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The 2024 Stunt Awards!

March 23, 2024
Notes
Transcript
On this week’s episode I’m thrilled to be rejoined by Brandon Struessnig and Bilge Ebiri, who spearhead Vulture’s annual Stunt Awards. We talked about the year’s big winner, John Wick Chapter 4, how folks kind of have to decide for themselves how much CGI is too much CGI when determining what counts as practical and what counts as digital, and compiling the 100 most influential fight scenes of all time. Some important links for you: 
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This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:06

    Welcome back to the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. My name is Sunny Bunch. I’m called editor at the Bulwark. And I’m very pleased to be rejoined by Brandon Strisening and Bill Gayberry, of Vulture. They are the the kind of major domos of the vulture action stunt award, spectacular, now annual.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:24

    You don’t you never call an award show annual after the first one because you don’t know. Might that might might be a one and done. But it is now officially, an annual thing because we’ve got two years running. Congratulations, guys. Thank you.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:37

    Alright. I so I was I was excited about this year’s awards because you guys asked me to nominate ate and vote on the the entries. Hopefully, I did, accreditable job there. But it was an interesting kind of peek behind the scenes because there’s a lot of things you have to think about when you’re putting together lists like this. For instance, one category in particular gave me a ton of trouble.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:59

    And I wanna I wanna run I wanna run it by you guys because but maybe I was maybe I was alone here. Maybe maybe I’m the only one, thinking too much about this. But it was the the practical explosion effect, because that the sort of thing where it’s very sometimes it’s very, very hard to judge what is practically done, what is digitally done, what is, you know, a fake CGI thing. For instance, I love the the what ended up, coming in second place just barely with the extraction. Fist fire fist punch jail breakout sequence.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:33

    Great sequence. I love that. But I wasn’t a hundred percent sure his hand was actually on fire. I don’t know. I wasn’t sure.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:40

    So how how do you how did you guys kind of navigate that? Do were there did people have questions like, how did that actually work?
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:48

    So we we do have we we do have someone behind the scenes a little bit who does work with, like, VFX and everything. Who has helped us in the past, like, for example, last year, a a big question was the Batman. I when the Batman was nominated, like, the explosion, you know, after the big chase scene, I thought that was all fake and that wasn’t. So that surprised me. But but I don’t know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:11

    That that is something that we have to do a lot of like research into luckily for extraction, I had, I I had interviewed Sam Hargrave, like, a long time ago last year in talked about doing that scene, and he spoke very openly about lighting Chris hemsworth on fire. So so that one was a little bit easier, but yeah, it is it is something that we have to put a lot of, like, thought into and, like, look look into who, like, what, what was actually done because, you know, sometimes you’re right. It it it is all CG and you don’t even know it.
  • Speaker 3
    0:02:43

    Yeah. I mean, and even with something like, Oppenheimer, know, which is obviously pretty much totally, practical. We’re talking about multiple explosions. We’re talking about multiple explosions. In multiple places and with multiple chemicals and things like that to to enhance certain elements.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:01

    You know, so even there, we’re, I mean, we’re talking about a specific explosion on screen, but really all the work that goes into it, be it practical or v effects or you know, a combination of those. I mean, it’s always, you know, the line is always changing. It’s not just with stuff like explosions. I mean, last year, last year, you know, we had the big fight in RRR, which some people at the time said, oh, that looks very CG. And in fact, the the the same, the same colleague of ours who who works in VFX was like, you know, it took him thirty days to shoot it.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:37

    You know, like, yeah, there’s probably a lot of CG in there, but, like, it’s, it counts, you know. Mhmm.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:44

    And and, I mean, look, that that is the other thing that is, hard to hard to disentangle in the modern filmmaking environment. Because even even the stuff that is touted as like here is this great practical effect. We’re gonna have Tom Cruise jumping off a mountain into a base jump off a motorcycle. And, you know, we all watched the, the behind the scenes stuff when they were when they were putting that together. We saw the the amount of, you know, kind of CGI painting that goes into making the the making it all look like it should for the movie that it so it doesn’t just look like a ramp that it does, you know, there is there is an effect.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:21

    There are digital effects when you guys are thinking about this, where do you draw the line on what counts as a practical effect and what counts as a digital effect?
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:33

    That’s a good question.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:36

    I don’t know that we draw a line specifically. I mean, I it sort of changes with each one. It’s kind of You know, first of all, people vote, you know, people vote and they’ll vote for all sorts of things. And we try to stay as true as possible to the tally. And usually, don’t know at any time we’ve we’ve actually gotten votes for something and said, no, no, no, that doesn’t count.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:57

    You know, because these people are professionals or people in the know about this world, you know, I mean, I don’t know. I mean, you’re not gonna get votes for, like, an animated film. I mean, you know, I’m I’m trying to think of examples because that’s the other thing. I mean, we And I think we’ve, we’ve, we do this in the media too, obviously. You know, we tend to create this sort of, almost imaginary battle between CG, VFX, and practical stunts special effects, what have you.
  • Speaker 3
    0:05:32

    To the point where now, like, v f x means CGI and special effects means the other thing, and that’s not that’s not actually true. And, you know, on most movies, people are collaborating on this stuff. I mean, they’re working together. And so you might see an explosion that’s been, you know, kind of goofed up with CG, you know, computer generated effects, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that there wasn’t an explosion there. Right?
  • Speaker 3
    0:05:55

    I mean, And, yeah, like you mentioned, the the base jump in, in, in mission impossible, you know, like he’s he’s driving that thing off a ramp. Right? Right? And in the movie, it’s like it looks like a cliff. It actually kind of looks slightly fake once you know that there’s a ramp there and that it’s actually, like, just a painted, you know, cliff that he’s drop jumping off of.
  • Speaker 3
    0:06:18

    It’s a it’s a ramp, you know. And, yeah, if if if you would if you would jump the motorcycle off an Acliff, it would not go, it would not go like that, you know. So so yeah. I mean, so so there’s you have to, like, the the line changes with each effect. And with these And
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:37

    I I do I do like how the line has changed a little bit too because, like, when you think of something like way of water, that like, you you watch that movie, and I think your brain almost forgets that there are people on a set doing stunts for that movie because it is all animated at the end of the day, but, like, it’s there’s just, like, such a, like, they they they merge together. And, like, that’s the clearest example I can think of, like, the two like, practical and, you know, visual effects kind of. Well, I guess, like you said, Belga, there is people kind of conflate visual effects with CGI, which isn’t true. But but yeah, like, it that I I do like how the line is kind of being blurred a little bit because I’ll admit, like, I loved way of water. It was one of my favorite movies from, like, I guess that was two years ago now.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:20

    Mhmm. But but I completely, like, it just went right over my head that, yeah, of course, there’s people on a you know, fist fighting, doing stunts and everything, and they’re just, you know, they’re they’re wearing, you know, tennis balls.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:33

    Mhmm. Yeah. No. It is it’s interesting to think about, especially be because again, you we we watch the we watch the behind the scenes, you know, post production stuff. And we see, you know, my favorite thing about Avatar, the Way of Water, there’s a sequence where James Cameron is explaining, like, well, I had to make his forearm like, three inches longer in this shot.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:54

