Stephen Hayes: Grading Biden

Hey, guys. We have a great conversation with Steven Hayes as a dispatch today where we hash out some disagreements over how to handle the twenty twenty four election, how to view the choice, between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. I think some of our, you know, JBL, Biden, Stan Stan listeners, some of our lefties might hear some things from Steve they don’t like. I think that’s good. We gotta have these sorts of conversations.

We gotta have these dialogues. I’m committed to doing it on the podcast. I wish more people would be willing to come on to do it. So I just wanna thank Steve. For his willingness to do so.

By the way, if you haven’t signed up for Bulwark Plus, if you need a little JBL after your Steve Hayes, he was on just between us with Mona, Yesterday, on Friday, we have a Secret Podcast, the JBL and Sarah. We have a ton of great offerings for Bulwark plus members, by the way Borg plus members comment on Substack and give us their feedback when they hear things they don’t like. So please, if you haven’t yet, go to the bulwark dot com slash free trial. You can sign up to join board plus support conversations like this. Really appreciate y’all up next, Steve Hayes.

Welcome to the Bulwark podcast your host, Tim Miller. I’m delighted to be here today with, like, my fourth or fifth favorite employee at the dispatch editor and CEO, Steve Hayes. Hey, brother. Thanks for coming.

Hey, man. How are you? Can you list the top four or five for me?

Well, obviously, Allah and Decklyn, and then we’re gonna keep the ranking after that a little bit personal. Okay. You know, my boy, Jaclyn, has gotta be number one.

So I guess fourth or fifth isn’t bad.

Yeah. Not bad. Rachel, maybe. Okay. I don’t know.

We’ll talk about We had a great exchange on your podcast when I was doing my book tour. Was it a tour? You know, my book podcast tour, whatever you wanna call that. And We got a lot of good feedback, and, I’ve been wanting to do a redux, and you did an editorial that gave us an opportunity for that last week. And so I appreciate this.

I think it’s good. I you know, it’s so weird. We’re we’re like a wash in political opinion, and yet everyone is is shrinking into micro bubbles. Where for all of this political opinion, we have, like, very little, good faith, engagement, and dialogue. So I’m grateful you’re doing this.

Jamie did a double No.

I’m with you. And I appreciate you, taught a seminar at the University of Chicago, and you came and graced us with your presence there. And we’re one of the favorites of the students They loved our exchange, and they loved your, should we say unconventional and informal analysis of the state of play. I think you were a little free. You you talk in a language that they understood, which was great.

That’s nice. I have no hopes to be the White House press secretary anymore, and so I can just cuss. You know, I think that’s basically the short term for it. Anyway, before we got into, you know, big think stuff about classical liberalism, the state of our democracy. We had an election last night in Ohio.

Another l for the normies. Bernie Moreno sweeps every county beat Matt Dolan by about twelve points. Moreno had previously in twenty sixteen, said there was no scenario in which I would support Trump that Trump played to people’s worst emotions. Trump is the nominee. I think they’re party is a different party and not a party that I wanna be a part of.

That was Moreno in twenty sixteen. But he did the full Maga pivot, like so many of our other pals, and ends up winning pretty handily last night, despite maybe there were some hopes, I think, on the Dolan side that this might have been a rare win for the you wanna call it, the more establishment side of the GOP, how do you how do you assess what we saw in Ohio?

Yeah. I mean, it was it was interesting. I don’t think Anybody would say that Dolan ran as an anti trumper necessarily. He he sort of downplayed his differences with Trump, even though I think he was pretty clearly the most Trump skeptical person in the race. No.

I think it’s notable that all three of those candidates were at one point pretty strong never trumpers, pretty outspoken never trumpers. Two of them, Moreno, and Frank La Rose, the former Ohio secretary of state, basically just flipped. In some cases, I mean, I started following Frank Larose on social media, I don’t know, four or five years ago in part because he was saying things that were skeptical of Trump at a time when fewer people were.

He was one of the good secretary of states.

He was. He didn’t

go like full Ravensberger, but he was, like, in that mold. Dish?

He was. He was. And he wasn’t afraid to sort of unapologetic about the way that they ran the election. He was he wasn’t afraid to sort of speak out about it. And then to watch him periodically, you know, when his tweets came across my my feed, sort of accommodate himself to trump and trumpism was, you know, we’ve seen this story how many times.

Hundreds thousands of times. But it was interesting to watch it in in this case. And, you know, this is somebody who ended up, you know, really selling out for for Trump and trumpism. I don’t know what he he ended up with, like, twelve percent or something, didn’t work out for him. But I think it’s, you know, if the macro point is, these are three people who were once openly and outspokenly opposed to Trump, and two of the three of them became trumpy.

And one of the three of them I think campaigned in an in an honorable and responsible way, but certainly wasn’t advertising that he was skeptical of Trump.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, an interesting kind of parallel that was last set. I don’t know if you saw this one, but there’s this Illinois. I think it’s the twelfth where you had Mike Bost who was again not not an anti-twenty.

You know, he’s not, like, out there like Adam Kinzinger, but, you know, he’s more in a traditional Republican vein and he is primary by Darren Bailey who runs as basically a Gates, maybe Gates plus kind of like a gate smart retailer green combo type Republican. Boss holds out barely but has the trump endorsement. Right? You know, this is one of those things where Bailey still almost wins that primary, and and the more normal candidate only wins thanks to and assist from Donald Trump, and it just kinda feels like that’s the same story over and over again. I’m like, there’s the Brian Kemp exception in Georgia.

And, like, that’s, like, basically it. I’m sure he can come up with two or three other exceptions.

Right. And the I mean, the the Trump endorsement is hugely meaningful in Republican primaries. It’s not determinative necessarily, but it’s it’s hugely influential. And, you know, one of two things generally happens after Trump candidates within those primaries, they go on and serve in office and become I think are more beholden to Trump than they otherwise would have been, which I think is the point of the endorsement. Or they lose.

They they face plant, like Doctor. Oz, like Hershel Walker, like Cari Lake and others. So I would say coming out of Ohio, this makes this a much more competitive race than it otherwise would be. I think if Matt Dolan wins and runs against Sherrod Brown. There’s a reasonable chance Matt Dolan is the next Republican senator from Ohio.

I think Bernie Moreno is gonna be a much tougher cell, even in a state that has been sort of decisively read in recent presidential elections. You know, when JD Vance won the Republican primary in a relatively crowded field last time, which included for a short time Bernie Moreno, Mitch McConnell’s outside groups had to come in with something like forty million dollars to get JD Vance over the finish line. That’s pretty extraordinary in a state that is trended as red as Ohio has.

Yeah. One more thing before we, you know, get over that. Or the Ukraine debate going on over in the hill. I’m thinking that maybe you get more calls than I do these days from Republican, congressional people or folks around them. I what is your sense on the state of play of that and, just kind of broadly on kind of the Ukraine debate going on on the hill right now.

Yeah. I mean, it’s, like, so many other things, in this weird political moment. And by moment, I mean, you know, the last eight years, where Republicans will say one thing in private and say another thing in public. And it’s it’s really sad. I think if you took a blind show of hands in the House Republican Conference on Ukraine, more funding and and significantly more funding.

