Sundance at 40

Welcome back to the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. My name is Sunny culture editor at the Bulwark. And I’m very, very pleased to be rejoined today by my friend, James Emmanuel Shapiro, who is the president of US distribution at x y z. Has a history in, in exhibition, distribution. I’m excited to talk to him about, the the big event from early in the year every year Sundance.

You you just got back from Sundance, a day or two ago here. We there are lots of lots of stuff going on there. From your perspective as a long time festival goer as somebody who was there to to buy movies. Right? I mean, that is your That is your, your job now.

What was your sense of how things at the festival were compared to years past?

Well, there’s gonna be two different answers. I mean, this year’s market felt robust. Like, I felt like the top end of demand for titles, all those titles have offers and have either sold or will sell the next week or two. And there’s about eighty titles or ninety titles at Sunance this year. So, like, the top level is probably like that top ten, fifteen, maybe twenty titles.

I think ultimately we’ll see Like all twenty of those titles are are gonna have homes. And there’ll be maybe a few others that’ll trickle in that will go to, like, more specific niche distributors that are waiting for the dust to settle And, you know, basically the stuff that they’re interested in, once all the big boys will pass on a title, then That’s when sales agents will start going into more niche distributors and seeing if they can just make a sale. And so I think they’ll be some additional sales there as well. But the other piece of this is this was Sundance’s fortieth year anniversary, and I think that there’s, you know, a lot of reflection going on because it’s an anniversary year, and Finance as a whole feels like more fragile? Than they ever have before.

And I mean, I would even argue the same thing is true with Toronto. You know, and I think that the challenges that The exhibition community is facing, you know, in a post COVID world. You know, in twenty twenty four, where box office is still not expected to rebound at the pre COVID levels where we’re talking about ten to eleven to maybe twelve billion dollars a year and you know, in in total box office, and this year we’re looking at, like, between eight, nine, you know, is the, the forecast Pustles are are, you know, in that same, you know, it’s a very similar industry. Taxhibition, festivals, and they’re definitely struggling. Both Sundance in Toronto had to cancel At least one festival, some anti to cancel too.

And the lack of ticket sales in his canceled years has really put them in a position. It feels like where Again, they’re they’re most fragile that they’ve ever been. So while the market was really robust, it’s on Nance, there’s still is sort of like this underlying anxiety at, you know, where these premier festivals, whether they’re gonna still be able to continue in a post COVID world with exhibition just being less. Than in what it was before COVID, and therefore festivals are gonna mean less. And that is a a real issue with the entire marketplace because Sundance and Toronto and a few other, you know, markets are key.

For a lot of independent films to find distribution. You know, the the model has always been, you make a movie You bring it to a major film festival, and therefore you’ll find a home for distribution. And hopefully, in a way where you’re you’ve been paid the cost of what it took to make the movie upfront at these festivals. So if these festivals disappear or become something much smaller than what they’ve been in the past, then the ability for smaller movies and independent films to get sold in a fine distribution That model’s gonna have to change away from the reliance that they currently have at festivals to get sold.

Let’s I let’s talk about fragility here because I I wanna I wanna, try draw a distinction between the the part of the festival that just regular movie goers, regular movie lovers go to to either cover, you know, stuff for an outlet or just to watch the movies versus the market itself. Cause I feel like those are two very Those are two intertwined but very distinct things. So when you say that the the the the the festival itself feels fragile, are we talking about like, it could go out of business or, you know, could, could be in danger of shutting down. I mean, I I feel like that kind of happened with south by southwest. Maybe I’m misremembering.

I feel like there was a festival that did basically go out of business, kind of, and then came back. At a smaller smaller level. Or or are we is it it would it would it just continue as just a marketplace?

Well, I mean, the the the way I’m describing sundance is fragile. I’m talking about the whole thing. So there really isn’t when you go to can, you go to Berlin, Those are festivals that have a significant component alongside of it. That’s the market. So sundance doesn’t have a quote unquote market, but it is a market itself.

So there is a little bit of a difference. Right? You know, like, one’s like a giant convention, and then there’s a festival attached to it. Sundance is just a festival. So The elements that you’re talking to, the press that go, the regular person who who goes.

