Shawn Ryan on Past WGA Negotiations and the Evolving Business

Welcome back to the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. My name is Sunny Bunch. Culture editor at The Bulwark, and I’m very pleased to be joined today by Sean Ryan. Now, mister Ryan is the creator of FX’ revolutionary drama series The Shield. The two beautiful for this world carriers both on FX.

He co created the unit with David Mammoth and developed SWAT with Aaron Thomas both for CBS, and he is the show runner on the forthcoming Netflix series The Night Agent, which is based on the novel by Matthew Quirk. But we’re not here To talk about any of these shows exactly, though, in a way we’re here kind of to discuss all of them, I asked mister Ryan who served on the Ryder’s Guild of America’s negotiations committees in two thousand seven, two thousand eleven, two thousand fourteen, two thousand seventeen, and two twenty. To be here today to talk about the WGA negotiations over the years, kind of how the business of TV has evolved in ways that have hurt and help riders. And what he as a producer who has worked for cable, for broadcast, for streamers, all of them, basically. Things writers should know to work for more equitable treatment by the studios and the networks.

So thank you for being here today, mister Ryan. Really appreciate it.

My pleasure, Sunny.

So, you know, the reason I reached out to you is because you you wrote a a response letter to Richard Rushfield’s the angler producer or, I’m sorry, was an agent who was complaining about, you know, the the way the writers had behaved in two thousand eight and the negotiations headed into this this forthcoming writer’s possibly writer strike will see. And I wanted to get your take as as somebody who’s been in the room, not talking about any specifics. I don’t want you to betray any confidences, but when when you guys are sitting down with the producers, you know, way back in two thousand eight, what were you looking for? I it can’t be easily dismissed as some folks like to as more DVD money. That’s that’s not That’s not the case.

What what what did you guys get? And what were you how did that kind of reshape the landscape of of media?

Sure. I would say that every negotiation you start off with a laundry list of things you would like to get, if if specifics of that laundry list are leaked or discussed, there could be a mistake think that they all hold equal weight. So there were a number of things that we are looking to improve upon when the two thousand seven negotiations started. But we knew what that negotiation was really about was jurisdiction of the Internet. At that time, we had started to see repeats of shows that were aired on broadcast and cable shows.

Started to be repeated and and put up on, you know, a b c dot com. These these sort of sites that would that were the beginning of, hey, if you missed the show last night, here’s a way to to catch up. Traditionally, the guild has fought for and received residuals, meaning that when you write an episode of TV, and that episode is reused in some way, whether it’s foreign or in syndication or or repeat on the original broadcast network. There would be a set formula that would that would pay you a residual. These residuals were really important for writer’s careers.

It allowed writers to survive between gigs. And we saw that the the future was that the Internet was gonna bring our programming to people. We envision the time when something crazy like making programs for the Internet. Might might happen. And it wasn’t too much later that that that Netflix stuck its neck out and and started to create original programming.

So we knew that that was the big thing. That we had jurisdiction over over television shows that were were made for broadcast and cable TV. And that it was important that that any programming that was gonna be reused on the Internet or created for the Internet be under our jurisdiction that it would come with minimums for payments for writers that would come with residuals for writers when it when it was reused and that it would offer pension and health contributions which are important to writers and that we have fought for successfully over the years. And that’s what the strike. That was the, by far, the most important thing about the strike.

And so, listen, I I wrote that rebuttal to the Ichor piece because I think it came out either slightly before Christmas or slightly afterwards. And and, frankly, I was bored and wasn’t working during the holiday. And and and I saw so many untruths in that piece by what was an anonymous agent, so I don’t know who the agent was. I Subsequently, I have had a couple agents I know, write me and say, that wasn’t me, Sean. But I was I was just angry that there was in my mind, and I and I’ve seen this claim bandied about by a couple other people that, oh, the strike was about DVD residuals, which is so stupid because DVD’s were on their way out of these crazy writers.

They don’t know what they’re doing, and that strike made no difference. And all they it was lose money. And now there’s all this talk about strike coming up and Are these crazy writers gonna shut the town down again? And a narrative was beginning that that I rebelled against because I was in the room for all these negotiations. I know what the strike was about in two thousand seven.

