Support The Bulwark and subscribe today.
  Join Now

S4 Ep9: American Jews Are Nervous (with Bill Kristol)

November 18, 2023
Notes
Transcript
It’s been difficult to be Jewish in America since October 7, so we’re listening to how Jewish voters are processing this moment, and how all Americans are reacting. Bill Kristol joins Sarah to break it all down.
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:06

    Hello everyone. And welcome to the Focus Group podcast. I’m Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. And this week, we’re gonna talk about another tough issue just last week, we did abortion, but I wanna talk about the horrible situation in the Middle East and how is reverberating here in America. I’ve avoided talking about this in the show since October seventh because I didn’t wanna jump right into the political implications of such a large scale tragedy.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:34

    But we’ve learned a lot in recent weeks about how the situation is making Americans, particularly Jewish Americans feel both about their fellow Americans and about America’s role in the world. We thought it would make sense to talk to a group of Jewish American voters who voted for Donald Trump twice. In both twenty sixteen and twenty twenty, I was super interested in how they were thinking about the job that Biden was doing. And my guest today is my great friend and notable Jew Bill Crystal. Bill, thanks for being here.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:09

    No. I like being introduced as a notable Jew. It’s unusual for me, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:12

    Remember when somebody called you a renegade Jew? It was like the federalist or something that was there.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:18

    That’s fine. Notable renegade, whatever, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:21

    Yeah. Yeah. So What do you think’s going on in the country right now regarding Israel? And what do you think just our political discourse is missing?
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:30

    I mean, the country’s pretty pro Israel in the current crisis. So far as I can tell, the bid administration has been very supportive of Israel. People can quibble about this or that, but I was thinking about this. I’m not sure it’s not the most supportive of Israel of any administration in a comparable crisis. Linda Johnson sixty seven did not really help.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:48

    Nixon in seventy three hasn’t stated before sending arms. AB two, there was great pressure on Israel to pull out of Lebanon after the deaths there. Again, I’m not saying whether it was right or wrong, but I just think actually, analytically, by administration, it’s from strongly pro Israel. The Republican Party is even more strongly pro Israel, though at a pretty un nuanced and sometimes slightly odd way, but still So empirically, analytically, you’d have to say the United States, people who are probably still should be pleased with the current situation in the US. On the other hand, Jews in the US and people who are from Israel who are Jews are unnerved by the current situation in the US, and I think we’ll see this some on the focus group.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:26

    Because of, the anti semitism on campuses, other expressions of it and some other spheres. It’s just solely a rather small number, you know, in terms of percentages, but it’s still a lot of people of these marches and demonstrations. And then I do think people feel I feel this myself a little bit maybe for the first time in my adult life that you know, there’s more actual anti Semitism, tolerance of anti Semitism, defense of anti Semitism in our big cities at least in our prestigious college campuses. It’s one thing to sort of think that well, maybe be out in middle of America. They never met many Jews, and they probably think, you know, they’re crazy about Jews.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:03

    That’s like, okay. That’s been the case for hundreds of thousands of years in a lot of the world, but but they’re not going around doing anything much about it, and maybe not letting people into country clubs or something. But to see the kinds of statements that have come out of faculty at elite colleges, the kinds of demonstrations in major cities, that’s where Jews live and what they sort of aspire to, you might say, that’s unnerving, I think, for people.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:25

    Yeah. Well, these Jewish Trump voters that we talk to when we asked just right at the start of the group as we always do how they think things are going in the country, and this is what they said right off the top.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:39

    My wife is Israeli. So first couple weeks, she was crying her eyes out for her family. I’m seeing is Randy flags being burned and people being beat treat for having friendly flags in sport just totally disgusted at what our country has become.
  • Speaker 4
    0:03:59

    Very distressed about what’s going on in Israel. I had a child there a month ago, and he was supposed to start college. And we made a very painful decision to bring him home because his school wasn’t opening. So, basically, his whole life is on hold. Anyway, that’s just personal.
  • Speaker 4
    0:04:16

    But, I think, yeah, the country is in a lot of trouble in many different ways, like, in terms of inflation and the cost of things and crime and gun control and internationally. I think there’s so many issues. I wouldn’t even know where to start
  • Speaker 5
    0:04:31

    I’m glad your son is home and safe. We are all to say the least. We are all concerned about everybody there and here more importantly. My concern for the was already held in a hand basket before. But given this administration and what’s happening in Israel and all over the mid east, We’ve got the wrong leader at the wrong time at the helm, and that scares me now more than ever.
  • Speaker 6
    0:04:56

    Oral, this is the worst administration in the country’s history. It’s taking us all down the path of demise. Every aspect I mean, nobody even mentioned the illegal aliens that are coming in.
  • Speaker 4
    0:05:11

    I’m really glad that we seem to be a like minded bunch because I was a little afraid of joining a political group
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:17

    So, obviously, we screened this group for Jews who were specifically Republican and Trump voters And so this is, like, a very narrow slice. But the reason I wanted to talk to this group is I was interested in whether or not they thought Biden was doing a good job on Israel and also just hearing how they sort of felt politically. But one thing I’m interested in, because we’re gonna listen to sound later about them specifically talking about how Biden handled things. But I’m right in saying that a majority of Jews are Democrats. Correct?
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:46

    Right. I mean, Jews voted maybe twenty five percent for Trump. In nine twenty twenty. So you’re getting a slice of American Jews, but only a not a huge slice. So, yeah, so we should keep that in mind.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:57

    On the other hand, it’s you know, a quarter is not nothing. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:00

    But tell me as somebody who’s been a conservative your whole life and also just like, what is the Jewish conservative, like Republican community look like. And how do they fit, with sort of the rest of the Jewish community Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:13

    So ask someone who has a conservative is a Jew and was a Republican. I guess maybe still sort of conservative. Yeah. I mean Jewish Republicans were typically more religious among Orthodox Jews that was, more inclination to vote for Republicans. They were less put off by the Republican views on social issues, which were a huge problem for liberal or even, I’d say mainstream Jews, but orthodox Jews are much more conservative about a lot of these social issues.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:36