Those parts are just as in danger, and it’s, you know, the the question for me, because we’re we usually talk about, like, the intersection between art and commerce. You know, like, if sundance goes away, then where Toronto goes away, then what becomes an effective way for sales agents you know, and producers who sell the movies that they’re making in the best way possible. Which has always been in festivals. So if that goes away, you’re taking away the excitement of seeing a movie in a theater, and you’re sort of like relying now on people watching a movie at home, on their computer, you know, which like everybody, when you watch a movie at home, there’s distracted viewing that goes on. Right?

So the optimal way is to see the movie in the theater and at one of these best festivals. So Can these festivals go away? I mean, didn’t they lost all this money when they weren’t able to have in person festivals? You know, during the COVID years. Sonance lost two years.

Mhmm.

You know, and so that took away a ton of ticket sales. And that’s like significant revenue for them. So, you know, the the other part that you’re talking about, like, people at Utah who go to Sundance. And, like, keep in mind, Sundance is really expensive. Like, it’s price prohibitive for most people, most average people to go to.

Right. It’s not like you pay twenty dollars and you get to go see a movie. He’s, like, Park City is a resort town that, you know, raises its prices for Sundance. So, like, a one person meal is at least sixty five dollars. Right.

Right. You know, so it it it’s not like the average person can just fly in and and go to Sundance and get tickets to go see the movies. It really is local you know, like, privileged people who get to go to these festivals. Toronto is a little bit different. Toronto is a much bigger multi, you know, like city you know, it’s a city of millions.

Right.

You know, that has an incredibly diverse culture. So they they are catering a lot more Do people like regular people in the Toronto area. That’s stressful. Sunman says that a little bit for Utah, like they do one screening of every movie in Salt Lake City. But it’s not the same level as Toronto.

Yeah. I so the, you know, I guess I guess the the the thing I am, I I am curious about and and wanna get wanna get your take on. We we in the past have discussed Sundance and the the virtual screenings and the the watching it online. And it felt it felt, like, a a year or two ago that, like, that was gonna be the new normal. That was gonna be we’re gonna we’re gonna there’s gonna be a large online component, then there’s gonna be the, the, in person thing.

And the in person thing will be where, you know, the the deals are made and, you know, people meet the directors and talk to talk to distributors and producers and all that. But, you know, there will be but I I get the sense that I the sense I get from how people have reacted to it is that the online component is being looked more and more as, kind of a drag on the festival itself, or that it’s that it’s not that it is not working out at at the very least like the festival had wanted it to.

Well, I mean, I think the initial, you know, positive reaction to having an online portion because of COVID was that, again, the the things that we just talked about about how Sundance is really for the privileged. It’s extremely expensive for the average, like, press person or just the average movie watcher to go to. Like, if you have an online component, then you’re you’ve made it a lot more accessible. The people because we’re only talking about the cost of a badge. We are eight.

That’s, you know, hundreds may be low thousands. To get on, and then you can watch all the movies. So all of a sudden you’re you’re opening the festival which sort of prides itself, you know, and being able to be as accessible as possible to anybody, you know, at that point. And that’s a real benefit. Right?

We don’t really wanna have a privileged system when it comes to film festivals. But, you know, the downsides of online viewing, as I’ve mentioned before, you know, as a sales agent, you know, my company is also a sales agent as well as production and finance and distribution. But we get to see how people watch movies on screeners. We know when they stop. We know when they rewind.

We know, you know, how much of the movie that they watched And, you know, it’s clear across the board that it’s not ideal. You know, people are not watching the whole film you know, or sometimes you see them watch all the way through the credits and you know that they just had it on in the background and they weren’t really paying attention to it. Because they let the movie go all the way to the very end. And then the other issue is piracy. You know, there have been significant leaks of major films at Sundance that, you know, the distributors, like, have gone back and said, we’re not putting our movie online, you know, because, like, we’re not able to control piracy with it.

And, you know, that’s a major major concern because you’re losing financial dollars if the movie gets out there during its festival premiere. So The the positive about it is you you’re making it a lot more accessible. But then the negative is is you’re actually hurting these movies. Because, a, people aren’t watching them in the most ideal way possible. And, b, you’re risking the movies financial future by, you know, having the movie get pirated.

And, you know, I mean, I understand that there’s a lot of anger around the fact that you know, the online portions have gotten smaller or have gone away from it all. Because again, once you open up the accessibility to it, then if you take that away, then of course you’re gonna get people upset. But ultimately, the filmmakers and the producers, you know, the ones that are the the way that you actually can choose whether the phone can be available online. And right now, the risks that come along with it outweigh the the benefits of the accessibility.

Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s I it’s funny when you say we don’t we don’t want a privilege system at festivals who want it. But I look, I and maybe maybe I’m maybe I’m wrong here. Maybe I’m just, you know, dabbling in a little bit of, my own resentments. But it’s it it has always felt a little bit to me, like, one of the one of the, elements of prestige to a festival is the inaccessibility in a way.

It’s, you know, look, the big festivals are in a mountain resort in Colorado, the French seaside, and Vienna. And, like, Toronto is probably the most accessible of all of them as you mentioned, but it it is it is doing a slightly different, thing. I do I do think I I I do wonder how much of that element of, of inaccessibility is at least part of the charm and prestige of these festivals?

I mean, I don’t think you’re wrong. I mean, You know, it it is, it it adds to the fact that it just feels special. Right? You know, and it is like this ultimate goal for filmmakers to get their movies into these festivals and to premiere it. You know, at festivals that have a legacy, You know, like, we’ll talk about Sundances.

Like I see, you know, like, where would the independent film world be in nineteen nineties if it wasn’t for sex lives and video tape? You know, and then shortly after for reservoir dogs. Like, these were movies that the programming team at Sundance saw recognized the value in it, you know, and was able to premiere it in a way that got the film distribution and, you know, elevated its stature in a way that it, you know, launched the nineties independent movement. So it is special. And along with it does come, you know, like, not everybody, you know, has access to it.

Right? That it is you know, press industry, you know, and then locals, you know, that that can possibly attend. So, I mean, I don’t I don’t think that That’s wrong. But I do think that in the context of having this online portion, it was a little bit of a solve. You know, that we’re in in twenty twenty four, accessibility means something different than it did in when the festival started forty years ago.

You know, and there is a much more of an emphasis on, you know, that accessibility. So, you know, I’m not gonna disagree with you that The privilege of it doesn’t add to its luster and its, you know, how special the thing is. But the online portion changed the dynamic. And now that part’s largely gonna go away. So we are gonna return to you know, a a place where it is gonna be just for the privileged.

But now you have people who had a little bit of a taste of it and, like, you can understand why they’re that?

Yeah. No. Total. I totally I mean, look. And again, I am not, I am in that portion of people who was like, oh, I can watch some of these online now.

That’s great. Look at look at this. Right. But it, but it does change things a little bit. Alright.

So let’s let’s talk about your your or or several days here at the festival as as the, president for US distribution of x y z. What what are what is your day actually like. Do you have, like, a checklist of films? You’re like, I gotta see this, this, and this, and then I’m gonna make offers. I like, I I wanna know what your actual day to day existence is like at the festival as a as a buyer.

I mean, it seems to be for every I mean, the phrase that I always use at festivals or marathons that you have to sprint through. You know, you you get to the part where you get home, and you walk in the door and you just drop all your bags and you literally feel like your arms and your legs just fall off of your body. Like, you get to a state of exhaustion. You know, because the screenings start at nine AM, you know, and thankfully, you know, the midnight programs at these festivals You know, started to realize that, you know, midnight doesn’t mean you have to start at midnight. Midnight only means that you’re playing at midnight.

So now you’re seeing them start at ten or ten thirty, you know, which is like you, you, you, you’re saving everybody a couple hours of sleep. You know, like, when you’ll be able to do that, but you’re literally watching movies from nine until, you know, the movies end. So somewhere between midnight and two AM. And if you’re at can, you know, it’s probably more like four AM. So you you have to get up and, you know, shower and then, you know, go to the theater.

You you usually have to be there about thirty minutes ahead of time, and if you don’t have a ticket even more. So we’re we’re talking about four hours sleep at the most, like every day. So they get marathons that you have to sleep through. And your day is made up of, you know, trying to see four or five movies a day. Which sometimes you have to get in line for up to two hours ahead of time, you know, just to ensure the fact that you get a seat And then the rest is made up with, you know, you you have the ability because these are international phone hospitals.

That there’s a group of people that you do business with that you only really see four or five times a year at major film festivals. So you you now have the opportunity to do in person meetings. So in between, like, your checklist as you put it out, like, You know, here’s all the priorities that I have. Sonance playing ninety movies. I have fifteen targets.

