And she she likes She

likes by her Democratic colleagues.

I have no idea.

I don’t get that sense. Maybe I’m wrong. I can be wrong. I don’t know. I mean, I look at this and my I would say for any person who has ever been in the United States Senate, if they’re ever doing something that doesn’t make sense, the outcomes razor explanation is because they want to run for president someday.

And so I just assume that one of the things about cinema is maybe she wants to run for president someday. Maybe that’s not the case. I don’t know. Maybe

I don’t know which which

Akam’s razor isn’t always right. I think one

of the reasons that people find her so perplexing is because she was like a green progressive

member of the crazy party.

And so, like, she’s had a long journey.

I

don’t know. Maybe she got there and said, like, I don’t know. I’ve now I’ve looked around this since what I think it needs more than anything else is like us to have conversations with each other and prove that we can be decent to each other. I

just think it’s a weird place to be in the democrats when you’re getting flanked left by Bill Crystal. You know? It’s like just might be a moment to be like, what’s happening? What’s happening right now? Anyway, okay.

Fair enough. No.

But Tim, do you think you should get rid of the filibuster? Do you think we should get I I don’t JBL, I talked about this today. No.

I I don’t I don’t think that we get rid of the I I think that it’s really stupid that Democrats want to get rid of the filibuster, actually.

That’s the thing.

That’s the

main thing. That’s the main thing she stood up

on. Yeah. Okay. So I guess we agree on that, but it’s sort of like the the the way the manner in which she makes that argument is very is very odd. I think.

And again, to JBL’s point, it’s like, oh, I need to respect the institution. And and so now I’m here with Mitch McConnell.

The great people that are friends of capital.

And, like, all of my criticism is about the left. You know what I I it’s okay. It’s just, like, why is all every time I see you’re talking, you criticizing the left only, like, after we’ve had a a a storming of the capital. I I I I find that to be strange. I I grew there on the full list of the what I if I was her, And I was a a liberal, which actually may not be anymore.

I don’t know, who wanted to protect the filibuster. The argument that I would be making is I’m deeply scared that president Ron DeSantis in twenty twenty four is gonna ban abortion at one week. Federally, And and I she has said that. That has been one of her points, but it doesn’t seem like her main point. Right?

And and so, like, that is what I I I think the left could really use somebody out there making that argument. Which is aren’t you guys concerned about this? Aren’t you guys, like, worried that getting rid of the filibuster could have some very extreme consequences. Like, look at the laws that are being passed in some of these red states around trans issues, around, you know, all these other social issues. I doesn’t that worry you?

Maybe we should have a check on this? I I I think that’s a compelling argument.

Yeah. And again, I just I have no idea what goes on and Christy’s sitting in my head. And the fact that she’s although did you see, I guess, she used to date Keith Overman. He’d throw that on Twitter. Very It’s also weird.

A weird little thing to find out. So, like, I mean, who dates I mean,

like, thirty years older than she. Yeah. So,

like, who dates Keith Oberman and is a green, clear, like, communist type in two twos, and then he can’t make it down all. Like, I don’t know. I don’t

yeah. My sexuals. I just can’t make us their mom. There

that’s great. Here we go. But so, like, I have no idea why she is the way she’s I just all I know is that there’s there are fifty ish other senators that I’d I’d I’d more than that because I would put some of, like, the Mayzie Geronos, like, the really like, way before her. Like, I just sometimes I find the obsession with cinema and even the hatred for, like, a Susan cock, like, I agree obviously, with what you said that, like, basically, I think everybody should focus on the people who did the coup, that that’s really important. That being said, I am sympathetic to being a legislator in a swing state who is looking around saying, like, boy and politics is really toxic.

Like, And and who decides, like, maybe it wouldn’t be our decision, but who decides that the best thing she can do in her role, maybe because she’s a people person, or she’s an institutional, so I don’t know, She’s like, I can be friends with these guys and I can try to try to bring the temperature down. Nobody likes it. I’ll stipulate that. Nobody is a fan of this. Thing.

I just that’s my that’s my charitable case — Mhmm. — for Kirsten Cinema.

Someone

had to make it.

Someone had to make it.

Alright. Well, I mean, look, Joe Biden’s been bringing the temperature down. God love him. Nobody gives him credit for that either. Alright.

Sorry. I just stand for Biden here. Lacey, we had a bunch of other stuff we were gonna talk about, but the show was already running long. Is it? It’s

always running long. Don’t

want to cheat I’m well, we’re not there yet, but we’re gonna be long if I and I will have to cheat people out of furry talk. And so I’m gonna fast forward his right to that. Sarah, you just did a focus group about furries. I’m Ron Burgundy. Okay.

No. Save you all. Of

course,

that’s not what happened. Yeah. So but this this was funny, although Twitter is making me so mad because nobody nothing’s funny anymore. This is what I mean. Maybe Kirsten Cinema just got, like, so fed up with everybody and it’s just, like, decided to just one epic troll after another.

Cancel

culture, Run amok.

