Symone Sanders-Townsend: Let Joe Run

Hello, and welcome to the board podcast. I’m Tim Miller in for Charlie Sykes, who’s still on vacation. We have a great guest today. But first, a few quick plugs if you missed yesterday’s episode with Derek Thompson of The Atlantic and the plain English podcast. So good.

Couldn’t have enjoyed it more. Make time for that over the weekend. You might have also caught last night on Twitter, King Lear. I mean, Elon Musk was mass banning journalists. Who shared public info about his private jet travels.

Any of you who follow college football coaching news know this is a quite common practice, but that led to an Elon meltdown and I think more signs that the Twitter dumpster fire might be imploding on itself. So I just wanted to make sure you guys know other places to find us We have an increasingly awesome community on Reddit. The Bulwark sub Reddit. I joined post last night at Tim Miller. I know some of the other Bulwark folks are doing that too.

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Place to engage in Twitter. So give somebody a bulwark present for Christmas, eight dollars a month or join yourself. Lastly, our Seattle event, January twenty first on Saturday, get your tickets at the bulwark dot com slash no b s. Okay. We have an amazing guest today, Simone Sanders Townsend.

She’s had a crazy career. She’s a spokesperson for Bernie Sanders in twenty sixteen, for Joe Biden’s campaign in twenty twenty, and then for vice president Harris in the White House. Now she has a show on MSNBC, Simone, four o’clock on Saturdays and Sundays, and on peacock, on Demand, Monday, and Tuesday. This gonna be so fun. But first, a brief interlude.

It’s Friday. From our girl Beyonce. You

won’t break my song. You won’t break my song. You won’t

What is up? Was that your record of the year?

Okay. It was, and I was definitely in hair dancing in my kitchen. And now I want to sign up for Borr plus because I want the secret podcast. The secret podcast. This was good.

I was like, oh, what is the secret podcast?

I give my unadulterated opinions everywhere, as you know, Simone, because I just I’m an open book these days. And, like, I’ve been around too long to not, but you know, there are other folks at the bulwark who who like to let their free flag fly a little brighter on the secret podcast. You know, that they don’t it’s not for everybody. It’s just for family. Their real opinions are for family.

So you can come hang in with

us. I’m just

so happy you’re doing this with me. Thank you for coming or for a weekend podcast. We’ve got a ton of stuff to go over, but I wanna do a little pallet cleanser here before you to the news. I don’t know if you saw this, but Donald Trump teased that he was making a big big announcement. I assume most of you have seen it by now, but I think it’s worth just listening to it from the horse’s mouth.

So let let’s hear Donald Trump’s big, big announcement. That came out yesterday.

Hello, everyone. This is Donald Trump. Hopefully, you’re favorite president of all time better than Lincoln, better than Washington. With an important announcement to make, I’m doing my first official Donald j Trump NFT collection right here and right now. They’re called Trump did

you including millions?

These cards feature some of the really incredible artwork pertaining to my life and my career. It’s been very exciting. You can collect your Trump digital cards just like a baseball card or other collectibles. Here’s one of the desk parks. Each

car comes with an

automatic chance to win amazing prizes like dinner with me. I

dinner with me. There’s surprise. Actually, it’s what we have. We’ve heard enough of that. Alright.

What do you think? Big announcement?

Okay. Better than Lincoln. First of all, first of all, I saw this on my Twitter feed yesterday, and but I did not know that this man, a former president of the United States of America, recorded an interview.

Video. Yep.

Oh, wow.

Man. I don’t know. Was that was that your affecting from his big announcement?

No. But it’s basically giving all of his last grips of the last ten, fifteen years. So

Trump stakes. Trump the game you know, Trump airplanes. You’re a Trump airplane

Yeah.

Trump you. Yeah. You know, once a grifter, always a grifter, I guess, my main observation with for this was and we’ve beaten all this to death, but it’s like, how can you have voted from that person to be the president twice? And not just wanna crawl into a hole and die of embarrassment. I that is that is I do think the great mystery for me.

You know, among the the self important class. I’m not talking about his superfans, but, you know, among the John Cornyns of the world, how does he not just wanna dive.

And not even the super fans, but even just like regular people who believe that Donald Trump was a very good businessman, and he knew what he was doing, who believed you know, folks who believed the blatant lies that he sold them. I would venture to say that those people one probably have not heard his, you know, pitch that he’s better than Lincoln and, like, get his f t. Also, what isn’t NFT? I’m still struggling to understand why we’re paying for these things and where they live.

We fielded that one yesterday on the Derek Thompson talk So you can tune out

the audio podcast. He’s he’s

an expert on all this stuff. It’s a short short version of TLDR. It’s another scam.

Okay. It’s it’s all I need to know. I need enough to be conversational. But the real regular people, they still believe that Donald Trump is, like, very good at what he does very knowledgeable that he was a good president and I’m talking about not the not the Q and ON superfans with folks that are like, Yeah. I’d love for him again.

It literally blows my mind. I had the most craziest conversations about it over Thanksgiving with my husband’s family and Richmond. It’s insale. Like,

the Townsends have some Trump voters?

The Sanders folks have some Trump voters as well. Oh, my god. I didn’t know that. Yeah. Yeah.

