S4 Ep3: “He’s not fighting. He needs to fight.” (with Jen Psaki)

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Focus Secret Podcast. I’m Sarah well publisher of the Bulwark. And this week, we’re checking in with Democrats. According to a CNN poll from late August, only thirty three percent of Democratic leaning vote wanted Joe Biden to be the Democratic nominee, and spoiler alert. Our focus groups tend to bear that out.

We’ve heard a common thread running through our conversations with Democrats. They think the Republican Party is just meaner and tougher, and they’d like to see Democrats be more assertive and proactive. They want their own fighter. They also see the Democrats failing to live up to their expectations in a lot of ways. And man do democratic voters have high expectations of their political officials.

I’m wondering what it’s going to spell out for Joe Biden’s reelection prospects and what Democrats should do about it. That is what I wanna talk about with my guest today. Former White House press secretary and host of inside with Jen Saki at twelve noon on Sundays and eight PM on Mondays on MSNBC, Jen Saki. Thank you so much for being here.

Hi. I’m so happy to be here. As you know, I’m kind of obsessed with your focus groups and your all of your information you share about what people actually think. So, I’m excited to talk to you about it.

That’s great. You know, I’ve been trying to workshop this whole idea of calling people who love focus groups, groupies, or focus groupies. I’m not sure it’s landing yet, but what do you think about that as a as a messenger?

I want a Sarah Longwell mug that says focus groupie, like, I’m part of the focus groupies.

Okay. Great. I don’t want people to be groupies of mine. I want them to be groupies of the groups. Like, I’m a focus groupie too.

I wanna be a groupie of your focus groups. That’s where I’m gonna identify. There you go.

Alright. Thank you. Actually, I just wanna ask you really quickly. I think I asked you this when you were on with Tim. Like, how are you doing all these shows?

Well, You know, it’s funny. We were just meeting about this Sarah Longwell how we were thinking about differentiating Sunday from Monday. You know, how do people feel at noon on Monday is different than how people feel on Monday PMA, and also a lot of news actually happens in that period of time.

So Totally.

It’s been great. I mean, in Sundays, we try to kind of look back at the week. And kind of peel the curtain back to what the heck is actually happening Washington on the campaign trail. It’s a little bigger picture. On Monday’s that’s still what I want people to come away with.

Like, they learn something about someone or something, but also very much in the moment of Monday. But, yes, it’s it’s more guests, more people, but more fun as they say.

Like, I think Sundays, we feel scared of Monday. And by Monday, we’ve accepted one. Yes. And we’re just like, in it.

And Sundays, it’s like, get your cup of coffee gonna just kind of give you a sense of what’s happening here and what you may have heard about and you’re not sure what it’s all about. And That’s a little bit of a different vibe for humans. Right? And then Monday night, it’s like that day just happened. What the heck does that mean?

It’s a little different, right, in terms of where your own body ecosystem is.

Well, then it’s very lucky that you have shows on both of these days now. So you can do the different vibes. Okay. So here’s the thing. So I wanna promise you and our listeners upfront because I know when we do dem groups, people do this, like, Why do you just talk about how people are down on the Democratic party?

And I just wanna assure all of you, I just tell you what people are saying. I can’t change what they’re saying. Can’t do anything about it. I just bring it to you and listen. The dem groups are gonna be kind of a bummer, but I do have good news at the very I’m gonna I’m gonna run you through what voters think.

Jen and I are gonna talk about it, but then there will be some good news at the end. So so stick around. Okay. I also just add for Democrats

who are listening who are stressed about hearing this, you have to hear it. Right? It is so important to be clear eyed about what the realities are of what matters and doesn’t matter and what people worry about and what they don’t. And sometimes it’s not what you think, and it’s not always what you’re hearing through the media. I’m not a media trasher.

I’m in the media, but sometimes you gotta really talk to real people who are actual voters. So that’s the value of it.

You know that’s my mantra. We have to confront what is. Being what is. That’s right. Alright.

So I wanna talk about how these voters are feeling about the Democratic party in general, which is that They feel like the dems have either sort of like a PR problem or a problem getting their message out, but there is just frustration overall with the dims and its messaging. It’s become rather passive

and not as

vocal as it needs to be in this sort of day and age. And also just finding people to run positions that they can support and that larger population would be interested in, but to keep recycling the same people over and over again. So we have, like, a lot of eighty year old people in Congress and running for president. What happened to the forty year old?

The Democrats, we’ve gotta get our stuff together. We got some healing to do. I feel like we don’t really have someone that I know of that I would just, right off the bat, say, oh, yes, I’m voting for that person. I just need them to run right now.

Unfortunately, I don’t think they’re being as assertive. They have a PR problem. They don’t get their, you know, accomplishments out in front of people enough. For people to understand and say, Oh, wow. We are doing something.

Oh, we are making, you know, strides. Like, how many people understand what what they’ve done, you know.

Besides the, sadness, are there issues that you wanna see them be more aggressive about? Things you want them to talk about more?

The George Floyd bill that still hasn’t passed. That needs to happen. Sorry. That needs to happen.

How does the ERA?

Yeah.

How long has happened on the table? Uh-huh.

The one thing I would say is I’d like him to be a little more front center. Hey, here’s what you know, our focus is these next couple of years, what we wanna do, and kinda use that. You know, triple is on TV all the time, even though we all hated it probably on this chat, but at least he was out there.

He’s not fighting. He needs to fight.

So this is like a really common thing I hear from Democrats. Right? It’s like we don’t see them. We don’t hear them. They say the same thing about Joe and Kamala.

And then it’s like, we need a fighter. So, yeah, you do hear that?

