The Best Stunts of 2022, Rewarded

Welcome back to the Bulwark Coast Wood. My name is Sunny Vonage from Culture Editor at The Bulwark, and I’m very pleased to be joined today by Bill Gates Abury and Brandon Streisnig. Now Bill Gates is a film critic at New York magazine. He’s a longtime writer village voice before that has written for the criterion collection. Brandon freelance writer, and they have they have combined for a fantastic project that I think is going to reshape the awards world.

It’s gonna we’re gonna we’re gonna change things here. It’s gonna be wonderful. They put together a big stunt awards package for New York Magazine. And this is important because as as, you know, people who watch the Oscars know, Stumped, stuntman, stunt coordinators, they don’t get any love. They don’t get any love, and that’s wrong.

And and Brandon, and Bill get have combined forces to to try and change that. Thanks for being on the show today. Can I get you guys to introduce yourself one at a time just so we so folks can know who’s talking, Bill Ge? You go

first. Hello. My name is Bill Geberie, and I am a film critic for New York Magazine and Vulture. Brandon. And I’m Brandon Streisthening, and I’m a freelance critic most

recently with Vulture, but have also written for Fangora, a few other places too. Thanks again for being on the show. Alright. So let’s talk let’s talk about how this came about. Though, I remember a a couple years back, you wrote a piece for Vulture, basically saying, like, there is no stunt category in the Oscars.

Why don’t we have that? What was the was this kind of was that kind of the impetus of this whole thing? Was that the starting point?

I think it’s fair to say that that was the starting point. You know, it’s stunt awards, I will say, they were not my idea. You would think that they were because I’ve been kind of beating that drum, but it was my editors came to me and said, hey, you know, we’d like to do something like this. What do you think? And, you know, it was obviously very much for it.

That original piece, which at this point, I think, was was twenty nineteen, twenty I think it was twenty twenty or something that. You know, that was inspired by well, both the fact that you know, stunt people had been campaigning for an Oscars category, but also just from over the years, having talked to stunt people for interviews and things like that, just slowly realizing just how much incredible work goes in to what they do. How entertaining they are. They are among sort of film people, they are probably my favorite people to talk to in part because they have no filters and also they’re not, you know, they’re not media trained in that in that way that, you know, actors and directors and the people who do sort of the press circus every time a movie comes out are. So so I’ve always enjoyed talking to them.

I’ve always enjoyed learning more about what they do, how they do it. And it’s slowly donged on me that it was absurd that there wasn’t an Oscar for it, and then I learn more about, you know, their attempts. I mean, they’ve been trying for decades to get an Oscar category for stunts. Despite the fact that occasionally special awards are given out to some people and have been for years. So so, yeah, I came out of that Ron DeSantis then we’ve been kind of beating this drum

repeatedly.

And it made sense to just sort of take the next step and just, you know, give out our own awards. And just as, you know, one as a way of celebrating this stuff, two, because it’s fun to do it. And three, because it would, you know, kind of remind people that there isn’t an Oscar category for it, which is why we ran it. Like, the week before the Oscars.

And it I mean, it really is kind of surprising when especially when you think about how, you know, FX and action driven so much of the film industry is at this point that there isn’t a more formalized way of rewarding stuntmen and and the work that they do. Brandon, you know, but part of the issue here, I think, is just looking I mean, just looking at the categories that you guys put together. Mean, there there are so many different ways to categorize stunts and to reward the different sorts of things that you see on screen that it’s almost kind of daunting to figure out how to collapse that down into, you know, one or two categories for the Oscars. Right?

Yeah. I think so. And that was something that we did kind of get I wouldn’t say struggle with, but it was something that we talked about a lot because it was hard to you know, narrow down who did what? And who like, does this go to, like, the stunt coordinator or cinematographer or even the director in some cases. So that was kinda hard to narrow it down.

But, like, the one thing that I felt like, was very strange that I had never considered until doing this, was we got a few responses, like, when we when when we first were going out to people and, you know, trying to get we we wanted to get people within the industry to create nominations for our voting body. And we were just going out to anyone who, you know, we could think of, you know, stunt people, directors, things like that. And there were a few people who pushed back and said that they weren’t interested because they felt like creating a stunt awards was would be creating an arms race for people to get hurt. And that was something I had never considered before. And frankly, I think that’s very stupid.

I think it’s kind of patronizing and But I wonder now if that’s one of the reasons the Oscars push back on it because the more people I’ve spoken to within the industry the more that they’ve told me that that’s a big reason that they’ve heard. That it’s not so much about who who gets rewarded, but it’s they’re afraid that I I guess they they’re afraid that people are gonna try to warm up each other every single year to get, you know, a a potential Oscar. And I just think that that’s very silly to to think because it’s, you know, these people are trained in what they do. And I think it’s not giving them enough credit and but it’s I don’t know. It it was a very kind of it was almost a shocking thing to hear, especially, like, not Ron DeSantis, but enough to where it was like, oh, wow.