    I care a lot about religious freedom where scared that they’re gonna be forced to do things in their synagogues or schools that they don’t approve of, by progressive courts and so forth. Then we’re worried about the anti Israel element on the left and in the Democratic party, which is real. I think pretty small in the Democratic party, larger, obviously, on the campus left. So, obviously, they’ve been reinforced in those alarms. I don’t think it would be fair to say in the democratic party, but certainly on the the left more broadly, since the attack on October seventh.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:04

    I mean, I do think it’s also worth just bringing out the brutality of that attack to people who knew people in Israel. I mean, it was shocking in a way that other a lot of terrible things that happened over the last, decades, terrorism and and wars with Israel. But this was almost unique and and sort of just the state of brutality. The fact that it was an israel proper and assault on civilians at a music festival and on peaceful kibbutzes in Southern Israel. So I think that was just shocking.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:31

    If you knew anyone in Israel, your first thought was what did anyone was people I know were they there, were their kids there, were kids friends there. And it’s really such a small country that by the time you get to friends and friends, kids, and kids friends, you often met someone who at least could have been in bill danger or who’s now been mobilized certainly to fight. That’s the other thing. I mean, Israel’s mobilized. I think three hundred and fifty thousand people.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:51

    That’s, you know, twenty percent of the workforce. Huge percentage of the population. I think it would be eleven, twelve, thirteen million people here. Think of that, you know, because if one of five people in in our office since our office is kinda young, I would say even more immobilized. Not if one of them is fighting Gaza.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:07

    Obviously, there are different places and have different jobs, but it’s personal there. And then if people know people in Israel, you know someone whose kid is mobilized. So I think for the American Jewish community, for the pro Israel part of it, for the Israel connected part it, which probably is just little disproportionately republican these days. It wasn’t always the case. This thing has been brought home in a very big way.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:27

    And then the fact that, as I say, on campuses, I was just talking to someone from LA. There’s just some kind of riot outside the museum of tolerance where there was a I don’t know, some movie that was because
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:37

    It was Gal Gadot who plays, she’s the wonder woman actress, and so she was playing the footage of some of the attack from Hamas because, you know, there’s this thing right now right where people are denying that it happened. And so there’s actual footage of it And so there’s this movement to, like, make people watch it so that they know how real it was. And so she was doing that and it went to a we have protests, a counter protest outside.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:01

    Many, many American Jews in the New York area. Second largest, I think, is the LA area. And those have both been also a big areas for some anti racial groups and for progressives and college campuses. Again, it’s not evenly dispersed. I talked to someone who’s teachers at a big state school in the mid he’s seen nothing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:16

    He’s seen a demonstration on his campus. So fifteen people against Israel and forty people pro Israel. And it’s not being discussed, of course, he can tell in classrooms or dorms, very different at Columbia or at UCLA, but those are where, again, American Jews, kids go, and that’s the local news coverage for for many, many American Jews.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:35

    Yeah. And you heard right off the top there, one of the guys say, like, my wife’s Israeli. Like, I do think that is, like, what strikes me when I talk to friends of mine who are Jewish is, like, a, how many people have been there? I’ll tell you one of the hardest things for me when I try to understand, what’s happening in Israel is that I just don’t have a sense of the geography. Whereas when you talk to Jews in America, like, lots of them have been there and know exactly what Gaza looks like, you must have been to Israel a lot of times.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:02

    Right? So, like, do you have a picture in your head of, like, where all these things are?
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:07

    Yes. And although I’ve not been to those. Give us some that were attacked, but main thing to say for Americans is it is a very small country. I think it’s the size of New Jersey or something. I’m not sure, Virginia.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:17

    You know, it’s something like And so once you go there, you do realize that much more concretely. It’s not as if you visit America and you go to New York, you have no idea what’s going on in Missouri in Israel. Close enough that you sort of get a sense of of how swallow country it is and how much people are at risk. And then if there are rockets sitting Tel Aviv, then, of course, if there’s an attack, across the border in the south, it’s you’ll know people who have lived there or visited there, certainly.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:40

    Yeah. There have been reports that in the first two weeks, since the ten seven tax anti Semitic incidents in the US are up three hundred and eighty eight percent over the same time period in twenty twenty two. According to the anti defamation league. We also saw a horrible story in Thousand Oaks, California, of a Jewish man who was hit in the head with a megaphone at a protest and died of his injuries. We don’t know yet if that was, like, on purpose, like, a hate crime.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:03

    But a Cornell student was arrested for making threats against Jewish students there and around the country, Jewish schools and other institutions. Have closed because of the threats of violence. And we heard in this group a real elevated fear of being Jewish in public from the voters we talked to. Let’s listen.
  • Speaker 3
    0:11:19

    Actually talking about going to Florida, moving to Texas, moving to a different state that not so liberal. The liberal’s invasion of California. Like, I’m afraid to talk to people at work, honestly. Like, I didn’t really talk that much before, but I mean, I keep so to myself right now that it’s mind boggling that, like, I don’t wanna even assert any kind of random statement that might cause someone to go ballistic.
  • Speaker 5
    0:11:53

    My husband recently got a little sticker to put on his window that has it’s a diagonal One half has the United States flag, and one has the Israeli flag, and he put it on his car window, and he got another one. And I said, I’m not putting it on my window. No way. I’m in Arizona. We’re a little bit nuts down here.
  • Speaker 5
    0:12:11

    I don’t know who is going to have what twisted mentality that might react to it. And we’re flying to New York City for Christmas. I’m really afraid to get on a plane out of Phoenix into JFK and that.
  • Speaker 4
    0:12:25

    My husband is a stereotypical Jewish doctor, and he works in Baltimore. And he told me this past week that two doctors We’re in a lounge and they’re Middle Eastern, and we’ll just leave it at that. They’re friends, you know, they’re colleagues. And he said it was the first time ever that the two Middle East doctors were speaking to each other in Arabic, clearly not wanting other people to understand what they were saying, and that was scary for him.
  • Speaker 5
    0:12:54