Would pass overwhelmingly. I think that the thing that that bothers me as much as anything is you have people who are not only saying, you know, making this sort of classical non interventionist case. Hey, you know, this doesn’t matter. We we really need to mind our own business. We should be looking at the border here.

All the arguments you sometimes hear have kind of been shoved aside by more conspiratorial arguments about Boldermere Zelensky, about Ukraine and corruption, about them being on the wrong side. And so much of that has roots in in Donald Trump’s efforts to use Ukraine to get reelected in effect. And it’s dispiriting to see Republicans who otherwise know better, I think, making some of those arguments, the kind of not just the principle non interventionist arguments, but the this is the center of, an anti trump conspiracy. We don’t care about vladimir Putin kind of thing.

This quasi takes me to, the editorial for folks who don’t know what I’ve been referencing. You guys wrote that the American people should demand better. How the how the dispatches thinking about a Trump biden rematch, basically said, I guess I’ll let you characterize it, but both of the candidates are not acceptable. You don’t like the lesser of two evils premise. But before we get to, like because I think we pretty much agree on the trump of it all, think it’d be interesting to kinda hash out the Biden part of what you guys wrote.

And I guess I I’d like to start, though, there, with Ukraine. Right? I mean, how how would you assess how Biden has handled Ukraine during his presidency?

Reluctantly, slowly. And in effect, the kind of leading from behind that we were used to seeing from Barack Obama. Really?

You’re leading from behind, you would say? Yeah. For that more.

I think we’ve taken our cues too often into too many important moments from Europeans. I don’t think there’s anything wrong necessarily with saying to Europeans. Hey, this is in your backyard. We really need you to step up. But for the most part, they have stepped up.

And you’ve seen sort of desperate pleas from the Ukrainians and from some Europeans, for better equipment, for fighter jets, for, you know, one after another after another of these things. And let’s say that biden administration usually gets to the right place, but just dithers for months and months and months when I think those kinds of things could have been meaningful. I mean, and what I think here isn’t that important. It’s the, you know, people I talk to who know this stuff a lot better than I do. Sure.

Sure. Sure. Think it could have been meaningful. And credit to him for standing by Ukraine for making the argument. He doesn’t make it as often as I would like him to.

But I think there have been costs to the way that he’s led on Ukraine.

I mean, the rallying Allies element, I guess I wonder if you look at the political scene in America today, maybe the answer is nobody. And who would be best representing what you think is the right thing on Ukraine. Like, I don’t know. Jake Ockenklaus, like, one of the democratic hawks in the house. I don’t I could, like, I guess, where on the Steve Hayes continue?

I’m from Trump, the main body of the Republican Party, Biden, Democratic hawks. Like, where where do you fit on on the Ukraine discussion?

Yeah. I mean, just in terms of positioning, you know, I think you’ve had some Republican senators who’ve who have made a good case, many Republican senators who’ve made a good case. Haven’t made it as often as as I would like again, but, you know, John Thune has has said good things. John Corin has said good things. Mitch McConnell has said good things.

You know, in the house, Mike McCall But

I mean, it’s their fault right now that there’s no funding. It’s like their fault. It’s like Mike McCall’s fault that Ukraine isn’t getting the weapons they need. It’s not Joe Biden’s fault. It’s like Mike McCall’s fault.

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s Mike McCall’s fault. I would say it’s more Mike Johnson’s fault. Right? Right.

But I mean, if Mike McCall got with Joaquin Jeffries and said, Hey, we’re go around this guy, they could have had the funding two months ago, but they just refused to do that.

Yeah. So I think certainly Republicans, both in the house and the Senate should be more aggressive about Ukraine funding right now. Full stop. No disagreement there. If you’re looking at the arguments that they’ve made broad about the importance of supporting Ukraine, I think that they’ve made better arguments than than Joe Biden has.

And they they have made arguments that reflect, I think, the urgency of the situation in a way that Biden just hasn’t. You know, I mean, you you go back to the to the days before before Russia invaded, and you had that Biden comment about, you know, the possibility of a minor incursion and sort of, you know, set our response will be dictated, I’m paraphrasing here. But our response will be will be dictated in part as to whether this is a minor incursion or not. I don’t necessarily think that was the green light that some critics suggest it was. I think Russia was gonna do what Russia was gonna do.

Right? But it wasn’t helpful.

I mean, were you expecting more than a minor incursion? I think, like, pretty much everybody would. I don’t think anybody was expecting, I mean, up until that moment, I was expecting Keith to be, like, bombardment of Keith. I I I think that a lot of folks were cut off guard by that.

I was expecting not because I’m seeing around corners, but I was expecting a fuller scale invasion. I mean, I think they were doing what they were doing for a reason. But, yes, you’re right. I mean, you’d look back and listen Secret Podcast from respected places like the Institute for the Study of War, and they were not expecting a full scale invasion. I just think articulating it that way suggests the the kind of ambivalence that Biden has had toward this project from the beginning.

Oh, you said it. Think he deserves credit for ending up on the right side of it. I mean, it’s like Joe Biden on foreign policy in a lot in a lot of different ways over the course of his career. You know, I I’ve I’m sort of not of the is it is it Robert Gates who said Joe Biden’s been wrong about every single major foreign policy decision you know, in his entire lifetime. I’m not as critical of of buying his hat.

I think he sometimes has ended up on the right side of foreign policy arguments, but he has this sort of meandering circuitous way of getting there. And in this case, I think it’s been slow, and I think it’s been costly.

Yeah. I love the gates. The people get the gates quote gets thrown around by people that then end up supporting Trump and gates. It’s like absolutely brutal about trump think it’s kinda back to this, but I I wanna just continue to pause before we get to the choice, element of this because I but I do think the Ukraine element is an important part of the choice. I guess you agree that the Ukraine issue would you say putting aside the broad kind of democracy or authoritarianism, etcetera, of the policy issues that we expect would face us in twenty twenty five.

But you say Ukraine is the most important?

Yeah. I mean, you I’d say Ukraine related issues, Ukraine and and made a leadership and China and Taiwan. I mean, so all the things that flow from decision making about Ukraine. No question.

Okay. So the rest of the buying and editorial, I wanted to pick a couple things. Best of the Biden element. Well, actually first, so how would you just grade Biden? I have a fun gimmick.

You know, the Hugh Hewitt, Is algebra his a spy gimmick? Here’s my fun gimmick. I’d like if you wouldn’t mind playing along with me on is I want you to grade and rank the last four presidents. So I I’m gonna let you think about this for a second. So if I’m Carrie Lake, probably grading Trump and a plus first, Brock, a minus second because she voted for him, and then George Bush, like d minus and Biden f minus.

Like, that would be her ranking. I’m curious what the Steve Hayes ranking and grading as of the last four presidents?

Just to clarify the question. Am I doing this based on the things that I believe as a limited government conservative. Yeah.

I just want you to agree. Like, yeah, what, you know, you can imagine the imaginary president of Steve Hayes’s dreams. I don’t know who that would be. John McCain back from the grave, a plus.

Nah. Yeah.