That I can’t believe people actually think like that.

Well, I mean, that that could be just as applicable to the world of filmmaking itself. I mean, you know, every every year we’re we’re talking about, you know, the new Tom Cruise stunt in the next mission impossible movie. Right? I mean, it’s like, the idea that there’s going to not be one upmanship, you know, in this in this world is kinda silly to begin with.

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that I’ve heard that I’ve heard that counterargument as well. You know, that was actually something that, you know, Jack Gill, the veteran stuntman who Ron DeSantis coordinator who has been, for many years, spearheading this attempt to get an Oscar’s category for stunts. You know, he’s a member of the academy, has been a member for for years. And in fact, in my in my piece, you know, I talk about how it was Sydney Lou Metz idea initially to get him into the academy so that they could sort of start this ball rolling.

But he said that he had heard that argument. There there have been a there have been a couple of arguments about why there shouldn’t be a stunt. Oscar. The the thing about that argument for me is there are already awards for stunts. Right?

I mean, SAG has a stunt ensemble award that it’s given out for years. The Canadian Academy just a couple of years ago introduced a stunt award there are, I mean, quite aside from the vulture stunt awards, there is actually, you know, a a a a stunt Academy, and they give out their awards every year I think it’s in September. And, you know, so far, there hasn’t been some kind of dangerous one upmanship But really, the most important thing about it is a stunt coordinator’s very first, you know, the most important part of their job is safety. Right? I mean, that’s that’s the job.

I mean, that’s why stunt people do these things so that, you know, so that they they can be done safely by professionals. So you’d kinda not be doing your job if you’re putting people in in constant danger trying to get an award. But, you know, as as Brandon says, it’s also it’s it’s condescending. I mean, it suggests that, you know, suddenly like these people are gonna see Oscar and just like, you know, they’re it’s gonna be like a cartoon where their eyes light up with, like, little gold statues and they’re just gonna go around killing people. I will say this however.

There is you know, you can say that that’s not a valid argument, and I would say it’s not a valid argument. But you can also say that that is something that people are worried about perception wise so that, for example, let’s say there isn’t an arm. Rates, but they do introduce this award. The minute somebody is injured on a stunt in a in a big back movie or whatever, God forbid, killed, you just know there will be a million bozos on Twitter talking about how this caused that and, you know, now they’re all waiting for us. You know, I can sort of envision maybe because of the way I tend to catastrophize, how you know, any news item will play out in social media now because my brain has just rotted away to that point.

But, like, that sort of I can already see how the discourse will take shape if that ever happens. God forbid, you know, hope hopefully, it doesn’t happen. But people do get injured. People get injured. I mean, not doing stunts too.

But, you know, this would provide that context. So it might not be so much that people are worried that stunt people will do this and and create, you know, create an arms race quote unquote. But but it’s might also be that they’re worried that this is how it will be perceived. At the same time. I mean, that’s a good reason for not doing it.

Anything about anything. You know, what the dumbest people on social media or or out there in the world might think about

it? Yeah. I mean, that is a the the stupidity of Twitter is never a good reason not to something. I mean, there are there are other good reasons not to do things, but that that’s Let’s let’s talk about the awards themselves because I I I I want people to get a sense of the first off, I want people to go just read this package that you guys put together. I mean, it is a it is a you’ve you’ve got a full day’s worth of reading ahead of you.

There’s all sorts of stuff to check out interviews with directors, interviews with with stuntman, you know, lists of great stuntman turn directors. I mean, it’s it’s a fantastic package. But let’s let’s talk about the actual awards. Could you could you just run us through the list real quick to to give people a sense of what we what what what what to expect when they go there?

Yeah. I’m just gonna I’m gonna pull them up just to make sure I don’t forget anything

you Just read a list. That’s fine. That’s perfect.

Could feel bad because it it’s been six months of my life, and you would think I’d have them off the back of my hand, but But yeah. So the the the first one was it was best stunt in an action film that one kind of speaks for itself, and then there was best in a non action film, which was kinda, like, to me, the most fun category, even though action’s, like, probably my favorite genre, it was why Bilga approached me to to take to help, you know, spearhead this and everything. But the best stunt in a non action film was a lot of fun because you had everything from, like, deep water to triangle of sadness to I guess, all nominated in that in Nope, which was the eventual winner. And then there was stuff like best fight, best shoot out, best vehicular stunt, best practical explosion, and then best overall action film, which is essentially our best picture. And then best achievement in stunts overall, which was given to just some you had someone one stunt professional who had, you know, exhibited the best achievement Ron DeSantis for the year.