Run amok. So I’m doing this focus group with Wisconsin swing voters. And they’re it’s a terrific group. They are thoughtful. They voted for Trump in sixteen, all the reasons I always say, hated Hillary Clinton.

He was a businessman, maybe do something different. Saw him over the four years and were, like, absolutely not again in twenty twenty. And we’re very much sticking with it, but they all voted in the Republican primary, which was pretty interesting. And they’d most of them voted for governor for clean fish, who was the slightly more establishment. Type over this guy For a prime

sorry. Just just for clarity, the Republican primary in twenty twenty two. In

twenty twenty two? Like, just in this last round. They voted in the Republican primary. And so that’s how they’re thinking about themselves. Right?

Like, they were Republicans, they voted for Trump, then they voted for Biden, but they’re still voting in Republican primaries, and they all tried to basically vote for, like, the most the more normal of the two Republicans. They hate Ron Johnson. But just out of nowhere, something, you know, they’re just talking and I’m just listening. It actually was done the other night and I was catching up. I I couldn’t watch it live.

And so I was I was watching the recording and I was listening. And all of a sudden, this woman, she’s like, you know, she’s talking about just how the country is falling apart. Mhmm. And and it’s just as you know, and I I am a teacher, and I was school the other day for this event, and there were like twelve or fifteen

kids who were dressed as furies. And, like, there’s sort of this, like, record scratch in the group. And, like, some people are, like, what do you mean furries?

Like,

And

this group is just, like, all, like, middle aged people. And so

Ruthren, with Thomas and I, mild manards, No. Not a lot of cursing. Jag, ma’am. Hera,

I’m sorry. I’m gonna I’m gonna require you to do the entire rest of the story in the Wisconsin sense and accent.

I can’t do it. I can’t do it. And she’s and she’s, like, she’s, like, a bit her point. Her point was, like, this is the problem with Trump is that once you just, like, Anybody can say whatever they want. Anybody can do whatever they want.

Bing, bang, boom. You got kids acting like furries. But so then, some of the kids some of the people in the group are like, what’s a furry and a moderator too? It’s like, is that when you dress up as a stuffed animal? Which I thought was like first so first of all, also, I my understanding of furry is pretty limited.

I just think it’s always been like a funny thing. Something people say about Beto, like, Beto’s furry. I don’t I don’t know. I am so But so this woman says, like, yes, I had to explain this to my, like, you know, ninety year old mother recently. She’s, like, I told her that this monkeypox thing is real, and I told her that fur about furries.

And and so and then she so she defines it for the

future. To kill her ninety year old mother.

Yeah. She said her mother had a tough time, you know, getting coming in regards to this. But she she said that that furries is when you identify as like a dog or a cat. That’s

not correct. Which

I was pretty sure wasn’t right. That’s not it. Incorrect. And and so people and people so this but the group is really funny because the group is reacting two ways. There are, like, old man being like, they identify as cats and dogs.

Like like one old guy is saying that. Very nice guy. He needs just and they’re just shaking their heads like, this is the world has gone crazy. And then

there’s other people that are sort of like so there’s like the people that are like disbelief, but like, whatever. And then there’s the other part of the group that’s like, yeah, this is a real thing. I know about this. I’ve heard about this.

And it’s so it’s just I I I was laughing. I was crying with laughter, but then I tweeted about it. We

just but now before we get to the Twitter drama — Yeah. — no one there was not a single member including the moderator. The moderator just not wanna be Candy Crowley. There was not single member of the of the group who who correctly defined the first.

I I don’t think so. I don’t think I don’t think anybody had, like, a quite a the dead there was, like because

it’s a it’s a sexual thing. It’s not a gender identity thing.

That’s right. It’s a yeah.

It’s like you get off on fucking mascots. Yeah.

Right.

Right. Like, that’s j b l. Yeah. Those are the the so I think

I’m sorry. Right. Is that wrong? No. Thank you

for summing it up. I was gonna give a much more deliberative explanation than that, you know, for some of our listeners. To work them in. But, no, you get off on fucking mask off. Oh,

it’s Sebastian put it in the comments. An enthusiastic Yeah.

His his definition is also a little softer. JBL. JBL really got it.

For animal characters, it’s human characteristics. In particular, Britney dresses up in a costume as such a character and uses one is an avatar. I’m like, oh, that is also softer because on my understanding When

they meet in public, their meetings, their furry meetups, and you know, you’ll have like a care bear and, you know, whatever, woody, the woodpecker and they’ll get together and know, they And the Philly fanatics. Yeah. There’s that chunk of this. Learning happening and and I and I I’ve never really quite

understood. Nothing for the Philly fanatics.

I was I was letting it go. I’ve never really quite understood, like, the particulars of the orgasm. And how that goes down because I think there’s some challenges for the males in particular. And there’s some challenges there that I never really understood. But But besides that, I’m pretty well versed.

I just I just the endgame, I don’t I don’t know the details on Sebastian does, but he he said he was gonna share it offline. So

Okay. So but so I I just because I think I saw a documentary or something like on MTV when we were, like, all in our early twenties or something. This was the thing. And that’s, like, the last time I ever, like, clocked this phenomenon. And of course, at the time, it was just like, alright.

