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Rob Reiner and Dan Partland: God & Country

February 23, 2024
Notes
Transcript
Christian nationalism is not only a threat to democracy, but also to Christianity itself. Prominent evangelicals, like David French and Russell Moore, break it all down in a new documentary, “God & Country.” Charlie Sykes is also in the film. Reiner and Partland take it to 11 with Tim Miller today.

show notes:

https://godandcountrythemovie.com/

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This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:09

    Hello, and welcome to the Friday Bulwark podcast. I’m your host Tim Miller. It’s the Friday show because we have a weekend edition. The South Carolina primaries tomorrow, and we’ve got a really special show coming your way. So check back tomorrow for that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:21

    I am delighted and honored to be here today with Rob Reiner. He directed don’t know. You might have heard of when Harry met Sally, Princess bride, or this is spinal tap. You might have seen a show called All in the family. He was Meethead, and now.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:35

    He is the co producer of a documentary god and country alongside Dan Hartland. He’s also with us, director of god and country, He also directed the film unfit the psychology of Donald Trump. Gentlemen welcome, Dan. How did you survive getting inside the psychology of Donald Trump?
  • Speaker 2
    0:00:51

    I’m still getting over it. It’s part of, you know, it’s part of my ongoing mission to heal. You know, I made this film instead.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:57

    That’s good. We’ve got a sponsor better help that you might wanna look into. I gotta tell you the one thing when I was watching the documentary that struck me at the beginning, and I’m sure I must have noticed it. When it was happening live, that there was so much happening on January sixth. And in the context of this film about Christian Jonathan Last, the flags, the Jesus saves, the Jesus’ king flags.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:20

    It really just hit me about how intertwined the issues were of the insurrection in Christian nationalism. And so I was I was hoping you might start by talking about that a little bit. Maybe Danny can kick us off.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:32

    Sure. Well, you know, it’s it definitely goes all the way back to the genesis of the project, which is that Rob had first contacted me about doing a film about Christian Jonathan Last in just right before the holiday break in December of twenty twenty. And, you know, he passed me a book. I read it power worshipers by Catherine Stewart. I read it over the break, and we had plans to meet on, I believe, January seventh, Zoom meeting.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:57

    And so on January sixth, I was at my desk making notes about what, you know, a film about Christian nationalism would be about while I was watching the certification of the vote on the other screen. So to me, you know, had I not just spent the holiday break kind of doing as deep a dive as I could and immersing myself in that space. I’m not sure I would have seen it either. But what was notable was watching the TV coverage was how many images, symbols, even, you know, chants and prayers and things were evident there and how the, commentary was not noticing it at all.
  • Speaker 3
    0:02:36

    Yeah. It’s interesting too, Tim, because if you look at, January fifth, there were a lot of rallies prior to the, insurrection where Jesus and god and all of that was was evoked by many people. I mean, you know, we had Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all these people were ginning up all this. You know, we’re sent here by god. It’s this god’s mission and all that.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:00

    And it’s interesting that you point out that you didn’t notice it because I think most people, unless they looked at it, they might not notice it. And if you remember when the January six Committee did its report, there was no mention at all of Christian Jonathan Last in their report. And I think that was a conscious decision that they made because it’s delicate.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:23

    Right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:23

    You don’t wanna be trashing Christianity because it’s a great religion that has done great for the world. And that was our goal in the film. It’s not to bash Christianity. And in fact, we don’t. What we do is the exact opposite.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:38

    We talk about Christian nationalism is not only a threat to democracy, but is the threat to Christianity itself. And all of these very respected devout conservative Christian leaders in the film talk specifically about that. So I think it’s easy to have missed the fact that, the insurrection was in a large part fueled by, the fervor of Christian nationalism.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:05

    Yeah. I’d like to hear you, kind of explore that more. Right? The difference between the kind of dangerous unchristian Christian Jonathan Last and and sort of earnest belief. There are a lot of friends at the Blork pot of the show, including Charlie Sykes, by the way, and David French, but, Russell Moore, who I just love and admire so deeply that’s been on this pot a bunch.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:24