And then we also had a lifetime achievement award, which one to Albert Peon, who passed away last

year. You mentioned and this is something that you you’re discussing the piece. Coming up with the categories, creating you had a you had a kind of an advisory committee that that helped you come up with the categories. What were some of the surprises there, Brandon? I mean, because it like, it it feels like the sort of thing where you you envision in your head, like, alright, these are the categories that we should award.

And then you start talking to the experts and they’re like, well, what about what about this? What about what about this? How did that list change and evolve as you guys were working on it?

Well, one of the one of the biggest things was we had a a stuntwoman Angelica Liscon. She was one of the people who I was emailing with back and forth just for suggestions. And one of the biggest things that I had never heard until speaking with her is that Apparently, the correct term is just stunt professional. It’s not stunt people or or things like that. So that was something that I had hadn’t heard before.

Not too many surprises of within the category, but just talking to the advisory board, we had a a VFX artist help us out a little bit. Just hearing how much was actually practical because there were some things where we were unsure how much of something was CGI, how much of something was practical. And to find out how much, you know, actual practical explosion wanted to something like the Batman after the chase scene. I I was surprised by that because I thought a lot of that movie was done on sound stages and things like that with, you know, the LED backgrounds and everything. So it it wasn’t so much shaping the categories that surprised me because they were kind of when when this was brought to me, it was the categories kind of have always stayed the same from when they were first pitched till now, but just like the little intricacies of it were a little surprising.

Yeah. And in in talking to these folks, you really get a sense of just how collaborative the whole thing is. You know, when when you talk to someone like Todd Vaziri, VFX artist who was part of our our little advisory board. You know, we talk about we we talk about movies. We’re like, oh, is it too much CGI?

It’s all, you know, it’s all VFX. It’s all, you know, it’s all done in computers and stuff like that. That’s just not true. You know, there’s so much practical work goes into this stuff before it becomes, you know, before it goes into the world of VFX and CGI and things like that. I

mean,

you know, when you look I I mean, if you look at kind of the behind the scenes footage from the making of the Avatar, you know, yes, it’s a it’s these digital environments and the characters are, you know, digitally rendered and and all that stuff. But like, they’re really fighting. Like, they’re like, it’s a it’s an actual fight that they shoot. And, you know, there’s a lot of stunt work involved. There are actual vehicles they’re riding that are then turned into, you know, whatever magic Pandora creature they’re they’re gonna be riding in the actual movie.

There’s so much work that goes into this. I mean, this was I can’t remember if it was Todd that said this or someone else, but, you know, they made the point because the one of one of our nominees were justified. And it didn’t win, but, you know, had a strong showing. Let’s just say, was the the the the big the big melee at the opening of a r r r, which is kind of Ram’s introduction at the police station with, like, you know, a crowd of thousands or whatever. And, you know, a lot of people have looked at that and said, oh, this this looks like CGI.

You know, this person made the point. It took them thirty five days to shoot that scene. And when you look at the footage of them shooting it, no, no, there’s a lot of of stunt work being done there. I mean, it’s an incredibly complicated sequence they’re shooting. So all these little things.

I mean, they’re not little things. They’re big things. But, you know, you really gain a newfound appreciation for just for just how collaborative all this work is. Which is also another reason why, you know, a stunt award seems a stunt Oscar seems like such a no brainer to me. Like, it’s the right thing to do.

Right? You you give awards to the VFX artists. Right? You give a you get you have a special effects award. It’s it’s like it’s that it’s the other side of that coin.

And and it’s just actually when I did my original, there should be a a stunt Oscar piece, one of the one of the one of the stunt professionals I talked to, said, it is a little weird where we, like, go on set and, like, everybody has kind of, like, their own category. And you know, could win an Oscar for their category, but were the people who were doing all this stuff and and, like, we’re somehow excluded. You know, in the way that we talk about this stuff sometimes in reviews and things like that, we sort of put these things in opposition to one another practical stunt versus, you know, CGI, but it’s really not that way at all. I mean, they’re always they’re always working together. One side might lean more and one side might be more dominant than the other for certain movies, but but it is really you know, you kinda have to take a holistic view of the whole thing.

Yeah. I mean, one one thing that was you mentioned Avatar. One thing that was interesting in one of the one of the sidebars there was, like, a extended response from somebody who’s, like, I can’t believe Avatar is not getting more love because, you know, they like, I guess, everybody’s just kind of blinded by the you know, the the CGI of it all that it’s, you know, it it it all seems to be FX. But I I like, I’ve watched the making of videos from Avatar. That stuff is I insane.

It’s it’s on both ends, I mean, granted there is a lot of FX work. I don’t think anyone would would deny that, but it is a it’s a it’s It’s interesting to to watch them actually perform it live.

Yeah. I was I was kind of surprised by the lack of Avatar love too, and I do think that that was the biggest thing is that the nominating body simply might not have been aware of how much stunt work went into that. And then that gets into the to me, that gets into, like, the deeper intricacies of it because to to be honest, I think, you know, you hear the stories about how long people had to hold their breath. Is that a stunt? Like, because that’s because that’s, like, that’s a feat of, like or that’s, like, a pretty incredible feat to me.