These are the fifteen that I gotta see. Because on paper, they look like things that I can distribute. You know, so you’re seeing four or five of those a day, and then the rest of it is you’re making them up with meetings. You know, you’re sitting down with again people that you know and you do business with, but they live in, you know, Brussels, you know, or Korea. So, like, this is the only time that you ever really get to have face to face with them.

And that’s only gonna be at Sundance, can, Berlin, Toronto, you know, maybe AFM. So we’re talking about five times a year.

Alright. So you go, you go to a movie. You you stay in line for like thirty minutes. You get in, you sit down, you watch the movie. When you’re coming out, first of all, are you there by yourself?

Do you have, like, a a team of, people? Or or how’s that? How does that work?

I mean, the answer is yes. I mean, x y z again, we we do a lot. Not just distribution. So the domestic sales team is all there. We we’re selling five movies at the festival.

You know, including a movie that, you know, got received extremely well in the documentary section and, you know, has a robust market built around it. But so they’ve got, you know, four people. You know, our partners are coming in because, again, we’re premiering movies that, you know, we’ve made significant investments in, and, you know, we we have significant hopes. And so, you know, you’ll see the partners there as well. You know, and then, like, the distribution side, you know, is myself and then an acquisitions officer, you know, who’d like doubles both for the domestic side for sales and distribution.

So he’s out there doing the same thing watching movies and and and taking meetings. So I think altogether, we had seven people, maybe.

Okay.

Maybe eight. Yeah.

Okay. And when you when you are Alright. Let’s say, alright. You see a movie. You you you wait in line.

You see the movie. You love it. You’re like, I wanna I want to put in a bid on this when I try and buy it. Do you have do you sit down with your acquisitions officer and you work out, like, run through the waterfall? Like, how does that how does that work?

Yeah. So you you you know, like you have a simple waterfall built and a waterfall is just, you know, it’s like a financial model of how much money we think can make and how much money we think the producers are gonna make, you know, on the film. But you’re mostly, you know, running it by your bosses. You know, like, there’s still is an approval process. Like, the most important thing is is, like, you have to sort of, like, understand the landscape of what you’re getting yourself into if you wanna get involved in the film.

So, you know, people, like, kind of joke and it’s actually true that, like, once Netflix at Amazon and, you know, like Apple at the end of the picture, like, that’s it. You’re not gonna really compete, you know, with those guys because they don’t have the same P and Ls that other distributors do, meaning, like, they don’t have to recoup the film’s budget. Like, you know, through subscribers. That’s part of their goal, but it’s a little bit more nebulous in figuring out, like, how much movie how much of this movie contribute getting subscribers.

Yeah. Yeah. No. It’s just, you know, you always see the headline numbers. I mean, like Netflix by by it’s what’s inside for, I think, seventeen million dollars or something like that, which is an or a no nowhere less amount of money for what is a a low budget, you know, kind of a horror thriller type type picture.

I haven’t seen it. So I don’t I don’t, you know, but it it’s Well,

I have

Is it was it was is it worth the seven See, here’s it I it’s hard to ask that question. Right? Because as you were saying, the calculus for Netflix on what is seventeen million dollars worth? Has a bunch of different meanings because it doesn’t just mean, how many subscribers will this attract and how many subscribers will this keep from quitting It it also is at least in part what are we denying to the rest of the market. Right?

Well, I mean, by that, you mean, are they spreading this money because they don’t want their competitors to have

Right. What are we keeping what are we keeping out of the hands of other studios? What are we keeping out of theaters?

Yeah. I mean, like, it it’s what’s inside, apparently, has a theatrical component to it. But, I mean, if we know by now, like, theatrical component to Netflix releases are tightly controlled, you know, so that they’re not your regular, like, sort of wide release. They don’t release box office information. You know, they don’t really sort of, like, publicly talk about the distribution plan you know, of, like, whether it’s gonna go out on x number of screens in week one, you know, they the the theatrical for them is clearly things that are built in to make the filmmakers happy.

You know, if Ted Sarand is at his way, then every movie would be on Netflix on day one,

you

know, because he believes if Netflix is paying, if their subscribers are paying for the movies and to have the movies not available on Netflix, but making money somewhere else. Then we’re denying, you know, the rights of our subscribers. So, yeah. But Like, it’s what’s inside is, like, I mean, my reaction walking out was, like, you know, this is really terrific. It’s a lot of fun.