Some people in my very immediate family and, you know, for folks that don’t know, haven’t seen me. I’m I’m a ball black woman from North America. So, yeah, I know some. Working class black folks who voted for Donald Trump not once the twice.

I’m throwing away the show notes right now because this was on my map for later show. But I just I just wanna dig in right right here. You then have some insight into, I think, a ongoing question about the Republican Party’s kind of strategy going forward. And that is, you know, if you talk to the smart Republican strategist, who who, you know, rejected the path that me and my, you know, rhino moderate squishies proposed back in twenty twelve is, you know, that the party maybe moderate a little bit on on gay issues and on immigration and appeal to people in the suburbs and appeal to women and and, you know, don’t be so virulent in your opposition to abortion and, you know, maybe, I don’t know, believe in some basics elements of science. Right?

That that was our proposal they rejected that, and they claim that this rejection is to pursue a different strategy, which is to put together a multiracial work in class coalition of working class voters that that might be attracted to, you know, the more populous version of the GOP. We’ve seen a little bit of success in that regard with Hispanic voters, particularly along the border and in Florida, not so much really in, like, other parts of the country. And and we haven’t really seen a ton of success of that of that with Black voters. Maybe on the margins, he did slightly better than Mitt Romney, who was like a, you know, car elevator, vanilla. That is not a feeling as possible to working class black voters, I would think, just from a brand standpoint.

Mhmm. Do you sense that they are are succeeding at that at all? Do you are you concerned that working class black men in particular might start to trend Republican? Is there something you think they could do better or worse? How do you assess that.

So

I think that there are a couple of things going on. Right? Like, first of all, I think this idea that the current strategist of the Republican Party apparatus had that that they can really make good inroads with black and Latino voters to your point particularly black and Latino men. And maybe if we run more candidates of color, that will happen. And I think what we saw in this last midterm election, frankly, is that you cannot just put a candidate color on the ballot and believe that black people are going to vote for them or Latino folks are going to vote for them.

It doesn’t work like that. Representation is important, yes, that people are looking for. Substantive representation. And I do not think that, you know, some of our current friends were in charge over there and they were probably after I had attended. They understand that part.

I do though think that it would be very just incorrect and stupid to believe that black working class voters are going to just continue to vote for the Democratic Party. And case in point, my own family members who have voted for Donald Trump in the past, which I do think was specific to Donald Trump. So in twenty sixteen, Again, he was a businessman. It was a lot of anti secretary Clinton language happening. And I’m just like, oh my god.

I can’t I literally go home and I’m like, what is happening here? But it’s very important. It’s like I talk to real people. And in talking to real people, that’s when I was like, honey, it might not be working out well. For the secretary come election day.

And case in point, that’s what happened. In twenty twenty, it was more so of people were very just down on the COVID piece of it. They did not blame Trump as much as maybe the rest of us did. I do think that the president Donald Trump had a lot to do with our state of play when it came to COVID nineteen, his inaction. The people did not connect that to president Trump.

And many of them still said he’s a good businessman. And we’re like, do you not see that the people are like, he’s broke? And they’re like, no. He’s a good businessman. He knows what he’s doing.

It’s the people that work for him or doctor Fauci that we can’t believe. And it it you think that these are things that are discarded in the angels of the Internet. Yes. Sure. But these are real things that folks were saying in communities, and I think we have to listen to real people.

I think that the way the Republican Party apparatus actually makes inroads with voters of color is to I don’t even wanna call it moderate, but be where the people are. To be very clear, I always like to say, there are gay Republicans in America. So the idea that the Republican party apparatus has turned into anti LGBTQ hate mongering. Like, let’s put it in legislation to keep the community down is insane to me. The idea that, you know, women, hello, have been white women have been keeping the Republican party afloat for Eons.

One could argue taking a lock them up approach their bodily autonomy is not going to bode well for their development. But

I I love having you honest guess is so I had just a Friday guess because I’m gonna, like, put a quarter in the machine and just kinda let you roll. You know, I can sit back during my coffee up. Okay. One more question on the workouts folks, and then I wanna take a step back a little bit. And talk about your trajectory.

Is your sense that the potential opportunity among working class voters of color more on the culture side of things that they don’t kind of like some of the elite, if you will, or do you think it’s uneconomic If if you’re Republicans on economics like getting more populist on economics or do you think it’s more like fighting these culture wars on COVID and on Wokeness and blah blah blah. I think it

is on the things that people have to deal with in their everyday lives. Right? And so — Yeah. — that we call it the economy, people call it what? Kitchen table issues.

But if you are a working class black family and work on Nebraska, right, where I’m from, maybe abortion is a kitchen table issue for you. Right? Whether you are a man or a woman. In my opinion, the culture wars have never been a distraction. They’ve always just been the playbook for the Republican party apparatus.

And in recent years, they just went full blown like, this is all we’re doing. We ain’t got no plans for the economy, honey. We’re just out here. Just hating people. And it hasn’t worked in the last couple of cycles.

Like, please get a plan. People often talk as we talk about, like, my trajectory and whatnot. When I made my switch, right, from call it a switch. I mean, I literally decided to go work for someone else. Folks were like, how could you?