But I I don’t I also don’t wanna just on policy issues, you know, and policy is a big part of that, but also leadership and decision making, and it’s it’s better. Yeah.

Yeah. I would say I would give Biden a d. I would give Trump an f. I would give Obama a d, maybe a d plus. And I would give stuff

out there in Steve Hayes world.

I don’t believe in great inflation, Tim.

Yeah. I know. No

I’m I’m the Harvey Mansfield of your gimmick. No grade in flavor.

Okay. Two ds and an f.

And I’d give Bush a b to b plus. Really? What are your grades?

Yeah. Sure. I guess I’ll give Biden, like, a b minus or a b kind of changes. I would give, Barack Obama, a C, George Bush, like a C minus and Trump and F. I mean, I love George Bush.

Like, if we were just grading purely on a sheet of paper where you’re, like, check marking policy issues, you know, and saying where do I have more check marks, you know, despite the fact that I’ve, you know, lived up a little bit. I would still probably have the most check marks in George Bush’s side, but, like, I mean, the Iraq war is just an absolute disaster, I can retrospect that, again, I don’t we don’t need to turn the whole podcast into an Iraq war But, like, the downstream negative effects of that, I think they’re just so great that I just don’t know how you can grade them better than anything beside a c minus. So that’s where I would that’s where I land on, George Bush. And so I the gimmick I think is interesting because it’s like, okay. Well, now now we’ve level set.

So you’ve got Biden below Obama maybe or even.

Tell tell me why. Look, I was not a fan of Barack Obama’s presidency. I was pretty consistently critical of Obama. I did a lot of reporting on some of the things that that he did and said that I think were really bad for the country. I think in part, the greater concern about Biden over Obama is I really thought Obama was all there.

Now for better and for worse. Right? I mean, I think he was making the decisions. I think he was driving the process. I think he showed leadership most often not leadership in the way that I would have liked in a way that I don’t I don’t think Joe Biden is is executing the president’s I have real concerns about his mental acuity.

I think that’s a serious issue. I don’t think it’s a side issue. I think we’ve seen evidence of it. If you do look at the way that Biden said he was going to to govern the things that he wanted to do, unity is in my soul, in his inaugural address, bringing the country together. Whatever we wanna say about the obstacles to that, and I think there were obstacles when he made the claims.

There remain huge obstacles today. But I don’t think he’s covering that way, either from a policy perspective or a a rhetoric perspective.

I’m glad you’ve you brought that up. So that was one of the areas I wanted to push back on. I mean, I mean, Look, I think based on expectations when he said that, I think the conventional wisdom everywhere, including on this podcast, was that Biden was naive. About the obstacles and that he wouldn’t be able to achieve the bipartisan efforts that he that he said he was gonna achieve. Biden thought that he could.

There’s a lot of criticism on the left of him for talking about wanting to work with Republicans and thinking that he could work with Republicans. And, meanwhile, they passed a bipartisan infrastructure bill, chips, a gay marriage bill, a guns bill, burn pits, The bipartisan coalition is really with them on NATO. Like, right? I mean, on on supporting our allies overseas, on supporting Ukraine, it’s Republicans and Democrats. But you can say Biden hasn’t been a leader in that, but it has happened.

She, in the meantime, has had Republicans entire Republican class saying that he’s illegitimate, doing a fake impeachment, dragging his son through the calls. And, like, he barely talks about them. Like, he he doesn’t even talk about them that much. So I don’t know. Like, to me, man, I I feel like he is exceeded.

I would grade him above expectations clearly on the question of unity. I mean, yeah, he can’t wave a magic wand and make our Twitter discourse change and change Fox and MSNBC and make them better. But, like, for the things in his control, legislation, what he comes out of his mouth?

What did you think about his labeling? Anybody who disagreed with him, including Mitch McConnell and other Republicans, on the voting rights stuff as Jim Crow two point o.

I thought that was stupid. I thought that was stupid. That’s pretty gross. That’s that’s really bad.

And it’s and it’s consistent with what we’ve seen from Joe Biden. Over much of his career. Right? I mean, think about the things that he said when he was campaigning. He said, ah, if you’re a black person you’re gonna vote for Donald Trump, then you’re not Bulwark.

Words to that effect. You know, he has his take off the chain’s comments going back earlier in his career.

Mine has been in the public eye for fifty years and you’re bringing out three comment. I guess It’s just like any of those things that you just said.

Do you think the things I’m citing are are unrepresentative?

I do. Yeah. I mean, I think that if you put any Biden criticism that one might clutch their pearls about, like, in the middle of a Donald Trump speech, like, it wouldn’t even get tweeted about. Like, people wouldn’t even mention it.

Yeah. That’s a totally different question. Right? Your question would, to me, was not, how would you compare Joe Biden in these instances to Donald Trump? Your question was, do you think Joe Biden was a good president, and my point was he said he was gonna do these things.

And not only in my view, hasn’t he done them, notwithstanding your correct points about the fact of some bipartisan policy accomplishments stipulated. But has he led in that fashion? I don’t think that he has.

I mean, he’s he’s exceeded your expectations on that. You had no expectation that Biden was gonna do multiple bipartisan bills, did you?

So I didn’t think he was gonna be a good president. But I guess I maybe I was naive. Maybe I was falling for the the idea that because of sort of the grave crisis that the country is in. And the things that he said in the aftermath of all of the election denialism we got from Trump and Trump’s people from January sixth. I guess I thought that there was a chance that some of the things that Biden said in his inaugural, he really meant and went beyond just making arguments.

And I don’t think he’s covering that way. I just don’t. But beyond beyond just the the the Jim Crow two point o stuff and other comments like that, If you look back at the early spending proposals, he had Republicans, governors and members of Congress, who were willing to work with him on a bipartisan basis to restrain some of the spending in exchange for their support. Met with them at the White House. I have one governor telling me a a story about going to the White House, sitting down with Biden.

Biden sort of agreeing with all of this sort of bipartisan consensus on spending. And, yes, maybe the White House driven proposals are too much. We could rein some of it in here. We could come to a compromise. We could agree on something, will you support it?

And then, you know, hearing Jen Saki at the White House podium, saying in effect, the only direction this spending level is going as up. We’re not talking about pulling things back. And saying, geez, I thought Joe Biden might might have been what he said there. And I don’t think he did enough in those early days, in particular as he was looking to to set a tone. The reason that we all talk about the first one hundred days, the reason we all talk about early parts of presidency is because it sets the tone for the entire four years, and it’s usually when the significant stuff gets done.

And I don’t think he did that. Well, I’m

saving a big agreement on spending for dessert. So I just wanna stipulate that we concur about spending, and I wanna talk about that before I let you go. But I do wanna say though, again, and if you look at the bipartisan accomplishments that he’s had. And, you know, he graded Obama better than him. Like, Obama had basically none.

Right? I trump had basically none. W had a couple in the fur at the beginning, with no child left behind. But, I mean, we are a quarter of the way into the century. Like, Piden is basically the only precedent that has done anything on a bipartisan level.

And you’re like, well, not not good enough for What is our baseline?