It was a strike that the companies chose We worked very hard to make a deal before there was a strike. The companies chose to see if they could own the Internet without having to go through guilt stuff, and it took a hundred day strike to let them know that that wasn’t worth it. And they finally struck a deal that was far closer to what our original proposals were than to what their original proposals were. And so what I was saying was it’s a possible to calculate the gains from that strike. But imagine if you would, a world right now where every TV show that was made for Apple or Hulu or Netflix or Amazon or HBO Max, wasn’t covered by the guilt, didn’t contribute pension and health contributions, came with no residuals at all, Everyone who says a strike didn’t read anything isn’t acknowledging that all those things that exist right now and I’m not saying that that we got everything we deserved or should have gotten.

I I wish that the residuals were higher on on these streaming shows. But but I have to imagine that the gains total in the hundreds of millions of dollars for writers over the past, what is it? Fifteen to sixteen years now. So so that’s what the strike was about that. I also believe that this is just my own personal opinion that that strike was less about a conflict between writers and companies and more an internal conflict between the companies themselves.

You have to realize that there’s an oligarchy happening here between five, six very powerful companies, and to think that they all completely agree on strategy with Gil’s is is inaccurate in my point. So I think that there were companies like Fox that were more willing to invite a strike to see what they might gain on the other side. I think there were companies like CBS back then that was very reliant on written programming. You know, Fox at that point, if you remember, was very like an American Idol — Mhmm. — had a lot of reality shows.

They weren’t as dependent on unscripted material. And you know, you have to have all those companies agree together on what these deals should be. So I would hear a lot that and and would see things in the room that maybe believe that, hey, these companies don’t necessarily agree. They can’t agree amongst themselves. And that was one of the things that I think was was a primary driver to the strike happening.

You had a couple companies that wanted to invite a strike. So that that is my perspective as someone from the inside. I’m I’m sure that you could talk to someone else on the other side that would offer a different perspective. But that was my perspective from the entire that was our approach from the writers’ guild that that that that our content was about to gravitate towards the Internet we saw it coming, we knew it was coming, we knew it was the future, and it was important to secure our future on the Internet. And I think history has proven us right.

Yeah. I mean, it it really is crazy to look back at two thousand seven and two thousand eight and think about the things that we don’t have or or we’re kind of just on the horizon. Right? I mean, at the time you have iTunes, you know, publishing single episodes or seasons, you can pay per per per stream basically or per per download. Netflix streaming existed kind of, but in a very modest form without, you know, it was pre house of cards and all that.

It’s still primarily a DVD by mail company. And Hulu, I think, debuted either during the writer’s writer, like, right after the week. Right?

I believe it was weeks after the strike had I think it was clearly something that was in motion that they were waiting to see with this group. So imagine world in which we chose not to strike to get that. And then suddenly, the companies, which was, at that point, was a cooperative effort, I think, between three networks. To start airing all the repeats and yeah. They they had that in their quiver, and they waited till the negotiation was over.

To launch that. I I I think if they had made a deal with us in November, you would have seen Hulu Premier in December —

Mhmm. —

because they made a deal with us in February two thousand eight, it premiered slightly afterwards. I I I have a hard time believing that that’s a coincidence. Yeah.

Yeah. And and let’s can we can you explain to to listen who are not in the business. The difference between residuals for, you know, a repeat that errors on broadcast versus how it works in streaming. Because this is whenever I talk to writers or agents and managers, the thing that they constantly hit on with me is, look, we can make a living on on money that we get from repeats on broadcast. We cannot make a living on something that streams in perpetuity that we’re getting a thousand dollar check every twelve months for or whatever.

It it it the economics of it doesn’t seem to have, like, shifted pretty strongly toward the studios and north.

Yeah. Listen, I I I think there is something that that writers do have to acknowledge, and that is is that thirty, forty years ago, there were fewer shows being made and fewer repeats, and those repeats generated bigger numbers. So let me give you an example. My very first show was on Nash Bridges. I got engaged to my current wife.

We’re heading towards our twenty fifth wedding anniversary this spring. English. Thank you. You know, once again, the spelling of the notion that Hollywood marriages don’t last. I wrote an episode of Nash Bridges, back then.

And this will sound like a lot of money and it was. You have to keep in mind though that I, you know, I moved here to try to be a TV writer tonight nineteen ninety, and I got my first staff job in May of nineteen ninety seven. And I was living off like eleven thousand dollars a year tutoring math to, you know, to have a but essentially, you’d make about thirty thousand dollars an episode to write an an episode of TV. When an episode was repeated, I would get a check for about sixteen thousand dollars. You know, so at episode my very first episode aired on Halloween night nineteen ninety seven, and then let’s say sometime in March.