You’re never progressive. Blah blah blah. And I’m like, look, I like thinking myself as a pragmatic progressive. Like, mini black woman in America. And this idea that I think some people have incorrectly that black communities, black men especially vocino communities are more conservative.

They don’t agree with the idea of abortion or pronouns or, like, pick pick your issue. I think that that is that is intact. I really do it. I think the people are planning with a broad stroke brush. I think if folks really want to honestly appeal to and by folks I’m talking about, my Republican friends, to voters of color, they have to come to the community with actual plans, not live service.

And there has to get an environment that is created that makes people feel as though that this is the place for me that I could be. And the problem with the current Republican Party at Bharat is is that it feels very anti. It feels very anti black people. It feels very anti, you know, people of color. Very anti LGBTQ plus, very anti women.

Very anti anybody’s not a straight white

male.

This rich. And

this is what I think the huge mistake. Just just as a prime example was this paid leave thing in the fight with the rail workers. Yeah. And

it’s

like, you know, at least say what you want about Josh Hollie. And I’ve said a lot of horrible things about the — Yeah. — that his, like, little limp fasted interaction as, you know, scamper. Alright. So I don’t love Josh Holly, but but at least he is offering something.

To these owners. Right? So he supported that. Right? Like, we need to give these workers paid leave.

If we’re gonna be a multi racial working class party, you know, we need to maybe put aside a few of these, like, you know, free market fundamentalist orthodoxies. Right? And actually help workers, and that’s a reasonable thing. That families deserve to have leave if they’re sick or if they need to take care of a loved one, etcetera. But the rest of the party is still wrapped up in, like, the old Paul Ryanism on economics, you know, which is attractive to some of the suburban voters that they’ve lost probably.

You know, some of the suburban former Republican voters. But but these working class voters, you can’t come to them with just pronouns. Right? And then and then say, oh, you just want seven days of leave while I take eighty days of leave in Congress, and I’m not gonna let you have that. Yeah.

Like, I don’t think that sale is gonna work. And I that’s why I think this whole strategy for the Republicans fundamentally flawed. You

know what? I think Democrats did well in the midterm elections that just happened. Because they went out there and they were in communities talking about things that people are directly dealing with every single day, but also not seeding the overarching democracy argument. And if you went to any town halls that Republican elected officials are republican candidates were doing or you saw interviews that they were doing on television. They’re attacking Wokeness.

Right. They’re attempt like, It is things that where’s your plan for the economy? Where’s your plan for how I am going to put more money in my pocket to help me put more food on the table to feed my family? Where is your plan for that? And that lacked.

And I think you saw a democracy well in places where they talked about the things that are affecting real people’s lives. And by the way, one of those things was the overturning of Roe v Wade be at the Dodge’s decision when bringing the politicians into the doctor’s office. Nobody wants that. I want anybody in the OBGYM. He said, the lady doesn’t want to bang.

Oh, alright. We got down this after I said, once I found out there were some Sanders as a vote for Donald Trump. I just I just Oh,

yeah. There are there are Donald Trump people at the family reunion, honey. Yeah. Yeah. I do get at

your guy. Can I be invited next year maybe? I think know,

we need to we need to check our credentials if we’re gonna let you into the cookout as the streets like to say.

Alright. Well, I’m I’m interested. I’m interested in okay. So let’s just zoom it back. Some of the listeners might not know your whole background.

And so I just I think this is interesting. It’s telling as what perspective you bring to this. So in It’s a sixteen. He worked for Sandra Sanders in his primary again as a spokeswoman, national spokeswoman against Hillary Clinton. Extremely young in that job, I might say.

We did a panel together, and I thought I was young for a national presidential spokesperson, and then you told me how old you were. And I was like, fuck. Yeah.

So you gotta be kidding

me. I was like, I thought I was on the fast track over here, so you were showing me up. And then in twenty twenty, made a bit of stir when you went to become spokesperson for then president Biden. And then and the White House went on and did some work for vice president, Harris, I wanna get to all of that eventually before coming to MSNBC. But I wanna just go back to that jump from Sanders to Biden because you had some insight that I didn’t realize in making that jump.

When I first saw it, I was like, oh, man. Like, hey, kind of what is someone doing? Like, I don’t is Biden? Does Biden even have it. And b, obviously, there’s gonna be this huge backlash and burning world, and and it’s gonna seem like it’s a very careerist thing.

And and I think with the benefit of hindsight, I don’t feel that way anymore. So just talk us through why you made that decision at the time to get on early with Joe Biden when there was a lot of doubts about him.

Know so many downs. It seems like so long ago now. It does.

So when I was

to go work for senator Sanders in twenty sixteen, the reason I said I wanted to work for him after I had a it wasn’t a job I applied for, but we I ended up in a meeting, like, an interview with Bernie Sanders. And we got an argument It was very hilarious at the end. I was like, oh my god. He’s not gonna hire me. But we reconciled our argument.

What was the

argument over? It was about the

economy, and it was about the way that he was talking about it. And devoid of race. And you cannot have an economic argument that does not include race in my opinion because these things are not happening in a vacuum. Right? The chasm between the wealthiest people in this country and the poorest people in this country is the largest it’s ever been.