    What scares me is, and we all understand this, that the Holocaust didn’t happen on the day one. There were many years before that things were happening that led up to it. And this is the type of things that we’re seeing today, and that’s nerve shattering.
  • Speaker 4
    0:13:09

    And nobody is speaking up.
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:12

    So I think what’s difficult to understand sort of as an American is for me watching the way that it like, it has translated into things here. Right? So we’re this, like, pluralistic society. And everybody works together and is part of this smelting pot community Is this a new phenomenon where then suddenly those divisions over there come over here and make people feel distrustful of each other is that new or is that kind of always how it’s been?
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:35

    I think it’s new that people feel in the modern era in America, which has been the promised land. And where Jews have done a fantastically well and owe a huge amount to America that have not typically felt threatened and for all the talk of and they were realizing of anti semitic incidents and threats over the years, like Jewish history standards or even honestly by the standards of other American minority groups. Obviously blacks goes without saying, but two of other groups too, it’s been pretty minor. And I think I’m struck talking to people for the first time and that this is very much captured in the focus group. Friends, I know who have kids in college campus, They’re not just annoyed that the people should be more pro Israel or or, you know, worried about the voting patterns in the next election or worried about American foreign policy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:16

    That’s typically been the worry. Know, as the administration got about of international pressure or in the old days to the oil pressure from the Arab States and not be for Israel enough. That’s kind of what people talked about. I remember this vividly and high school and college Ron DeSantis seven and seventy three. And then once it came to Washington, it was much more concerned about Will Saletan be pro Israel enough.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:35

    I do think this is the first time that upper middle class Jewish Americans are genuinely concerned as the people and the folks have said about their own security about their kid’s safety and security or at least feeling comfortable being Jewish or wearing a keypaw off. That’s what they do. We’re putting a someone sent a sticker on a car or on something else. Now you could say they’re exaggerating the fears, you know, that it’s still a very safe place to be a Jew, modern America. And this is and it’s attending Cornell or UCLA or UCLA or flying from Phoenix JFK is a pretty safe thing to do by the standards of the world.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:07

    You can say that, but I am struck just as a factual matter how many people are worried. And and Again, that you can say it’s just discomfort and horribly was killed in LA, but it’s mostly harassment, not murder. Thank god. But people aren’t used to that. And they do worry that, you know, if you’re Jewish, you’re very sensitive to Jewish history.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:25

    And this, someone said, you know, it starts as harassment and escalate. So I do think it’s a different situation in the sense that people really feel the sense of worried about the safety and security. I I know many people who have kids, some of my age have a little older have grandkids in college. And they said the first question is, how’s your kid doing? I mean, does he or she feel secure, safe?
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:44

    Able to volunteer his opinions, go to services, Friday night at the hill out, or is it really bad? And I’ve heard mixed things at different colleges, honestly. But more people are worried about just basic safety security welcoming than I can recall as an adult.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:03

    So I wanna talk about the left a little bit. We heard a lot of fear from these groups about the state of college campuses these days. And the voices that these voters and the groups that they see as promoting anti sanitism. Let’s listen.
  • Speaker 4
    0:16:18

    I think the acceptance of anti Semitism on the college campuses is outrageous. I mean, that’s not even the appropriate word. I don’t even know what the appropriate word is. I have a child in Penn in University of Pennsylvania, and like, their hillel was vandalized even before any of this. No one stands up for them.
  • Speaker 4
    0:16:39

    Like, our kids aren’t supposed to be kept safe. Like, where’s their voice? Know, now it’s happening in Cornell and Columbia and in these Ivy League institutions and their presidents and their administrators are are not speaking out again. Like, This is not in eighteen forty two. We do not live in Germany.
  • Speaker 4
    0:16:56

    It’s like it’s appalling to me that this is going on. It’s terrifying. And it’s not okay. Like, it’s it’s not okay. And if people used to say, well, if I don’t feel safe in this country, I can always go to Israel.
  • Speaker 4
    0:17:09

    Well, Are you safe in Israel now? I don’t think so. Like, where are you safe right now? But I think what’s so surprising to me is the difference in how the country reacts to what’s going on with this versus how the country reacts to what happens or has happened with other minority groups. That is just unbelievably shocking to me.
  • Speaker 4
    0:17:34

    I I was going on a rant about that earlier, but I’m doubling down on that. I think the, hypocrisy is just astounding. The same people that are screaming about lives mattering, you know, well, That’s not true. Clearly, all lives don’t matter to you. It’s just, like, I’m just at a loss for words, and I’m angry, and I’m scared.
  • Speaker 4
    0:17:52

    And I don’t know what to do.
  • Speaker 5
    0:17:54

    What scares me more is the members of the squad that are still allowed to be in a position, spewing the hate and vitriol that they are, and they’re still active members of Congress. And I I don’t understand it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:09

    So I wanna ask you bill about Rashida to leave. So as you mentioned, the squad, she’s from Michigan. She got some blowback from fellow Democrats for posting a video with from the river to the sea. And she sort of defended that. Now only twenty two Democrats voted to censure to leave And so you and I have both become somewhat invested in the Democrats being the responsible party.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:32

    Are you concerned about them at all right now? Or do you think that they are being really responsible in in some of them since you’re age lead? I’m not even sure whether you think since you’re age lead was the right thing to do because It’s an unusual thing to do. But so, like, tell me where you come down on something like this.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:49

    I mean, so the good news is the huge which are already, I mean, really huge which are already in Democrats. Are not where the squad is. The whole squad is not quite where to leave is. She’s a Palestinian American or, I guess, grandmother’s Southern West Bank. And so she you know, I think what she says is totally irresponsible and deplorable.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:06

    I voting to censor. That’s the question. She’s a member of Congress. She’s entitled to have. Bad views and and so you slogans that that imply at least that there’s no issue.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:14