    He he had a line that I pulled out about, you know, there’s this difference between having Christian social beliefs like being anti abortion and this perverted form that is a valorization of power. That was one of his phrases. And I I was just curious how you guys kind of walked that line of, you know, talking about the threat versus you know, people who have deeply held religious views.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:48

    We were schooled by some of these leaders. I mean, I I was raised in a secular household and so was Dan. So This was eye opening to us. We both approached this project as a political project that there was this movement that had started certainly back in the fifties. I became very much aware of it during the seventies and eighties when Norman Leer launched people for the American way.
  • Speaker 3
    0:05:12

    And this whole notion of trying to obliterate the separation of church and state. I was aware of it, but I didn’t think of it as you know, something that might be a danger to Christianity. This came to light, you know, when we interviewed and Dan Dan interviewed, all these these great Christian leaders who pointed that out to us. They’re the ones that took this documentary in a a direct that we didn’t think about. I don’t think we thought about, Dan, and when we started, we were thinking of it as a political thing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:45

    Yeah. I mean, look, this is the central thing that’s really hard to get your head around is where where does the pursuit of your own religious belief in trying to, like, manifest those values in American culture and American law. Where does that end? And, you know, as a democratic goal and cross over into an anti democratic goal. And it sort of proceeds along two channels, really.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:09

    The first is a democratic channel, which is like, yes. Let’s go out and try to rally people to our ideas. That’s a good and valuable thing to do. It’s the art of persuasion. It’s what politics is all about.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:21

    Even within that half, there is there is an important protection. I mean, we do have the first amendment in the United States. Which means that even if you believe in something really central to your character and you can motivate a big voting block to vote for it, it still can’t write religion into American law. Right? So there is there’s the democratic part, which I think we want everybody to engage in.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:44

    Bring your values to manifest in your politics. Okay. But you have to actually make the sale to people. I can’t have the reason for a law and policy be because my faith says so. You have to actually make the case by persuasion, Martin Luther King.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:01

    We need to end segregation because it’s against human dignity. We need to end segregation because in the interest of justice. Not because it’s what my faith says so. So that’s a that’s a slippery slope. But the thing to really look at are the anti democratic means that this movement is using.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:18

    And that’s totally unacceptable. Obviously, it’s everything, you know, everybody at gerrymandering has been around for a long time. Both sides have done it. But gerrymandering, voter suppression. Now we have, you know, actual violence in order to try to enact a political agenda.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:33

    So that’s the real danger the movement. I think it’s you can see it really clearly when you look at how unpopular Christian Jonathan Last beliefs are versus how effective they’ve been in actually getting them into law, of course, most notably with abortion policy at the moment. But there’s a lot of examples of it. We’re patently unpopular things are still able to be implemented in in American law.
  • Speaker 3
    0:07:55

    And you can cloak your beliefs in the idea that this is god’s will And this is what god tells us to do. And that will give you permission to resort to violence. If you firmly believe that this is what god wants. And so that’s where you cross the line. You know, persuasion is one thing, but you don’t persuade people at the point of a gun or, you know, or or through an insurrection.
  • Speaker 3
    0:08:22

    So that’s where we have to draw the line and you know, Christian nationalists believe that there is no separation of church and state, and this is god’s will. That America should be a white Christian nation. That is ordained by god. Well, you know, you may believe that. Fine.
  • Speaker 3
    0:08:41

    You can believe whatever you want, but you can’t force other people to those beliefs and particularly not to use violence as a way of, you know, convincing them.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:50

    Yeah. I think about the violent side of it also as the negative argument that you’re making. You’re you’re talking about how to make a positive argument for Christian Jonathan Last government, but I think about how these leaders talk, these wannabe leaders, talk about America as it is. You guys cover that we awake in tour, that, you know, Mike Flynn and these guys are at. And if you watch these events, I went to one of them in South Sarah Longwell, and it is all about how you know, the they are taking the country away from you.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:18