Yeah. I think you I think you can go back and point to other bipartisan pieces of legislation that have passed under each of those presences. I think the question is how how many how many were driven by the White House and this commitment to to bipartisanship. I just don’t see it. I really don’t see it.

And I just have to lean on this one more time though. Again, he comes in in the context you gave one part of the context, right, which is that he promises to be a united. I get it. And so maybe in your view, he didn’t do everything you wanted on that regard. But he also comes in where the his predecessor doesn’t show up to his inauguration.

Sure. For the first time in history, where he’s immediately under impeachment, where he has no like, basically no rhetorical partners to work with on Unity. There will be quiet partners on policy, and that’s so that’s what he did. You know, there are Democrats that wanted him to antagonize the Republicans that wanted him to, you know, do more unilaterally, and there’s some complaints I have about what he did unilaterally. But how do you contextualize the choices that he made given that he’s in an environment where the other party is giving him no quarter and is smearing him, frankly, with with lies that are unprecedented.

And some in his own party are, like, demanding that he be even more aggressive. Yeah. I mean, I

I guess part of the answer to that is I would look at the kinds of things he suggested he would do, which is resist the extremes, on the right and on the left. And this is not a both sides comment, but, like, that’s what he said he would do. I don’t think he’s done

Has he not done that? I mean, he’s resisted the left on he’s resisted the left on Gaza. He is not he’s not tried to expand the Supreme Court. He doesn’t try to add states.

How’s he resisted the left on Gaza? In every way imaginable?

I mean, I got what are you talking about? Like, I mean, he has a he has a huge base that is demanding that he, you know, basically abandoned Israel. And, like, it was just yesterday. He’s on the phone with BBie telling him once again that he’s got his back. I mean, think about the rhetoric coming from the left.

Can you know the rhetoric coming from Rashida to leave wouldn’t even stand for him at the state of the union. It was It was Rashida to leave that wasn’t standing for Biden at the state of the union.

Yeah. If you wanna say that he’s resisted the left because he has an adopt and Rashida Tlaib’s position conceded. I’m with you. I think what we’ve seen from him is sort of an early unequivocal and strong embrace of Israel. And as the politics have proven more and more difficult, he’s made concession after concession.

He’s, I think, made both sides comparisons that don’t Bulwark, if you look at what’s coming, certainly from leaks, sometimes in the names of his top officials Jake Sullivan, and Anthony Blinking pointing out they’re sort of advertising their differences with the way that Israel is conducting the war, I don’t think he’s been a strong ally of Israel in this instance. I think he is caved to the left of his party.

Well, we, me and Jamie Weinstein went back and forth in Israel, we can go list that one. I think he’s been basically where he always is. I have the idea that a Democratic president would be even more aligned with BBie, given Baby’s behavior, and given the the way the Beebs conducted the war, I think that I think that he’s been genuine to what you would expect a central left Democrat to do given the partner that he has in Israel.

Yeah. I don’t know that he has to give a a full throated rhetorical embrace of bibi netanyahu, the the person. But you would agree that the things he’s saying and doing now with these public warnings and leaks against Israel are at a very, very different place than the things he said after October seventh where he said Israel, Scott, to do everything he can, to eliminate

Sure. But it’s been five months, though. And I yeah. I I hear you. I I look.

I wanna be able to eliminate the loss too, but I think there are a lot of factors that going on. I think that you underplayed giving Joe Biden credit with the leading from behind stuff when it comes to keeping NATO partners together. I think that a lot of our partners and other places around the world are even more hostile to Israel. And so I think that him and Lincoln are negotiating a pretty fragile balance. And, I think these done a pretty good job.

Frankly.

Let me concede a point. I think you’re right. None of this is easy. I don’t wanna give you the impression or give listeners the impression that I think this is easy and these are obvious answers and you made all bad choices on easy answers. This is hard.

And I do think, actually, some of the restraint that’s been frustrating to me with respect to Ukraine was necessary because he had to follow, in that case, some of our European partners. He couldn’t have gotten out and been more aggressive. Than they were particularly on some of the the oil issues on sort of the broader response. So in that case, I think restraint was probably wise. I’m not making the case on either Ukraine or Israel that he’s been a disaster.

You just asked me based on where I come from, the way that I see this stuff, what I think, and I think he’s he’s not been great.

It goes back to the curve. But, fundamentally, you would, you I mean, you obviously think that he would be preferable to Trump on both of those. Sure. Or maybe not on both on the crime issue. Wanna now get to the comparison.

We get to the fun part now. Alright? Now we gotta choose. Alright. I’m grading by no more of a curve than you are.

You’re Harvey Mansfield. I appreciate that. Now we get to the question of what to do about the choice in front of us, and I’m I’m a Rhino, never trump squish. As you know. Okay.

So you’ve always been more conservative than me. So instead, I I kind of wanna start this discussion and bring in a guest, somebody that you know and love, Somebody that you wrote the book on, even Dick Cheney. Let’s hear from Dick.

In our nation’s two hundred and forty six year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. Liz is fearless. She never backs down from the fight. There is nothing more important she will ever do. Then lead the effort to make sure Donald Trump is never again near the Oval Office.

And she will succeed.

You know, I’m putting on my helmet for the fight now. What do you say to Dick Cheney? Greatest threat, the country’s ever faced most important thing that Liz will do is prevent him from getting in the White House again. What do you say to that statement?

Yeah. I I think he’s right. I don’t disagree with anything said.

Okay. And so I was I was hoping for some pushback though. I didn’t know.

I didn’t know. Did you expect me to disagree?

Well, I guess I expect you to disagree because the editorial that you guys wrote assessed, you know, that you shouldn’t have to make a choice between these two candidates. And I think that the necessary conclusion of agreeing with Dick Cheney that Donald Trump is the greatest threat in our country’s history and that preventing him from getting in the White House again is the most important thing that his daughter will ever do. I would think that given where we are now, March twentieth twenty twenty twenty four, then the necessary step is to say, okay. Well, then I guess we gotta get behind the guy I gave a d to.

I’d encourage you to reread the editorial. Maybe you’ve read it more than once, but I don’t think that’s what the editorial said. And let me just emphasize that this was a a group effort. It wasn’t just me. And in talking about it here, I’m speaking just for me.

I’m not speaking for the institution.

Sure. And let’s just pause. I just let let me just read an exact sentence so that we can jerk,

please.

Okay. As we move toward the general election, the pressure from partisan cheerleader I guess that’s me, in this case, the very reluctant reluctant cheerleader. The pressure from partisan cheerleaders to line up behind one of these two unfit men will grow louder. Yes. And then you want to say that that you’re not gonna bow to the pressure to get behind one of these unfit men.

Yeah. So so what do we mean by that? Does it mean that we have to institutionally throw our support behind one candidate or the other? I don’t think it does. And I Will Saletan front that we made a mistake in the editorial.

I stand by everything in the editorial. The mistake that I made was not including a note in the editorial that we don’t endorse candidates. We’re never gonna endorse candidates. It’s been a policy since before we launched. It’ll be a policy as long as the dispatch exists.