    All that’s what from the river to the sea means that they would be at one state and presumably majority. Stenian state. It might also mean if Hamas becomes the prominent in that state, the slaughter of Jews. So it is something to be very alarms about and to denounce. Now it has been denounced by huge trumpers of her fellow members, Democrats, fellow Democrats in Congress, and elsewhere.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:34

    And so I would still say, yes, the Democratic party is mostly fine, but Republicans have their own problem. And they’re right. God knows with Trump having dinner with the onassis and stuff, and Trump’s kind of a more important figure than Rashida to leave. So I could make a sort of partisan case here that the Republicans have no right to look down on the Democrats, but I think it’s been as pro as real as one could reasonably expect. In fact, being provisional does not mean endorsing every possible thing that a San Yahoo government could do to kill Arabs, which is sort of what the, honestly, what some of these Republican presidential candidates sound like.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:06

    I don’t think genuinely pro ishio. Having said all that, these are trump voters we’re listening to. They’re saying what they sincerely believe. They’re also watching Fox, and I could try to reason and say, look, AOC is elected to Congress. She’s entitled to have her views.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:18

    Her constituent’s nowhere views. People are entitled to fund a primary campaign against her, and there were gonna be primary campaigns against many of these people. And some of them could lose. You know, I hope they do in most cases. But, you know, we do have a democracy, and if there end up being three or four very anti Israel members of Congress who are Democrats, They’re four hundred and thirty five members of the house, you know, and that’s probably just life in in America today.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:42

    But I was struck when when the people in the group say, no one’s standing up for us. I think that’s the more relevant thing politically. Everyone understands when you stop for a minute that, you know, it’s a massive country, three to thirty million people. They can get ten thousand people in a demonstration somewhere, and they can have one or two members of Congress or five or six or eight who are very bad on these issues. Then no one’s standing up for us.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:01

    I was struck by that. And I guess my reaction as well. I don’t know. The Democrats have been fine. I mean, really, maybe it’s correct that as a political matter, you don’t see quite the pushback from Democratic leaders.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:13

    And you certainly don’t see it from university presidents. So that’s what’s so appalling. But the following of me is less that, you know, their students and faculty at Harvard or pro Palestinian and and really anti Israel. And again, I don’t think they should be fired for doing that or or whatever or even personally pillaried for their views, except maybe in a few cases where faculty members really are saying horrible things. But the original letters from the presidents of all these institutions and even the subsequent actions we’re so timid and, lukewarm and, you know, punches being pulled and products of committees.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:45

    And we got no sense of the establishment in these institutions, at least, really standing up for the Jewish students. And, you know, the establishment of these institutions are sort of a Democrats probably. I’m gonna guess that most of these Ivy presidents are Biden supporters. And so it spills over, and the same is true in some other areas of American life too. And it does kind of legitimize or seem to legitimize the complaint, you know, among conservatives that you can’t trust the Democratic party, even if Biden personally is okay, because ultimately, these cultural forces on the left are just going to sweep over the party or or pull the party very much in this direction.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:20

    I don’t think that’s true. I would even make the contrary case that if you think that, you should care a lot about having pro Israel Democrats get stronger. Not weaker. Right? You want John Federman and Abigail Vanberger and Josh Shapiro and others to be more important figures in the Democratic party.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:35

    I mean, I’ll ask how much of this is a Biden question? I mean, honestly, he just isn’t that ot spoken. He’s older. You know, it’s fine. I think he’s done well.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:43

    He’s mostly worrying about what’s happening in the Middle East, which is very important. And a lot more people are getting killed over there than here, you know, and he’s right to worry about what’s gonna happen in the actual war and and how to manage that. But I do feel like his sort of lack of visibility domestically is making that line of attack or of argument more credible than it would otherwise be.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:06

    Yeah. Well, let’s let’s listen. I mean, we talked to these voters and asked them how Biden was handling things. You know, the swing voters don’t tend to, like, much of what they hear from Biden these days, but we do hear some scattered praise from him on this issue. Not from any of the Jewish Republicans that we talk to though in this group, but one of these people is a two time Trump voter who’s a little bit down on Trump.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:28

    So let’s listen.
  • Speaker 5
    0:23:30

    I have to give Biden credit because he did stand up initially and say, yes. We’re behind Israel a hundred percent. I’m glad to hear he said that. I just hope he sticks with that, and he doesn’t waiver because we have people coming in through the borders. We have our own problems here in the US.
  • Speaker 5
    0:23:46

    Is for security. And I just hope he sticks and says he continues to support.
  • Speaker 6
    0:23:52

    I have to be fair. I felt like he was earnest He even said, and I’m gonna try to quote him. He said, you think we aren’t doing anything. We are. I can’t tell you Yeah.
  • Speaker 6
    0:24:06

    So in other words, the man’s not stupid. I think he feels, yes, this is a big issue. And I think he’s doing what he can. I struggle with we’re helping you train. We’re doing this.
  • Speaker 6
    0:24:18

    We’re doing that. But this is a big thing. When I sorted children and the bombing of them killing children and the poor mother got shot up. The the son, I tried. It’s horrendous.
  • Speaker 6
    0:24:30

    I feel like a terrible human being after you say that. No. No. No. Not from that because it’s there are people dying on both sides.
  • Speaker 6
    0:24:37

    So can I
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:38

    ask you about the both sides thing? There’s like an attempted good faith pushback, right, that the left is making where they’re saying, no, what happened in Israel on ten seven is horrific. But Israel can’t just turn around. They would say indiscriminately bomb these Palestinians. Like, what is the right response now?
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:02

    What should is real do?
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:04

    Well, they shouldn’t indiscriminately bomb Palestine. Isn’t they’re I mean, they’re attacking Hamas and Gaza, which is causing a lot of civilian casualties, maybe too many. I mean, that’s really hard to judge from afar. The Biden administration has been pretty clear that they want Israel as much as possible, not to kill civilians in Gaza in the course of going after her boss, but no one really questions that Israel does have the both right and obligation, I’d say, to go after a loss. This notion that it’s they’re just indiscriminate killing Palestine News is that kills their palestinians in the West Bank, their Arab citizens of Israel.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:34