You know, it’s a little complicated. That, you know, the craft involved in it is really strong. And the roles are, you know, all the actors are sort of required actually to play three or four different roles. So the acting in it is terrific. You know?

But, like, it it was a different reaction than when I walked out of talk to me, which sold twenty twenty three to eight twenty four for, like, eight or nine million went on to make forty eight or forty nine million at the box office. So, like, that was an extremely big commercial hit. Three twenty four. It was their biggest genre film, you know, box office wise. Mhmm.

Like, so I walked out of talk to me and my reaction was, like, This is the beginning of an IP. You know, it’s gonna be like, you know, hugely commercial, like, you know, whoever gets this is gonna be lucky. This one was a little bit more reserved. So it was like, you know, I really like it. I really think it’s commercial, but it’s super complicated.

To, like, I don’t know how much you could just assume that it was good to do another fifty million at the box office if, like, a twenty four bought it. Mhmm. Like, I And I I mean, I think that that was certainly sort of how the market reacted to it. Like, there were some other offers that had theatrical components. You know, attached to it.

But, you know, they they sort of faded away around ten million, which again, what I would talk to me, sold for. So the fact that Netflix took it off the table for seventeen with, like, you know, that includes all the money that producers anticipate giving his overages you know, in a traditional distribution deal. So, like, Sony paying ten upfront for it versus you know, giving out another ten million in back end, you know, Netflix is effectively just giving the back end upfront.

Yep. You

know, with that seventeen million dollar number. So, you know, like, you know, to answer your question, it’s like, you know, like, that’s a crazy, crazy, crazy number, but it it’s a makes sense for flakes. Because again, somebody else is probably gonna end up paying that same amount. You’re just paying it out in different portions where You know, you’re paying upfront and then later on, you’re paying what the overages are, which is the profit of the movie after the distribution companies recupped all their expenses.

Yeah. Yeah. And when you when you’re so when you’re when you have your checklist, I mean, are you looking at we need We need, a horror picture. We need, a drama. Like, what, what, when, do you were you targeting specific things, or is it just like we want the we’re gonna take the five best off the off the board that are left.

Draft strategy.

Yeah. I mean, like, look, Toronto, for example, I mean, we bought a drama in Toronto. And we’re a genre company. You know, x y z is sort of just known for like edgy, provocative international, you know, genre films. So for us to take a drama out of Toronto, it was sort of unusual, but you know, we’re big believers in thinking out of the box.

So we don’t go in thinking we gotta get a horror movie. We have to get documentary. Like, we’re not checking boxes. You know, in terms of genre, we’re not really checking boxes in any way other than We just wanna have cool movies that we think have some commercial value with exciting filmmakers that have potential for us to make another movie with, you know, beyond the one that we’re just distributing right now. So it’s it’s very specific like, targets based on the demand of the movie and what type of filmmakers made the movie you know, in terms of their quality, is it somebody that we can make more movies with?

So those are the two big, you know, questions for us.

Yeah. I have, I have two x y z films on my radar right now, as a matter of fact. The first is restore point. It’s a check, sci fi drama, which, is is is that going to have a theatrical complaint and I I thought I saw in the email that it was, but I don’t know.

No. It’s gonna be, no theatrical. We’re releasing it in a couple weeks. So I’m I’m glad it’s on your radar. It’s a terrific, sci fi noir that, you know, I think has similarities.

The minority report and blade runner. The world building in the film is really terrific. And again, it’s his first time filmmaker. It got nominated for, like, ten some awards at the Czech equivalent of the their Oscars. So it it definitely crossed over to the mainstream there.

You know, and again, this is a filmmaker that, like, we’re really excited and we’re we’re looking at his next movie for the, you know, The reasons why we like to restore points so much. So, you know, again, it’s like going back to this idea, like, is this a filmmaker that we wanna you know, keeping the family and make other movies with.

Yeah. Yeah. And then the other one, which is not it’s not coming out for a little while. I don’t think. But I know you’re very excited about skyline Warpath, which is from the skyline series, which I it’s funny because I texted you.

I was like, wait, Has Skyline always been a martial art series? Cause I could’ve sworn it was just like kind of a standard sci fi action series, not a, you know, Frank Grillo Scott Adkins type thing. But it turns out, the I I had not watched enough of the the series.