But having said that, I would challenge your read if your claim is that we’re playing some moral equivalence for both sides game, go back and reread it. We’re not. I mean, very clear. Let me let me review an exact sentence from the editorial, which I think sounds a lot like what Dick Cheney said in the clip that you just played. We talked about whether Trump would win.

If the election were held today, Trump would be projected to win relatively easily. That would be a disaster. Donald Trump is manifestly unfit for the president’s Whether you also thought that was the case in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty as immaterial as conduct after losing four years ago and the campaign has run this time around, have rendered him a unique threat to the constitutional order. Couldn’t put it more plainly than that?

Sure. I’m not saying that you guys are saying that there’s more equivalents. I’m saying that that where you come down is that we deserve better in their their unfit, maybe one’s more unfit than the other, whatever, and you graded them one f one d. And I’m not asking you to endorse really, but you’re you’re cheese head. With context, it’s an important state.

I know you probably got some pals, some cousins, some aunts, some uncles. Some of them probably call, you know, your votes in Maryland. So your vote didn’t really matter. To call you. And it’s like, what do I do?

These two unfit men? What do I do? I think that if I’m reading that editorial and I’m Steve’s cousin in Waukesha, that I’m looking at doesn’t say, okay. I can write in George Bush or whatever because these guys are both unfit. And to me, that’s sending a signal that there is some kind of equivalence, right, that there isn’t a way to judge between the two options.

No. It doesn’t send a signal that there’s an violence. I think it’s perfectly acceptable for people to write somebody in instead of casting a vote for Joe Biden or Donald Trump?

Sure. So okay. So then how does that Bulwark? How can you agree with Dick Cheney’s statement? The Donald Trump is the greatest threat to the Democratic Republic in our history.

And also think when faced with a choice between that and the Democrat whose policy choices I don’t really agree with, the answer is neither. I don’t understand how that works logically.

Two separate questions. One is sort of the period between now and the actual election, and then one is is on the voting. I don’t have any problem with people who say that they are going to withhold a vote for Donald Trump and that that’s in effect their vote, or they’re gonna leave the presidential line Open, they don’t wanna support Joe Biden for policy reasons for concerns about his mental acuity and his age, which I think are serious serious concerns. Sure. But then you get down to Kamala Harris.

Do you think that Kamala Harris is the greatest threat in the history of the republic? Like, no.

I think she would be a disaster. I think she would be a disaster. Sir. I think she would be a horrible, horrible president.

Where’s the Donald Trump?

I mean, she’s a sentient being. She can make an argument. When she went

to the Munich security conference. She stands next to our allies. We go, like, she’s not gonna tear us out of NATO. She’s not gonna give Putin Eastern Europe. Like, she’s not gonna try to run for president again after she serves her out her time.

She note there’s no gonna be no mob storming the capitol waving Kamala Harris flags attacking officers. Yeah. I know this is a low bar, but this is the bar that we’ve had. I mean, the Republicans nominated him. So this is the bar that we’ve got.

Like, I hear you that that’s not exactly a glowing praise of Kamala Harris. But

Yeah. I mean, I think you’re probably right on most of that. Maybe not all of it. I don’t necessarily trust your convictions on on Ukraine. I’m not sure we saw much real foreign policy thinking from her during her campaign or her career that predated the campaign.

But sure. Yeah. Like I said, in the editorial and in my own voice, I think Donald Trump is a unique threat to the republic. I don’t think that that necessarily means that you as a voter have to cast a a vote in favor of Joe Biden. But if I have relatives in Wisconsin who want to say, I’m I’m not I’m writing in you name it.

I’m writing in Liz Jamie. I have no objection to that.

I guess this is like there are these choices that happen in life all the time. You know? You’re drunk at a bar, and you have to decide whether to drive home and risk a DUI or spend money on a cab, you can’t afford, and then cab back early in the morning to pick up your car. You decide, well, I guess I’ll do that. Like, that seems better than risking my life, you know.

My kids, like, the local public school is terrible. I can’t afford to go to private school, but I guess I’m gonna pinch pennies or work an extra job send them to private school because I want this happens all the time. Like, I haven’t had the luxury ever of voting for a president. I’m like, I really agree with them on everything. I mean, every president that I voted for before Hillary, who I disagree on lots of stuff, wanted to make my marriage illegal.

But I was like, yeah, I figured on balance, I like what they think about foreign policy and other issues over this. And maybe that was a bad choice in retrospect. I don’t know. But, like, this is just how it is. I, like, people throughout the country always, no matter what, phase two choices, where they’re gonna have fundamental disagreements about it, that’s the fundamental nature of a two party system.

But they don’t just face two choices. Right? I mean, quite literally, they face many choices. They could do something entirely different.

Not really, though. I mean, Donald Trump or Joe Biden is gonna president.

Really? Yeah.

Donald Trump or Joe Biden aren’t gonna be the next president. Sure. But look

at the people who didn’t vote for Trump in Wisconsin in twenty twenty. More people left that line Bulwark, if I recall, than was the difference between the Biden Trump margin. Didn’t they make a statement?

Yeah. No. That is true. That is true. That is true.

And I don’t, by the way, like, I am more interested in and how, like, the responsibility and the thoughts of somebody that is a public figure, a commentator influencer. Look, if there’s a a regular person in in Wisconsin that has passionate views about abortion and life issues that are so great that they just could never vote for somebody that wants to support abortion. I respect that. I disagree with that judgment, but, like, what I am objecting to is this notion that you can look at these two men and that you can assess and that you can be clear eyed about the threat that Donald Trump faces. And then that you can say, I don’t know.

I think that’s an epoxy on both of our houses for me.

No. No. This is exactly the point of the editorial. You’re judging this through the prism only of a boat. Right?

No. An argument for who you think is better. The editorial does not say we judge Joe Biden to be manifestly disastrous but also clearly better than Donald Trump. You could do that. You could have said that.

We think Joe Biden was a crummy is a crummy president. And we’re happy to send.

Is the greatest risk to the democracy and the history of the country. No.

Well, that’s why we call Donald Trump a unique risk. I mean, we said it very plainly.

Okay. So he’s less of a risk. You do agree. He’s less of a risk.

We say it. Like, literally, it’s it’s what I just read you from the editorial. We say it. That’s sort of

one

of the points. But let me ask you this from the perspective. I mean, you just called yourself sort of a partisan or a reluctant partisan. A huge part of what’s gotten us into this trouble is sort of knee jerk partisanship, the kind of unthinking support for one candidate or another, one party or another, from people across the political spectrum that forces this you call it a binary choice that forces these awful choices on the voters. And I think leads to a pretty significant and problematic distortion In the political debate, if we were to argue, if the dispatch, if I were to argue enthusiastically, in favor of Joe Biden when I’m not enthusiastic about his candidacy, doesn’t that have really distorting effects on the debate and the way that we operate?

Yes. But I just don’t assess that that is what has happened. The democratic side compared to the Republican side. And I think you see that happening on both sides, but I don’t think so. I think Joe Biden right now, there’s a lot of people on his progressive left speaking out to criticize him.