But, yeah, Bill got brought up our our our that was another one that I think people because we’ve gotten we’ve gotten really great responses to this, but there have been one or two people who have asked, you know, like, what happened with r r r because it didn’t win anything. And and that was, you know, one of the more popular action movies of the year. And I think it might simply just come down to a lot of people thought that movie was all CGI, and it’s and it’s not. I mean, they shot for three hundred days. I mean, you’re not shooting for three hundred days in, you know, doing it all in post.

So, I mean, I don’t know. It it it is an interesting thing. And and I like what you said, Dolga, about how I think we should stop looking at these things in opposition to one another, you know, of CGI versus practical stunts and everything because they are just kind of working and tandem together. And it is weird that, you know, if you’re gonna reward one, why aren’t you rewarding the other? And yeah.

I mean, it I I definitely agree with that.

One of the movies that was was single out I I I don’t think it I I can’t remember. I don’t think it won anything, but is is I know one of Bill Gates favorite movies of the year, Athena. I mean, that that opening ten or eleven minute chase sequence out of the into and then out of the police station is just one of the the most fantastic things I’ve seen on screen all year, and it really kind of highlights the breadth of this category. I mean, you can have you have everything from Avatar two, which cost, you know, God only knows how many GDPs of how many small countries. And then you’ve got Aphana, and then you’ve got, you know, ambulance which is kind of, like, closer to the the Aphana range ironically.

I mean, I I, like, I am when when you guys were were watching the results come in, what were you excited to see get more love than you thought maybe was going to?

I Will Saletan the the love for Athena warmed my heart. Oddly enough, I despite despite getting an invite to vote both for the nominations and for the winners. In both cases, I I did not get my pellet in on time. So none of those things that people said about Athena were me. Let me just say.

And I don’t think there was any category where something one by one vote, so I don’t think my my balance would have ultimately made that big a difference. But but I was very happy to see other people standing for that film for once.

But

But, yeah, I mean, in in that film, though, you know, I mean, one, not a lot of people saw it because, you know, it was not marketed well. So on Netflix, but it was, you know, when you do see it, even if you don’t love the movie and, you know, it’s it it can be controversial. The film,

you

know, the amount of work that they they clearly did the the real life stunt work that they’re doing in that movie is staggering. And if there there’s also, you know, on Netflix, there’s actually a making of, like, a thirty, thirty five minute making of that you can watch where you see them doing some of this stuff and it’s it’s it’s I I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it. I mean, there’s, you know, you Sonny, you mentioned the opening sequence. You know, the opening sequence is like an unbroken eleven minute long take. Now there is some digital stitching happening between certain sections of it.

But the stunts you’re seeing are are are being done. And there’s a scene where there, you know, these kids who’ve just, like, raided a police station are they’ve they’ve commandeered a van and they’re and they’re riding in the van and there’s a camera. The camera goes into the van, goes out of the van, circles the van, goes back into the van, and then circles back out, I believe. On actually that then stays inside, but it goes in and out twice. And that was not done digitally.

What you see in the making of, that was a cameraman strapped to a motorcycle driving alongside the van, handing this enormous digital IMAX camera to another cameraman who was inside the van, who who then shoots them and then hands it back, and then they circle I mean, it’s just insane. You see it being done and you still can’t quite, you know, accept it. So it’s stuff like that. I mean, you know, a film like that. I always felt if enough people saw that movie, that would that would have an impact in, you know, in a stunt awards race such as this because it is so impressive what they’re doing.

But yeah, I mean, it is, you know, like like you said, it it does sort of show the the breadth of work being done. I mean, you you have a top gun, Maverick, you have an Avatar, which are two very different types of movies, obviously, both very expensive blockbusters. But then you have an ambulance. You have an Athena. You have something like The Woman King, you know.

I I mean, these are all films that are their their sensibilities are different, but also the type of stunt work going into them is different. I mean, it it gives you a sense of how diverse this world is.

What was exciting for me was seeing the love for Scott Adkins. You know, his movie winning best fight, and then he won some professional of the year. He’s someone who I’ve really followed for years and who I’ve been, like, kind of championing for years, you know, wondering why it hasn’t this guy gotten a bigger break. You know, he’s when he shows up in Hollywood movies, he’s, like, good number two. But then in his in, like, these DTV movies that you find at Walmart, he’s the star and they’re, like, secretly incredible movies.

And so to see to see him finally get some love and and actually when it was was pretty incredible to me. It was kinda it kinda made like, this project on its on its own was very fulfilling, but that made it all worth it for me to see just him get some love after all these years.