    And we did that. We did that digitally. And it’s just like, you don’t notice any of this at the time, but also people are actually doing the things. You have to make there has to be a person there, their arm to make longer. You know, it’s it’s it’s interesting.
  • Speaker 3
    0:08:06

    Yeah. And in fact, I mean, even if you if you look at, like, classic Disney animated films. I mean, if you look at the production histories of those, very often, they’re drawing from life, you know, you know, they’re they’re drawing from life. They have life models. I mean, you know, one of my favorite books as a kid, and I still have it somewhere around here was the art of animation, which I believe came out around the time of sleeping beauty.
  • Speaker 3
    0:08:28

    But it has a lot of behind the scenes photos of the animators working. It’s like when the prince is going through the, you know, the the the the the forest of thorns. Like, that’s an actual guy that they’re drawing who’s going through, like, you know, thorns, and he’s got a little fake sword and everything. I mean, so there’s a lot of we think all this stuff is made up, and it’s just not. You know, that’s it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:51

    I think, I think the death of the DVD Extra has really hurt the way we talk about things. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:08:57

    No. It has, actually.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:58

    Yeah. Totally. I mean, it’s it’s again, the you you you watch these things and you get a a real I don’t know. We we talk we talk about, criterion and whatever as film school in a box, and there is an element of that too. These action films themselves.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:14

    Alright. So let’s talk about the awards. Let’s talk about the actual awards. I mean, this was obviously, this was the year of John wick for, you know, when I was discussing it with you, Brandon, I was like, I could’ve picked John Wick in every category pretty much, almost except for the, you know, stunt sequence in a non action film. Let’s let’s let us pay tribute to, John Wick four and and the not just the excellent stunts, but the, variety, that that encompassed, the awards this year.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:46

    Brandon, you wanna you wanna pick your favorite sequence. There there are probably like six different sequences you could pick for your favorite from, from the film. What’s yours?
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:53

    It’s so funny because before I answer that, I just wanna, like, shout Bilga out. Again, I already did it on Twitter after the awards, but, like, you saw the movie early, and He he tweeted like right after seeing it. Like, I I think we need to add a best fall category for the stunts. For John Wick, and, and that’s what ended up winning stunt of the year was the stair fall. And I and I remember someone even asked him though, like, well, so I forget, like, something about, like, Someone asked him for clarification.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:21

    He’s like, well, actually, there’s like multiple falls in the movie that could that could be nominated. So it’s like, I just I like you said, there’s there’s such a diversity of stunt work in John Wick for a loan that it’s like kind of nuts. And I do think at the end of the day, it is the stairfall. That’s my favorite. It’s like that’s I think that’s such a night, already iconic scene.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:39

    It’s just so it’s it’s such a perfect encapsulation of like Johnwick as a character, his journey over the four movies, and it’s just it’s just like bananas to watch. And and I I love that we were able to kind of point out that, like, I think there was a, again, people forgetting, you know, all the work that goes into this kind of stuff. There were a lot of people that were like, I can’t believe Keana got thrown down in a flight of stairs, and it was like, well, he didn’t. It was Vincent Boulogne. And so I was happy to be able to shout him out a little bit too because He did like the the lion’s share of that work, but that that’s probably my favorite stunt in that movie was was just Rick being thrown down the stairs.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:17

    Bill Billga, what it what was your what what did what did you what did you what do you now we’re, I don’t know, a year out or so of Johnwick for looking back on it? What is your favorite sequence from that that film.
  • Speaker 3
    0:11:27

    I think my favorite sequence is probably the, the arc de triomphe, you know, Carmelee. I don’t even know what to call it. Froger. The froggers are. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:11:40

    And it’s and it’s funny because it’s not, Like, it’s not a stunt. You know, it’s like a million stunts. There are dog stunts. They’re, you know, there’s fighting stunts. There’s shooting.
  • Speaker 3
    0:11:50

    There’s car stunts. There’s I’m tons of CGI, I’m sure. You know, so it’s all I always feel weird calling something like that is stunt, but that’s, you know, that’s certainly my favorite sequence. I love the, I love the fall too, though. I mean, the fall is great because it’s so playful.
  • Speaker 3
    0:12:07

    And in the end, like a fall, like high falls are obviously impressive. But, you know, a stair fall is, like, It’s kind of a rinky dink stunt on screen, like, just in in like, although probably of all the stunts that people do, that might be the one that actually hurts the most. But I love how just like, it just goes on and on and on and it becomes you know, it it achieves this almost meta quality where you’re like, okay, that’s that’s a stunt, then they’re just going for it, and they’re doing it. And it’s, and it’s like, There’s no, like, you don’t you don’t have to worry about authenticity. It’s just it’s a guy rolling down the stairs or he’s doing it over and over again.
  • Speaker 3
    0:12:49

    And it kind at some point, you’re like, well, at some point, he would probably break his fall and not go all the way. But, like, I kinda want to see him go all the way down, so I’m totally locked in, you know. Like, it it it it’s the kind of stunt that creates this almost that creates this dialogue between the viewer and the movie where you’re kinda like Okay. I see what they’re doing there. It’s like it’s a fourth wall thing almost, you know, breaking a fourth wall thing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:14

    Yeah. Yeah. I Brandon, I was glad you mentioned Vincent Beyond because I wanna, give I want I wanna draw attention to his work, but also the work of Marco’s Rohr who is, who is great and whose face you see, you know, more because he’s, you know, also playing a character in in the movie, and that is that is really the whole point of this, exercise is to to remind people that these are actual professionals who are, doing dangerous things for our entertainment and somebody should, pay some attention to them and give them some, give give them some love.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:50

    Yeah. And I I liked this year. I think in that category, we we had a better spread of what it actually means to be a stunt performer because you have you had people who are choreographers, you had doubles, you had actors on screen like markers or or and I think last year, there was a little bit of, like, oh, well, we saw someone on screen doing stunts. And so that’s who’s gonna nominated. And that’s fine too.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:11

    Like Scott Adkins won last year. And I think that there is a little bit of a blurring of the line between people like him and Marco Zervo because they will show up in create some of the choreographies, Adkins, especially. I mean, I don’t know how much he did for John Wick, but, like, on his own movies where he’s the star, he’s responsible for most of the choreography. So I do like being able to highlight that stuff. And, yeah, like, a guy like Marco Zurer, he’s been someone that I’ve loved for years, and it’s just it’s been it was so fun to be able to see him get to kinda I mean, he was, like, the one of the main heavies in Johnwick, and it was, like, so fun to see him, you know, do all that, and then also in his own, you know, little DTV world, have a movie like fist of the Jonathan Last year where he kind of created an entire new martial art for that movie.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:56

    I don’t remember the exact details behind that. I did interview him and he told me all about it and I feel bad because it was up so long ago, but But, yeah, he just he’s such an interesting guy, and it’s just very fun to be able to highlight those kind of people because it gives you a look into how How extensive stunt work is in Hollywood? It’s not just somebody, you know, falling off a building onto, like, a mattress. You know, there’s a lot of different facets to it.
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:20

    Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s the other thing about this year’s stunt awards that I even though, even though one movie won, like, almost all the awards, Like, I felt like the stunt awards were actually evolving a little bit, and and people were becoming a little more aware of the actual stunt performers. Part of it was last year, you know, we had Top Gun Maverick, which is I mean, when you get to Tom Cruise movie, it’s all about him and how he does his own stunts and, you know, and and Maverick last year was defined by the fact that, you know, they sent all those actors up in those planes to get the real, you know, real, you know, facial responses to, like, you know, five gs or whatever the hell it is. And, and I think that, like, people are learning more about stunts and how stunts work.
  • Speaker 3
    0:16:14

    And as that happens, you get more interesting choices and and you get just more interesting conversation around it. I think something similar is gonna happen with the fall guy, you know, like the guy, which is all about snuff doubles. I mean, the thing David Leach told me when I interviewed him about it, and just kind of about how, you know, how they used doubles and things like that and how, you know, he was a stunt double obviously for many years for a variety of people including most notably Brad Pitt. And he said, you know, we’re all playing the character. You know, like, it’s it’s it’s about keeping the character alive.
  • Speaker 3
    0:16:49

    I mean, yes, the actor is kind of the person that’s identified with the character, but we’re all kind of playing the character. You know, so And in the fall guy, you know, Ryan Gosling has he has a guy to do his high falls. He has a guy to do his parkour and to you know, get hit by a car. He has a guy who does his vehicular stunts, and he’s been very good about highlighting them. So, so really it’s like five guys playing that character, and I think people are becoming more and more aware of that now.
  • Speaker 3
    0:17:18

    It’s not just this actor’s doing his own stunts, and maybe there’s a double who kind of shows up every once in a while. It’s like, oh, yeah. Yeah. There’s a bunch of people playing this character, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:30

    Yeah. In in that vein, can we talk, Brandon for a minute about Henry? It it kinky. Is that Yeah. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:37

    Can we talk Henry Kingy, because I I loved your your, a tribute to him as, you know, the the kind of lifetime achievement award because it’s not just I remember him from predator two. Right? I and and, you know, and and movies like that. But the the stuff I was actually I had no idea about was that he was also a driver on the fast and furious movies. And, you know, the the he is a he is a, accomplished stunt professional across many different disciplines.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:04

    As well as something of a civil rights activist in in his own way. So what tell tell tell folks about educate people about mister Kingy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:12

    So he was very fun to write about him to talk to because he he, like, honestly, I could have listened to him talk forever. We had like a two hour conversation and and not And I asked maybe five questions across those two hours. Like, he just he was very, what’s the word? Forthcoming, and it was just so cold a list of his story, and he like, you you could go many different ways for lifetime achievement. You but, like, I feel like At least my goal with this is to give someone the, you know, tribute that wouldn’t normally get it because, like, we everything’s been said about a guy like Jackie Chan or something.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:48

    So, so for a guy like Henry Kingie, it was really fun to be able to illuminate, you know, he’s he’s the kind of guy that, you might see on screen, and you think like, oh, that’s just an extra or something. And, you know, you wouldn’t think of it, like in predator two. Like, he has a very memorable scene, but you wouldn’t give that kind of character or like your actor. I mean, second thought, but then listening to him talk and then, you know, I talked a little bit to Craig Vaxley who had worked with him on the a team and, on, it’s, stone cold with Brian Bulwark, one of my favorite movies. And it’s just hearing, hearing all the different stories about how, you know, he He’s responsible for driving and and stuff that you would never even think about.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:30

    The one that blew me away was in Fast five, the vault heist I completely, you know, we’re talking about the melding of CG and, practical. I had no idea that the that that vault was practical on any level. Like, and and the fact that it was built around a pickup truck that he was driving. And part of the reason for that he said was that he was brought brought onto the series for the fourth movie And after it came out, the stunt team and the director all had a discussion. Like, they were all like, we didn’t like the CG in that fourth movie at all.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:58

    It was terrible. Let’s figure out a way to do this better. And that was part of it was, you know, something that you could have just done in post, you know, create a vault and everything was like, no, let’s try to make this look as real as possible. So we’re gonna put a guy inside, like, a pickup truck and drag him around a little bit. And I just thought that that was so fascinating.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:15

    I never considered that before talking to him.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:18

    Yeah. I I mean, I had no idea of myself. I was I always just assumed it was, fairly good, but I always assumed it was just CGI.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:26

    Yeah. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:20:28

    That’s the thing about about stunts and stunt professionals in talking to them. Is They are so fun to talk to. They have the greatest stories, and they’re not like magicians who, you know, wanna keep other stuff secret. Like, they love talking about how they did this stuff. And they can really get in to, to, like, the the nitty gritty of it This is actually this is one of the reasons why over the years, I I became such a kind of, you know, such a proponent of, like, towards.
  • Speaker 3
    0:20:57

    I was never like a big action guy, you know. Like, I was I was the guy who was watching, like, you know, Italian movies and stuff as a kid. Like, I came to action later. But part of it was over the years. I just noticed every time I interviewed a stunt person, like, I would, you know, I remember I had to interview, King Hodder who played know, Jason Voorhees in a bunch of movies.
  • Speaker 3
    0:21:16

    And then, you know, I I did an interview with, Randy Bulwark, kind of assessing how, you know, ranking Tom Cruise’s stunts. He’d never worked with Tom Cruise, but he knew how they had done all these various stunts. And when they talk about this stuff, it’s like mind expanding. Right? It’s not just Oh, I had a bunch of pads and I jumped off a thing and I was on a bungee cord.
  • Speaker 3
    0:21:44

    It’s like, no, no, like, here are the different things that you have to do, and here are the calculations you have to make. Like, they’re actually like, this is really sophisticated stuff. Like, again, with the fall guy, I was talking I was talking to them about doing like this, you know, two hundred fifty foot, you know, car jump, And it’s like there’s so much math is involved in this thing and, like, calculating wind resistance and all these, like, cool nerdy things that they’re doing. Which, you know, then you realize, oh, right. Like, stunt people are like, you know, they’re they’re operating on many levels and they have to operate on all those levels and they have to be really good at good at all those levels because otherwise people die, you know.
  • Speaker 3
    0:22:24

    Yeah. Yeah. And that’s one of the things that that, you know, over the years what’s made me so kind of militant about you know, giving these people an Oscar finally is like, you know, they are doing so much work and so much preparation. And, you know, incorporating all sorts of science and math and all this stuff as well as it’s like just films film making savvy. It’s really, it’s really just so impressive what they do and they love talking about it.
  • Speaker 3
    0:22:50

    They’re just like the most fun people to interview always because they have no media training. You know, they have no filter. They’ll just go on. You know, it’s great.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:58

    Well, well, that’s, like, Ken Henry also, like, he told me a story about on Bad Boys how he almost died doing, you know, there’s that famous scene in bad I mean, I don’t know how famous it is. It’s famous for me because I love my pay, but, like, when they’re going down the the hillside and like wrecking into all those little huts, I mean, that’s straight out of police story, which made me happy. But, But he told a story about how they they did all these, they they they had all these precautions and put all this work into making sure it went exactly right. But then the thing that almost killed him was just a freak thing where, like, you know, it somehow the bulletproof glass was like pierced by a piece of wood and that that just that shouldn’t happen and it’s just like a freak accident. And he’s telling me the story and the what what what I found so striking is like, He’s like it was with an inches of piercing my heart, but he’s cry he’s laughing his ass off the entire time he’s telling the story and it’s just so funny because it’s like I’m I’m sitting there and riveted and also like, oh my god.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:55