Think of the Bulwark, you know, we range from people like JBL who wanna put them on Mount Rushmore to people think he’s been a pretty bad president. And, we have multiple people who’ve called from the step aside at the Bulwark, and we didn’t get into this, but, I I wrote down a little note of my list of things that I’ve disagreed with them on and spoken out abortion, spending, Afghanistan. I think that people have been pretty clear eyed about Joe Biden. You very rarely see what the exception of maybe the age issue would be the one area would I would say there’s an exception. People like going on TV to defend Joe Biden and, like, making gob smackingly false Bulwark, bad faith defenses of him, which you see all the time.

Any time a Republican does any interview? I mean, did you listen to the Dan Crenshaw interview on your own podcast? I mean, it’s like, you know, the kind of strain that people have to come to come to Donald Trump’s defense is a sir. Like, I don’t feel that. I think a lot of people are pretty honest about the fact that, like, they thought Joe Biden was the best option, the democratic primary, now that they’ve got them, and Now they think he’s the best option of these.

There’s no cult of Joe Biden out there. Answer this question.

You don’t think that people are in sort of partisan fervor, people are polishing Joe Biden as a president, as a candidate. I don’t understand how Somebody who’s a conservative can look at what’s happened over the past three and a half years and think, yes, this is great for the country. With respect to Biden’s presidency.

I don’t get it. Like, what in particular? There’s so many ways you can look at.

All of the things that we discussed at the beginning of the the podcast. I mean, I don’t see how you’re a limited government conservative, and you say, boy, I look at Joe Biden. I think he’s been a terrific president. It doesn’t make sense to me. Now it may be the case that that some of these people are no longer conservatives.

Fair enough.

I can answer that. I mean, he’s followed the rule of law. You know? He stood with our allies. He’s, like, generally truthful.

The economy is getting better. Crime rate is getting better. Are there many policy issues where I would look at Joe Biden and say, sure. I disagree with that. It absolutely.

I do I wish we and and this would be a nice transition? Do I wish we’ve cut spending. Like, sure. But, like, again, are those disagreements more fundamental than the ones that I had with George Bush? No.

They’re not. But that’s

a different question. The question I’m asking is, as you face the next six eight months, and I’m I’m not talking as much about Democrats here as as much as I am about fellow conservatives, including, maybe, especially, Trump skeptical conservatives. Are we going to enter a period? My my I’ll give away my answer. My answer is yes.

We are entering such a period. And that’s a big part of why we decided to write this editorial. Where you’re going to get from people who agree with you and me on the threat that Trump is. A distorted partisan turd polishing assessment of Joe Biden’s presidency. In a way that I think is fundamentally dishonest.

That’s a problem to me. And I think we’ve had a bad debate around the presidential election for the past, let’s say, six months. And I think it’s about to get dramatically worse because you’re gonna have people saying stuff they don’t believe. To make Joe Biden appear more acceptable to Nikki Haley voters, to reluctant Trump voters, they’re gonna say a bunch of stuff about how great Biden is. That they fundamentally don’t believe.

And that I think is inconsistent with limited government conservatism.

Yeah. I actually just disagree with that frankly. I I think this is why kind of the frustration I had with you guys editorial. I think that the best thing you could say about Joe Biden right now is that I think he’s been a bad president but he’s obviously better than somebody that is a fundamental risk to the country. Sure.

Like, I think that’s the most helpful thing that somebody could say about actually don’t believe that. I feel like I’ve I don’t think anybody listens to this podcast so far would be like you’ve been really turd polishing by it. And there’s some merits. There’s some demerits. I wish he was younger.

I wish he spent less. The Afghanistan thing was a disaster. But, like, all in all, over the scope of how I measure him against other presidents of my adult life, I think marginally better. It’s kind of how I measure it. I I don’t think that that’s turd polishing, and I think that people that that are more critical of him that say, what’s good?

I mean, look, you had another I I should have mentioned this at the top, but Nick Catagio, we’re calling him now that at the dispatch road kind of a pushback, slight push back to the editorial, which I really recommend that people read. And he said, look, if conservatism broadly speaking is a belief in ordered liberty, secured by the rule of law and limited government power, those who support Trump because some of his policies will be better than Biden are signing conservatism’s death warrant. And so I guess I would say from a conservative perspective, I I think from a democratic perspective, Trump is a disaster, but, like, Having Trump be the president is the end of classical liberal conservatism. However, you wanna call it. It’s like the end of it in this country.

But Nick is pushing back there on conservatives who support Trump. So he’s not talking to me. He’s not talking to people in

the editorial No. But I’m I’m using that point to push back in your question is how can you from a conservative standpoint, like, look at Joe Biden? And and I’m saying, well, look, no. I’m looking at the choice. And a Donald Trump victory is the end of the type of conservative.

I

don’t have any problem with people like Nick, and I I agree. I commend that that piece. We think it’s consistent with the editorial. We think it was responding to the editorial, but perfectly rational argument to make. He’s an individual.

He’s endorsed Joe Biden. Fair enough. We’re happy to have people on our staff do whatever they want in their individual capacity. The point I’m making is we are going to have we’re already seeing it. We are going to have people.

I think largely in order to persuade getable, center right, disaffected Republicans, never trumpers, what have you, to vote for Biden, who are not telling the truth about Joe Biden. And I think if if you’re doing what you say you’re doing, which is Hey, I’m pointing out Biden’s flaws. I’m criticizing where I need to, and I still think he’s better than Trump. Fair enough. And that’s where I end up.

But There are a lot of people who aren’t doing that.

But I feel like sometimes it’s like, okay. We’re gonna nitpick the democratic, you know, the areas where some Democrats are gilding the lily a little bit. And then meanwhile, like, literally the entire Trump campaign is premised on

a lot. Of course, it is.

Just by saying any word in support of Donald Trump.

But I’m criticizing Trump. We’re pretty critical of Donald Trump at the dispatch.

Those people, the people that I’m talking about, you’re you’re right now focusing on the people that are spinning for Joe Biden. But, like, the people that are spinning for Joe Biden, are doing so on the margins compared to the type of spin that you see in support of Donald Trump. I mean, just the Like, totally, you don’t believe your lying eyes kind of shit. Like, we’re in the upside down world.

No. I I think it’s entirely appropriate to to do that. You call it gilding the lily, I say it’s just not honest. Like, I think people who are, you know, more more or less broadly in our business, if you see something that you think is notable. If you believe something, you should just say it.

We led the editorial off with a quote from Charles crowdhammer to say the job is to be honest and to speak the truth and to do it bluntly. That was the whole point of what we did. I think there are people who aren’t doing that. And I’ll give you an example. Joe Scarborough on morning, Joe, last week, When on this rant, this incredibly pro Biden rant, Joe Scarborough, who at one time was a conservative representative from the Panhandle of Florida.

Obviously, he’s he’s been on something of a journey, but he said, view if you can’t handle the truth, this version of Biden, intellectually, analytically, is the best Biden ever. Now I would just say that’s patently untrue. It’s untrue on its face. Very few people in the world could actually believe that if you pay attention to Joe Biden on a day to day basis. And I think one of the things that we were warning about is this kind of Bulwark.

Like, We shouldn’t do that. It’s bad. It distorts the debate. It’s not true.