If you look further at race, the chasm between white people and black people is like the Grand King. So we have to account race. And so we we kinda got into a little back and forth. He told me I had a fundamental misunderstanding. I said, understand this, like, to say.

Point to central quote. But we reconciled at the end. And throughout our the the totality of the conversation we had, the things that senator’s hand is the same. Were the things that were popping up in the conversations I was having with the people that I knew, like my friends, like my the regular people in America. Now people are like, you’re not a regular person.

Well, I was in twenty fifteen. And that is why I wanted to go work for him. In twenty twenty, I had the opportunity to talk to just about every single candidate democrat who was talking about right for president met with all of them, many of them asked me to work for them, almost just about all of them. And the reason I went to work for — Right.

— yes, slight

black. Yeah. Nice black.

I I I only turned down Scott Walker in twenty sixteen, so that is an anti flex for me. FYI. Okay. Sorry. Can you Well, you know,

I mean, Scott Walker was then what the Santa says now and look how that turned out. So I

sniffed that one out quick. Yeah. Okay. So we’re just

I’m not gonna ask you to list I’m

not gonna ask you to list who you turned down, but okay. Continue. But when

I sat with then at the time vice president by former vice president Biden. He said to me, I asked him why he wants to run for president. And he said to me in that meeting, what he would go on to say on the campaign trail, And what I have mentioned to say, he will tell people what has motivated him to run for reelection if and when he does announce. And he was like, I really believe that we’re in a battle for the soul of America. And he went down this long path.

I’m not just talking about a Charlotte’s bill, but all of these things that have happened. He said there’s a lot of struggles going on. He talked about the economic struggle. He talked about restoring our standing on the world stage. And Donald Trump has, like, just utterly embarrassed Can I curse the iPhone cursor?

Because he Please. Fuck it.

No. Curtis. Yeah. He’s the elderly

embarrassed to fuck out of us on the international stage and somebody gotta fix that shit. Essentially. But the soul of America peace, I’m like, yes, this is what people feel. People were feeling that the soul of who we are as America. Like, we we talk about the history and how we overcome all these things.

It was crumbling. People were living in fear. You know, you had just had neo Nazis marching on the streets of Charlottesville, Virginia. White Supremacist, a woman die. Like, it was real and people were feeling that.

And so I thought his argument was persuasive, but I thought it was one that could connect to real people across America. I I really felt like that’s what people were feeling. And Jovine is someone that communities across this country knew instantly. Differently from senator Sanders. In twenty sixteen, Senator Sanders did not have a support base, if you will, in African American Latino communities.

He wasn’t a household name. One should argue between the twenty sixteen run and the twenty twenty run, the work that he had been doing, he should have been able to gain more traction, particularly in black and Latino communities. The numbers do not support that. And the decision that I made to go work for Joe Biden was about his argument was I felt how I felt in twenty sixteen, but also I knew that he had the people. Joe Biden is somebody that communities knew and that they they would consider voting for him.

I

always had a soft spot for vice president, but I I didn’t see that. And I think part of that is because, you know, you you know those communities intimately, you know. And and one thing that was just two hours ratio to that. Number one, that was what you just said. And people might say, that’s oh, that’s BS.

You don’t pick who you’re developed for because they give a good answer to the question of why they wanna be president. No. That’s true. That was the act reason why I picked Jeff. That is

the exact reason why I picked Jeff over Scott Walker. I

was like, Scott Walker could not couldn’t explain like, sounded like he was given speech at UW, like La Crosse, College Republican Club. Oh, like, when I asked him why I wanted to be president. I was, like, you don’t have any deeper thoughts than, like, the basic chicken dinner, like, tushy boy. It’s, like, what? I was just shocked.

Because when it gets rust when it gets rust, the person that really wants to be president, the person that had that good answer when you initially spoke to them, when nothing was really on the line, except an idea, they’re going to be willing to do the work that I’ve designed. Yeah. And even if it

doesn’t go work out like as well, like it did for me as opposed to you, I at least you’ll go down with some dignity. Right? Like, you don’t you don’t go down just, like, grasping at every news cycle. Anyway, I thought that was a great insight though. You picked Biden.

Here’s the other thing that that I found this is just anecdotally. But so I after trying when I moved to Oakland, and I took on this little yoga studio. It was, like, mostly kind of working class black women that go there and, you know, they they let us us gentrifyers come in from time to time. And so I I went to a couple of class there. I started asking, the women, like, who are they gonna vote for coming up in the in the primary?

And a couple of them, including once became a good friend. You know, said, well, you know, I liked Sanders last time, and I like Sanders Sanders, but I I I think I’m gonna go with Biden. Mhmm. I was like, wait, you’re deciding between Sanders and

Biden. And,

you know, in our DC Beltway mindset, it’s like, oh, no. They’re in two different lanes. And they’re on opposite sides. And, you know, people are deciding between Elizabeth Warren and Sanders and Biden and Amy. And it’s like, no.

That was that was not how you know, regular rank and file Democrats. And and I think, obviously, based on how in South Carolina particularly black Democrats, it was not how they saw the field. Right? Like, they knew Biden and trusted him and didn’t know some of these other interlopers and had mixed feelings on Sanders Sanders. And went with the guy that they trusted in the end.