Yes. Commonly hear this. And I’m not sure that any voter thinks of it this way, and not even the people you talk to is we’re in like this unique period right now, right? Where Biden is running against unless something happens crazing the primary, a person who is essentially blocking out the sun of all coverage. Through his legal issues and

Yeah.

Things he says that are offensive to a large swath of the population, not everybody, but like When people say they want Biden to be a fighter, I think that can have lots of meanings. I do sometimes think that some population of people want him to be vocalizing and talking about Trump’s legal issues and the offensive things Trump says. Which is not his style and not if you talk to their campaign how they think they won in twenty twenty. So it’s tricky Right? And I don’t know that everybody digests it or thinks about it that way, but the the other challenge they have which is the reality is that it is very hard to break through.

And this is not a critique. I am in the media, and we cover a lot of Trump’s trials, right, and trump’s legal issues. It is a huge, enormous, historic story. That is a reality. Biden is out there doing a lot of events so as Paris, they are not edgy.

They’re not conflict driven. Right? They are not about Trump’s legal stuff. They are about his accomplishments, but they have a limited capacity to break through. That being said, there’s more of that to be done.

I think, you know, the president give a democracy speech which I think was a better model, right? You need to find conflict, you need to find contrast, and they need to do that. Because otherwise it is very hard to break through. I don’t know if that’s entirely gonna satisfy people, but the drawing, the contrast is something they haven’t done quite yet. But I’m not surprised by any of that.

It is hard to hear, to break through the sun blocking nature of kind of everything about Trump right now.

Yeah. And I guess I have sort of two thoughts on this. One is it’s a little unfair in the way that, like, Joe Biden has tried to renormalize things after Trump. And so the virtue it is a virtue of trying to be a normal stable politician that is not saying insane things all the time. Yeah.

The fact that that sort of works against him And maybe the two thoughts are sort of actually just one thought because our media environment has changed in a way that Donald Trump changed it. Right? You are so used to a president that is in your face all the time. They are so useful to the constant trump even if they say they hate it, that doesn’t mean it’s still not like a diet their body somehow has decided crave now. And when Joe Biden doesn’t give it to them, they feel like something’s missing.

Like, I don’t see him. Like, he’s probably on a pretty normal schedule. It’s just that it’s so different now in terms of what people expect after those four years of trauma.

I think that’s so, so true. And there is an aspect of this where, I mean, look, I love politics. I love government. But I don’t know that you should be thinking about your president and what weird thing they said or did every day. That’s not how normal people should function to your point.

There is a normalization and a and this is where some of this is so interesting since I’m a focus groupie. When you hear what people have to say, which is like contradictory without meaning to be contradictory is like they like that Joe Biden is kind of a nice stable person, right? But they also want him to be a fighter That doesn’t have to be contradictory, but one of the things that was a baseline of him getting elected was people feeling like, you know what? I may not a hundred percent agree with everything, but like, he’s a good guy. Right?

Mhmm. So it’s tricky because you have to still stay true as a politician, as you well know, to the core characteristics of who you are in order to effectively run, and it’s a tricky balance. But, yeah, I do think the appetite for zingers out there is not always how politics has been or should be. You know?

Yeah. And I will say, you know, I was just saying to my team before this. I was like, man, this is just like doom and gloom from top to bottom. I was like, and I know people do say it all the time. They say, like, He’s a nice man.

Yeah. But it’s like a really short thing. It’s like the nice man part gets like tossed out and it’s like a little caveat before they complain.

Yeah.

But you are right. They are aware and believe he is good and decent and nice. And so I’m going to insert that because it’s not in the sound it would just be like a big compilation of a bunch of people being like, well, he’s a nice guy. Yeah. I like it.

You know, I also think this is the challenge of incumbents There are many benefits of incumbency. I mean, you know, you have the plane, you’ve got the music, like, you’ve got the pomp and circumstance. A challenge and a good part of democracy, to be honest, is that you’re held accountable for what you promised. Right? And you are judged in part on what you promised.

This was true when I worked for Obama on his reelection campaign as well. And it’s like, well, you didn’t get this done yet. We’re still losing jobs. You are judged on that, and that is also where voters are, I think, at this point in the cycle. Or you can tell me, but I think that’s pretty common.

Oh, no. This is a perfect segue. We got clip after a clip of people upset about things they think Joe Biden has not done for them. Yeah. Let’s go.

I mean, as a woman who also has a twenty three year old daughter and as, you know, a mom who also has a twenty one year old transgender son. I’m telling my kids to, you know, leave the country as soon as you can. I feel that There needs to be executive action to codify, if you can, abortion rights, and, you know, the rights of transgender people that are being eroded across the country. You know, right in Pennsylvania, there’s all kinda events that happen up in Cleveland concerts and stuff. He won’t go there because he’s terrified

I mean, he did forgive some of the student loans. I mean, that was a big kudos, but I just feel like everything else And when I say everything else, I mean like the shootings. I know he’s trying to fight Supreme Court on many things, but I just feel like He’s still a vice president.

Climate change has kinda been back and forth on that. And then the defense budget, we’re we’re talking about have no money for the country, and we just blew through almost a twenty eight dollars. So

The shootings. And I know it’s almost every president since Colin Biden, I understand, but It’s right. You can’t go anywhere. Mhmm. You feel like I I don’t wanna go to a movie.

I don’t wanna go to the grocery store because of what’s gonna happen. You know, this is something that our leader or whoever it is, especially Biden right now, because he is in the chair. We need to do something.

Like, so a commissioner at Office for gun, whatever it was, barely scratches the surface. I was throw this out there. So I’m involved in crisis counseling, and I can’t tell you the number of people who text or call in and say, I have a weapon I’m gonna go down to the whatever and do this with a gun. We never know if they are not because it’s anonymous, but it’s on people’s minds clearly.