    The country’s going to hell. They’ve stolen it, and this is at where it ties into the democracy part. They stolen the country for you. You guys are really the silent majority. And to me, like, the logical end of that is violence.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:29

    Right? Like, if you really believe that the leader, the Joe Biden, and Democrats in the deep state stole the election from you and are ruining the country and are moving it away from god, well, then what choice would you have besides violence?
  • Speaker 3
    0:09:42

    That’s right. And if you believe that god has ordained this, and god is telling you that this is what you need to do, then, you know, all bets are off.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:52

    Yeah. And I think, you know, that’s it’s interesting because I’ve heard that same argument, that same framing should say that you’re making there used as a defense of the attack on the capital is that, of course, I think it’s a bad premise. But, of course, this is a democratic argument that if you really believed that the election was stolen, wouldn’t it be your responsibility as a citizen? To, you know, to rise up and make sure that the proper results were certified. And, you know, I totally understand that thinking.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:22

    I think the problem with it framing it as democratic, I think that’s just pushing the the hypothetical too far. There was ample evidence shared with everybody There were plenty of democratic processes, judicial processes to go through all of that and at the end and say this is still democratic. I think is absurd because I think really what was happening, and the film, so, you know, just inherently points this out, is that it reached a point where It didn’t really matter. I don’t really think that people attacking the Capitol. They took it I hate to say it, but on some level, they took it on faith that this was the right thing to do not so much that Trump had actually won it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:07

    But that it kinda became irrelevant, the counting of votes. It became a kind of right and wrong from upon high that they saw a need to respond to.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:16

    Yeah. I think that’s right. And I obviously don’t think that this was a credible reason to to attack the capital. You know, my point is that it’s just kind of the logical conclusion of the ethos.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:25

    Definitely.
  • Speaker 3
    0:11:25

    And that
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:25

    is inevitable. And I think that’s what makes it so dangerous, frankly. Right? And that the people that are peddling it are really playing with fire.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:32

    Definitely. And
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:33

    maybe they wanna be playing with fire because they’re arsonists. Here’s a a more recent, tangible example of what you’re talking about, you guys in the film get into the theological approach, the seven mountain mandate which calls on Christians to impose fundamentalist values in all elements of American life. There’s one clip from it. A short clip I just wanna put in here.
  • Speaker 4
    0:11:55

    Whereas we, the church are god’s governing body on the earth. Whereas, we have been given legal power from Evan and now exercise our authority.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:11

    Yeah. And the Alabama Supreme Court ruling on IVF had a concurring opinion from chief justice Tom Parker, who’s a proponent of the seven Mountain mandate. He wrote that human life could not be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy god in the decision. That, you know, has been in the news this week. The seven Mountain mandate, your sense for how much it’s penetrated and and kind of your thoughts on that, that ruling this week.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:36

    You know, it’s something that’s been out there for a long time and comfortably in the fringe. And I think people felt like they didn’t need to really respond to it or give it air because it was so fringe, but it’s certainly has infiltrated the mainstream. You know, it’s in some Mike Pence talking points, and it’s in Mike Johnson talking points explicitly. They’re definitely the inheritors of of that kind of rhetoric. I mean, my thought about the Alabama case is, like, You know, I’ve been out presenting the film a lot and audiences wanna ask.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:07

    The central question is just how big a threat is it? And you know, it’s hard to contextualize that. And all I can say to that is I think we don’t fully know how big a threat it is, but let’s look at some evidence. Always good to look at the evidence. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:21