They repeated that episode. You know, the repeats would get a fairly decent number for the network, not as high as as for a new episode. And and generally writers, actors, and directors would all get residuals for the repeats. My wife and I got married and we paid for our wedding and honeymoon from a residual check. Our our honeymoon and and wedding cost about sixteen thousand dollars back in nineteen ninety eight.

And and we were able to pay for that. When things are repeated now, and, you know, now I’m testing my memory because it’s been a long time since since I heard the formulas. But basically, there’s a period of time under which these show stream that residuals aren’t due because you’re not doing one specific area and you’re making a show available for people to watch when they wanna watch it. But there’s a formula now for after a certain amount of time, some residual checks come in, but they they are far less than than than what writers have made in in in the past. I’m gonna say, Joel’s.

In in in some part, I understand because there are fewer viewers for each individual episode b watch. But I but I don’t think we have the formula that that we deserve for that. When you think about not only the revenue that these companies are generating, but their value the value of Disney plus and HBO Max and Netflix and all these things despite kind

of

current headwinds they’re they’re facing. If you look back over the last three, four, five you know, ten years in Netflix’s case, they they’ve generated extraordinary value. There’s talk about how the tech industry has come into Hollywood. And so the thing I like to compare it to is we are inventors Don’t think of us as writers. Think of us as inventors.

We are inventing products that these tech companies are using to to build multibillion dollar businesses upon, for whom those businesses would exist without the work. That writers do. And that’s not just creators of programs like myself that includes all the writers and staff who are who are inventing the episodes that people watch. When I watch a show like Shark Tank, I I see inventors of products retaining huge percentages of those companies. Write writers don’t own huge percentages of these companies.

We you know, our time and sweat is invested in making these shows. And and and we just have too many writers now And again, I’m not the prime example. I’m I’m doing fine. Right? The the people at the top of the pyramid, the, you know, the top end creators who have the cloud to negotiate Visa contracts, Ken.

What the writer’s guild concerns itself, we negotiate what is called an MBA, which stands for minimum basic agreement. We don’t negotiate what the maximums of riders can make. We negotiate what the base for is gonna be. And too many younger writers, too many middle class writers are getting crunched in in today’s today’s business and the bottoming out of these residuals is one reason why.

From your perspective, as a guy who has worked on, again, shows on different, you know, kinds of networks. You broadcast cable. Yes. The streamer, what is what are what are the differences in the writer’s rooms for you for these? I mean, I I I another thing I hear sometimes is that the the streamers smaller writing writers rooms, you know, they have these mini rooms, they don’t they don’t, you know, allow people to kind of move up the ladder, like, like folks used to on network shows or or cable shows.

What what is that like from from your from your POV?

Well, I don’t think that there was anything pernacious intended by the companies in the way that the business has evolved for them, but I do think there are a lot of pad things that have happened. So traditionally, when broadcast television dominated, there was a very set hiring period that if you worked at a TV show, you were probably doing twenty two to twenty episodes a year, depending if it was a drama or a comedy. You would be hired. The upfronts would happen in in early to mid May. The upfront speeding when it’s announced which shows are picked up for the following fall season.

If you were already on a show and then that show was coming back and and you knew that they wanted you back, you probably had an option that brought you back. But essentially, people would work for ten months from May until late March, maybe early April. To make these twenty two to twenty six episodes of TV, you would get paid an episodic fee number of hours per episodes produced. That work would usually be done over forty five weeks, let’s call it. You’d kind of have an imposed vacation for a month and a half or two from the end of the season.

Until the next season began. If if you weren’t retained on your show or if the show that you were on was canceled, you would know that, okay, this is the time of year that that I’m gonna go out and interview for a job. And this was a very very decent to good living for a lot of writers as they should have been considering that they would create the TV shows that, you know, that propped up these networks. The big the big change that has come from the streaming age is that they are making fewer episodes of television and are taking way longer to make those episodes of television, but often still wanna pay an episodic fee for writer services, which which if if you understand math as I did as a former math student, what you’re really asking for is more time for the same money, which means that your time is less valuable than it was before. These programs are just as valuable to the companies that order them, but I I’ve talked to writers on the high end show runners who were paid an episodic fee to make eight, ten episodes, and it took them a year and a half, took them twenty months to make.