Totally agree. My final question is that I wanna get to the last two things where over time already Is there a single person besides Mitt Romney in elected Republican office right now that you feel like speaks the truth? About the state of the party and the country and the leader of the party. Is there a single Republican?

Elected Republicans. No. I mean, you mentioned Brian Kemp earlier, and I think he’s he’s close.

So I’m glad you mentioned Brian Hook because I was gonna say this earlier than we got on a tangent. Again, like, I would totally hear your criticism of people that are like, oh, I think that you should vote for Stacy Abrams over Brian Kemp now because the threat to the republic is so great. Right? Like, that’s not

Right.

What I mean? I think that’s a different category. Like, that’s not the situation here at Downtown. Anyway, Kemp, okay, even though he said he’s voting for Trump, but anybody else that you think is speaking truthfully

On a consistent basis among currently elected Republicans, no. Not really. It’s pretty dark.

Pretty dark. Okay. We have one agreement now in turn next agreement. I have to do this, and then you get to ask me a question. I’m gonna let you go.

Spending, this is why I have to do this because I do not want us to be outflanked. And Madaglacias, that progressive liberal of running slow boring, wrote an article this week that I was, like, yes, talking about how this is a time for austerity. We’re at thirty four trillion in debt. I actually had to Google that. I thought it was thirty two.

And then when I googled, I realized, well, I thought it was thirty two because it was thirty two, like, six months ago.

Approaching thirty five. Yeah.

Yeah. The Biden plan for it is very modest spending flattening and tax hikes that would get blocked by the inevitable GOP senate. The Trump plan is a debt explosion. I mean, this is this is where I feel the most like I’m in the remnant with you guys. Like, what the fuck, Steve.

What is there any are there any green shoots on this? Like, do you see any anything in the future? I mean, we have interest rates this high This is absolutely the worst possible time to be running these deficits with high interest rates and low unemployment. And yet, there’s literally nobody in either party, really, besides, I guess, Tom Massey that’s like we should do something about this.

No. It’s incredibly depressing. I don’t think Biden has been good on these issues and I don’t by the White House argument, which has been fact checked fifty ways to to Sunday that he’s reducing the deficit. It just doesn’t add up. If you look at the analysis from Brian Readle, at the Manhattan Institute who is intellectually honest, certainly not carrying water for Donald Trump.

He has sort of shredded. Those arguments as have people like Glenn Castle and other fact checkers who, again, are not carrying water for Donald Trump. One of the most depressing moments of recent political memory was the was that moment at the in last year’s state of the union when Biden sort of made the accusation that Republicans were all for cutting, cut entitlements. And then Republicans in unison object to this howell and say, you know, we don’t want to. We don’t want to.

Biden concludes that by saying, boy, it’s great that we have consensus on this. You know, I’m I’m glad to hear that, sort of, Now that hasn’t kept Biden, I should point out from demagoguing the hell out of this on these entitlement questions. I mean, his White House continues to put out claims that Republicans are actively looking to cut entitlements to throw granny off the cliff, things like that. I think it’s dishonest. I think it’s just fundamentally The line I’ve I’ve used before is nobody seems to care about debt and deficits right now.

And there’s gonna come a point. I’m afraid coming very soon where everybody’s gonna care because there’s going to be sort of a catastrophic result of shedding responsibility on this and putting these things off for subsequent generations to solve. And we’re now at this point where the predictions of people were making ten, fifteen years ago about interest on the debt is gonna surpass, you know, defense spending or what, you know, fill in your blank spending. We’re now there. And some of the projections for the insolvency of Social Security and other things, you know, those used to be thirty, forty, fifty year timelines.

We’re now talking about, like, ten years. Somebody’s gonna have to step up and solve this problem. Neither party is doing a very good job.

We’re gonna have this clip when that moment comes to to Robin people’s faces. And, for the liberal listeners, I’ll go read Matt’s case on this. I mean, Matt, I’m, like, Steve. I think maybe they’d have a disagreement on the tax portion of this because I’ve been on not quite the full Joe Scarborough journey, but as I’ve been on my journey, you know, Steve, I’ve met a lot of rich people out there lately, and I’m kind of okay. We can some of them can afford to pay a little bit more.

I’m not gonna get my panties in a lot about four hundred thousand dollars a year folks getting a little tax hike, but I would like to see it paired with some some spending cuts on this. I think folks should listen to glaciers. Okay. We’re overtime, but I promise you. So you you cannot do this if you don’t want, but you do get one opportunity to take a whack at me.

And so if you can take it or pass,

Let me ask a a big question then maybe I’ll on there if we can go quickly on it. What do you see as the path out of this? Like, what would you have non trumpy Republicans do sort of broadly. If you had an item where you were pretty skeptical of of Republican donors funding normal candidates who are losing Yep. You know, you’re skeptical of people voting third party.

What what’s the right thing in your view of sort of non trumpy Republicans up and down the income ladder to do here. Yeah.

It’s a good question. And we can do follow-up on the donors. I’ll say one sentence. The big Republican donors have had the longest losing streak of any study and has And if any any rich person, any other parts of their lives, any other parts of investments, they would never spend this money, throwing good money after bad. And I just I wish they would give money to you know, under underprivileged kids or something instead of to Republican consultants who keep coming up with the same ideas.

And that’s my problem really. It’s like, okay, If you wanna engage in Republican primary fights, that’s fine. But doing the same shit that hasn’t worked for ten years and thinking you’re gonna get a new result is driving me crazy.

But if they’re taking on Trump, would you have them not do that? Given the arguments you’ve made.

They’re not though.

I mean, so they are?

No. I mean, not in not really. I mean, these ads, like, come on. I always say it’s like RC Cola running against Coca Cola. It’s like, oh, I we think we’re gonna overthrow Coca Cola by doing an ad that’s like, oh, well, we think that there’s a little bit too much high fructose corn syrup in there.

I, like, it’s just, like, they gotta either come for Trump’s head. If somebody would have said to me, okay, man. Hey, I got a hundred million and I’m gonna spend between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four to seed the ground on Fox and with the newsmax about how Trump failed. He failed to build the wall. He lost, you know, the courts told me it’s wrong, embarrassing, make him seem fat and stupid.

I’ve been like, hell yeah. Okay. Maybe that wouldn’t have worked. I don’t know. Maybe that wouldn’t have worked.

But it would have been a try. It would have been like a virtue signal, one million dollar soup ad campaign that we’ve tried a million times. It isn’t gonna work. At least that would have been an effort, how about an effort to pressures ten more Republican senators to have voted to convict it? That’s a good argument.

That would

have been a good use of rich people money. Saying that, like, okay, hey, I’ll put in a ten million dollars super pack. I this is maybe a bribe, so you can’t do it exactly like this, but you could signal to Republicans that you would offend and fight for them if that would have been good. I I think that there are a million things that you could try. And I I just I would like them to try to try.

Rather than to give the same consultants more money for their beach houses to run limp ads against Donald Trump while Donald Trump tears their face us off. Like, Donald Trump is out there. Like, Ron de sanctimonious is a short man who can’t even reach the toilet, and he’s an idiot, and he’s a loser. And then the we’re gonna have a super bad guy that’s like, mister Trump is a little mean. Like, it’s like, what?