    You could have died. And he’s like, no. It was great. I had so much fun.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:59

    Yeah. Stunt guys are definitely built different. Did you guys think that we were gonna get a, stunt category announcement at the Oscars when they started that Mona Charen, and then they kinda pulled the rug out. Now, just just a montage, just a montage folks.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:12

    I definitely did. I I was kinda hopeful for a minute and then that just went nowhere, but was nice to see them acknowledge it, I guess.
  • Speaker 3
    0:24:20

    I feel like I feel like, I feel like it’s going to happen more than a I have been often skeptical in the past that it would happen. I feel more than ever now that it’s it’s going to happen, especially if the fall guy is hit. I knew they weren’t gonna announce it because there is actually a song at the end of fall guy about how there’s no Oscar for stunts. So Just in terms of just the juju of that movie, it would not make sense to announce an Oscar, like, right before it comes out maybe after. But, No.
  • Speaker 3
    0:24:49

    I mean, you know, they they they announced the casting, casting director award this year, which I think is actually a very good thing. I think the absolutely, you know, casting directors, should should have an Oscar. And they have been trying to get one for a long time, and they’re, you know, they’re an actual, branch of the academy, so it makes perfect sense. But I and I think that announcement of that Oscar category makes it brings us closer to the stunt, stunt Oscar as well. Because it’s for the longest time, it was like we can’t edit any more categories, we gotta or categories.
  • Speaker 3
    0:25:25

    Show is too long. Movies suck anyway. We need less awards. Why do we even have the Oscars? You know?
  • Speaker 3
    0:25:30

    Why can’t we just have the Grammys, you know? And it’s like, it just got so annoying, for a while. And now they’ve doubled back and Oh, right. This is actually the awards show people watch. Like, they don’t watch the others.
  • Speaker 3
    0:25:42

    We should maybe not try to be like the freaking Emmys, and maybe we should be more like the Oscars. So they’ve they’ve gotten better at celebrating the movies. They’ve gotten better about the categories and, like, putting them on TV and putting them on the show. And, apparently, they don’t have any problems with adding a category now. So it’s like, well, you know, all your most of your arguments against the stunt Oscar are now gone.
  • Speaker 3
    0:26:05

    You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:06

    Yeah. And and I’m hopeful too because when I spoke to Stahowski last year, I asked him about it. And he said, like, like, yeah. He’s like, he’s like, I’m one of the people that meet with the academy. Like, they, you know, and we talk about, you know, what’s this gonna look like?
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:18

    And his big point, which, which I completely understand because we kinda had trouble with putting these awards together in the first place was he was like, who do you award though? And he was like, that’s our that’s our big, what we’re running into right now is like, where does the award go? And I think that we’ve gotten better about that this year, especially with, you know, who were supposed to award, you know, because there’s so many people that that go the stunt goes into and, you know, you can’t You can’t just say, oh, what was the director? Oh, is this or that? So Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:43

    So that is something that I think the Oscars are running into, but at the same time, every time I hear that, I mean, of course, I’m not involved he would know way more than I would, but I’m always just like, just like pick someone and just give it to them. Like, but I know it’s more complicated than that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:57

    Sure. No. Totally. And look, here’s, you know, I I I have a I have a stunt stuntman friend who lives in Dallas now and we we get together every once in a while. And he he takes issue with the push for the Academy Award for stunts.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:12

    I think we may have talked about this last year a little bit, but his his argument is very much the same here as who do you award? And also, you know, how do you stop the stunt coordinator from putting himself into the best stunt And how do you, you know, how do you stop people from, like, trying to one up each other so much that somebody gets killed, you know, trying to win an award. Like, Those are those are the things that he and I think some other folks in the in in that circle think about. I mean, it is it is It’s a it’s a concern. It’s a concern.
  • Speaker 3
    0:27:42

    It’s a concern, but it’s not I mean, I’m not concerned about it. Well, here’s the thing. First of all, in terms of who who gets the award, for I mean, I think Stahelski has kind of taken over from Jack Gil, who was the guy for the longest time trying to get this award to happen. And Jack’s thing was always, it goes to the stunt court. You know, if you’re giving an award for best stunts, it goes to the stunt court.
  • Speaker 3
    0:28:06

    If you’re giving an award for like best specific stunt, then, you know, then you get into issues of, like, well, who performed it? Who did this? Who did that? But really, you just go for best stunts. Now, SAG obviously has a best stunt ensemble award but that’s also because it’s sag.
  • Speaker 3
    0:28:18

    It’s, you know, data, you know, the sag awards, the performers, and the people who are members of sag, you know. So, And, so I think it would go to the, you know, the stunt coordinator, or action designer, if you Will Saletan as for people want, I mean, look, there are stunt awards already, and there’s a sag award. There’s, you know, the the the Canadian Academy gives one It was stunned have their own awards or the Torres Awards. We give a like, there there there are already pretty, pretty big incentives to to go start killing people if that was what a thing that they were going to do. But also like I mean, you know, and, and look, you know, sonny, you said your, your friend is a stunt person.
  • Speaker 3
    0:29:03

    So I would defer to their expertise in this matter, but you know, their first job is security. Like, that’s the very first thing they do. Like, that’s not, you know, yes, they’re trying to design spectacular stunts and all that, but, like, safety is like the number one rule, the number two rule, the number three rule. And if anything, over the years, stunts have gotten Safer. Right?
  • Speaker 3
    0:29:27

    I mean, like, it used to be back in the days when nobody gave a crap about the stunt people. They were like, dying left and right. They were underpaid. They were totally anonymous, you know. And over the years, as it’s become a more visible session and there have been awards and things like that and people paid more attention to them, they haven’t been, you know, there isn’t, I mean, yes, every once in a while, tragic things do happen, but it’s not like there’s been this increase in, you know, danger, and, injury and things like that.
  • Speaker 3
    0:29:58

    So, it hasn’t happened as far as I can tell, and there have been more and more awards. So I don’t know that the Oscar is going to be this one award that suddenly clicks into place, you know, everybody’s death instinct. So, you know, I don’t know. I mean, there’s also a lot of people on film sets who look down on the stunt people. And I and I feel like some of that comes some of that comes into play here because it’s kinda like Well, you know, these these these yokels are gonna kill themselves trying to get a, you know, big gold statue.
  • Speaker 3
    0:30:32

    It’s like, no, they’re professionals, man. They wanna die. Like, I I’m, like, I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m supposed to say about this. Like, you know.
  • Speaker 3
    0:30:40

    Yeah. Yeah. Like, why would they why would they endanger themselves? I mean, they’ll they’ll do what they need to do to, you know, to work on the film. I mean, like, you know, you’re not giving an award for most danger that you’re giving over for best stuff.
  • Speaker 3
    0:30:53