I mean, like, like, I I love these movies, but the thing about it that I love the most is, like, it’s actually a series. And they’ve done such a good job with it. And each one of these installments has been really successful. And again, it’s not like you know, they’re box office films that are making tens of millions of dollars of the box office, but they’re really successful in their space. You know, so like Netflix did distribution on the second one and it was like it got a ton of views for them.

So but the fact that this is the fourth one, they’ve done such a good job sort of building an incredible mythology, you know, like, around the narrative. That now it just opens it up that you can tell different stories, you know, in this universe that are not necessarily tied to the main story, which sort of started in the first one, and then sort of, you know, veered into a different direction in the second one. And then the second half of the second one, it becomes like a full blown martial arts movie. And then the third one returned to like sort of the space opera roots. So this is, like, you’re returning it into the martial arts piece of it.

But, like, the way that Warner Brothers is selling Furios, as a mad max you know, tail or like part of the saga. You know, that’s the same, like, you know, idea that we have here. Because, like, you know, the universe has got such as cool and, like, established mythology, and, like, the characters are well developed enough that you can open it up into different directions, which is what they’ve done in the fourth one, and that’s why I’m like. Really excited that I’m a part of this because I don’t just think it’s gonna be about this, you know, this next movie. This is a a whole series now.

That, you know, is clearly able to to open itself up in really big directions. And that’s pretty rare in this space. So, yeah, I’m I’m really thrilled that I’m a part of it now.

Well, I I I think I remember your your tweet was something like I got an IP, which is

Yeah.

Which is a rare it’s a rare thing to to have one of these come on the market. How does that make it easier to sell the movie, basically? Like, When you when you have when you go to people and you’re like, I got the I got the fourth skyline movie. I got, I have Marshall artists that you know that people recognize from the John Wick movies or wherever else, you know, I’ve got I’ve got guys, and I’ve got a title you should pay more for this. How does that how does that work?

Well, I mean, like, the the general idea around IP is that It has a built in audience. Right? And not only does it have a built in audience, but the mainstream audience that you desperately need to get to cross over into your IP film, like If you just get the fans to see it, then you’re looking at something like solo, right, where, you know, it’s like a Star Wars IP that only made x number of dollars, you know, at the box office, which was three or four times less than what the normal Star Wars movie does. That’s a movie that only the fans went and saw. Right?

You had no crossover into the mainstream. But having an IP, you have the potential of getting mainstream crossover just because they recognize you know, the title. So, like, to be in the independent space and to get your hold of something where I don’t have to build an audience at a scratch for this movie. Like, it already has a built in audience, and it already has the ability to cross over into a mainstream audience. Like, that’s incredibly valuable.

So, it it is. It’s a real privilege. Plus, I I honestly think that the the people that are involved in making these movies are unbelievably talented, and they should get access to larger budgets, you know, and bigger stories. You know, because they are really, really talented people that are making movies that look this good at, you know, on pennies on the dollar for, like, as opposed to a regular budget, like, sci fi epic.

Yeah. Is I mean, look, you you use as as you put it, the these, the sequels, at least have been, you know, more VOD, oriented in the in terms of their business. But is this The sort of thing that because it has that fan base, because it has recognizable names, you could do a limited or maybe larger run, something like a, you know, a swamp or whatever?

Yeah. Well, I mean, like, look, it’s not gonna be like an Indian diaspora movie, but It is like the voltage we’ve told the producers and the filmmakers is everybody else has done this wrong. We’re gonna do a right. And that includes, you know, like, the ability to try to do a theatrical release for it into, like, a meaningful theological release, you like for it. So it it it’s a hundred percent.

It’s like we think that there’s an opportunity here you know, that hasn’t been done, you know, with this series yet, and we’re gonna really, really push it out. And like, again, we feel like we can elevate this release and we’re on the fourth edition, but, you know, this is gonna be the first one that really gets like a significant can’t look in theaters.

Mhmm.

And, you know, that’s super exciting for the filmmakers as well as ourselves.

Yeah. No. I mean, I look, I I think I think the audience is there for this sort of thing. Certainly, I mean, again, at a at a smaller level, we’re not talking a thirty five hundred screen release or anything. But

But, like, look, theaters needed. I mean, like, the big issue with theaters right now is, like, there’s just a lack of product and you, you know, mentioned that at the beginning, you know, like, people, like, at Sun Nancy, like, oh, we can get something out and, like, you know, now where there’s such a little, you know, amount of movies that are in theaters, but I I just think theaters in general have to be less reliant on studios and more reliant on, like, the Taylor Swift movie is a good example of like something that came out of nowhere is not affiliated with a studio. It still made significant money at the box office and kept theaters in business. Like godzilla, you know, minus one, that’s another example, right, or something that nobody had any idea You know, like, was maybe two, three million at the box office, and then maybe he’s gonna do sixty or whatever.