So I would say the the things that come up the most, guns, like that not enough’s being done about guns, not enough’s being done about the environment, we have a separate section on the economy, so we’ll get into that. But, like, here’s a softball question. Is it frustrating that people talk about these things that aren’t being done? Mean, you heard this is actually in the first round of clips where they were like, I feel like they need a better PR strategy. I need because people don’t know.

They do not know what this administration has passed. They just don’t.

Look, some of this is there are limitations of a PR strategy, and I can say that as somebody who did that for twenty years. And part of that is the challenge of breaking through an environment where there’s, like, a bizarre impeachment hearing and, like, the former president is about to be on trial. Right? So, like, It’s challenging. What I do think at this point in the campaign and nobody thinks of it this way, but having lived through a lot, the Biden team is already starting to spend a lot of money in paid media.

And the reality is they know that that’s the only way to break through with their accomplishments. Because of the reality of the cycle of historic events that reporters are understandably gonna cover that are not his accomplishments. Right? And they’ve already spent more money than most candidates and incumbents spend at this point in time. And when you see what their ads are about, They are about economic accomplishments.

Again, very hard to get covered through a PR strategy. The ad on Ukraine, as you all know, was not about Ukraine. It was about age. And gun violence, it’s such an interesting one because having been in this business a long time, as you have been. I mean, when I worked for John Carey in two thousand three, four on his presidential campaign, the Democrats in the primary were trying to prove they were protectors of the second amendment.

Right? I mean, like, we took John Carey out to go shoot pheasants or something. Like, I don’t know if that’s what we shot, but, like, and how that issue has, like, move change to me. It’s like one of the top issues I care about. Like, I felt like emotional listening to people talk about it.

And sad too. Honestly, it’s not trading. It’s sad that people don’t know that of all the issues. I mean, Joe Biden helped get the assault weapons ban passed in the first place. Like, this is an issue that is like core in his soul.

I would be surprised if they don’t do paid media on that, but they’re probably gonna have to. Because otherwise, you can’t get it covered unless there’s a shooting. And that is a terrible cycle, but it’s where we are. But none of that surprises me. When asked if people thought Joe Biden has fought hard enough uncontrolled issues.

Only one out of nine people raise their hands. Right? Yeah. That makes me feel sad because it’s such an issue he cares so deeply about.

One, also, he’s passed Yes. As, like, the first person to do it in a really long time. Then they do seem to understand that it’s republicans blocking them. I think the fighter stuff comes in. And also, frankly, just a misunderstanding of the limitations of how government can do.

Yeah. And, like, what government can do But I think what people sort of crave is a more aggressive way, not just of saying, like, I care about this issue, but of, like, I would do all of these things, but for these Republicans, and I wanna jam it down their throats. I wanna push back slightly on this idea of it’s hard to break through in the coverage because and I think I’ve I’ve said this to you before, but my big critique so I am not a Gavin Newsom lover. In fact, I am a Gavin Newsom annoys me. I just I’m not a Gavin Newsom band.

Do you have to comment?

I like Gavin Newsom. We don’t have to debate that. Yeah.

We’re a

few debate.

But I wanna say, I said Gavin Newsom after the Republican debate, fighting with Sean Hannity, pushing back against the idea that the Biden administration hadn’t done anything on energy independence, and he had receipts. He was arguing. And I was like, you know, Gavin Newsom? Some things you’ve done in California are not good, but I gotta tell you what you’re doing right now is what every other Democrat should be doing. And I don’t understand where the surrogate game is.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. This is all totally fair, and I am not putting this on the feet of media, actually the opposite. I’m acknowledging that all of this stuff happening Trump and others is a huge story that people are understandably gonna cover. I would say on this that let me get to the surrogate thing a second, but this is where it becomes hard if you’re sitting in the White House because, yeah, would it get covered if Joe Biden went out and was like, these freaking Republicans, Mitch McConnell, and all these people, they will not bring up gun reform are times when he’s done that. He’s never felt like that’s the way to get things done.

He has been proven right on a number of occasions, including like the infrastructure bill and getting Republicans to vote with him on certain things because he is an optimist by nature and it just played out. That is also a character quality that voters like. Right? Or they did in twenty twenty. So it’s a little tricky.

Okay. The surrogate game is a very interesting one. I actually think that there is a great bench. You may not like any of these people. That’s okay.

You don’t have to, but I think to the Gavin Newsome point, there is an amazing bench of governors who are doing exactly what you said. Right? Gretchen Whitmer, Josh Shapiro, West Moore, to varying degrees. This is kind of the model of the next generation of leaders, right, which is kind of calling out the BS and, like, pushing back on the bully. I do think that’s very effective, but it’s not Joe Biden’s character style.

So unlike how I feel about Gavin Newsom, I am like a big gretch. I’m ready for big gretch. And Josh Shapiro is the now governor of my home state, actually one of these focus groups I was doing in person live in, in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and they love Josh Shapiro. And I love me and Josh Shapiro. And I think they are effective governors of swing states who won by huge margins.

I see Josh Shapiro doing a good job governing his state. I saw him fix ninety five. But, like, I was actually asking them in this group who they gave credit to for the how quickly ninety five got fixed. And, like, it’s all to Shapiro, and there’s no connection to, like, infrastructure funding.

But I don’t see Gretchen Whitmer

elevating her

I mean is they’re pushing back and punching back at bullies as it relates to their role of governing their state. Okay. Look, what I mean is that is a good model. And it’s working for all of them. And it is authentic and real and who they are.

Like, I think that is who Gretchen Whitmer is. That is who Josh Shapiro is. Right? And it feels strong. I think there will be more of that, and this is like where it needs to be led by the candidate and the campaign at the top.