And I and I do think that you just kind of had an insight into that that a lot of, like, smart smarts in DC didn’t.

I think it showed up in so many different ways on the campaign trial. I very vividly remember the segregationist gate. For lack of a better term, where some files were uncovered that apparently, you know, there was a segregationist member of congress that then while now president Biden, when he was a

I’d like to work with

him. Yeah. He liked to work with him. And, you know, there was this whole new cycle about segregationist and all the people were asking. Senator Cory Booker and Torres, he was like, he needs, I apologize.

I was like, it was a whole thing. And I’m out there, like, Joe Biden is not a segregation nation. He is not like yes. These are things I had to say, because I was like, he’s not. But I was telling reporters, I told them off the record or the record on background.

I’m like, ask people in the States. I was like, ask people in South Carolina. They do not care about It is not registering to them. And I kid you not the segregationist thing was like a Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, we were in South Carolina at Clyburn’s Fish Frog. With the people.

Okay? The candidates are walking around, talking to folks. They’re taking selfies. Didn’t come up once. Did not come up.

People had a lot of things to say, no one mentioned the thing about segregationists. The entire crowd was full of working class black folks. Okay? So it is just this idea of we as a media apparatus say something is important and it’s resonating and like this is the issue, this is concerning. But if you ask the people, it doesn’t necessarily match up.

And I think that the lesson that I take from all of my, you know, campaign of political experience that I’m trying to apply. When I do now is like a member of the media apparatus, is to ensure that I am not getting caught up on what we what we think is true. Want to ask people what their reality is. And that is, I think, the biggest lesson we should all take, like, what is the people’s reality? How

do you think fast forward to now, twenty almost twenty twenty three, you know, folks rank and file, kind of Democrats, working class in particular Democrats are feeling about, like, the first three years of the Biden administration. Obviously, there’s some inflation concerns, but — Mhmm. — he’s got a lot done. It’s, like, where would you put you know, infrastructure, the most recent,

not really

reducing inflation and inflation reduction act. You know, the gun bill you know, all the stuff that he’s done because he’s been extremely, frankly, productive over two years, unbelievably productive. How is that landing? Do you think? Is that stuff that the DC bubble cares about?

And they they haven’t done a good job of of making sure people get it? Or are people really starting to kind of appreciate the progress that we’ve seen. What’s your sense?

I think that people are starting to appreciate of progress, but only when it is laid out specifically. And I say that to say, like, we like to name the bills. I’m like, look at all the things he got there. What does that mean for people’s, like, everyday lives? Like, the Inflation and Reduction Act is important partly because it lowers the cost of prescription drugs.

Right. Like, you go out to you go and talk to me. Like, ask my raise your hand if you had to go and fill a prescription this month. Okay? Raise your hand if you thought that prescription was too high.

It costs too much. The administration, I would argue, has been going out there and doing those things. We talk a lot about the chips act that was passed. The president has been going out. He did an event in Phoenix last week, on the ground, in the community about what this means, about the jobs that are being created talking about the practical implications of it.

Nobody covered it on television. Like, they just they know that they they mentioned that president bi wasn’t Phoenix. Nobody took his remarks. This

a Mon Show covered it. We did. We

did cover it. But the local papers wrote about. The local reporters, they put it on their nightly newscasts. And the folks in that community they they heard it. And it is they are feeling the impacts until every single time the president or the vice president or cabinet secretary or a member of Congress, like, goes into their, you know, communities or communities across the country and talks about the practical implications of what they have passed and what it is doing it makes a difference for how people feel about this president.

I think for a long time, and and and still a little bit now. Right? Like, gas prices are down, but the grocery store prices are still up. K? My edge is causing a little more, and I can’t tell you, I gotta fight the ladies at the Safeway on a regular basis to get the dead chicken.

But that’s what people are feeling. That they are feeling that. But because the gas has gone down, they’re like, okay. But you have to tell people. And I really do think that the all of these, like, sample polls and these surveys that are, like, oh, forty percent of Democrats don’t want nobody to run for reelection.

Yeah. If you ask somebody, like, do you think so and so should run for reelection? Okay. It’s very different than if so and so runs for election, will you support them? And I think the the second question is is probably more important than the first because for all practical purposes, the man is running.

Like he has said, he intends to, like, there I I Okay. Well, let’s

just go there. You went there. Let’s go there. What do you think? I mean, you’re you got to spend time with him.

You got to spend time with Jill in a way that I didn’t and our listeners didn’t. Like, You feel like he’s up for this? Yeah. I mean, I

saw him. I was at the White House last week. Yeah. I really do. Yeah.

I saw the president and the first lady last week. We had a conversation. Like, I was at one of the holiday parties. And, you know, I was at one of the parties where we got to have good chit chats. And I do feel like he is up to it.

And look, as someone who worked in the last cycle for him, but also interviewed with all of these other people that also wanted to be the Democratic nominee. I have to say that, like, I think he has the most compelling argument out of all of them. Like, what’s everybody else’s argument? He’s old. Okay.