And when they did the math, they realized that they were essentially making story editor money, which to your listeners who don’t understand, that’s a title for for some lower level writers. And so it’s been a way to diminish the value of writer’s time. There are some agents and a lot of writers now are trying to do deals that pay by the week rather than the episode. And so that’s sort of improving things. But for lower level writers, when you’re staffed on a show, you’re no longer staffed from May till till March, you might be doing a ten week mini room.

They oftentimes are smaller. Now there are a lot more shows than there used to be. So I do want to acknowledge that there are more employment opportunities that exist. And more writers are employed, but too many of those writers aren’t being copied stated properly for their work and and are finding the impossible to live in Los Angeles, which is a very expensive town. And essentially to make their year, to to to make their living.

So you have these thirteen week mini rooms, these twenty week mini rims. You have a lot of writers doing work and here’s something that I think hurts all parties all the way down to the viewers. Because it because it means the content is isn’t as good. There used to be a tradition of writer’s workout shows and really learning to produce their own epic shows, which means that they were on staff as their show was being filmed. A lot of times writers would go to producer episodes to see how things are filmed.

They could be around you know, while while the staff was writing episode fifteen, episode ten was being edited, episode sixteen was being prep, episode fourteen was being cast and writers would see this process and and most show writers would allow the writers to participated that process. And so you had writers learning essentially how to produce television. How not just to write down the page, but how to bring those words from the page to life on screen. Now what is happening is that a lot of writers are doing their work They’re being sent away. They’re no longer involved in production.

That’s all following falling on the show runners. It’s too much work for one person to do. It’s affecting the quality of these shows, and you’re not building up and training in the next generation of show runners. And that’s going to lead to a lot of flawed productions, which is gonna lose money for the companies, is going to lead to people not being prepared. They might be great writers, but they’re they’re not being prepared to run these shows.

There are ways around that a little bit. I was able to thank you for plugging my new show of the night agent, premiering in March, and Netflix. I was very early in the process because I was aware of this trend, able early on to get money in the budget for for at least some of the writers on the show to be able to continue on past the end of writing to producer episodes because I think it’s so important. But but what you are seeing is less episodes being made over more time in a way that is unfairly straining the pocketbooks of writers and causing them to kind of have to constantly hop from job to job. That you suddenly have to well, now I have to be a staff of three different writer rooms in the course of one year to do it.

Now some people some civics or or people who disagree with me might counter with, hey, well, they’re getting paid for the the work they’re doing. If they’re only working for fifteen or twenty weeks, then that’s where they should get paid. But Okay. That’s fair you know, I understand that perspective, but you’re trying to develop a professional class of writers that are available to make all this programming that that these streamers and these networks want. And if there isn’t a system in place for them to survive, the phthalo times when when a room isn’t going.

I’m not talking about, hey, these people have to make billions of dollars. I’m talking about people literally making a living affording to house their families. This is becoming harder and harder and harder for the middle class of WJ members to do. And it and and it’s all because the companies have chosen to change the business model in a way that helps their stock prices, but doesn’t help the people inventing the product that their business is based on. Yeah.

I I wouldn’t have drilled down on this just a little bit because I I I really think it’s it’s it’s one of the the the more interesting complaints from when when I hear about it because it is a it it making TV shows really is a craft. I mean, people have to understand how a set runs, how you get from point a to point b, you know, how you get into the

It’s like an apprentice ship. It’s an apprentice ship in many ways.

Well, could you could you just explain a little bit of what what writers learn when they move out of the writers’ room and onto the sets and into to the production area just like what they see and how they

can kind of help their careers? Sure. You you moved from the theoretical to the practical. And this process was so important to me that there was an afternoon that that I essentially wrote the seven or eight page document that I now share with my writers called producing your episode. And it just lays out point by point what I want them to do in in prep prep stands for the preparation, all the work we do before it shows our shooting, has to do with production when a show is shooting.

And then post production after the show has done shooting, but but we’re we’re editing and adding sound and and color and music and all that. So it’s one thing to write a script and in one sentence, say, The German army decimates the Russian army. Right? That’s a very easy sentence to write. What does that actually mean on screen?