    I mean, they’ve been incidents which are deplorable, and I wish the dissent and Yahoo government got them more under control. Of killing of individual arabs, but, I mean, there’s not massive killing going on. God knows there, and and no one’s proposing it or talking about it. So I think for pro Israel people to get their hackles up every time either someone in America or really, honestly, people in Israel say this too, look, we gotta be careful. We gotta make sure that the means are recorded at the end.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:58

    It’s we can’t simply go in and arrange and bomb Gaza for about without a real military purpose. I don’t think they’re doing that. I think people don’t have great faith in it. So you have a government. There’s some really bad people in it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:09

    So it’s a complicated situation, but I feel like what the Biden administration’s been saying is about right, honestly. I mean, Biden’s trip to issue is pretty amazing, you know, right there near the beginning of the war. To go there was, I’m sure the Secret Podcast was not happy yet. And I’m sure a normal diplomats weren’t happy. I myself having been a government was like, jeez.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:27

    He’s getting awfully close to the situation. Doesn’t he wanna keep a little distance so he can both support Israel, but then at times, say I don’t quite agree with this, but instead he he went and he was ninety eight percent in the race of Israel in that trip. And in fact, there’s been backlash from the less pro israel parts of the Democratic party because of that. What’s amazing to me is how little credit he’s gotten for that, both from Jewish Americans, but in America, in general, which is a pro Israel country, you know, leave aside these trump voters, we’re listening to today, but from swing voters. And this is your expertise, but the degree to which people’s attitude towards Biden is just hardened and they he does something like this, which I would say in a normal circumstances would move some voters.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:05

    People would say, whoa, that’s a little different for what I expected. So maybe you move three percent of the voters. Even Carter got a bump, you know, when people thought for a while, he was handling the Arradi and hostage crisis well and standing up for America and so forth. I feel the fact that Biden got no credit for this at all. It’s not fair.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:20

    It’s not right in my opinion, but doesn’t it say something about how much you know, that forty one percent approval rating for Biden is just stuck. It seems like.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:30

    Or worse than it could go down because here’s I wanted to do this group for a lot of reasons. But one of the main ones is I was like, are Republican Jews, like, forget Republicans. But, like, with Republicans who are Jewish, would they say, man, I’m watching Biden really stand up for Israel to his expense with some section of his voters, these young voters who are saying they’re angry at him and they don’t like how pro Israel he’s been. And so he is clearly taking this principled stand. And when we asked these trump voters who are all Jewish, I want you to listen to what they said.
  • Speaker 7
    0:28:11

    Basically, my opinion is let Israel do what Israel has to do. We need to stay out of them. Okay? Now if we have to protect our assets, that’s one thing. Israel doesn’t need our help to do what they need to do.
  • Speaker 7
    0:28:23

    They have their wonderful military They have the ability. They have their own assets. Let them do what they have to do. Okay? The world hates Israel always has.
  • Speaker 7
    0:28:35

    What difference does it make? They get some bad press. It’s twenty four seven bad press since nineteen forty eight.
  • Speaker 6
    0:28:41

    You got Sullivan, Jay Sullivan, a week before for October seventh. The Middle East has never been better. Never been quieter. And then days later, it blows up. Number one.
  • Speaker 6
    0:28:52

    Number two, You got a situation where just the other day Biden appointed czar harris in charge of a new committee, a new group that’s going to combat hate in America. And what was identified as that Islamophobia. Yes. Antiism is like three hundred and whatever percent greater than it was before October seventh, and it was terrible then. The situation that bothers me also is little talked about.
  • Speaker 6
    0:29:26

    That is a hundred million dollars that Biden is asking for to go to Gaza. The trouble with that is anything that goes over there for, quote, unquote humanitarian effort goes through Hamas. So we’d actually be getting money to Hamas, who are trying to help Israel defeat. So our money’s going both ways. No.
  • Speaker 6
    0:29:49

    We need to put a message out there that any American is harmed in any way, we are going to hit you ten times harder. We’ve got hostages in Hamas and we’re not doing anything. We’ve got Biden and his secretary of state promoting a two state solution. That will be the demise of Israel.
  • Speaker 8
    0:30:11

    I think it was Robert Gates once said that Joe Biden was wrong in every foreign policy decision for forty years. She changed that to at least fifty years. The man is a complete idiot. So there just wasn’t anybody who
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:21

    wanted to
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:22

    give Biden any credit from this group, like, no love whatsoever. So you have taken the position that Joe Biden ought to drop out and not going to relitigate that with you right now. But because I thought that Israel has really been one of his stronger moments, I guess I’m just surprised that it looks like he’s not gonna get any credit for this and that actually him doing the right thing here is gonna be a net negative for him politically.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:52

    And look, some of these criticisms are legitimate. I think around the edge of Biden’s policy, some of this is just unfair, and some of this is just silly. Israel does need our help. Honestly, Americans have already been killed. Do all these America first people who support Trump?
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:04

    Do they want American troops to go in? I’m not personally against it, incidentally. If we could rescue hostages, I would use
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:09

    They do not.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:10

    They do not.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:10

    Right. They’re super clear.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:12

    That’s right. So it’s both like Americans to really be tough and stand up for Americans Americans get killed and let Israel do it. Well, okay. We can let Israel do it, but that’s got its own complications. And it does matter what public opinion.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:24

    It was these same voters when they were watching Fox with all due respect to them in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty was all. Trump’s great because look at these Abraham accords. The arab countries are coming around to being okay, with Israel, which incidentally was partly true and was an accomplishment of the Trump administration. So this is what partisan politics looks what strikes me, and you’ve seen this in the other, I think this is in last week’s focus group, baby, people saying, the world’s a mess. Once the Trump, things were calmer, and now everything’s falling apart.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:49