    The evidence is we did just have, you know, in the previous election, a violent insurrection at the capital and effort to stop the president from being seated. We do have Mike Johnson in the, you know, second in line to the presidency, a guy who is, overtly grasp onto these things. You know, I don’t think that being anti abortion doesn’t make you a Christian nationalist, but we do have now young girls, rape victims being forced by the state to carry babies to term. And now we have this question of the IVF of maybe IVF should go away. So if you’re to look at what evidence we have of this ideology despite its unpopularity through a political process actually succeeding in accomplishing its goals, I think there is starting to be a lot of evidence of that.
  • Speaker 3
    0:14:07

    You know, you also have out there as plain as day, one of the candidates Donald Trump is running embracing this Christian nationalism. It’s part of his plan is, putting in place people who are going to act on that. You know, with the twenty twenty five. And that whole idea is to say we’re going to inculcate Christian Jonathan Last into American politics. And so what does that mean?
  • Speaker 3
    0:14:39

    You know, what does that mean? That means the end of this wonderful two hundred and forty nine year experiment that we’ve had. You’re basically saying we’re gonna become a theocratic autocracy. We’re gonna just discard the constitution. We’re gonna discard all of these norms that we have because we believe god has told us this is the way America should govern.
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:03

    So, like Dan says, we don’t know where this leads. And we don’t know if Donald Trump loses this election, What will happen as a result?
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:13

    Yeah. I mean, you guys kinda cover this, but it’s the one area where I just wanna push back a little bit. I think Trump is uniquely dangerous because he doesn’t read as Christian Jonathan Last. I totally accept your point that the policies that a lot of people around him are promising would certainly qualify, but he doesn’t read as it. He’s not a Christian naturalist.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:33

    Right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:34

    He’s a vessel for these people, and he’s more than happy to take on their support. If it means number one, he can get elected. Number two, he can stay out of jail. He’s not about any kind of ideology. Let’s get for sure.
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:47

    That’s great. I mean, Dan made the movie about the guy. He’s just gonna see a path. Right. But He will embrace this.
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:53

    And they, as the Christian nationalist movement Will Saletan, well, he’s like Cyrus, the King. You know, he’s flawed. He’s this. But he’s our vessel, and he’s more than happy to embrace it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:04

    The vessel works because of because he’s able to reach out to people that are really grossed out by Christian nationalism really. And a lot of these trump voters are not Christian. I look at Doug Masteriana, right, in Pennsylvania, he ran this kind of really authentic Christian Jonathan Last campaign, and he gets annihilated. Right? Because there’s a big part of these voters who are cool with the nationalist part, by the way.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:26

    They’re cool with the authoritarian part. The the Christian part weirds them out a little bit. And so I do wonder if that me makes the threat a little less serious than than more of the secular nationalism.
  • Speaker 3
    0:16:37

    You would think it would because when you boil it down, the vast majority of Christians are not Christian nationalists.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:46

    Right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:16:47

    It is the biggest religion in this country. So maybe you have twenty percent of the country. Twenty percent of the country is in favor of this kind of Christian Jonathan Last white Christian state that we should be in. That’s enough to win an election. It may not be enough for Doug Mastertonio in in Pennsylvania to win.
  • Speaker 3
    0:17:07

    But all you have to do is move a few votes in five or six states and somebody who could lose an election by ten million last time he lost by seven could wind up as president if you have a a very well organized, well funded, and powerful machine that can gin up the votes and suppressed other votes in those five or six states.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:29

    I think it’s a fair point, Tim, that there’s probably some vulnerability in Trump’s support because, sure, if he started losing the Christian nationalist vote, if that seemed alienated or if the regular just old fashioned white nationalist vote, seem to be uncomfortable with the Christian stuff. But, you know, there’s no evidence that either of those groups would ever you know, this is one of the profound things about our politics in general, is that all sides have been able to swallow candidates they don’t like because of their commitment to an overall larger agenda. So, I mean, I think the idea that people would leave Trump when he if he was the only Republican. These two groups aren’t. But again, you go back to It’s not a national election.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:14