But this is where they’re heading, I think. And it will help, I think, in in this whole argument of people needing a little conflict, a little fight, is drawing more of that contrast and conflict. And I think if you’re a governor, even if you’re a coach or the campaign or whatever all the various titles are, you’re waiting a little bit for the direction there, right, of like when are they doing that? And they’re starting to do that. And I think then you will see more of that from some of these governors and surrogates who are prominent people, like, who were helping on the campaign.

I will also say, though, broadly speaking, the Democratic party is a big massive umbrella party. Right? That’s a good thing. And you and I have talked about this before. No one is waiting for their marching orders.

Right? We embrace that. There’s like a big huge family of people, and we love all the people, of all the kinds. Right? But nobody is like waiting for their sheet of points.

And so that is a challenge. This is not a new challenge. This is like who the party is. So that’s always gonna be a challenge.

Right. This is like was genuinely a revelation for me that I think a lot of Democrats are like, yeah, dummy. This is what we deal with. But I was sort of like, hey, did you guys know you’ve like a very unruly coalition to deal with? Like, as Republicans, our homogeneity is our strength.

Diversity is not the Republican strength. Right? They, like, money comes from the same kinds of towns and goes to the same kinds of churches and sort of consumes the same kind of media and Democrats and always like, what are you guys gonna do with these people? And that’s why Hillary Clinton when she was running her campaign was like, and you get a policy and you get a policy because, you got this big unruly college. That’s hard.

It’s hard for you guys.

It is hard. I I would say diversity is also a strength in the party because I think it pushes people to be in some ways more open minded. About policies they need to be more progressive on or realities of like what’s possible. So it’s a strength, but it is also like a freaking big Thanksgiving table. There’s gotta be like some yelling arguing pushing.

Therefore, it’s like finding the common values. And what people are seeing right now is that’s still working its way through. And it’s like, I’ll hurry up already. That’s true. But there’s like thirteen months left until the election.

And as the choice becomes more crystalized, what people are unified on is their hatred of Donald Trump in the Democratic Party. Every elected, every activist. It’s like, okay, like, do I want somebody younger than Joe Biden? Yes. Do I want somebody more diverse?

Yes. Although sometimes they’re also like, I want somebody with forty years experience who’s thirty and you’re like, what it’s like not possible. Like, buy space time continuum, So like all of that’s true, but like we are where we are and like the Democrats, they usually come together to fight the collective enemy. Right?

And

that is where there’s an empowering, unifying moment. Well, since

you brought it up

before we go into another tough

focus group, listen. I will tell you.

I’m okay. Really, I’m hanging in there. You’re doing great.

You’re doing great. You’re doing great.

But the

but some of our listeners, I know some of the listeners, like, they start to get, like, itchy about, like, I cannot listen to any more voters talk about Joe Biden being old. Here’s the thing.

This is what I want everybody to say. Donald Trump was a freshman when Joe Biden was a senior in college. Okay? That’s how close you are. I don’t know if that’s literally, but, like, that’s the age gap.

Okay.

Continue.

This is

the good news I was gonna say to the end, but I’ll just say it right now. When we do head to heads, it’s like when we were doing this focus group in Pennsylvania, we did two groups. And there was a young black woman in the first one and a young white woman in the second one, both of whom were suggesting that, like, they might not vote. They were pretty down on Joe Biden The young black woman was very frustrated with what she saw as a lack of sort of urgency around both gun violence and, police violence against black people. The white woman was very focused on, like, the negatives around the economy.

Yeah.

And and they were kinda, like, leaning towards, like, I don’t know that I’ll vote. And then I said, Well, what about if Donald Trump is the nominee? Mhmm. And two things. One, it was clear that they had not clocked yet.

That Donald Trump was the likely nominee. Right? They didn’t and then they both were like, oh, well, if he’s the nominee, yeah, of course I’ll vote. And also, like, even in swing voting groups, there’s a little bit of backsliding. I’m not gonna lie.

You see a little bit of it from people who went trump sixteen Biden twenty twenty. Sure. But mostly you do a head to head, Biden versus Trump. Biden is still winning. Like, he’ll win, like, eight out of nine people.

Sure. And so they have forgotten what they hate about Donald Trump And they feel right now quite acutely what annoys them about Joe Biden. Sure. Or like what’s annoying them about the economy, even if it’s not Joe Biden or his age, I do think that that contrast is not in people’s heads right now. Like, we can imagine it very vividly, but these voters are not there yet.

And I think once they are, that is gonna make a difference. That is why. That’s my good news. It’s like, don’t wet your bed over everything. Right.

Well, first of all, a little bed wetting is good. Okay. I mean, Republicans might need to bed a little bit more because Trump is their nominee. No one seems to be wetting any beds anywhere. Somehow, if Joe Biden were on our podcast, your podcast right now, he should do that.

Yeah. You’re invited for on behalf of Sarah. He would say, yeah, Sarah. I’ve been politics a long time, and I always say Don’t compare me against the almighty, compare me against the alternative. And that is what a campaign is about.

It’s a choice. No one’s perfect. And it’s a choice. Now what’s unique? I don’t know what you call them, but like friends of mine in politics call them the double haters.

Double doubters. We call them double doubters. Okay.

That’s a little better. I feel like double haters seems like my kids not to use the word hate and I feel ill. Yeah. So the double doubters, right? Like the people who were just like, they don’t like either of them.

And those people, I think, you would agree. Need to turn out for Joe Biden. Right? Cause most of them may not be excited about him, but to your point, we’ll just be like, well, yeah, he’s better than Trump. Yeah.

He needs them.

Yeah. I’m gonna just drop one of my central thesis on the upcoming debate, which is that we are not building a pro Joe Biden coalition. We are building an anti trump coalition. And while I’ll just throw out one other thing, because I’m gonna do a whole episode about this, but, like, this is why the no label situation is so dangerous. Yes.