    Let’s leave and leave aside price levels are inflation and stuff, but also there are two wars going on and who knows how they’ll end and Biden’s president and somehow getting rid of Biden or a younger Democrats who could replace him if he stepped aside, it will somehow solve this problem. And Biden’s not responsible for these wars. And you know what? You don’t know how wars will end. That’s sort of what wars are out, you know, and they’re very difficult.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:10

    And the good guys don’t always win, and they don’t always win in the first few months or without real losses and casualties and heartbreak. But The fact that Biden is getting no credit for either Ukraine or Israel for managing those competently and seriously and in the, I’d say, a bipartisan tradition of American foreign policy over the last decades, even from swing voters that they can step back to say everything’s a mess. And somehow we did change. That is the mood. That’s, again, why someone like me thinks maybe another Democrat would be better than Biden.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:40

    It’s unfair, but at least the other democrat wouldn’t be the incumbent who’s responsible for the best, you know. And I am a little freaked out as it’s just political matter how much that’s just become routine among swing voters though.
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:53

    I totally agree that people always want someone new. They certainly want someone younger at this point. I mean, I’m happy to have the argument about Biden
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:00

    No. I’m not even making that argument. I and I I agree. I’m not saying that if Gretchen Whitmer were the nominee, they wouldn’t say, and she’s just as bad as Biden, so they wouldn’t be open minded about it either. I just But I have a little amazed that just for Biden, leave aside totally whether he should step aside for twenty twenty four or whatever.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:14

    The normally, there’s a bit of a rally to the flag effect when we get a crisis and Americans are at risk and Americans were killed here. And other Americans are hostages and a very close American allies, fighting a very difficult war. And Ukraine is a less historically close American ally, but I’d say a very admirable country that’s standing up against Putin, who, I think everyone can agree is horrible and a force for evil in the world. And Biden’s getting no bump, no rally to the flag effect. And just as a analytical matter, what does that say about the public’s view?
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:44

    I don’t even understand it, honestly. I mean, is that the age shouldn’t affect the rally to the flag thing? You know what I mean? But but it it just doesn’t seem to be thing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:52

    Don’t you think he’s done? Maybe as good a job as you could expect to get from any Democratic president. So leave aside the credit, but, like, In this moment, you’re right, that the voters perceive the world to be in chaos, and that’s working against Biden, but in terms of, like, who do you really want steering the ship in this moment. Is that good to have Biden there? Like, do you really want somebody else or isn’t he uniquely suited for this moment?
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:15

    I I think he’s done a good job. I’m glad he’s gonna keep steering the ship for a year. That’s quite of a long time. And I think at that point, presumably, we’re through this initial crisis, with Israel and Gaza, what hopes, and maybe Ukraine is, you know, we’ll see what it is. But and I do think most of the leading candidates on the democratic side would continue by this I don’t think he’s uniquely qualified.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:33

    I think he’s not a good job. Okay. If he keeps doing this job for the next year, he will be a very good winter president.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:40

    You don’t think if he gets us through wars in both Ukraine and Israel that that buys him the goodwill of a second term?
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:46

    Well, honestly, that’s a very Fair question, it should buy him more goodwill than it’s buying him.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:52

    That is true. I was surprised a little bit by how unwilling any of these members of this focus group was to give him some credit. It was like, he’s an idiot. He’s weak. He’s doing everything wrong.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:05

    So I I also wanna talk about Donald Trump a little bit because one of the things I’ve consistently horrified by in recent years is how some of Trump’s like, worst most ridiculous statements just roll right off of him. For example, he recently called Hezbolla smart right after the attacks. And also, you know, was, like, fighting with netanyahu over, like, the stole an election. I didn’t even actually understand quite.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:31

    Right.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:31

    Trump’s grievance seemed very stupid and just about Trump, but let’s listen to how these orders defended Trump.
  • Speaker 7
    0:35:39

    Most is very smart when it comes to how they apply their propaganda to different areas. Look how they talk to the Arabic world, tell the James, kill the Israel, kill the Christians, whatever. Look how they go to our American universities, actually universities in the west. Completely different mindset. Go after the occupiers.
  • Speaker 7
    0:36:07

    Go after the colonialists. Okay? It’s completely different. They are smart. They know how to use the money that we’ve been giving them, and that money goes way back into the equipment a court deal that he did back in the nineties.
  • Speaker 7
    0:36:22

    That money’s been going to the Palestinians and to Venezuela and must, people They’re masters at this state.
  • Speaker 5
    0:36:30

    I think Trump, we all know, does not have filters. And unfortunately, without a filter, it comes out sounding wrong, but I don’t think that’s where his heart was.
  • Speaker 3
    0:36:40

    He had tried to tax and tariff so much They were scared to move a finger afraid they won’t be able to import products into the country. And not only afraid of that, but they were getting taxed heavily on it. He had every country at bay at his fingertips. He was calling the trying to buy a rocket man on the news. Oh, rocket man over there.
  • Speaker 3
    0:37:00

    He’s gonna shoot us will demolish his own country. He had a whole liters of every country scared out of their pants.
  • Speaker 5
    0:37:08

    The foreign countries whichever they are looked at Trump as he’s a little bit crazy and you don’t know what he’s gonna do. So they weren’t gonna test him. No way. No how.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:20

    Okay. So this is pretty standard from what we hear from voters. You remember that New York Times a couple weeks ago that everybody freaked out about, that had Trump leading in all the swing states. So we have heard both from Republicans and from a lot of swing voters, that they feel like these major global conflicts wouldn’t be happening if Trump was at the helm. And many of them, like, say this for this reason.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:44

    Like, because he’s so crazy that nobody would test him. And so, like, when we say, can you believe he’s calling Hezbollah smart? Why would anybody want this insane person to have their finger on the button? Like, these voters are telling us that they actually like that he’s a little crazy and unpredictable. Because that’s gonna keep these foreign leaders on their toes.
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:04

    Thoughts on that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:06

    Yeah. Look, I mean, b b dizeng yahoo is Trump’s great friend. Was prime minister of Israel when this attack happened, and they were not prepared. And it was a horrible failure for the Nelson Yahoo government. Everyone in Israel understands that, including people, who have gone to mobilize to fight.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:19