But he beat Donald Trump last Sunday. He’d be out literally nineteen other Democrats, young, promising the futures of the party who who also wanted to be the democratic nominee, and therefore, president he got America vaccinated, passed all of these bills, like the child tax credit that people had the extra money, in their pockets for almost a year, like, dividing did that. The gas fire, like, the all the things. And so what is the argument that, like, he should not If there is anyone who is entitled to run for a second term, it’s Joe Biden. And so let them may run.

Well, I

don’t disagree with that. So let but let me make then the count argument granting all the things you said. The count argument is twofold for me. One is five years from now. Would be the end of his term.

You know, dude is gonna be like eighty six. That is old. Okay? That’s just old. And I love my elders.

Alright? Nothing against them, but eighty six is old. Okay? And and so that’s one part of the argument. The other part is I worry a little bit, and this is what what I care more about your opinion on.

You know, Biden benefited a bit from the COVID during twenty twenty. Let’s just be honest. Right? He think he’s done a great job. He’s got a ton of energy and not out there going.

He’s got secret dementia or whatever. Like, all that is bullshit and all the people, you know, spreading that nonsense. Deserve reparation. But, you know, he still is a step slower. I think even, you know, Biden’s pals would recognize that.

And he didn’t have to do the Hey, Toledo. Hey, Ann Arbor. You know? Hey, Phoenix. Hey, Atlanta.

I fly in all over the country. That puts wear and tear on a person. You know that. You’ve been through that. Is he, like, up for that?

In twenty twenty four, like, that level of campaigning? Well,

I think the president is the only person that can answer that question, and I think we’ll get our answers sooner than later on if he decides to run for reelection. But that

doesn’t worry you a little bit. I guess is what I’m saying. I think in knowing

the president, I know him to be someone that is not going to sign up to do something that he himself was not for. Right? Or that he doesn’t think he can deliver on. If he says it, there’s gonna be things that he can get it done. And if he says he’s gonna do it, like, he’s literally gonna do it.

He’s somebody that is very clear about, like, keeping his promises on, like, the grandest of things, but also, like, some really small things. It’s like, oh, sir. And you remember you said that. And it’s like, no, but I’m gonna do this for you. I’m like, you got it.

Got it. Thank you. The people appreciate you. So I think that is a part of the, you know, decision that he is laying. But to be very clear.

The presidency is a very hard job. Like, you and I know, Tim, but, like, this man is the current president of the United States of America. And — That’s true. — he has a very difficult job right now, and so peppering in a little campaigning on top of the crazy schedule that he already has I don’t think is so crazily out at the question that it can’t be done. But how he shows up on the campaign trail?

Matters. And frankly, I think who the Republicans end up nominating also matters. Because if they nominate a crazy for, like, a better term, someone who is a literal extremist, I do think that there are a number of voters that are going to say, like, okay, the president, you know, maybe a little older, but I’m I’m going with him over x y and z. Yeah. And I just

wanna be clear. I’m just kinda pressing on, like, some I wanna explore the the downsides because I’m torn on it. I think it’s the question people

have. I think people honestly have I and I think I know. That they honestly have these questions. People are saying regular people and people in the professional political class are saying the exact same things that you’re saying. They’re just not willing to say them out loud.

There are people that are set up saying, but he’s older. He seems like he’s lost it a little bit. I’ve been in conversation with the man. He is fully there, prepped, and ready to go. Sure he’s a little older, but look at all the things he got done.

And if the only reason folks are saying he should not run for president is because he’s a little older. Well, is that not the most aegis thing. We have like, is that is that what we got? We got aegis on

this.

Is what is what it is? I

mean, sometimes it might be true though. I mean, all I’m saying is, I’m torn about it. I genuinely try the nice thing about being a man without a party is that I can just say whatever the fuck I think. You know? And so and I just I’m genuinely torn about it.

And I I agree with you. I think a lot of people about behind the scenes are because I think on the one hand, we owe him. I mean, he saved us Thank God. It was Joe Biden. I’m not sure that any some of these other candidates could have beaten Donald Trump last time.

It was really close. His message, you know, the reason you signed up was the right one. He’s performed as well as you could possibly imagine performing in my opinion. I mean, I I have some disagreements. I I think that Afghanistan was kind of a botch and I I don’t didn’t love student loan thing, but I think that that played well politically.

And so I think that he’s done about as well as you could have asked him to do. And so, yeah, hear that argument. And I hear and I hear worries that an open primary might be a nightmare in its own way. Right? On the Democratic side.

And so I see both sides that and I I think it’s a tough call. I I wanna just go really quick to Trump, to Sanders, and then combo, and I’ll let you go. There are some people, particularly my former friends, who are out there saying on Twitter and on their shows, that the democrats actually they want Trump. Like, they don’t even believe their own rhetoric about how he’s a threat to them. Per se.

I mean, they they wish you would win because I think you’d be easier to beat with the than the scientists. What do you say to that? Is that is that something you feel? Are you are you secretly wishing for Trump? Because you think he’s easy?