Because they don’t win Democrats and they don’t win Trump voters, but they do win the double doubters who will go for Biden sort of, you know, I don’t wanna say gun to head. But, like, when it’s in the thing, you have to make the choice. But if you give them a third party option, they’ll take it. Okay. So I wanna talk about how voters feel specifically about the economy right now because I think this is one of Joe Biden’s, like, big vulnerability.

Places. Now my pal, Jonathan Last, who I do with this podcast with me is just like ongoing fight where he’s like telling me how the macroeconomic picture is great and to be clear. People do sometimes in the focus group talk about how it’s improving, but there’s still so much angst among Democrats and our focus groups are on the economy. Let’s listen.

Economy wise, you know, the rents are atrocious. You know, and I just feel like there’s no cushion for anybody. So I’m disappointed in the fact of his lack of being aggressive.

I think on paper, there are have been many gains under Joe’s administration, but I think the reality is is that the only thing that you hear about now is income inequality and the struggles, particularly for younger people.

Like, take gas for instance. I mean, it was extremely high before I think it was, like, almost five dollars before. And then he came down, and he was like, okay, we’re we’re getting better. But now it’s like, it seems like it’s slowly just going back up and mean, I own my house, but I know renting. It just seems like everything is just so unattainable.

In the inner city like Philadelphia, like my rent is constantly going up, and I’m not making more money. So it’s just harder to, like, survive new, even going grocery shopping, everything is just, like, way more expensive.

Well, I mean, as much chaos as we’ve seen in the last election, this is for me, so I think the country is stable enough that we can carry on with having reliable and gig elections. So that’s not too much of a worry. It’s more the the money size. There’s just pockets as we keep showing up where money is needed and we constantly complain that we don’t have enough money to go around.

JBL and I just fight about this because he’s like, well, let me tell you about all these data points. And I’m like, okay. Well, let me tell you about what I hear from voters. Like, they’ll even say, like, yeah, maybe things are proving or they’ll know that someone’s told them that things are supposedly approving, but they’re not feeling it. And JBL basically blames them for not feeling it, and I think that’s probably not gonna be a winning political strategy.

So what do you think about the economy and just how that’s gonna play in the election?

I think they need to come to a draw in it. Right? But look, I I think in a weird way this election on the economy reminds me a bit of twenty twelve when the economy was much worse. Right? But Obama was running for reelection.

I don’t know what his numbers were on the economy at this point, but I think they were probably pretty bad, or right where Joe Biden’s are. The challenge here, I’m gonna say something very obvious, but I found this throughout my political career. You don’t get credit for making things less bad. And in some ways, when you’re coming out of an economic downturn, whether it was the recession, or COVID and the impacts on the supply chain that impact things like rent Yep. When you’re explaining it, you’re also not winning.

I’ve learned that. But, like, and this is not a critique of the voters. This is just people are experiencing and talking about things they’re living in their daily lives. And you could argue with these people Well, okay, your rent’s up, but, like, you know, we gave you money during COVID so you could pay groceries and, like, pay your rent. And, like, we gave it to you for a really long time.

And also we did, you know, these other things to lower the price of gas. It’s like people are like, I don’t care. I’m just thinking about my week to week, right? That’s human. You have to be very sober and clear about that in politics.

Okay? The other thing is like data does not move voters. I am with you. A hundred percent data. People are like data.

What do I care about the GDP? We learned this with the Affordable Care Act and the selling of the Affordable Care Act. In the early days we sold it, you probably remember this. As the bending the cost curve,

which is like stuff. Super good messaging.

Right. Which is like lowering the cost for people. Right? That didn’t work. There was a lot of opposition to it.

It really started to work while people don’t like things being taken away from them a, so that helped. But b, when we started pulling out the pieces, and people were like, oh, wait. Yeah. That thing where I can keep my kids under twenty five on health care, I like that thing. Or, like, preexisting conditions.

Joe Biden, his superpower is not speech giving. Right? And he gave a great speech on democracy, and he has given some great speeches. His superpower is not that. His superpower is empathy and his superpower

is actually caring deeply to

his soul about workers. And, you know, this is why him going to the picket line and, like, being with auto workers, that is who he is. Right? Donald Trump being with, like, people who are non union workers and trying to do a visual event. I mean, that is the contrast right there.

Right? So it’s finding moments that people can see the connection and the humanity and how he actually is feeling people’s pain. He’s been writing op eds about raising the minimum wage and like workers’ rights since before I was born. And if that is the core of what they can convince people of, that’s how to do it. I wish I knew.

I think they wish they knew why people don’t understand and digest the economic accomplishments, but I think some of it is that leading with data people actually still Sarah Longwell. They’re spending a lot of their paid media on the economy and the economic message for good reason. But, yeah, there’s still ways to go there for sure as you saw in your focus groups.

So don’t let me forget. I wanna ask you this thing you just said about. He’s been writing these policies since before we were born.

Yeah.

I wanna talk about potentially how to turn the agent to an asset. Yeah. But we’re not at age yet. I’ve gotta talk about immigration first.

The Dark Brandon strategy is what I shorthand my thoughts on this. When you, like, turn it around to a string?

Yes. I would love to just sit on podcasts and have you and I just, like, think up strategies that this is, like, I listen to this stuff and I get so scared because democracy is gonna be on the line and, like, There are liabilities here, and, like, we have got to strategically figure out ways around them. That that’s not exactly what I’m supposed to be doing here.

So no. No. No. It’s all good. I love talking to you.

It’s like interesting. Okay. Keep going. Sorry.