    So we need to be able to distinguish between sort of being a tough guy. I also incidentally help prop up Hamas for many years that was made bipartisan Israeli policy foolish in retrospect and maybe foolish at the time, to, you know, dividing the Palestinians between the Palestinian authority and Hamas and so forth. Foreign policy is difficult, but the idea that just being super bellicose and tough sounding while actually withdrawing from the world, which it is his actual policy. Is actual policies to let Putin win in Ukraine. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:47

    I think that’s very bad foreign policy, but I guess people are entitled to have that view. My colleague Jonathan Last has a wonderful point that the polls are very surprising that Biden gets no credit and so forth. And the bidens behind Trump, and then we step back and say, release behind this guy who tried to overturn the last election and so forth. But you know what? The post could be off by some amount though they were pretty accurate for this past Tuesday.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:10

    But, precisely, because they’re surprising to us and seem irrational, that’s why we have to take them seriously. If everything were going rationally by our what we kind of assumed for most of our adult lifetimes, we wouldn’t really need to consult the polls every week or two. It would kind of have a sense of economy is doing this and foreign policy is doing that. And that means the president is probably in this range of approval and in this range of likely reelection. And and if the other guy has tried to overturn the election and done a whole bunch of other crazy things, he probably isn’t going to be the prohibitive favorite for the nomination.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:38

    The fact that we are in such uncharted waters post twenty sixteen at this point. You’ve made many times too. This is why you do these focus groups. Right? You gotta learn what’s going on out there.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:47

    You may not like it. I don’t like it, but take it seriously. And I would say the same about the polls. We gotta face up to where the American public is right now if one doesn’t like where they are. How does one educate them a little differently and, what arguments work and what arguments don’t work?
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:01

    But the resistance to to the arguments is pretty striking. Again, you’ve seen this in other groups too. I mean, people just look back at the trump years and they’ve sort of forgotten about all everything they didn’t like or minimized it. And decide it was great. It was all just, you know, it was a wonderful four years, and if only we could get that back.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:19

    Yeah. I mean, I remember hearing much more from swing voters back then. That Trump was often embarrassing us on the national stage. Like, it was an actual concern of swing voters. And now I am just hearing much more of this sentiment that, like, Trump, because he’s a wild man, they’re not worried that he is totally unpredictable.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:38

    They’ve all decided that that unpredictability is both an asset, which is tough because if you’re like, well, He’s crazy, and that should be a thing that turns voters off. And they’re like, no. No. No. This is a good thing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:49

    But they also the extent to which America first, which I think oftentimes you think of as not something particularly coherent, does have at its core this idea of we don’t want any wars, we don’t want our troops to go anywhere We want the resources not to go abroad. We want them to be here. We need to take care of our own people, our own problems, the southern border, hear this all the time, and I hear sometimes Mitch McConnell or some old school Republican or even like a Hillary Clinton trying to valiantly explain to Americans why the security of the Ukrainians, for example, why that has an impact on America. Like, why you should care as an American about our security and how that’s related to the rest of the world. But Trump and sort of the isolationist wing of the Republican party have done a really good job of convincing voters that if we just don’t care about what happens in the rest of the world, that, like, it won’t come find us here.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:45

    No. I think that’s right. America first, I went with Trump introduced the slogan in late twenty fifteen, I guess, early twenty I was incredulous. I mean, this is the slogan that was so discredited by World War II. This was literally the slogan of the isolationists in thirty nine forty forty one.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:59

    We don’t have to care about the fact that Hitler’s overrunning Europe, and he overruns a little bit of Europe. He’s not gonna overrun the rest. Then he overruns the rest. Well, he’s not gonna affiliate, do anything more than that. And then Japan also, we can stay out of that war.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:10

    They’d stayed away a long time. I gotta say they paid a price for that, and people learned the lessons of history for six, seven decades. And I suppose at some point, that runs out. And I think it has run out. I do think it was hurt by the fact that we had both parties in a sense going a little bit very mild version of America first in the last fifteen, twenty years of reaction to Iraq, I suppose, in particular, a kind of, you know, nation building begins at hope.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:33

    As an Obama said that, a speech, two thousand nine, two thousand ten, I sent to one of the really few people I spoke to occasionally in the O’Wala White House, being a good Republican critic of Obama, huge McCain supporter at the time. I said it’s a mistake for president Obama to say that. He’s saying it in a way I understand his nation building begins at home when you tell care. We need all this stuff, domestic spending. I’m not a pro or rock guy, so I don’t want this kind of adventurous in which they thought was a mistake.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:57

    Maybe it was, in some ways. But I said, this is gonna help the Pep Buchanan forces in the Republican Party. You know, it just reinforces their sense that we need to just focus on things at home, and I gotta say on that. I think there was a little inadvertent you might say helped from the other party in this. And then the rock going badly, and we don’t have to go through the whole history of it, but I totally agree with you.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:16

    The degree to which that sentiment is really pervasive now on the right and strong. You know, Nick Haley did her best in the Republican debate on Chris Christie. They’re not exactly getting a majority of their public and primary vote. DeSantis, who, when I knew slightly as a member of Congress in twenty fourteen, fifteen, was a staunch you know, internationalist World War II consensus, American strength guy. Heritage Foundation just put out as something supporting Tuberville’s block on the military promotions.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:45

    I mean, which is really the most stupid and crazy and performative nonsense, but it is inconveniencing and damaging our military. It’s not like nothing. And it really is hurting military. I read the idea that that’s now being supported by the official organs of the right, which are America first. That is the new right mega establishment.
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:03

    And I very much agree with you that people look at other parts of the message and of the, you know, doctrine you might say as a new right, and they’re more startled by that. And some of that is worth being startled by the authoritarianism attempt for the rule of law at all, but the America first part of it is deeper than people think.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:19

    It is. I I just hear it all the time. And in fact, I kinda wanna wrap up with how this group talked about Ukraine because in spite of this group’s support for Israel, we heard a lot of the same things we hear from other ins about not wanting to give more aid to Ukraine. Listen.
  • Speaker 5
    0:44:34