These consultants would never do this in any other case? In no other campaign, would they be like, I’m gonna let my guy get his face ripped off, and I’m gonna do Patty cake back. But that’s what they have decided to do with Trump because they’re, like, as they think that any harsh criticism of Trump fails. And maybe that’s right. But I I I guess I would have liked to have seen them try, and I would like to see some creative thinking with all that resources.

So that was my complaint about them.

I mean, but what do you make of the effort that was poured into into Iowa early by AFP and others, spending a lot of money testing lots of ads that were pretty critical of Trump. I think weren’t just sort of tiptoeing around the trump problem. That just proved ineffective. I read that item that that you wrote, and my reaction was, what would Tim have them do? I I’m sort of, like, yeah, it failed.

Like, it didn’t Bulwark. Obviously, look where we are. But I’m glad that there are people who are still willing to, like, make the argument and put up the money, even if it ends up not working.

Yeah.

Sure. And I think you have a different perspective because you come from political consulting, and you know sort of the world of politics in a way that I just don’t. So maybe that informs your view and your cynicism of the

I like some of the testimony. That’s I guess I just want different ideas. Maybe this is wrong, but I’d love to see a rich conservative person try this rather than run a patty cake. Republican, up against a MAGA Republican in a Red District, why not run Steve Hayes as a Democrat? In a red district, or as an independent of the Evan McMullen thing.

The Evan McMullen thing didn’t quite work in Utah, but I think that was mostly about Evan and Mike Lee. I think that that model could in theory work in different places where there was a stronger conservative as the independent candidate and a weaker MAGA as the Republican candidate. I would like to see that tried. I guess I would just like to see something tried. I the the AFP ads, I thought were fine with the testimonial ads.

But man, I’d a lot of this stuff was way too little, way too late. We’ve learned from twenty sixteen. I didn’t feel like anything, but he learned anything. Nobody called me. Nobody’s like, what did you learn from the our principals pack thing in twenty sixteen?

To me, I saw a lot of people doing the same shit we did. So that drove me. Crazy. And then lastly, this is maybe too much to ask, but rather than spending five million, like, once your efforts failed, I wouldn’t mind some of them, this goes back to our other discussion saying, hey, you know what, Joe Biden’s actually better this time, but but I’ll we’ll table that. What do I think that regular people should Republican folks should do?

I’ve got bad news, Steve. I think that once Donald Trump was nominated one time, the the water was contaminated once he was nominated twice. It was another contamination, and then they nominated him a third time. I think the Republican Party pool is contaminated. Permanently, or, like, at least for a generation.

And I think the idea of thinking that you’re gonna win was inside the party, you could tell me that the right thing to do is have people who secretly are good. That have them run as crazy people. Maybe that’s your answer. Okay. I guess.

Is it better to have secretly good people? I don’t really think so. But, I don’t think it is. I I think that the Democratic primary electorate has shown itself to be much more practical in a lot of places, not everywhere. I think that there’s a realignment happening.

I think that the best case scenario for our realignment right now is that we have kind of an internationalist, capitalist, center left party a Boris Johnson y populist right party. And then we have some Steve Hayes people and some, Rashida to lead people who are homeless. I think that’s, like, the best case scenario for us. And I, like, I look at those options and I see a clear preference for me. Maybe not everybody would see a clear preference for them in that, but that’s basically what I would what I would tell folks.

I would tell folks to run for local offices But I also tell people to be clear eyed about the party, and I think that we spent a lot of time with people who aren’t very clear eyed about the party, making choices based on their false premises about where the party actually is. And, like, my final point is that to those donors and to these politicians is to anybody who’s looking for my advice about what to do. I would say, Go to a Trump rally, go to a turning point USA event, go to hang out with real Mango Republicans sitting on a Sarah’s focus groups, and then come out of that, and then whatever your strategy is, have it based on what is really happening out there. And that that is, I think, a frustration that I have with people on the Normie right.

Obviously, this is your podcast. You have the last word, but just a point on that.

No, please.

I think that part of the reason I I don’t agree with what sounds like a more fatalistic approach to all of this than I have is it’s implied in in the end of your answer, which is there are so many sort of I don’t even know if you’d call them rank and file Republicans, but let’s call them rank and file Republicans who are they’re not maga heads. Right? So, like, there’s this unbelievable activist, massive activist republican base that’s just trumpy. And we can call them part of the cult, whatever. They’re gone.

There’s there’s probably no reasoning with them. They’re they’re not getable. They’re not persuadable.

Sure.

But what do you do with the chunk? And and I was say, I don’t give a shit about the Republican Party. Don’t care about the Republican Party, not a Republican myself. What do you do with voters who are out in the country who aren’t paying attention to every single twist and turn of what’s happening here. Don’t know what’s happening at the Trump rallies.

And we can criticize them for that. Falt them for that. They should be better citizens. What do you do with them? Are you sort of write them off as, like, part of the GOP problem?

Or are they getable? Do you reachable? Do you ever talk to them? Do you make arguments to them? Yeah.

I don’t write them off. I think that the right look, I think that it’s funny. Our people are, like, in the wilderness, it’s been a flip. The question is, what would you have said to the populist right people? For all this time.

Right? They were pro voters. Sometimes they didn’t vote. Sometimes they voted for pro. Sometimes they voted for the Republican and the primary.

Maybe they thought Will Saletan might be good for two minutes, and then he wasn’t. Right? Like, I think that’s these people now. Like, I would look at them and say that’s you. You know, in Georgia, you had kind of two pretty good options.

And either of them, you probably agree to the hundred percent. Brian Kemp might be too socially conservative for this imaginary person in the Atlanta suburbs. Rafael Warnock is probably too fiscally liberal. But they were two decent options, and you can go out there and vote for them and feel good about your vote. They’re the best options available.

They’re not perfect. And I think that’s kind of your life for a generation. And maybe the tectonic plates Will Saletan, and you should organize. And if find a really good democrat you like, like Jake Ockenklaus, or you find a really good Republican you like, like Brad Raffinsberger, you should go work on that. You should go get involved and give them money.

And that is I think would be my advice. And with that, we’ve gone so far over. I’m running into my next podcast. Stephen Hayes. I wanted to give you the last word.

Do you have a final word why don’t you do you should get the last word because you came here. We had a really honest debate

I service some

people in the comments that are unhappy with you. So don’t read the comments from the people that are unhappy with you. I wanna have these conversations, and I appreciate you for coming. So if you have a final word, take it.

I don’t think much about people who are unhappy with me. I have a lot of people been unhappy with me for the last decade.

That’s true. Okay. You’re used to it. No. I appreciate it.

I enjoy doing this. I think it’s fun. We’d love to have you, do a home and home. So we’ll we’ll bring you over as things get deeper and deeper into the selection year, and we’ll do it again. Thanks for having me though.

Appreciate

I’d be honored to do a home at home. Thank you, Steve Hayes. That’s the Secret Podcast for Wednesday. We’ll see y’all back here tomorrow. Peace.

Movie. Yeah. Moscow nineteen seventy two.

The Secret Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brett.