I let’s let’s hit on this for a second because I do think I I you I I saw you on Twitter, and you can tell that this was the thing that you were most excited about probably from this from this oh, awards cycle is is Scott Adkins wedding. Now, like, I I I I’m guessing most people who listen to this don’t have any idea who Scott Adkins is. And this is a this is your your missing out, folks. You’re missing out. But why don’t you why don’t you run us through his filmography?

Brandon. Get people what’s what’s something what is, like, if you had two movies that people should check out from Scott Atkins to to get them on the the Atkins diet. What what are we what are we looking for? I would probably say, that’s so tough because there’s so many, but definitely Universal

Soldier Day of Rack is probably like the one that I think anyone should see whether you’re an action fan or not because it’s it’s just so ambitious. So unlike anything I’ve ever seen, and then you think, like, this is, like, the fourth universal soldier movie. How good can it be? And it’s, like, way better than you ever think it would be. And then I would probably say the other one would be probably undisputed three, which, again, you would have to see undisputed two for it to make sense.

Maybe undisputed one, but not really. But undisputed three kind of shows just exactly what he can do as a martial artist. I you know, he’s been referred to by a lot of different people as, like, a human special effect because he kinda, like, breaks your brain and seeing what he can do. And it because he’s, like, when you when you think of martial artists, you think of, like, really agile, like, smaller guys for the most part, and he is very agile, but he’s also, like, just huge. Like, he’s just like a a giant guy, and he’s like flying through the air doing these insane kicks that a guy like his his side shouldn’t be doing.

So I don’t know. I think undisputed three probably shows that off the best, but universal soldier a day of reckoning is probably his best film. So I’d I’d go with those too.

I I will say my favorite Scott Atkins moment from recent years is in the movie day shift Yes. I don’t know if you guys saw that, but there’s so day shift is is is fine. It’s like kinda it’s kinda I I I didn’t love it. It’s a little mediocre. But there’s this moment about midway through where Scott Atkins shows up with another guy, and they’re like Hungarian or something Hungarian vampire killers.

And the action sequence they put together is like, oh, this is this is what the whole movie should have been. The the whole movie should have been this sequence here. And that’s how I feel basically anytime he shows up in any Hollywood thing. But as you mentioned, I mean, there’s a whole DTV universe. Of of his stuff that that people should check out.

I don’t know. I think audio I I I guess mainstream audiences are probably gonna get a lot of a lot of him in John Wick four. Right? He’s he’s one of the the main villains in that. If I haven’t seen it yet, I don’t know.

Yeah. I think he’s in John Liquor. I haven’t seen it either, but, you know, he’s also he’s also one of the bad guys in the expendables. It was a first expend I can’t remember. But, like, one of the expendables movies.

And, you know, I mean, universal soldier day of reckoning was the movie. Where I became aware of who he was even though I had seen him in other films. But yeah, there’s something I think

I

don’t know if ironic is the word. I’m probably using the word ironic wrong here, but the fact that he is kind of the king of, like, the DTV streaming action movie, you know, when I when I finally watched accident man hit man’s holiday, which is the film that that, you know, that that one of the films that he did in twenty twenty two that also won our best fight sequence award. The thing I was struck by was, oh my god, this would kill in a movie theater. You know, like, the irony of it is that, you know, we’re sorta stuck watching these things at home. I’m sitting here in my basement watching it, you know, nice TV and everything.

But as I was watching it, oh my god, if if I could transport myself back in time to a hypothetical packed audience watching this movie. I would so love to do that because Yeah. Just your lizard brain just completely takes over watching one of these films because the the things they’re doing are so nuts and the stunts they’re performing are so incredible, not just, you know, not just Scott Adkins, but, you know, Andy Long and all the other people involved in this film. You know, it’s it’s it’s there to be appreciated by a group of people just sort of roaring in orgasmic rage and delight a movie like that. You know, you don’t really have much of a chance to see in theaters because that kind of actually where it really belongs.

Like, it’s a spectacle. It’s like, you know, it’s like wrestling. It’s like watching wrestling. You know? Like, who wants to watch wrestling by themselves at home?

I mean,

I’m sure a lot of us do. That just seems sad. Don’t you? Do you guys think that the the John Wick phenomenon has kind of changed that at all? Or is it still I I feel like these things are starting to break through to the mainstream a little more the whole Gun Fu, you know, kind of over the top stylized action that you see in things like Bulwark Train, or, you know, kind of on a more subdued, more realistic level with atomic blonde.

I feel like that that sort of thing is kind of hitting the mainstream a little more frequently now. I I think so for sure. And and that was something a a big reason why

I’m constantly on Twitter going on and on about action, particularly, DTV, is that for years until probably John Wick and then the mission of possible movies, the the later ones, For years, it felt like the only action we were getting was in, like, Marvel movies, and it was, like, pretty poor action at that. It and I was getting frustrated because I was like, you guys, like, the best action is not happening in theaters and you guys are missing it. And I think with John Wick, it’s coming from two guys who kinda came up in the stunt world and, like, Stelski started in DTV. He was working on a whole bunch of Alberpune movies when he got his start. And I think he’s someone that’s been able to take, like, that kind of, like, the action that I had been seeing for years in DTV movies bringing it to a theatrical setting.