    Like, you know, it’s it’s that’s kind of it. Yeah. When one
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:59

    of my favorite categories this year, because it was, I it was it was it was a difficult one to, pick the the choices for because you really have to, like, think in a different sort of way, but it was about the, best stunt sequence in a non action film, which, leads to I I I believe it was Jennifer Lawrence won that one right for the or the the the team behind the, the Jennifer Lawrence fight on the the beach, the nude fight, and, in, oh, Christ. I’m
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:28

    No hard feelings. No hard feelings.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:29

    No hard feelings. Thank you.
  • Speaker 3
    0:31:31

    But there, but there was there were a a
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:32

    bunch of great sequences in in these movies. I remember, again, I was, like, sitting and thinking, like, god, what am I gonna pick? Well, oh, yeah. I really I I didn’t love bottoms, but I did really like that last sequence in bottom. That was that was pretty funny.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:43

    We should get that in there. And then Bo was afraid had that great, you know, running across the street sequence. When you were, well, wait, I I’m just curious, how how other folks kind of reacted to that sequence and, and, or, that that award and how the decision, it how the people you talk to, like, kinda made up their minds on what to pick there? Cause it is it’s a weird one to think about.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:08

    It it is it’s funny. Like, that that does get the most disparate amount of, nominations because, like, there’s just so much that people draw from And I think from what I’ve seen just in terms of, like, reaction to it is when every time the awards are announced, like, especially on Twitter, it seems like that’s one of the ones that people are talking about the they’re just very excited that, like, it’s such a weird category because, like, like you said, like, there’s, like, I mean, Boe is afraid it’s a very weird funny movie, but it also is like an, like, kind of like an Art House movie. So you have that, and then you have, like, you know, a rom com with no hard feelings. You have just like a straight up comedy bottoms and like a drama with the iron cloth and everything. It’s just such a funny, like, group of things, and I It’s I think that’s my favorite category every year.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:54

    And one of the hard things was to to determine was, like, is that actually Jennifer Lawrence? And, like, from what I was able to find, like, I think most of that was, which is crazy. Because one of my one of my friends kept pointing out, he was like, if that’s her, she’s doing one of the best suplexes I’ve ever seen in my life. And and I don’t know if that’s her, but, like, it’s hard to tell, and then you don’t wanna get into the weird weeds of like, what do I pause it and try to see if it’s her? But I’m but then I’m not pause it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:21

    You know, like, I don’t wanna be a creep. It’s like,
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:24

    frame by frame break. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:33:27

    Is mister skin still around? Is that do you remember that that little website?
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:33

    You know?
  • Speaker 3
    0:33:35

    No. It’s I but again,
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:36

    it’s just it’s just such an it’s a fun interesting category because like you say, there’s it’s hard to make. Alright. So so John Wicks four is the big winner of the year. And it really kinda sucked the oxygen out of a lot of the the other films that that that got nominated and and got some attention. So what, if you had to pick one sequence from a non John wick film for folks to watch, what would you guys pick from twenty twenty three?
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:01

    So I’ll let you I’ll let you think for a second here then I’ll then go to I’ll go to Brandon first.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:07

    So I I have an answer right out of the gate, and it’s probably not the best stunt that was nominated, but it’s one that I think my mission in life is to get people to watch more DTV action. And so it it’s always nice when that stuff gets nominated and It’s not the greatest fight in the world. It’s not like one but but it really did blow me away. There’s, a fight in sniper grit, which is the tenth sniper movie. That’s actually I’m sorry.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:30

    It’s sniper g r I t because an acronym because they’re they’re GI Joe now. But, like, I didn’t know that there were ten sniper movies. One of my friends, he goes by Vice Victus on Twitter. He’s, like, been a big proponent of these. Some of these are actually good.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:44

    People need to check them out. And I didn’t realize that I knew that there were a couple sniper sequels with Tom Bar Behringer. I didn’t know that they were ten, that they’re all in Canon with one another. Most of them are about his son. And I just I watched this movie, and I was blown away by how fun it was, how good it looked, But then there’s a fight at the end where the character lady death played by Luna Fujiimoto who’s like an up and coming martial artist.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:04

    It’s like a one or two take fight scene, and That that can get kinda old after a while. Like, everyone’s trying to do the one take scene, but there’s just something really exciting about this very low budget movie just breaking out. Like, they’re like, hey, we haven’t accomplished Marshall here. Let’s show let her let’s let her show off what she can do, and it’s really fun to watch, and she’s very talented. And so that’s the one I would, you know, wanna highlight and have people seek out because I think it I think this this attitude’s changing, but I still think a lot of people think DTV or, like, you know, Bruce Willis movies you find at Walmart that nobody’s watching, but there’s a lot of good stuff and I think that’s like a definitely one of the better ones in the last few years.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:43

    Alright. Bilga?
  • Speaker 3
    0:35:46

    You know, it’s not I don’t think it’s really considered a stunt. And in fact, the filmmaker doesn’t even really think of it as a stunt, but So, the one I keep, thinking about is, the crash at the Milamilia in, Michael Mann’s Ferrari, you know, the big climactic, horrific, crash that, like, kills nine people. I, I I I did a whole piece about this, and I, you know, I interviewed man and I interviewed some other folks about it. And you know, the the the the kind of preparation and work that went into it. Lots of CG happening in that scene.
  • Speaker 3
    0:36:24

    But, you know, that is an actual car that’s flying through the air. And in fact, I mean, the, you know, man described how they prepared for that scene. They they went to an airfield and just, like, launched like six miatas into the air just to see how they would roll. You know, they use the they use this thing called an air cannon. Which is, which I I didn’t know about, but I I learned about this, which is, you know, and and by the way, very good air can and, air can and roll seen in, the fall guy.
  • Speaker 3
    0:36:53

    But, there it’s a, you know, it’s a device. It was actually, you know, it was first used on the on the film, the q. And in fact, it was often referred to, I believe, as the m q canon, but, it’s it’s built into it’s built into the side of the car. And it’s, you know, it’s it’s, like, it’s a pressurized thing that basically as the car is driving, you punch it, it hits the it hits the ground and then launches the car into the air and and has it do do that role. So, basically, they, you know, they tested and apparently, miatas, are, sort of the the exact sort of specifications as the Ferrari cars were, that they, you know, that they were working within the film.
  • Speaker 3
    0:37:36

    So, so they rolled this thing and they had actually stuck there wasn’t a driver inside the car, but, they they, they rolled, they rolled the car, and then there were stunt people, in its path, who were kind of there, And then they they replaced them with dummies, had the car roll into them, and then they put the people back in, and then sort of digitally merged everything. But, you know, so there’s like stunts involved in that scene. Although, you know, people wouldn’t really describe it as a stunt, but to me, it’s kinda like, well, that’s one of the best scenes. In of the year. And that’s like Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:38:14

    A movie that people as far as I’m concerned really need to see. So Well, it’s a I I mean,
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:19

    I saw that one in a theater, and it say very much air goes out of the room sequence, like a collective gasp of breath. Yeah. When that when that unfolds, it’s it’s pretty intense. Okay. I the the there’s so much more to cover here, but, the the last thing I wanted to to focus on was the, the hundred best stunt sequences.
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:41