Like, this is goofy, but whatever. This isn’t like a real thing. Like, it’s not like a lot people do this. And if they do and people wanna get dressed up as animals and, like, I don’t know — God bless them. — hang out.

Like, whatever. It just, like, seems like relatively armless compared to many other things one could be doing. You know, why

don’t they dress up as as Confederate soldiers and go out and do militia work? That would be awesome. It’s terrible that they’re dressing up as an elmo to to bang it out there. They should be out marching with arm bands and AKs.

Drive two hundred and half. AR fifteen. Plus kits. That’s but that’s that’s That’s

not

why this is funny. But that’s not why this is funny, because while they’re having furry panic on this thing. Right? And she’s explaining it. Like, she’s explaining it wrong.

And so, like, the people in the group so it’s, like, It’s about identifying as cats and dogs, which is a nut, which I think is a newer phenomenon that as Tim points out, is related to what is sort of the panic over the current gender identity. Correct. That’s going on. Right? It’s a sort of like queer

It’s not a new phenomenon. It’s like a series of Facebook memes that old people are reading and thinking are true.

Cool.

So I mean, I’m sure that there were, like, kids at this school who, like, had I don’t know, like, cats ears on or, like,

That’s a thing they make for girls now. They have headbands with little cats ears on it. It doesn’t mean that these kids are are walk around saying, I demand that you address me as as, you know, missed tables or something. Yeah.

Or they were in, like, footy pajamas being, like, teenagers. Like, this is the thing. This is where moral panic meets like, kids Global old people. Well, like, kids being weirdos just to do it because, you know, they’re teenagers. Like, They put on trench coats.

They were goths. They were whatever, ever drinks.

We get this woman on. No. Like, I have some follow-up questions. Like, what did what are the pronouns for the cat? Kids.

Like, were they demanding to be called, like, you know, kitty

kids? He clearly just like seen it.

Like, this

is her. But

then somebody else did chime in with this other

I don’t think she did. I bet you anything She she said I bet you

she read something. No. No. No. This was she had a very clear story.

I’m not gonna because I don’t wanna I don’t wanna, like, put a place around it. Right? But she had a very clear story about a place she was and a thing that she witnessed. So I’m not in

crucial Waukesha County answers.

This is this is per this person This person is totally normal. She is not. You do not need to disparage her. She’s telling you a thing that she saw. She’s just somebody who gets caught up.

Right? In this Like, because there is this sort of panic about gender identity right now, and there’s all these things in, like, kids are identifying as strawberries and, like, everything. You know, because, like, kids are just being weird. People use that as a way to be, like, boy. Whole country has fallen apart.

Now I’m like, guys, teenagers have always been weird and, like, older people have always been mystified by young Like, that’s all that’s happening here.

Literally, the Satan is

official. Not the end of society. But I thought it was just funny. Like, I just thought it was, like, pure joy funny. And the people on Twitter shared in your mind.

Oh,

everybody,

like, immediately decamped. It’s like, oh, and that’s Biden’s fault. That was like, No. Like, actually she was blaming Trump, but, like, it’s neither of their faults that, like, for generations, kids have been weird and adults have been mystified by their, like, practices. That’s just this is just funny.

Like, why

do you need to The other category

of

of Twitter compliance? No. And

then yeah. But then there’s the other category who’s, like, See, this is how, like, genderqueer theory is destroying America. I’m, like, guys, none of this is is everybody settled down. Did

you have anybody from the left, chastising you for taking the furries concern seriously.

Why did there were people in there? They’re being, like, I’ve met I’ve met first and they’re very nice people. And I’m, like, okay. Well, this isn’t I’m not I’m not disparaging furries. I’m not disparaging.

But I this is just this is just funny, guys. And why can’t this was it was meant to be a timeline cleanser. And instead, everybody takes everything so seriously and everyone

should stop it.

You can’t have timeline cleansers these days. Sarah, okay, I just please just focus on the enemy. Alright?

Tweeting back the enemy

and why why they are always

bad. That’s the only thing that is that’s the only thing that is acceptable. Good show. Long show. Very long show.

First show out from behind the paywall

was something else.

Think we should have no longer. I had a lot of good material. I have good material about Glen Youngkin and the student walkout. I have good material on Gavin Newsom and how creepy he was. Do

we cut the January sixth thing and talk about Gavin Newsom? Because

we’re not gonna do that, Sarah. We’ll do Gavin Newsom next week. Gavin Newsom isn’t going away. He’s so thirsty he’s gonna be there being thirsty in our faces for until Joe Biden, like, you know, actually declares that he’s rerunning for reelection.

And even after.

Yeah. So alright. Everybody’s just joining us for the first time. Thanks so much. Go ahead and subscribe.

Mash that subscribe button. Tell your pals. Tell your pals, go to the bulwark dot com, follow Tim on Twitter, follow Sarah on Twitter, sign up for Charlie’s newsletters at the bulwark dot com, read all of our great stuff. We’ll see podcasts, follow the videos. We’ll see you next week.

Alright. Peace.