Or are you scared of him? I am very publicly wishing that

Donald Trump is held accountable and that he ends up in jail because there are other people that if they would have done a fraction of what Donald Trump has done just on the documents of Mar a Lago alone, they will be behind bars as we speak. Literally, any other person would have been prosecuted by now. It’s my own two cents. I

do

think that there are a number of democrats some of my Democratic friends out there wishing for Donald Trump, not because they don’t believe the rhetoric. They do believe he’s a threat to democracy. But they also think he’s very beatable. Yeah. I personally believe this.

Ron DeSantis is an untested character outside of Florida. And the brand that Ron DeSantis has created for himself, a brand that is literally the personification of all the anti that we discussed at the beginning of our conversation today. That has been widely, not wholly, but widely rejected in spaces and places across America from the suburbs of the cities and in some parts of rural America. So the idea that the man that is a personification of all the things that literally blunted the red wave. I don’t understand how he is the second coming of Republicans.

Winning the presidency, clawing it back from the hands of democrats. It just doesn’t make sense to me. And I think that people are just caught up in the hype, and they really need to talk to some real people. Ronda Santos is untested. And when he gets onto these bright lights, I actually don’t think that he’ll hold up.

Yeah. I think if

you look to the midterms and you’re like, man, people of Arizona and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and Michigan are clambering for Ron DeSantis and his don’t say gay, anti facts, nonsense. I don’t think you’re paying attention. So what happened in the midterms? Yeah. They’re not voting for Rod

DeSantis. I’m sure he can win a Republican primary. I am very doubtful that he can get to two seventy. Yeah. I

think it’s possible. I mean, we’re a divided country. Right? So it’s possible. I just I look at the states you know, maybe he could do slightly better in Trump in Georgia.

But I think he could do worse than Trump in other places, like in the Midwest with the types of people you’re talking about, working class, voters color, even working class whites. I they might look at him and see that he’s think he’s a phony. He’s an ivy league, whiny, nasal voice, phony, and, like, not I look at what happens.

Given corny. Drop him down in the middle of Michigan and, like, make him talk to people about the real things that they are dealing with every day. Like, put him in a neighborhood of grand rapids and see if people believe what he says. And that’s what I mean by being untested. Like, drop him off in Western Michigan, and see how the folks responding to him.

I just I don’t see him. Giving mail

to her Dixon. It’s giving

mail to her I just I just she lost

by ten

points. Part

of the this whole Biden discussion, I think, about why people are kind of unsure, why I I’ll just be honest with what part of why I’m unsure about what the right thing to do is. Politically speaking. Obviously, I think he should do what he thinks is right for himself. He’s earned that. But politically speaking, what the right move is is, like, is concerns about Vice President’s political standing.

You worked for her. Why are the vibes circling her so

cloudy. What’s what I

word? I you know, just I don’t I kind of don’t get, like, on paper, it seems like it should work. Right? I I went to see her Oakland announcement, when she announced her president, Like, there was a very diverse big crowd there. And this feature is a little flat, and it’s like, then she runs.

And I thought that, to be honest, you saw this better than me. You saw you saw that the people were gonna want Biden. Thought people were gonna want to come. I thought she was gonna win that primary. She didn’t even make it to Iowa.

You know, then she gets picked, and she did pretty good. I thought as vice presidential candidate, And then since she’s been in there, the vibes are off. Like, what is your read on what’s happening with that? So, I guess, I would

say I would say three things. First, I think historic nature of who vice president Harris is and the expectations people have about that history. Have run into the realities of the vice presidency. Yeah. Two things have been true at the same time.

She is historic. She is the first. She is dynamic. Like, I applied things I I learned while working for her every single day in my life right now. Like on presentation, you mean or on what?

Not even just on presentation,

but in how she how she moves in a meeting, how she asks questions and and brings people in. The vice president is very exact She is specific. There’s depths to every single thing that she does. She never just does something to do it. Like, she’s meticulous.

She has a lawyer. And it’s it yeah. I think it has worked out well for her. All of those things are true. But as a vice president, you are the number two.

Name on the door. You’re not the number one name on the door. And so I think people wanna know every single thing that she does every single day. And how she got this win? And and as a nation’s vice presidency, That is not what you do.

She is a a governing partner for the president, but understands that the buck stops with the president. At the end of the day, it is his decision. At the end of the day, It’s not about what credit she gets. It’s about what is best for the American people, this administration, and the president. And this vice president, feels that visibly and understands that very well.

The second thing I would say is, I don’t think people are actually paying attention to the work that she’s doing. They’re just talking about what they think they know to be true. Because when people were on her, you know, priceless. If you just look at the her team does a recap video every week about the things that she has been doing, she’s traveling out there in communities. To be very clear, the reason, the the White House used this bully toolkit to to continue to elevate the issue of abortion and a woman’s right to make decision about their own bodies and cheap among them doing that work was a vice president in the United States of America.

She used her time as she was traveling all across the country, talked about all these other things that the administration was doing to meet with activists on the ground. State elected officials, let state legislative leaders about what, you know, what this means, what are the practical implications. And the people who walked out of these meetings with vice president Harris, talk to any of them. They have said, I’ve heard them say myself that her presence, the White House keeping the this elevated, let them know that this is important and that what they are doing is on the right track. That work is very important to make sure that the activists on the ground organize organizing the people in these communities around this issue, Kansas, every place in America in the south of New York nineteen.