    Package that you guys put together as as part of this, which is, I I I’ve sent this to several people and just said, look, I you know, you don’t have to watch all the clips, but it’s kind of amazing just to go through them and watch the progression of action as concept on film over the last hundred and twenty years or whatever, you know, all the way back to the first cat video, as, as you guys put it. What when you are alright. So let’s let’s take one step back. You come up with this idea. You’re like, alright.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:14

    We need a hundred action sequences. How are we gonna put this together? How did you guys, I mean, narrow the list down? I I I think I saw on Twitter, you said one of you guys said that you were like, well, are we even gonna have a hundred sequences? Are there a hundred sequences?
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:30

    And then you were like, well, we maybe we go to two hundred. What’s what’s how did that did that process work internally for you guys?
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:38

    Well, Bill that definitely has more experience with this because he’s done a lot of lists for Vulture like this. But this was my first time, and it was kinda to see it unfold because we would meet I think it was like once a week for a month or two, just like a bunch of us, like a bunch of the people that worked piece and we would basically hash it out, like, what gets to stay. And there was, like, really some, you know, very fun, but painful conversations about what we had to leave off and everything. And and I think I tweeted about this at one point during the course of like working on it. At one point, it’s like one of my favorite things I’ve ever heard, Bilga, compared the, the Yoda and, dooku fight and attack of the clones to when Dylan goes electric.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:16

    And, like, it just that was such a fun, like, thing because it’s, like, We’re all like trying to like make our case for why this fight should stay, why this is influential and everything. And, you know, it it there there it was a very fun process to kinda like just you know, really, really get into why something does matter. And sometimes there would be a fight that’s like, maybe considered one of the best fights of all time, but we couldn’t really pinpoint anything that was influenced by it. So we had to cut it. And that was that was fun too because it kind of really made your brain work like, you know, kinda make make your brain compartmentalize.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:52

    Like, just because I love this doesn’t mean it has to be included. And so that was kind of fun too.
  • Speaker 3
    0:40:58

    Yeah. I mean, because because the the the the the actual title of the list is action, sorry, fight scenes that influenced
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:06

    action, which
  • Speaker 3
    0:41:06

    is like several layers of filtering right there because it’s like, okay, it has to be a fight scene. It can’t be like a battle scene. It has to be a fight scene. Then it’s like, okay. Well, what’s a fight scene?
  • Speaker 3
    0:41:21

    Like, what constitutes a fight scene? Well, like, does a shootout constitute a fight scene? Not really unless there’s, like, some element of close quarters combat, you know, so like the, you know, or like a chase scene. There’s a chase scene down. Well, if they fight during it, it’s it kind of counts, you know, and it’s and it’s like, alright.
  • Speaker 3
    0:41:41

    And then, like, what’s influence? What does influence mean? Does it I mean, does it mean we have specifically pinpoint other movies that this showed up in, or is it sort of a thing where it’s like, well, they did this, and this obviously filtered out into the culture in some way, but then it’s like, well, did it influence action? Right. I mean, there are fight scenes that influenced other things, but didn’t necessarily influence action.
  • Speaker 3
    0:42:02

    So it was, it was, there was a lot of, there was a lot of, okay, did it do this? Does it have this? Did it also do this? Did it also do that? And even then, we found we had so many examples.
  • Speaker 3
    0:42:14

    And then it was kinda like, well, you know, you have to make sure that, like, action comedy is a thing. Right? So you wanna make a because you could just make it just a lot of fight scenes that just like really sort of burrowed out scenes. It’s like, no. No.
  • Speaker 3
    0:42:26

    No. Like comedy is the whole thing. You know, like, we have to make sure we have there’s comedy in there. And, it just it it went on and on, and it it was fun. Actually remember how we came up with it.
  • Speaker 3
    0:42:37

    I mean, I we we’ve talked about doing some kind of list like this, like action oriented stunt oriented list big, you know, blow out historical list like this for, for a couple of years now. I don’t know, I don’t remember the specific thinking that went through. I mean, I you know, it might have happened at higher levels than, you know, than me. But, but it was great. And then, yeah, and at first, we were kinda like, wow.
  • Speaker 3
    0:43:01

    How am I gonna find come up with like a hundred of these and it’s like, oh, you know, maybe maybe it should be twenty five, maybe it should be fifty. And by the end, we were just like, no, no, no, this has to stay. You know? I don’t care we still have hundred twenty five. Like, this has to stay.
  • Speaker 3
    0:43:14

    Yeah, there are so many heartbreaking cuts from that list. My god.
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:18

    My Okay. Alright. I’m gonna ask, I’m a put you on the spot. What’s one cut that you, personally fought for? You were like, we gotta have this in here.
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:25

    It didn’t it didn’t make the list.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:28

    Oh, man. That’s kinda
  • Speaker 3
    0:43:29

    Well, the the the thing is I’m I mean, my my like, I would have to see the list to make sure that the stuff that, like, that I’m thinking about did in fact get cut because there was a lot of often what happens and this is because, you know, we’re all betas. But, you know, very often, the person who makes the greatest greatest ace for a fight scene often winds up being the person who removes it in the end. Like, usually, you’re like, I know I was the one who said we have to have this, but I guess we can cut it, you know. The one the one that this wasn’t one of the last cuts. I mean, this this got cut, like, couple of weeks before we made the final cuts.
  • Speaker 3
    0:44:05

    But the one I kind of wish was still there is there’s a great fight in the big country. William Weiler’s western, between, I believe, Charleston Heston and Greg Repek. And it’s, it’s a It’s like a fight scene that happens in the distance. It’s framed as this really wide shot. So you just see the landscape and it’s like totally empty and just these two little guys just like fighting.
  • Speaker 3
    0:44:33

    So there’s no real, you know, it’s not like a great stunt or anything like that. And And in the end, I thought, well, this probably didn’t influence action, like, because I can’t imagine anybody watching this scene and thinking, oh, yeah, my my, like, kick ass action movie is gonna have a scene like that. But, but it is such a beautiful scene, such a poetic scene in a movie that is kind of underrated and underseen. And and it’s, like, I wanted to make more of a case for it, but in the end, like, I I just couldn’t because it’s kinda like This this probably didn’t actually influence a ton of action action scenes, but it’s an incredible late scene, you know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:12

    Yeah. That that was kind of the thing because what I I don’t know if this is my most heartbreaking, but the there’s the one that really kind of helped me separate what’s, you know, one of my favorites versus what’s actually influential is the blade the blade blood rave. At the beginning of blade. I was thinking like that’s so iconic. Everyone remembers that and everything.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:34

    And I was like, that has to be there. You know, it’s like one of the earlier superhero movies before the boom happened. And as we were talking about over weeks and weeks, we just kept running into like, what what did it influence? And, you know, like, That was hard to cut because it’s like, I I love that movie. I love that scene, but it was just like, yeah, you you ran into the problem of, like, well, what is is there, you know, Is there anything we can like really say about this other than it looks cool?
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:57