Well, writers, when they’re actually in the business of producer episodes, will go and start talking to the costume designers. Well, you know, what year is this exactly? What kind of uniforms? Are these the best trained soldiers from the German Army? Are these peasants on the Russian side who’ve, you know, you’re talking to the extras casting, you know, have these people eaten properly?

Or are they all kind of you know, thin and worn out from war. You you go go and talk to the props people. What kind of weapons, you know, do we want these, you know, people, you’re gonna talk to locations, you know, is one army uphill, the other downhill? Are you looking for some sort of strategic advantage you know, in the in the picture. You’re gonna be talking with your director who’s gonna have an idea of how they wanna film it, but they’re gonna have questions.

Well, is there one soldier in particular that we wanna be focusing on? You know, all these conversations, they take weeks, they take planning, and and you are educating the the the key people in your departments to do all the right work so that the scene comes off flawlessly, hopefully. That’s producing. That’s working with your production team to make sure that what is on the page is going to come to life in in the best possible way. It also has to do with actor relations.

Your lead actor has a question on the day about, you know, Am I thinking about, you know, my wife back home? Who’s pregnant? You know? And and so am I afraid of dying here? Or is my, you know, patriotism just you know, so tremendous that that that I’m boggling that, you know, I I I I wanna understand the motivation as I’m making this this charge that could lead to my death.

Right? That’s that’s producing your episode in a way that that that that makes something that may be well written, makes it well filmed. And it’s an extraordinarily underrated part of the process again in my opinion. These are just opinions I’ve developed over the last twenty six years of working in television. But I’ve worked on shows Listen, I’ll just say, I think Nash Bridges was one.

We had an extraordinary group of writers on that show. If you look go and look back and see what’s on that show. I left the show. Glen misair was on that show. Dave Melendaloff was on that show after Glenn and I left.

Like like, really extraordinary writers In many ways, I don’t think the production of the show lived up sometimes to the writing. I think on a show like the shield, I I was very proud of our scripts. I felt production and the performances exceeded the quality of the scripts. In large part, because the writers were so involved in the production and and in the prep. So it’s come to be something I I truly believe in.

And and it’s something that that in this new business, model that the companies have decided to pursue, where writers hey. We’re gonna get these scripts out of these writers, and then the writers can all disappear And we believe that these shows are magically gonna be made to their maximum effect. I I just think isn’t I think it’s short sighted, and I think it’s a reason why with all these five hundred plus shows you see on TV, so many of them don’t seem to live up to their potential.

Do you Without I I don’t want I’m not asking for you to name any Pacific, you know, the shows that could go. But do you think there is there is kind of too much TV right now? I I there is so much. I mean, I literally I I joked on on Twitter the other day, but there’s a show with Brian Cranston and Michael Stulberg, two of my favorite actors on Showtime that I just saw an ad for for the first time this weekend watching football games, and it’s in its second season. And I’m like, how I’m professionally paid to do this sort of thing?

How do I not know that this exists? I mean, I I it is there is a a vast waste not a vast waste lane. A vast wealth and there’s too much it feels like sometimes.

Well, you’re not even including the international shows. So starting to appear because I think a lot of other countries are getting better at making TV. I think we had — Yep. — you know, excluding maybe the UK, we had a near monopolistic lock on quality television for decades. And and and now you’re seeing a lot of countries really up their up their game in that regard.

I don’t know what the proper number is. It seems like a lot. I like you will hear, oh, this show is great. And just in the back of my head, going well, I’ve been told that there are ten shows that are great, and I certainly don’t have time to to watch them all.

I,

you know, I was talking recently with Carlton Hughes, my original boss of Nash Brothers, he and John Ridley made a pretty extraordinary limited series for Apple called five days at Memorial and and you know, I I don’t know how much was publicized. I didn’t see much. And I don’t know how many people watched it, and it certainly was something that that deserves to be watched. So I think there is you know, I just got done saying that that maybe some of these productions aren’t living up to the potential. I think the inverse of that is I think there are a lot of really great shows that because of the glut of what’s on aren’t getting the viewership that they probably deserve.

So I don’t know what the right number is. I would not be surprised if there is a contraction. Coming in some ways, which which would be painful for a lot of craftsman, like writers, directors, and actors. If there’s less work, But maybe that’s going to be what’s required for for the economics to make more sense for the shows that survive. Again, I want the companies to succeed.