Okay? It was very key. Look, I think that president Biden has got a wrong for reelection in the event that he decides he does not. He is not going to. I think that it will be a very robust democratic primary.

It will be a very it will be not a lack of fireworks. But the end, I think the vice president of the United States of America will come out on top. And because of this, when Bin candidate, Biden said he was going to the running mate, in the leader to it. He said he wanted to pick someone who he believes will be ready on day one, who could be president. He talked about being a bridge to the future.

And so if he says he’s not running, there is not a scenario where the current president does not endorse his current vice president. This is not an Obama Biden situation. It’s not the same thing. This is very different. He himself threw his support behind her when he picked her.

And if you think the base of this party, black voters women Women of color are going to stand for the person that they helped get elected saying, oh, no. Now, this woman, this woman of color, the first to do it, the a person who has been a person. Every single thing that she’s done and continues to exceed expectations and raise the bar. Actually, I take back what I said, not her. I’m staying out of it.

Somebody else that that’s gonna apply. It’s not gonna fly. And I think everybody knows that. But I I also think the president Biden believes in her. So while it will be a robust primary, There’s a lot of other people that think they want to be president too.

Some of them work in this administration. Those people will need to quit their jobs. Meanwhile, the Vice President of the United States of America’s flying around on Air Force two, being vice presidential, okay, doing all the things, and looking looking like a freaking president. Okay.

Why we’re overtime, but I have to I just have to know. You just gave this huge and I I’m interested. I think that’s so fascinating that you feel that way. And I think that’s maybe right. But, like, okay.

So my my one follow-up, Ben, is I’ll let you go. Why why is there so much turnover? Like, why does she sometimes feel like she isn’t answering questions? Well, I I wanna get there. Like, help me get there.

Like, don’t you sense that that sometimes she feels a little like, she can’t handle some of the q and a Hey. And

isn’t it concerning

that so many people are elite, like, that there’s not, like, Kamala people around? I

think that there are Kamala Harris people. A number of the people that recently left, they had worked for her since she was a United States senator. But that never popped up in any of the stories. Even though when I worked there, I told the people about it, like, oh, look at all these people that worked there. So you’re inside there.

I mean,

you’re feeling like the the pee that she does have a a trusted team and that this is it isn’t the shit show that, like, the political White House playbook wants you to believe it is? I

think that the vice president is someone that folks have never seen before. She’s a black woman in America who has risen through the ranks of local politics all the way up to the White House. And very quickly. And I think that there are a number of people believe that that is not something she should be able to do. I think that there is a misinformation and a disinformation machine that is dedicated to chipping away at who she is because people know how powerful she really is.

That is Live Fox News. Is dedicated to running all of these things about her. That is why if you look at the what is happening on social media, specifically the chatter around her, and they’re targeting of her. You know, they’re trying to make fetch happen for lack of a better time. People are consuming things via clips.

And if you clip one piece of a speech, right, that is not in context and it’s like, oh, she lost her footing there. She wasn’t really I mean, I just don’t think it’s representative. I really think people need to take the chatter and juxtapose it with with the reality. What is actually going on? I also think knowing what I know and haven’t worked in there.

I think there is a recognition from her team. Of all the things that I just said, all of the things that she is up against, the higher expectations, the the the constant, like, targeting of her. The microscope that is on her, the fact that she has never been treated just as an elected official, but the press never stopped treating her as a candidate. Right? Now that you heard as a straight media apparatus, we all view her as a candidate and waiting.

And it’s a very different feeling. So I think there is a recognition from that on their part. And I don’t think it’s fully figured out yet. Right? Like, they haven’t fully figured it out.

This is something that no other vice president has ever had to contend with before, and that’s what I just always try to remind people. Like, this is not Joe Biden, Dick Cheney, Mike Pence, insert whatever other previous vice president you’d like into the sentence. This is Kamala Harris, and that in and of itself means that we have to maybe think about it a little differently. Yeah. Well,

I just I don’t wanna close the two nice things on this front. I’d love my little baby girl’s shirts that she wears with all the white dudes and then Kamala Harris at the end of it. I love t shirt. I love the symbol. I love the I love what she has achieved, and and it it gets me a little emotional thinking about it.

And I also she made me a little of her clint at the at the respect from Mary Jack’s speech, I did not realize this. When she was attorney general, she married the two plaintiffs that were challenging prop eight. Yeah. So kind of going against what the state of California had just voted for, she married these two women. As attorney general, and and they now have four kids, and they were there in the White House lawn.

And and that was getting me all emotional too. So I there’s a lot there to like. It’s just sometimes just wonder hopefully, you know, she can put it all together. Simone, you’re so amazing. Ask ourselves

why we don’t know about that. Why don’t we know? Mhmm. You’re you’re

so amazing. Thank you for taking this much time. You’re great. I love that we did this. I hope we can do it again soon.

You have a merry Christmas and, you know, Katie and Jason play some Beyonce music on the way out, and we’ll see you all back here on Monday with, I think, a next level takeover of this podcast, but I don’t know, we might have another surprise. We’ll do it all over again. On Monday. Thanks so much, you know. Thank you.