    And that, you know, that’s not enough. And Yep. And I’ll just say for myself, the the heartbreaking one for me was, the, I I kinda cheated a little bit, but I I put the, you know, we all had to give our own lists in a doc and then we’d work off of that. And the one I put the trans the final hour of transformers Dark of the moon on there. And, like, immediately when we got to that, like, everyone kind of was just, like, know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:19

    And I was just sitting there like, well, okay. Okay. Right. But but, yeah, that was, again, I’m not hard broke it over it, I get it. But, you know, one one day one day will, you know, people will hear me.
  • Speaker 1
    0:46:32

    The, I well, the the Bayham is its own thing, certainly.
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:36

    Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:46:36

    Yeah. But The blade went is interesting too because I agree. I, like, that is such an iconic sequence. But at the same time, it does feel like comic book movies in particular have like, almost explicitly moved away from from that sort of really bloody violent, largely practical, stuff. I mean, I guess not the body’s disintegrating, but every everything else.
  • Speaker 1
    0:47:00

    You know, to to to what we get to to what we have today, which is very difficult.
  • Speaker 3
    0:47:06

    Yeah. Well, the thing that we did, and this was I think one of the reasons why that scene got cut in the end was at at a certain point, we said, you know what? We have to we have to limit it to one scene per franchise. Like, it can’t we can’t I mean, we had originally, we had multiple, bond scenes on there. And, you know, when it got time to cutting it, like, finally getting it down to a hundred.
  • Speaker 3
    0:47:29

    We were just like, you know what? Let’s just, let’s just say, let’s just have that rule for us, because that will actually make some of the tough choices that were like unable to make. So, and we had the fight from the, you know, the vampire ninja fight from, blade two in there. So we’re like, alright, well, this, this feels like more influential. It’s also a great scene from a better movie.
  • Speaker 3
    0:47:53

    So we’re, like, alright, let’s let’s let’s put that one in. But, you know, that happened with, I mean, there were a number of really influential Bond fights, you know, I mean, I I am a big believer that, you know, even though people like to make fun of the the James Bond series, they have been, an incredible showcase for stunts and have been, have done, like, pioneering work in terms of, like, moving action forward in interesting ways. And, you know, there’s, like, you know, there’s, I mean, there’s a train fight in from Russia with love that is, I think, hugely influential and it’s kind of like a really important moment in action and you know, obviously, it was like the park crew fights later and things like that. But we settled on the, the fight in the skies and moon which is like one of the worst bond movies. Right?
  • Speaker 3
    0:48:38

    But it’s like that scene without that scene. I mean, because that scene when they when they first thought of doing that, everybody was like, what what are you talking about that’s insane? Nobody could do anything like that, and they figured out a way to do it, and they had to, like, modify cameras, and And I have seen variations of that scene, specifically in a number of movies, including, you know, point break and, you know, mission impossible able, and that was like, okay. Nobody did this before before before this movie did it. And after this movie did it, other people have done it more notably in films that are perhaps better regarded, but it’s like, doesn’t happen without Moonraker, you know?
  • Speaker 1
    0:49:16

    Yeah. Yeah. Alright. One last one last question on this front. It was interesting too because, alright.
  • Speaker 1
    0:49:23

    So in the stunt, in the stunt award, you can’t really award animation anything because animation, you know, it’s drawings on computers or on paper or whatever. But there are a number of animated sequences in the, list of action sequences that influenced film. When you’re when you’re thinking about how animation influences live action, or even just other animation, I guess. Like, what what were you what was was there difference in thinking there? I guess is my question here.
  • Speaker 1
    0:49:50

    Where was there any difference in thinking, like, how you judge, how animation influence other animation live action or or what were you thinking?
  • Speaker 2
    0:49:59

    I I think there was some thinking into that. Like, you know, it did, like, you know, how did it influence animation and how also how, you know, where do we see this showing up in action? And I think, you know, the the the best example of that, you know, when you’re looking at animation and action is like, I think there’s a direct through line from, like, you know, Tom and Jerry and the looney tunes to Jackie Chan you know, to now with John Wick and everything, they’re they’re very, you know, looney tunes esque, you know, stunts and everything. So I think that that’s definitely a something that we thought a lot about when when looking at that kind of stuff. And they popeye too, you know, like, you know, those rumbles and everything that he gets into.
  • Speaker 2
    0:50:41

    Yeah. So, it and to to be honest with you, when when we put this list together, you know, we had to come with our own own stuff. I didn’t I don’t think I had any animated stuff on mine because it’s just like I’m one of those people that whatever his name is, you know, Phil Lord, I think it would probably, you know, be mad at because I, you know, like, I think he gave Billgas some grease about, you know, where where are the animated movies, but, like, Yeah. I’m I’m definitely one of those people that is pretty bad about that. You know, I I I like animation and everything.
  • Speaker 2
    0:51:09

    It’s just it doesn’t click in my head all the time that, you know, I need to include this kind of stuff. So that was a fun exercise. Like, we had we had a a couple different people on the, you know, working team and everything who had much more expertise than that who were able to articulate why exactly why the choreography that was drawn here has been, you know, mimicked in real life and everything. So that was nice. It was helpful for me because, you know, I’m I guess I’m an animation snob without meaning to be.
  • Speaker 3
    0:51:37

    So lord. Lardy, lady, lighting. You know what? You know what really heard about that? You know what really heard about I mean, it it was fine.
  • Speaker 3
    0:51:44

    He he was he wasn’t he didn’t give me grief. It was I published my top twenty list on Twitter, and he just posted saying, oh, no animated films and put a little, you know, sad face and A lot of people piled on him, which, like, after a while, I felt bad about because I actually like Lord and Miller’s films. And And the the the thing the thing that frustrated me was like, okay, first of all, I was the guy who would not shut up about the Lego movie back in the day, put it on my top list, wrote multiple pieces about it, you know, like, wrote think pieces about it, think it’s like a hugely influential film. I would one of the two guys who whipped votes behind the scenes at the New York film critic circles to to get into the spider verse, are animation award, which I I I genuinely believe led to its, helped lead to its eventual Oscar when, you know, so I was kinda like, And my thing was, you know what? I’ll I’m gonna judge this this this most recent iteration of Spider Wars, but when I see the full movie because it was half a movie.
  • Speaker 3
    0:52:45

    Yeah. Like, I’m sorry. It was half a movie. You know? Like, I was enjoying it, and then it was over.
  • Speaker 3
    0:52:50

    You know? So I, you know, like, I’m looking forward to seeing the second half and then judging it, you know, like, I I don’t know. I don’t know what to say. If I like it ended halfway through. And, you know, that’s a whole other conversation.
  • Speaker 3
    0:53:04

    Anyway, animation. Yes. You know, no. And this was something, and, you know, we we I mean, a lot of us have written about animation stuff like that, but we also have, you know, you know, We have folks at Vulture who, you know, specialize in animation or, or, who are, like, real experts in it and, and really know the history and stuff like that. So you know, having them on board really helped to tease out because it was kinda like, well, there’s a lot of anime.
  • Speaker 3
    0:53:28

    I mean, you could make a list. You could make a hundred list with all animation if you wanted to. Mhmm. Right? I mean, even stuff like looney tunes, it was kind of like, well, they’re they’re so influential, like, which one do we put in?
  • Speaker 3
    0:53:40