So so this is another one of these things where I’m like, oh, this is like such a pickle for Joe Biden. Because you hear people and they are frustrated about immigration,

but

they’re not always frustrated about immigration for the same reasons.

Yes.

Some people think that more should be done about the border, and some people think he’s being too tough at the border, which we actually heard in one of our recent focus groups. Let’s listen.

He’s got some of the major milestones, but the stuff that he didn’t really tackle hard. One was, integration, assistant languishing. I, myself, as an immigrant to this country.

Trump was definitely raising this big hoo about doing the whole, build the wall, and they built certain pieces of the wall in certain states, but I feel like the situation overall has not improved. You still have immigrants trying to get in or out or do whatever. You still have children that have been separated from their families that have not been placed back with parents, it’s still a huge mess, but it’s almost like it’s more of a quiet mess. Like, they’re not talking about it as much. That’s the part that I’m kinda disappointed by because that was one of the main things I was looking for Joe Biden and his administration to do.

I was expecting more humanity. I don’t know. I mean, it’s a bias. I feel like we’re the good guys. What are we doing?

And I feel like the other thing is is that the Republicans are always one step ahead of us in playing dirty at these games. And this whole idea of shipping all these immigrants to large metropolitan centers like New York and causing the immigration problem to here in liberal or sanctuary cities is just like using our own stuff against us to make the immigration problem become our problem as opposed to one that we viewed as Trump’s issue.

Okay. Now I just wanna say, we chose these sections specifically because not that they’re incoherent exactly, but You can see the muddled way in which people are frustrated by immigration.

But,

like, it’s not like they’re quite sure how they’re frustrated by it. Like, they know they want us to be nicer to immigrants. They know we don’t wanna separate kids from families at the border. But also we’ve got an immigration problem, and we know that it’s mean of them to ship migrants other places, but also that’s making them our problem instead of I guess, Trump’s public. The incoherence of the Democratic party on immigration to me, I think, has just been a problem for a long time.

So talk to me about how Democrats think about messaging on immigration and actual policies too.

Yo, I was gonna say, can we, like, go down a nerdy policy rabbit holier for a second. I will I will not go deep in it for long. Immigration, I find it to be one of the hardest policy issues, and I think a lot of policy experts would say that as well. In part because the solution is both. The solution is more security and updated security that’s modernized and also a more humane way of addressing asylum seekers at the border.

People who like one do not like the other. Right? It’s also an issue that is so mired in dysfunction, frankly. Like, there’s a bill that Joe Biden proposed this first day in office that should be supported. I mean, there can be such agreements about components of it by most people in the senate and in the country because it would do both of those things.

Right, by making it more of like an electronic security system, a wall, by the way, even if you’re like the person who wants to stop people from coming to the country, does not work. We’re in twenty twenty three. So it’s more of a modern way of addressing and using smart security and technology while also figuring out a more humane system for people to seek asylum. Asylum seekers who have valid claims should be able to seek asylum in the United States. That’s the humanity piece.

Our processing, our funding for it, how the system functions is so broken and outdated. It’s like everybody thinking it’s horrible. It is horrible. Right? I think that there is and you caught in those focus groups kind of the different emotions.

And I understand both of these emotions. Right? You see these families leaving difficult impossible violent situations in South America, in Mexico and other places just seeking refuge in the United States. That is who we are. We have the statue of liberty.

That is who we want to be in our souls. I think most people, even with policy disagreements, feel that way.

Totally.

There’s also a fear that people have. And sometimes it’s the same people who have that to your point. Right? A fear of what the impact of additional migrants will do. They’re gonna lose their job.

Their kids are at risk. Their community is at risk. Are there cases of people who are bad actors who come across our border? Of course, there are. Right?

Of course, there are. The vast majority are not. Right? And this is where I think there’s a bit of a right wing ecosystem, blame that should be placed here because if you look back. I mean, I did a whole read on this.

So, like, this is very much in my mind of, like, the origin of post nine eleven, right, of this, like, fear of Muslims. Right? It was first fear of Muslims, and then it was fear of people coming across the border. And then it was like it’s like this fear of frankly Bulwark and brown people that are going to do you harm. And of course, people are watching clips of it on fox news.

They’re going to be scared. Right? Even though that’s not based in the reality of what they should be fearful about or this fentanyl issue, that was a prominent thing in the debate. Right? Where like the facts of fentanyl, it’s a huge problem.

The majority of people who bring it over are legal citizens. Or who are coming here legally. It’s not a problem linked to migrants or people who are like poor coming from other countries. They’re not stashing fentanyl, bringing it across the border. That’s not the issue.

Anyway, I think the challenge with this is that there is a fear of finding compromise on immigration from frankly, I think most sides. Yeah. And you can speak to, like, what the Republican I don’t even mean the Trump Republican side. I mean, like, the fear of of seeming like you are weak on the border by agreeing to updates to asylum processing people who are running as Republicans, I don’t mean Magra Republicans. Like, don’t want that in an ad.

I assume. Right? Yeah. But if you’re supporting a compromise bill that might have to be part of it. And then on the other side, I think there is certainly fear among Democrats of supporting additional border security.

Even though changes in modernizing border security would have to be a part of a bill because it’s also needed. So there’s fear of the politics of it. It’s so dysfunctional and makes it kind of almost impossible to move forward on. I don’t mean to be dark about this, but this is like one of the hardest issues. Where the politics almost prevents it from being possible.

It is deeply frustrating because you just talked about the politics making it possible. But at the front side, you were like, your proposed solution of it’s actually, like, more funding, better security, as well as a more compassionate approach to bringing people over. Like, That is the solution. Like a solution exists in the way that we sort of compromise that it is doable, and the only thing preventing us is that Both sides sort of wanna keep whacking each other with this issue. And there’s just not the political will to do anything real about it.