And so much so that as the John Wick movies have gone along, he’s starting to include a lot of these guys who have, you know, cut their teeth in movies no one seeing for years, you know, like this latest one does have Scott Atkins. He’s actually in a fat suit in this movie. So, you know, you talk about Twitter discourse. That’s that’s gonna be a lot of fun when the movie actually comes out. But and then another big part of the newest John Wick.

I haven’t seen it either, but is Marco Zarora who he’s the villain in undisputed three. And he’s a guy that has been killing it in DTV just not seen by a wider audiences. So I do think John the John Wick movies it kinda changed that for the better to the point where I don’t think John Wick is responsible for this exactly, but I think this was a great year to do these awards because I think that twenty twenty two was a pretty high watermark for just theatrical action that, like, that we’ve had in the last few years. I mean, I I know Billgate you interviewed Kucinski, and he said he doesn’t view Top Gun as an action movie in I I mean, you know, with all due respect, I I kinda disagree with that. I don’t know if John Wick is directly responsible for that, but I do think we might start seeing different kinds of action in theaters finally after, you know, being dominated by superheroes.

Yeah. I think I think it’s a combination of factors. I think John Wick

is definitely one of them. I mean, you know, Stelowski met Keanu Reeves first when he was his stunt double on the matrix. And,

you

know, Keana Reeves is one of those people who has highlighted the work of his stunt team. He spends a lot of time with them. You know, I’m I’m told on on sets in films, you know. They basically, like, stay together and hang out together and stuff like that. And Part of that is just because of the the nature of the work that that they have to do, you know, they have to work together a lot.

But you know, it helps to have actors highlighting this work. You know, even somebody like Tom Cruise. Right? Because because the thing other people always, oh, Tom Cruise are always doing his own stunts blah blah. And he is.

But, you know, when you look at, you know, for example, that little documentary, little video doc that came out about them performing that insane stunt. For the next mission impossible film where he’s riding a a motorcycle off a off a ramp into a cliff and then turning it into a base jump with a parachute. Those You know, when he when he does stuff like that, you see him working closely with his stunt coordinator. You know, so he’s So maybe it’s not that he’s necessarily there’s an a ton of stuff about Tom Cruise’s stunt double, although I’m sure he has one. You know, it’s not that he doesn’t have one.

But there is a lot of, you know, you see how much work goes into these things. And that’s another way that this type of work gets, you know, gets mainstream, then people are able to sort of understand how much work goes into it, appreciate because once you see the word that goes into it, then you can also appreciate the art of it. Right? Because if you aren’t just doing it just to do it, they’re trying to do it in the way in in the most compelling interesting artful, beautiful way possible. And and, you know, the the success of films like RRR will also help in that in that regard.

So over the years, I think there has been a lot more a lot more attention put on this world. And as, you know, and as Brandon said, some of it also has to do with the fact that action has become

you

know, action has kinda taken over Hollywood. Right? I mean, action movies were always popular, obviously. But it has kind of become, I think, increasingly, not just a thing movies do to make money, but a thing that brings movies prestige. I mean, the fact that we have among this year’s best Oscar best picture Oscar nominees.

You know, we have Avatar. We have Top Gun Maverick. We have everything everywhere all at once. And, you know, hanging out in the sidelines were a number of movies that were also action oriented like the woman king or the North man, you know, films that a lot of people felt should have been nominated but weren’t. And and I think that speaks to the fact that once upon a time, it was seen as kind of, you know, a wild occurrence when an when an action film was nominated for for best picture.

Now it seems to happen more and

more. One thing Kucinski said to you, you know, he he in in the interview you did with him, he said he says, I I don’t really see these as action movies. I you know, this the action is telling part of the story. But that I mean, that that’s kind of the running thread through all of these movies. The action scenes in all of these movies are not just standalone showy set pieces.

I mean, they they are. Sometimes, but they’re but they’re they’re telling stories. I mean, this is an integral part of the storytelling of the film itself. Which is which is a really kind of I I think it’s an interesting way to look at these movies, but also just, again, reinforces the fact that these These sequences need greater recognition from from the their peers and, you know, critics and everybody else.

Yeah. I mean, I think I understood what he meant by that when he said that he didn’t really think of it as an action movie. I think because as as the director, he kind of can’t think of it as an action movie. I mean, it’s his job, if you will, to sort of make sure that you know,

there’s

an emotional through line to the film that the characters make sense that that, you know, their motivations and their reactions and their emotions are always foregrounded. I think if a filmmaker starts to see something as just an action movie, then they stop being able to do the thing that will make it a great action movie. Right? Because then they’ll just think of it as as as sequences. It’s just, you know, big action sequences, and they’ll just go for whatever is the most ganzo thing they can and we’ll kind of lose track of the story.