    Yeah. Sure.
  • Speaker 3
    0:18:15

    Tom can’t win a national election. There’s no chance in the world he can win a national election. But he doesn’t have to. If he can win in Arizona, we all know the states, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:18:28

    Then he wins. He won two thousand sixteen by seventy nine thousand votes in three states. So that’s all you need. And if you go into those states, which are all purple. They’re all on the barge in, and you can get your vote out and suppress the other guy.
  • Speaker 3
    0:18:43

    You can win. And we know leaders who win with twenty percent of the vote. We know that can happen.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:52

    One other thing I was struck by It’s kind of obvious. Right? The idea that Donald Trump is the worst possible representation of this view in his personal life. But I’m curious, you know, one of the ministers you guys interviewed said that when he was a young evangelical minister, he would use Trump as a sermon illustration for everything a Christian should not be. And when you guys were doing these interviews, What were, you know, these pastors, these religious leaders who were willing to talk, what did they think?
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:19

    Just about how insane it was that they had lost their their flock, you know, to somebody that was so manifestly unchristian.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:27

    Well, look, I think the particularly the Christian conservatives in the film. I mean, they have all of my admiration. It’s very, very courageous for them to speak up and to, you know, add their voice here. I do think that they mostly broke with the political agenda over Trump. So I think that that makes it complicated, right, for for some of them.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:51

    I think there are a lot of things on the political agenda that they still feel very, very, very comfortable with. But, you know, again, that’s the larger question for me of what frustrates me about the way the electorate is acting right now is I think There just are tons and tons of people, millions and millions, tens of millions who are deeply uncomfortable with Trump, but somehow believe that even though they hate him, they think he’s a danger to democracy that it’s important to stay in lockstep with the political agenda. I mean, that’s my read of it. I don’t know. Maybe they like him more than they say.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:23

    Yeah. I wanna take a little personal privilege and ask Rob a couple of non Christian Jonathan Last and questions. But is there anything else in these conversations that you didn’t expect or that really, really struck you as notable or especially alarming?
  • Speaker 3
    0:20:35

    Well, the, like I said before, the thing that really struck me was to hear respected conservative Christian leaders like Russell Moore, like David French, like Phil Visher, talk about how dangerous this was to Christianity and how far afield this Christian Jonathan Last movement has separated themselves from the teachings of Jesus. I mean, I’m a secular person, but I’ve read a lot about Jesus. I I went through a very tough time in my life. And I latched on to what he talked about, which is love thy neighbor, do unto others. And this movement, it doesn’t have any connection to that.
  • Speaker 3
    0:21:15

    It’s the exact opposite of everything that Jesus taught. So that to me was surprising to see, you know, Christian leaders talk about that very thing. That Christian nationalism is not about Christianity. It’s a political movement. It’s not a religious move.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:31

    Yeah. And I think I think the most kind of shocking thing, it’s very simple, but hard to, you know, until you get your head around it. It’s hard to make this whole movement make sense. But, is the ways in which a lot of American just so much of the Christian story and the American myths have been so fused that Christians have begun to see America as playing a specific god ordained role in human history. Once you start to view it that way.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:05

    Then as Phil Fisher says in the film, then you’ve given your permission really to believe that If democracy gets in the way, democracy has to go. And that’s the chilling thing. And I think when you understand that, you start to see the the reason this movement is just so ferocious, really.
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:23

    Yeah. And they have the art and the iconography to go with it. That was another striking thing from the way this
  • Speaker 3
    0:22:28

    It’s from the top down. This is a leadership movement. Many Christians have been sucked into this, thinking that this is what Jesus wants. Who said that? God said that America is ordained to be a Christian nation?
  • Speaker 3
    0:22:43

    Who who said that?
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:44

    Right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:22:44

    Jesus never even knew that there’s gonna be an America. So you know what I’m saying? They get sucked in and they unwittingly get sucked in and the people who want the power realize that they can move these people with podcast with, you know, on the air, you know, television shows, newspapers that can move these people, and they’ve done it. They’ve done a tremendous job of organizing these people.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:07