And it’s almost like because when was the last time there was a real potential progress, twenty thirteen.

It was like the gang of eight.

Yeah. Or, like, even before that, it was like, o five or whatever. Well, like, it was like Ted Kennedy. Yeah. He’s been dead for fourteen years.

It’s a sad thing. It’s like we used to say when people would ask us about this, like, Joe Biden does not expect that his proposed bill is gonna be a final bill. Like Republicans wouldn’t even come talk to him about it.

Yeah. I

mean, it’s like there’s no willingness to even have a conversation.

The post stroke world to has made it like to your point, like, there is no Republican who can look they are giving an inch out basically guns or immigration. Even though in both those issues, there is widespread bipartisan interest. In there being sort of some solution arrived at. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, let’s not get lost in that we

didn’t solve that one, but,

yeah, when

I gotta solve it today, but we should talk more about it. I feel like we could solve it. Alright. So now I’m just gonna get into the the nub of thing, which is by twenty twenty four. And what people think about that?

Let’s listen.

It’s not really his age. With me, it’s more his help.

It’s mental capacity.

His mental capacity is a lot of older people out there, you know, still active and functioning and, you know, speaking eloquently and things of that nature. But I think his health is the thing in this mental capacity has to come into play. And I would like to see someone a bit younger, a bit more assertive

I’ll bring Trump up again, you know, age wise, they’re up there. But even though he’s a Bulwark doesn’t falter. He doesn’t mumble. He doesn’t fall off the steps. I mean, Biden does.

So I think it’s a matter of, you know, I don’t think he has enough confidence.

Generally incumbents, you know, have the upper hand. However, you know, I I don’t feel like he’s the best candidate that we could Probably put out there?

I think we just need, like, a younger person. We just feel like the whole government is run by, like, older white men. And I just feel like we just need somebody younger who’s still almost kind of like with the times

Okay. So this is, again, from a very recent group, but, I mean, the age thing, it’s been funny to me to watch the democratic shattering classes, like, start to freak out in the last, like, months over the age question. I was like, voters have been talking about this. For a couple of years now. So, like, I don’t know why we just decided this is a problem because guess what?

It’s one of those things that’s just gonna keep going in the same direction, not solvable. If if you think this is a dumb idea, tell me, but as me workshopping, how Joe Biden, you know, fixes with this thing that he can’t change, which is basically you lean into it. Right? And you say, Yeah. I’m old.

And you know what I’ve done? I’ve been fighting for this since before you were born. And I’d and almost like, Clint eastwood and Grand Terino level cranky about it and just kind of own it. I think this idea and you kinda did this too. It’s like, well, they were in the college at the same time.

Like, You hear from the voters. They are aware that you can tell them that Donald Trump and Joe Biden are roughly the same age. They do not think they seem a lot they think that that Trump in his evil ish kind of ways is like mean and a bully and aggressive and Joe Biden looks a little bit like an old man. And so I guess that’s my question. It’s like, how does Joe Biden lean into this?

And should he just acknowledge upfront the age question and talk about it as a good thing.

Yes. I I think I said this earlier. It says, like, my view on this is, like, the dark Ron DeSantis strategy, which they did so effective. Right? Remember there was this whole thing of let’s go, Brandon, that people were saying, which was attacking Joe Biden, and it was becoming this kind of Dope Biden’s week, look at all these people saying this to him, and it was an internet thing, and they kind of flipped it.

That I give great credit to the social media team at the White House, who, by the way, has no money. They just have to be creative to make it like dark Brandon has like glasses, and he’s kind of a bad ass. Right? And every time they can have a dark Brandon moment, is a win. And on the age thing, yes, I think it’s part, Clintissewood, and part like humor.

Yeah.

Humor is a very effective way of taking the power out of something. Yeah. And you know, he’d have to come up with something that’s a way of delivering it. But again, you’d have to be kind of over the top about it. Right?

Like, you know, about how you use humor, just like how you use Clint East, what we need to funny Clint wood. Is that possible? And you know, the thing is is even though it’s only been a discussion for a couple months, in the White House, they’ve been well aware. This is like showing up as a focus groupie For years, right? Joe Biden is eighty one.

Nothing is changing about that. This is so interesting when you hear people’s explanations because it’s like they’re like, it’s not age. And you’re like, It is age. You just don’t wanna say age. And, like, that’s okay.

It’s probably unconscious. There is nothing that suggests he’s senile or like, not with it. I mean, this is, like, I worked for him, but also, like, he said never had a bad medical report. He’s always, like, in great health I mean knock on wood, but like there’s no evidence. It’s like people need to justify it for themselves in some capacity.

But he is eighty one. And that’s a reality. That they can change even though the other things are not based in fact. But I think it’s like really diving in and embracing it.

It is funny to listen to Democrats talk about his age because they are. They’re like, it’s not that he’s old. It’s just, you know, it’s this. Whereas, like, the Republicans are like, He’s already dead, and they are they are weekend at burning him. Oh.

They’re spoon feeding him oatmeal all the time, and he’s lost all his faculties. Like, Kamala Harris is already running everything by

Well, and this is, as you know, kind of, an effective, and I, I mean, kind of in an evil effective way, thing that’s been being pushed online for years, you know, that he’s it’s not age is just a fact. It’s that like he’s senile like the tripping up the stairs. Like, people don’t even necessarily know who’s like which party’s in charge of government. Right? Like the fact that people know he tripped up the stairs, is because it’s been pushed effectively that he’s like losing his faculties.

Yeah. You know?

I trip up the stairs every day.

Me too. I I trip up the stairs. I wear sneakers because I fall. Yeah. I spill stuff on my stuff all the time.