We’ll lose track of the characters. We’ll lose track of the emotions. I actually recently interviewed John Wu for a piece that will run later, but that’s also how he always approached You know? Like, he I mean, there’s actually something somebody once said about face off, which was they were actually talking about why this isn’t this isn’t what John Lu said, but this was actually I think maybe the the the writer of the original face off was talking about why he was so alarmed by discussions of a a face off sequel, which wouldn’t involved John Wu. But, you know, he said that they they keep talking about all the crazy action sequences they’re going to have, and it and John Lou never talked to me about the action sequences.

You know, John Lou always talk to me about the characters, about the emotions, about sort of what was happening in the story. And what was going to be the most interesting, exciting, emotional thing for the viewer to watch. It was never about, oh my god, now we’re gonna have the boats doing this stuff. So I think a director, the person who has to sort of keep track of the whole thing and to to help really make it work for an audience has a cinematic experience from beginning to end, they they almost can’t think of it as an action movie. You know?

So that that’s I think where Kucinski was coming from. Because I mean, all he’s made are action movies on. If you look at it right away, but he can’t think of it that way. But he’s the one person who can’t see it that way because otherwise the whole the whole project will collapse. And and I think that’s probably true of a lot of filmmakers.

And I, you know, thank God that that’s how they think of it because because, again, you know, something like Avatar something like Top Gun Maverick, something like The Woman King. These films work because the directors are keeping an eye on on sort of everything underneath the action, but they’re also making sure to create the most, you know, exciting action sequences they can

Just to add on to that, I think a lot of people forget too that when when you know you see a crazy scene in an action movie, you immediately attribute that to the director and you think, oh, you know, that director came up with that. That was awesome. But I I think a big reason why something like the stunner words are important is because kinda goes into what Bilgo was saying is with someone like Scott Adkins, for example, he he kind of when you see, like, a crazy fighter, a crazy action scene involving him, nine times out of ten. He’s come up with that, like, in conjunction with the director, he’s created that himself. And I think that, you know, it it’s it’s kind of important to be able to recognize that it’s not all the director doing these sort of things.

And so I I just I I like I like hearing that perspective, Bill, because you know, when you see something like Top Gun, you a lot of people just well, maybe not Top Gun because I think a lot of that authorship goes to Tom Cruise, but, like, I don’t know, something like do you know something like Avatar or something, you know, it all goes to James Cameron. He came up with all these crazy ideas and everything, but you never know, like, who on set was responsible for something that that you loved, that looked amazing. And I think it’s important to be able to make those distinctions and everything and realize it’s not just the director because like you said John Wu gets attributed for all these incredible scenes throughout, you know, cinema history, you know, going all the way back to hard boiled and the killer and everything. But it it’s nice to hear, you know, that he wasn’t even talking about the action with people. He like, because he has so much else on his mind that, you know, you forget that there’s hundreds of other people helping to bring this together.

One one director you did single out, Albert Pewn, Brandon, you he wins he wins the the lifetime achievement. Award. Could you did how did did was that was that a category that people were voted on, or was that did you just pick that? How how did that work?

Well, that that’s what’s interesting is it’s it I’ve kind of been joking to people that the PewM Lifetime Award and the fact that ambulance didn’t win anything proves that I didn’t rig any of this because the ambulance was my favorite movie last year and Pew news, like, one of, like, the directors who means the most to me. But when this was pitched to me, he the it was pitched to me as you know, would you like to write about him as the Lifetime Achievement winner? So it this I the whole stunt award idea months and months ago, was brought to me with him having pretty much already been decided as the winner of that award. So no one voted on that. That was something that was separate.

And I think it was done a little bit. It it was, you know, unfortunately, he had it was done after his passing, but I think it was just something that, you know, he’s he’s been reevaluated in recent years. You know, I think a lot of people still view him as, like, if they do know him at all, they might, you know, know him as, like, Captain America director, the the movie that, you know, no one really saw, but it’s, like, pretty terrible, but, you know, a lot of fun. But I think over the years, there’s been, like, a a small corner of Twitter that, you know, calls it self action Twitter that intermittently will share, like, a clip. I’m one of them that’ll share, like, clips from nemesis or something like that where it’s just like, you know, you you someone falling off a a building on fire, and it’s like, you can tell it was made for, like, ten dollars.

And you’re like, how does this look this good? How did how did they do this? And so I think it it was fun to kind it’s been fun over the last year or two to go back, look at his work, and realize that he had this time, of a through line with him in the last, like, thirty, forty years almost where it’s, like, he’s quiet he was quietly putting together, like, this amazing body of work with, you know, these really great martial artists, really great sun professionals and everything. And no one was really ever talking about it until recently that I that I saw. If they were talking about it, it was at, like, a midnight movie show where people would go to laugh at it or something like that.