    I joined a program where you were sort of a penpal to a Ukrainian student to try to help them improve their English and so forth. And she and I had Zoom meetings twice a week, and sometimes we couldn’t because she was in a shelter, or she didn’t have electricity or her she doesn’t know where her sister is or her boyfriend. They didn’t have enough food. Everything that she was going through on a daily basis, bombs going off around her sirens going off. I shared with her, and it was I was scared for her.
  • Speaker 5
    0:45:04

    Now she’s lost communication with me altogether because she doesn’t have the resources, but now I’m seeing what some of our money has gone to, and it is certainly not to help people like her. It’s gone to god knows where, and I just don’t think that unless we had accountability, another dime should go over there.
  • Speaker 6
    0:45:22

    I think that we’re going enough under the circumstances But unfortunately, they’re also, in my opinion, is not the accountability for all the money worth giving and all the support we’re providing. And part of that lends back to the Biden connection, if you Will Saletan concerned about that. We’ve given too much as it is. Look what he did with Afghanistan, leaving all the weaponry in such for the Taliban. What did the Taliban do?
  • Speaker 6
    0:45:52

    They sold much of it to where a loss is now killing Israelis and everybody else using some of those weapons they’ve received. It’s a vicious cycle right now because of Biden.
  • Speaker 5
    0:46:06

    And I think just yesterday, Johnson put out a bill for Israel’s support funding to Israel. Biden, it’s gonna veto it because he wants more money for the Ukraine and more for humanitarian aid? No. Israel needs money right now and they need to see that we’re unequivocal in our support, and that’s not Biden.
  • Speaker 1
    0:46:28

    So this is a bigger question, but I gotta say there’s just nothing I’ve seen change in the Republican Party more It’s a way that it views foreign policy now. Right? It goes back to America first question, but it’s weird to have the Democrats be the ones who are talking about sending aid and and they wanna help both Israel and Ukraine. They’re not trying to use Israel as like a political football So I guess what do you think the future is for American foreign policy if the Republican party continues to move in this isolationist direction?
  • Speaker 2
    0:47:03

    No. I mean, I really found that almost heartbreaking that first woman who, obviously, is a very decent person, went out of her way to have, you know, be a pen pal with someone in Ukraine that it wasn’t something she had to do. And seem to really be concerned for this young woman over there and and for people over there. And now she’s decided she’s out of touch with this person. I hope that person’s okay, obviously.
  • Speaker 2
    0:47:21

    But somehow someone told her there was no accountability for the aid. And now, so she’s tired of it, and the worst inconclusive. I mean, that’s just bad. I mean, it’s bad in the sense that it it shows how much the notion of war weariness has penetrated, you know, the this is not the Republican elite who have fancy arguments for why we shouldn’t do Ukraine. This is a kind of let’s just wash your hands with that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:47:42

    I think it’s wrong morally, to be honest, but I also think it’s very foolish geopolitically. And if that becomes pervasive in the American public, then we’re back in the twenties and thirties, and then we’re gonna have the same consequence. We have Putin who prevails in Ukraine. God knows what happens in Europe. The moral, I would say political case for Israel is very similar to the case for Ukraine.
  • Speaker 2
    0:48:01

    And if you hate the atrocities, as you shouldn’t, Israel, you should hate the atrocities, that have happened in Ukraine, but that, as you say, is an argument some Democrats make. I wish a few more of them made it. And I wish a few more of them made it really vehemently. I think there’s this little bit left over in the Democratic party of kind of being a little apologetic before they make that argument as opposed to the Scoopjacks and Hubert Humphrey Democrats who led with that argument, and that was part of what made them Democrats. They were for civil rights at home and human rights of fraud.
  • Speaker 2
    0:48:27

    It was one package. I I think we’re partly back to that, honestly, with with Biden and Blinking and stuff, but we could use to get back a little further and a little stronger. And I do think this, but a bit of a price, just get back to our beginning of the discussion. If they were more of a Scoopjacks and Hubert Humphrey kind of emphasis coming from the top of the Democratic party, I think some of these people might be reminded of, yeah, you know, true. Half of what we spend in Ukraine is for American manufacturers to make more weapons to send to Ukraine and replenish our own stocks, etcetera, etcetera, Mitch McConnell tries to make those arguments, but the Democratic leadership could do a little more to arrest the move of public opinion, but just to finish on this, I think I’ve added this now as we sit here and what is it early November?
  • Speaker 2
    0:49:07

    What if Trump is the nominees he’s likely to be, and he’s repeating all these arguments and everyone around him is repeating all these arguments for the next year? I think that’s not a good thing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:49:16

    Obviously, it’s easy for us to think about all of the bad things that would happen if Trump became the president. Even if he’s the nominee, like the extent to which these dictators or ever just kinda, like, hang out and wait and prepare. Like, okay. If he wins, like, it’s open season. And, like, that’s why the domestic stuff, like, he’s gonna seek retribution.
  • Speaker 1
    0:49:34

    Like, that stuff’s all really bad. But to me, the fact that people interpret the chaos of the world and sort of put it at Biden’s feet I think is deeply frightening because the idea of Trump being president when the world feels like it’s on the brink Like, when it feels like we’re in a really scary place and, like, at the precipice of something, Trump marching in and tipping us over on that, whether it’s pulling us Nato or siding with Putin against Ukraine or just otherwise destabilizing the world in his way, I find deeply be frightening. And so ends another upbeat episode of the Focus Secret Podcast. Bill Crystal, my thank you so much for coming on today, and thanks to all of you for listening to the Focus Secret Podcast, remember to rate and review us, which helps others Discover the show. We will be back next week with a special Thanksgiving episode.
  • Speaker 1
    0:50:27

    Bye, everyone.
Want to listen without ads? Join Bulwark+ for an exclusive ad-free version of The Focus Group. Learn more here. Already a Bulwark+ member? Access the premium version here.