You know, you may be listening to me and say, well, Sean Ray hates these companies. I don’t. You know, I’m I’m a loyal employee of of Sony Pictures Television. They’re great. They treat me well.

I’ve I’ve a show on CBS, an upcoming show on on Netflix. And I want nothing more than for these companies to succeed. They will have to be the ones, you know, to decide what the proper number of TV shows is for their businesses to maximize their profits. All I’m saying is that when their profits are maximized, as they have been, you know, over the years, you know, they’ve made I I looked up the number here. Because knowing that we could do it and now I need to find it.

Now I can’t find it. But it’s you know, almost, I think, a trillion dollars in profits this century of the studio. It’s not quite. I don’t wanna overstate it, but and I have a number now I can’t find it. But hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of billions of dollars of profits, we want them to be profitable and we want to have our fair share of those profits as writers.

Howard Bauchner: I think that is only fair. One last thing that you mentioned that I I is another thing I do here from writers and others. The lack of metrics, you know, you mentioned, you know, it’s hard to say who’s watching who’s watching what? You know, how many people are are really talking about this? It’s frustrating for me as a critic because I like to I like to know kind of what the the zitegeist is.

Right? What what folks are watching? And it but it is it is a big sea change in how how it has worked. I mean, you know, working at Nash Bridges, you knew what the ratings were. You knew what the demo was.

Yeah. You knew, you know, you had pretty good breakdowns from Nielsen. Moving to your new show on Netflix, you know, the amount of information you’re going to get will be less. And I’m I’m curious what you make of kind of how that changes, how you how you do things and just, you know, the level of frustration or maybe it takes a burden off your shoulders if it if it doesn’t doesn’t matter as much.

Right. Real quick, I found a number of the the major studios made about a half one half trillion dollars in profits over the last twenty plus years or so. Listen, there’s part of you that’s glad that you don’t live and die by the overnight ratings. I’ve had shows that were successful that that you’d look forward to seeing the ratings. You know, SWAT right now and CBS is doing pretty well consistently in the ratings.

And so Saturday morning after Friday airing, hey, what are the raids? I’ve also, you know, created or worked on shows where you’re dreading. The ratings come in. You’re in week, you know, you’re in week eight terriers that you mentioned before. It was a show I’m very proud of that that really had minuscule viewership.

You know, just pretty much nobody, you know, it it you kinda it felt it felt like that Lou Reed example that that they talked about only fifty thousand people bought Lou Reed albums, but they all created their own bands. I I may have put you in that quote, but it it feels like only fifty thousand people watch terriers, but but they all somehow work in the industry. And and mention it to me. I don’t know how long these companies can go withholding this information, once again, we’re seeing a tech mindset come into it. But when a company like Netflix starts having the ad supported tier, which they started in November, I have to imagine that they’re going to be sharing some data with I can’t imagine that Colgate Toothpaste is going to put ads and not be told how many people are watching those ads.

So

I I I do think that secrecy has been used to probably hide some information that and now I’m not just talking about Netflix. I’m just talking about all these companies. I I think it’s probably been used to kind of hide some low viewership, and then I think it’s probably been used to underpay people on their most successful shows. Mhmm. So it’s it’s probably internally a good business model, but I I I don’t know how much longer it can go on the way that the the business is is changing.

I I probably when, you know, when the night agent premieres in March, we’ll probably be very very curious, you know. Are people watching it? You know, Are you happy with how many people are watching it? Do you have a sense of where people are watching it in North America versus South America versus Europe? And I don’t know how much information they’ll they’ll give to me about that.

And I imagine that that that will be a little frustrating, but but you kind of know what you’re signing up for when you when you sign up to do an Netflix series, you you you know that they have the biggest reach in the world. You you know that they’re very successful watching shows. You’ve, you know, both existing shows like Stranger Things or Wednesday, which has done very well. So you you know that there’s an opportunity there that that may not exist yet some of the other streamers to to really kind of hit a home run with a mass audience. And so I guess that’s just the deal you make with yourself that they’re going to you know, they’re going to keep a lot of that information to yourself and and and maybe you’ll make a second season and maybe you won’t.

I can’t say that it’s ideal, but that’s what it is. Yeah.

I always like to close the show by asking if there’s anything I should’ve You think there’s anything folks

That’s so funny. I ask that question and interviews with people. I say, what should I what should I have asked you that I didn’t ask you. And and oftentimes, I get the best answers and interviews from people.