And so, yeah, it was he was kind of pitched to me as the winner already, and I was excited about it because I think My my editor, she I think she knew how much I liked him, and that’s why it was pitched to me as that. So it’s kind of an off the wall choice for lifetime achievement winner because you could have gone with anyone with that. You could have gone like Michelle Yo, Tom Cruise, something like that. Gone, like, bigger, you know, bigger eye catching name and everything. But I I was really thought it was really kind of important to honor somebody like him for this first go around because I think he embodies the whole spirit of the awards as someone behind the scenes doing this incredible work that doesn’t get talked about enough.

Yeah.

Totally. Alright. That was everything I wanted to to ask you guys. I always like to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked. What what should folks know about either the lack of recognition in broader Hollywood, your guys’ awards, what what do you wanna see from this?

What what whatever? What what’s your folks know?

I think I would say that in terms of what I would like people, you know, we talked earlier about sort of some of the reasons people have given about why there isn’t a stunt Oscar and because it is kind of I mean, it it it it tends to be mysterious. They never actually explain why they keep knocking the idea down. But when we talked about how people are worried that, you know, stents are gonna become too dangerous if if there’s an award for it. I just wanted to add one more thing which is stents if anything have gotten safer. Over the years.

Right? I mean, it used to be people who were dying all the time, not all the time, but, like, you know, the the rate of fatalities and and serious injuries and things like that. Back in the day was so much worse. And it’s really I mean, stunts have gotten so much safer over the years. They’ve gotten, you know, even as they become more sophisticated, the equipment being used, the techniques being used have become safer.

You know, so so that’s I wanna make sure to emphasize that. Like, they’re becoming people are becoming more aware of them they’re being awarded more and more. They are maybe becoming more spectacular in terms of what you see on screen. But they’re also becoming safer and that’s that’s important because like I said, that’s honestly, you know, stunt professionals and stunt coordinators. That’s their number one job.

Is safety.

So

I just wanna reemphasize that idea. As far as the stunt awards, I will say, and I and I think it it it, you know, it was a ruthlessly democratic process. And one of the things though that we do wanna do is is try and expand our academy even more. You know, we had a few months to put this together. A lot of it involved, you know, poor brand Ron DeSantis down various publicists and contact information and asking other people to, you know, to put them in put them in touch with people and stuff like that.

Now we have a a really nice kind of group to work with, but we also wanna expand it because it’s a huge industry. Ron DeSantis we’d really love for more and more people, not just stunt professionals. Obviously, we want more stunt professionals to vote on it, vote in it. But, you know, more filmmakers and more writers and critics who who specialize in in this world and and how, you know, have a lot of thoughts about it. So you know, we intend to continue

it, but we also wanna make sure that that we grow it. Similar to that, I’d I’d love to see this continue to happen every year And I would, you know, hopefully, now that it’s out there, I’ve been seeing such a good response, different stunt people that I follow, excuse me, stunt professionals that I follow. On Instagram and Twitter and everything or shit, we’re sharing it all over the place, you know, talking about how cool this was, independent of just even me sending it to them. So it was nice to see it get around a little bit, so I would like to see, you know, more of a turnout, more of a wider range of people voting that way, you know, when someone’s favorite doesn’t make the list, we we can be we can emphasize that, you know, like Dolga said, it was very democratic, but I I also hope that it just I hope that it leads to people taking action more seriously, and I’m not gonna pretend like actions like an underdog of a genre, dominate box offices and everything. But I do think that there’s, like, a still a mindset of a certain kind of film person who will you know, say, oh, that was a a good, you know, fun movie, but it’s not an Oscar movie.

And I think that I hope that as, you know you know, I I feel like that started to wind down a little bit, you know, when Mad Max was nominated for Best Picture. And it’s slowly eroding a little bit, but I think in, you know, the last twenty years keep hearing about, like, elevated horror and prestige horror. I don’t wanna hear that for action, but I do hope that it it keeps being taken as seriously as horror has become taken seriously. And I hope that, you know, we were maybe a small part of that somehow.

Fingers crossed. Alright. Bill, yeah, Brandon, thank you for being on sure. I really appreciate it. Again, guys should go everyone is listening.

Should go check out the the package they put together. It’s really it’s it’s it is impressive and in-depth and entertaining as hell. I mean, this is the other thing that, you know, you guys you guys mentioned is that just like the Oscars themselves would be more fun if they had clips of stunts. They kind of interspersed, maybe they could do live stunts on the show. I don’t know, because do do something that would would make make things a little more entertaining.

I think folks would love it, but, you know, it’s a it is in and up itself in art form worth celebrating and and praising. So anyway, I’m Sunny Bunch, and culture editor at the Bulwark, and I will be back next week with another episode. We’ll see you guys

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