So

Right. Theaters need this. It, like, if skyline can you know, build a little bit of a box office, you know, like component for it. Again, this is a a way for the theaters to be less reliant on studios, which I think is the something they have to do just to survive. Like, they’re they’re gonna need product that, you know, they didn’t expect because, you know, not only your studios have less titles, But, you know, there’s serious questions around, like, the financial future of Comcast because of like cord cutting.

You know, like, How is Universal gonna be able to survive if their parent company, you know, loses like the business model that made them successful with Disney is, you know, still one of the top studios, but they they’ve had a challenged year. And, you know, superhero movies in general or, you know, challenge, although I don’t think everybody realizes that deadpool three is probably gonna make a billion dollars. But, like, that could be the, you know, the anomaly. You know, like, the other ones might not do as well. So if you can’t count on the avengers anymore, then again, you’re gonna need more skylines to help.

You know, get us back to eleven billion dollars a year in total box office.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I know one of the reasons that theaters, the exhibitors, are always a little hesitant to to book stuff that doesn’t have studio backing is, you know, the question of awareness, you know, you can put something in a theater. That doesn’t mean people are gonna show up because Right. You know, they don’t they don’t know about it.

So, you know, as as a distributor, you know, when you’re when you’re looking at you’re looking at something like skyline Warpath, you’re like, alright. How do we do we get that audience out there? What what are what are you what are some of the strategies you guys are considering just to to get that awareness up there?

Well, I don’t wanna give away all the secret sauce, but, you know, We’ve got some fun stuff planned. I’ll put it that way.

Okay.

But I mean, like, in general, There’s a lot of traditional, you know, distribution marketing that has greatly shifted, you know, over to digital media. You know, so you don’t just rely on newspaper ads and trailer play and stuff like that. You you do take advantage of the digital marketplace and, you know, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. I’m not gonna mention Twitter because there’s such a disaster these days to advertise with. But, you know, like, there there is that component.

You know? Like, I mean, I I this is not MadVax, but I’m gonna keep calling at my MadVax, you know, Like, I really do wanna lean into the fact that this is a, a franchise that a lot of people are aware of. Mhmm. And you know, Liam is a phenomenal filmmaker that deserves recognition at the level that, you know, the John Wick filmmakers are getting. You know, like, I I I do think he is that good.

So, I mean, I’m gonna lean a little bit into that, but, like, Look. There’s just fun things that we have planned for this release that Netflix and the other companies have worked on these movies. Just are plugging them into their system. This is not gonna be a plug and play movie. Like, this is a real opportunity for us to go crazy with something that, you know, has at least some value in this space, you know, because it’s the fourth one in the series.

Yeah. Well, I’m excited to see what you guys do with it. I’m excited to to check it out. Alright. So, you know, as you know, I always like to close by asking if there’s anything I should have think there’s anything.

Folks should know about Sundance, the state of exhibition, where things stand, etcetera. What what do people need to know about the industry right now?

I mean, you know, I’m gonna always say these things. The more support you provide on the film the better the entire ecosystem is going to be, and streaming is the cheapest, most accessible way of watching a movie. And the ecosystem is not gonna survive if that’s the only way for us to watch movies. Like, we have to still have a robust theatrical world. We still have to have a robust transactional world where people are renting or buying the movie on Bluray or on tunes in Amazon Prime and Vudu and Google.

Like, you know, if you want movies, you know, to survive, You have to be willing to support it outside of streaming? Singing

my tune. I, also also very much strongly agree with that. Thank you, James, for being on the show. I really appreciate it.

Yeah. Again, I I enjoy coming on, Sunny. Thank you.

It has been too long. We’ll get you we’ll get you back on when, when warpath drops. I’m excited. To talk about that. You gotta you gotta hook me up with with those guys.

Alright. Alright. My name is Sunny Bunch. I am Culture Editor. At the Bulwark, and I will be back next week with another episode of The Bulwark goes to Hollywood.

We’ll see you guys then.