    You know? Right. And, and in fact, I don’t know that we ever found out because we were kinda like, where does the, like, Who did the first fist cloud? You know, like, like, the big, like, cloud with, like, the fist, you know, in the air and so they were like, who did the first one? I don’t think we ever kind of found it.
  • Speaker 3
    0:53:58

    For all I know it might have been more of a, you know, cartoon, like, you know, still cartoon thing, still electronic thing. But, So there was, and then it was kind of like, well, there’s a ton of anime that that you have to incorporate. And it’s kinda like, what was genuinely influential what is worth highlighting in this list. Again, in all these cases, it’s like you could do a whole list of just this particular subgenre, you know. And because we’re doing kind of a big list, we want it to be, you know, we want it to be accurate.
  • Speaker 3
    0:54:31

    We want it to feel, you know, thorough. We want it to feel international. We don’t wanna just be like, oh, you’re a bunch of American movies, you know. But at the same time, like, you go too far in one direction and it feels like you’re just pandering. You know, like, you just wanna make sure that this whole thing reads like a a real thing that, like, you read it, you will learn a lot about the history of film.
  • Speaker 3
    0:54:54

    Yeah. And you won’t feel short changed or you know, or or, like, panned or two or, or spoken over, you know?
  • Speaker 1
    0:55:05

    Yeah. No. I I I will say again, I I’ve, I’ll link to it in the in the email that accompanies this podcast, and folks should check it out. But it it is a it is are really, kind of just amazing journey through the history of action film making, just from, you know, just on a on a from the silence to the early, big spectacles to the, you know, kind of grittier stuff in the in the seventies and eighties, and then, you know, again, animation, big action. I it’s fascinating.
  • Speaker 1
    0:55:39

    I I I strongly recommend people check it out. You’ll see your own through lines as you’re as you’re going through it. You’ll see the influence of Bruce Lee and everybody else. And I don’t fascinating. They couldn’t talk couldn’t talk enough about it, but we are running out of time.
  • Speaker 1
    0:55:52

    Alright. I always like to close by asking if there’s anything I should have asked, if there’s anything you think folks should know about, you know, action filmmaking, the stunt awards, whatever. What what what should people know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:56:05

    I guess just, you know, if you’re listening to this and you’re involved in the action community at all, like, I’d I’d love to have you next year if it gets m most of the work that goes into this is just sending out email after email and, you know, often getting either no reply or who or you replies, but, like, but, like, we did jump. Like, I think like, very close to, like, maybe one, one hundred and seventy five voters from year to year. So so, yeah, like, I just if if you’re listening and you’re involved in the action community in any way, like, this is who we’re doing it for. So, I mean, before you know it, we’ll be working on the next one that we start in the fall. So, I mean, it feels like it just ended and it’s, you know, not that far away from going again.
  • Speaker 2
    0:56:42

    So, yeah, just, yeah, like, I’d love to hear from anybody. You know, like, I’m I I’m on Twitter and, you know, unfortunately, I’m leaving my DMs open for a little bit. So so yeah, if if anyone who, you know, wants to participate, that’s who it’s for, because I I won’t to be as big as it can possibly be.
  • Speaker 3
    0:57:00

    Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s that’s what I would say as well. I mean, we want We want more participants. I mean, it was, you know, we got a really good group this year. We want more because it’s obviously, it’s a huge community in terms of just the people are working in it professionally, but also writers who write about action, there are people who are interested in action and know about it and know about stunts and things like that.
  • Speaker 3
    0:57:23

    Like, you know, like, we we want that kind of expertise and enthusiasm. And the thing that happens, of course, is the kinds of movies that we’re talking about, they’re not December movies. Right? So, like, we wind up doing it at the end of the year, and it’s like, who are like, you know, well, you know, suddenly it’s like everybody’s mind is on Oscar bait and it’s like where where the action movies ends. Oh, right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:57:48

    John Wick, that was this year. You know? Like, like, so, like, you know, movies that come out in January, February, March, like, that that’s our jam, you know. And so it’s so you come at the end of the year and it’s kinda people have to be reminded of it. So it’s always good to just try and sort of keep And we wanna do better about that as well.
  • Speaker 3
    0:58:07

    And, like, trying to just keep a tally of the movies that actually have these action scenes and things like that that you know, maybe it’s not the greatest movie of the year, like maybe it’s not a, you know, top ten list contender for like best films, but but like it has a couple of kick ass scenes, you know, and it’s got Marco Zauru in it, you know. So it’s like, you should, you should keep an eye on this movie, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:58:29

    Yeah. No. The thing I I just from my own perspective, the thing I am trying to keep a better handle on this year is all the direct to videos, not the DTV. You know, VOD stuff because I I found myself at the end of last year looking back through my letterbox and being like, okay. There’s there’s some obvious choices, what’s some less obvious choices?
  • Speaker 1
    0:58:47

    And I had I have fewer less less obvious choices than I might have liked just because I am not as well versed in that as I feel like I should be.
  • Speaker 3
    0:58:55

    Well, I
  • Speaker 2
    0:58:55

    would just say I would caution, like, I I, you know, not to go too into the cause I know we’re wrapping up here. But for, like, ten years, I kinda was, like, so sick of, like, Hollywood action to the point where I was, like, only DTV, and it took me forever to actually get around to the John Wick commission on possible movies like the recent ones. And I just will caution people that if you’re gonna dive into DTV, there’s of garbage. So just like you don’t have to watch everything. Like, I mean, it it does have the stigma for a reason.
  • Speaker 2
    0:59:21

    I try to say like it’s a worthwhile endeavor, but there are there’s a lot of stuff that’s like man, like, I’ll get halfway through something and just pick man. Why did I put this on? But, like, even Scott Atkins who I love, like, he he’s always worth watching because so charismatic, but at the same time, he’s in a lot of art and choice. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:59:39

    Yeah. It, that that is certainly true. Right? And it is there is something frustrating about taking taking a shot, being like, oh, this looks kinda interesting.
  • Speaker 2
    0:59:47

    And then, I
  • Speaker 1
    0:59:47

    don’t know. This turns out not, interesting.
  • Speaker 3
    0:59:52

    Looks France. How pa how bad could possibly be? You know, I was like, oh, it could be pretty bad.
  • Speaker 1
    0:59:57

    Yeah. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:59:58

    No. I the the
  • Speaker 1
    0:59:59

    role of Netflix in this universe is fascinating. And, for a con discussion for another time, because, again, we’re we’re running along here. But I I am I I really feel like there is a they they that is a space they could be growing in and playing more, than they are, but, well, there’s there’s Irish wish to make. Alright. Alright.
  • Speaker 1
    1:00:19

    Brandon, Billy, Billy, Billy, thank you for, again, for being on the show. I really appreciate it. It’s always it’s always a pleasure to have you guys on and talk. Stuntz in action.
  • Speaker 3
    1:00:27

    Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks, man. This was great. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    1:00:30

    Alright. Again, my name is Sunny Bunch. I’m culture editor at the Bulwark and we will we will be back next week with another episode of the Bulwark Coast of Hollywood. We’ll see you guys