See, I’m turning turning the tables on you. What what should I ask? What what should folks know about either WGA negotiations, anything.

Yeah. I I think important thing to understand is all this strike talk. I think I think the most generous way to describe it is is unnecessary. I I I think I think the most accurate way to describe it is preemptive propaganda. I was at dinner with an actor and a studio executive last week.

The writer looked at I’m sorry. The actor looked at me and say, why are the writers gonna strike, Sean? I was like, well, what what writer has told you that we’re gonna strike? Well, no writers have said, by Bria, I said, I said, we haven’t even made an offer to the studio. We, as we, the writer of the skill, the studio, hasn’t even made an offer to us.

So the writer’s skill is a demigram democratically elected institution that is going to engage with its members they’re gonna put forward some proposals. They’re gonna share those proposals with with members. They’re gonna get feedback from members, and then we’ll present those proposals to the companies. The the companies are not a democratically elected institution. They’re they’re a a a group of of very powerful corporations that may or may not have already decided what their strategy for these negotiations is going to be What I do know is that every negotiation, they try very hard to paint the writers as crazy strike happy people so that if they give us a substandard offer that we don’t take and there is a work stoppage, it’s easy to blame us.

The writers. So when you hear all this strike talk, what that tells me is that people at these companies believe that they’re not going to make a fair offer to writers. And and that they’re expecting a strike by hoping to blame it on us. I don’t know any writer who welcomes a strike. I don’t know any writer.

You know, we spent a lot of our time looking for work, trying to find work. So the idea that that we’re that that that we en masse, just for the sake of of some cause, want to be on strike is complete and accurate. So I guess the question you should have asked is why is there all this strike talk and where is it coming from? It’s not coming from writers. There are a lot of things that that we would like to adjust I believe in the upcoming negotiations.

I say that as someone currently on the outside. I was on the inside before. I’m on the outside now. I’m looking forward to engaging with as a member with the negotiating committee and finding out what’s fight you know, what’s worth fighting for. But all the strike talk right now is not coming from the writers.

It’s not coming from the writers’ guild. It’s coming from the studios who If they were to make a fair offer, there won’t be a strike. Now, obviously, the dispute comes in, what is a fair offer? And this is what negotiations are all about. But if the companies are taking the position that there’s going to be a strike, to me, that means We don’t have no intention of making a fair offer.

I don’t know if that’s true or not, but but why all the strike talk before negotiations have even begun? They’re not coming from writers. They’re not coming from the writers’ guild. I encourage you to find one statement from Meredith Steam, the president the WGA or David Young, the Executive Director talking about how writers are intending to go on strike. It’s just not happening.

We hope that there is a fair and respectful negotiation that reflects the true value of the work that writers, the inventors of the product that makes billions of dollars

for

these companies that reflects our value. I feel like writers have been undervalued by these in the past. And there are some things as this as this business model has changed. It needs to be rectified. And and if the company sit down and with sit down in good faith and try to hammer out a fair deal for both sides.

I know the writers well. Because I was part of that team that for the last five negotiations tried to hammer out a fair deal for both sides. So so I hope there is no strike. I hope the company’s understand the true value of writers. And I I hope the business is successful and healthy and and can profit all from from the studios.

To the actors, various directors who make it, to the crew members who work so hard on the show, down to the consumers who love the shows. I hope it’s a win win for everyone.

And on that note, we’ll sign off. Thank you, mister Ryan, for being on the show. I really appreciate it. I might one of these things I’m gonna get you back on, we’re gonna talk to Shield. I love one of my all time favorites.

It’s great.

I never I never get tired of talking about it. It’s it’s hard when you when you make your legacy show in your thirties and you know it’s gonna be the lead in your obituary, but you kinda you kinda say, you know what, proud of the show. Happy to talk about whenever anyone wants to.

My name is Sunny Bunch, and I’m culture editor at the Bulwark. We’ll be back next week with another episode of the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. See you guys then.

You love La la Kent on Vanderbilt Pomp rules. Now get to know her on give them La la. With

her assistant, Jess.

LA? It can become suffocating. Did something happen where you felt like I have to get out of here? Or do you just think it just happens sometimes think it just happens, but also just everything going on in my personal life. Like, I wanna get on this mic and be like, this is what I’ve been dealing with for fourteen months.

Give them la la wherever you listen.