Gotcha. And also the other thing that Joe Biden is like, people have been following him for a long time. He’s always been long winded and always been somebody who kinda like sometimes trips over words By the way, he’s dyslexic. It’s like, this is who he is.

Yeah. I just there is this thing, the way the Democrats talk about it, that I find They’re sort of sweet, but they they’re rooting for him, but they’re nervous. Like, they’re nervous when he talks, they’re nervous when he walks. Like, they’re sitting there going, don’t fall, don’t fall, don’t fall. Get it out, get the sentence out.

And, like, I think that is something that sits with them. It’s not mean, but it it’s just,

they’re worried.

And it leads me to sort of the next piece, which is that I’m not sure a vice president has ever mattered more as an elector issue. And I think one of the reasons Republicans push the age, the senility, whatever, is because they know that Kamala Harris is actually less popular than Joe Biden. I mean, Nikki Haley has been doing this, like, aggressively. Like, we’re not running against Joe Biden. We’re running against Kamala Harris.

Let’s listen to some demos talk about Harris.

I hear nothing about her at all. Yeah. Where is she? Yeah. I hear nothing about her at all.

Yeah. She was just in Philly. Yeah. She was in Philly.

She shouldn’t say that.

I didn’t even know that.

She can get on an issue and talk if you give her a chance.

When, Obama and Biden were in office together, you could see that both of them really acted as a team. For some reason, I don’t get the idea that by Biden and Harris are acting as much of a team as Biden and Obama was. It’s not giving me the same energy like they had before.

It would be great to have a black woman president. That would be amazing. However, she’s really quiet like, we don’t know that much about what she’s doing or, like, what she yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know anything much about what she’s doing at all.

So that’s why I would feel like well, I don’t know.

I think now the biggest question on people’s minds is show a capable of of going through the next term fully. So we have to rely on the possibility of Kamala being in place at some point if that time does come. Per exposure on the gun panel, it’s a nice win win, I guess, for some, you know, she does get more exposure because it’s a highly filed issue. And if it goes to crap, then, you know, they have the VP to blame, which wouldn’t really matter. So but she does need to be exposed, and people need to kind of feel more confident that should something go alright as you can easily adjust and transition to that position?

This was a funny exchange where it was like, Where is she at on Sarah? They were like, she was just here. She was just here. Yeah. See her?

I guess my question they’ve obviously gotta be thinking about how they improve her standing going into this. And, like, Vai isn’t there more of the buddy comedy type thing that Obama and Biden were able to do or it seems like they actually like each other.

I mean, I do think there’s a little bit of like looking back. I’m not sure people were focused on where Biden was or what he was doing leading up to the reelect, right, to go back to your point. You know, Paris and and Biden have lunch just like Biden and Obama did. Right? They do the same things they did.

She’s in the same meetings that Biden was in, but I don’t think there was I don’t recall being like the same level of where is Joe Biden, even though Joe Biden was not being covered in the news hardly at all when he was vice president. Right? It’s so interesting listening because I feel like people’s reasoning differs. It’s like how do you solve that? It may mean that, like, if you’re sitting in the White House, right now.

And I bet you they’re thinking about this. Like, how do you show them? There’s always a photographer in every meeting. Right? So, like, more pictures of them in the meetings they’re already attending.

Right? More pictures of them doing things together that maybe is something that’s important that isn’t typically important, right? Because most people don’t typically care who the vice president is, and typically the vice president isn’t under the same level of attack. So there’s obviously a relationship there. So that is an interesting thing that maybe could be solved a little bit visually.

The exchange was so interesting for exactly the reasons you just said. It’s like, I never see her. What is she doing? Well, she was just here. She’s a good talker.

It’s like, I didn’t know. It’s like, are we supposed to, like, knock on your door? You know, sometimes it’s like, you could literally Google vice president, Harris, and find out what she’s doing. If you’re very curious, but people want it to be delivered to them and I get that. I do think they have a challenge that’s multi layered.

Which is like, there is an element of this that is Joe Biden is old. Oh, and by the way, And this is interesting why it’s coming from Nikki Haley in part. Kamala Harris is a black woman. Did you notice she’s a black woman? Right?

Like she’s not just like a comforting old white man. She’s a black woman. So, like, be scared of that. There is an element of that. Democrats don’t think it that way, but I do think that that is something that is part of the messaging from the right wing.

And there’s a layer of, yes, did it even have a good relationship and that visually you can solve a little bit? And then there’s a layer of how do you play up her strengths? Cause clearly of an issue you need to address of people’s confidence. I do think what they’re doing and we’ll see like how this works or if it’s effective. Her going to college campuses is a very good idea because she is very good in those environments.

You know, she went to Howard whenever that was a couple ago. And the coverage of that was very good for her and them. I mean, you had kind of students who were like, I liked her. She was great. Right?

And them doing a college campus tour this fall is I think very smart. It’s almost early to do it, but it’s smart that they’re doing it. Then I think they just have to figure out from there, do we do more of that? Do we do more of something else? It’s like, do you put her in ads honestly?

Like, I, you know, do you like showcase them together in ads. Is that important enough or is that not a value add? Like, these are some of the things you weigh on a campaign.

Yeah. Well, I guess we’ve still got four hundred days to keep talking about it. So it is true. Like, we’re all sort of demanding because the stakes are so high that this sort of be solved for all now. And it is hard to keep in mind that, like, we know who the Republican nominee is gonna be, but, like, take what the voters still don’t know that.

Like I said, we are still a long way away. Okay. Jan Saki, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thanks to all of you for listening to the Focus Secret Podcast.

Remember to rate, review, and subscribe on Secret Podcast, and subscribe to the Bulwark on YouTube and catch Jenasaki every Sunday and Monday on MSNBC. We’ll be back next week with an episode you are not gonna want to miss. See you guys.