    Rob, in another area where kind of art, meets our dystopian political reality. We lost Norman Lehr recently. I’ve been dying to ask you, like, When you have this character Archie bunker, you know, I remember watching it as a kid on reruns on Nick at night and, like, he’s so plainly in the kind of this trumpian manner, right, just like a talk radio, like inch deep kind of bigotry, inch deep, like, unthoughtful. Bigotry, but he has this lovable element for him. Now Trump doesn’t doesn’t have the lovable element to me, but I was wondering how you guys kinda thought about that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:41

    Right? Like, how the balance of this kind of character that had all these awful tweets but was lovable with, like, the real life version of them you know, actually being a lot darker. You know?
  • Speaker 3
    0:23:54

    Well, the they’re dark, certainly in their in their, you know, ideology and their thinking and the racism clearly is dark. This is as ugly as it gets, but what normally I try to do is create a human being. And human beings have all these sides to them. This guy loved his wife. He loved his kid.
  • Speaker 3
    0:24:14

    He had feelings for these people. Trump has no feelings. For anybody.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:18

    Yeah. Right. Exactly. The character was way more human than the human in this instance.
  • Speaker 3
    0:24:23

    Yeah. No. He was a human being, and Norman loved the idea You know, I’ve said this before, but his favorite play was Major Barber by George Menard Shaw. And if you didn’t know that Shaw was a liberal, you went to see that play. There were equal arguments for dove and hawk.
  • Speaker 3
    0:24:38

    And you left the play arguing which is right, the dove side or the hawk side. And that’s what he wanted. He had Archie putting out his point of view. He had my character putting out his point of view. People argued about it, and then forty million people with a shared experience every week would then argue with each other and discuss with each other what was shown on the on the show.
  • Speaker 3
    0:24:59

    And the issues that we talked about, they’re still here. You know, the homophobia, the racism, the the gun issue. I mean, they’re all still with us.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:10

    You’re in New Orleans right now? I have Taping this is spinal tap too. Yes. Everybody everybody, when I told you, you’re coming on, everyone at the Bulwark, all of the bros. They wanna know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:20

    This is spinal tap too. When do they get it? Like, how how excited are we? You know, what’s what where where are we taping in New Orleans? What can you tell us?
  • Speaker 3
    0:25:28

    Well, first of all, I hope their enthusiasm goes to eleven. But, we start shooting March sixth and we’ll be finished you know, sometime in April, and it’ll either be by the end of this year or early part of next year that the film will be out. Oh, it’s forty years since we’ve done the first one, but I think we have a good idea. We’ll see what happens.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:47

    I hope to see you down there on this. Okay. So the pod bros, asked Elizabeth Warren for her dream blunt rotation she would not answer that recently. And so that’s why I wanna close with you, Rob. I would like to know of all the people you’ve worked with.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:59

    If you wanna sit around four people, you and three other people, smoke a blunt. Who’s your rotation? You have a long career. Dan, you can answer this with Christian Jonathan Last. I want your dream blunt rotation with Christian Okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:11

    I gotta queue that up. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:26:13

    I’ve had some people who would never smoke a blunt because I’ve smoked plenty certainly in my lifetime. But Norman Lee was one of my dad, of course. But, you know, I’ve been lucky to, you know, I Albert Brooks is a close friend of mine and Billy Crystal, and Christopher guest who’s in spinal tap. These are people that are very close to me. And, I don’t even have to smoke a blunt to be around them.
  • Speaker 3
    0:26:36

    I like hanging out with
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:38

    Just hang out with them. The crystal and crystal. I forgot. I almost forgot. That was that should have been in your intro.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:42

    You taped the Bulwark crystal and build crystal. That was your number one directorial career achievement. Was it not?
  • Speaker 3
    0:26:48

    Great achievement on my part, putting the two bill crystals together.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:52

    Dan, you get four scariest Christian Jonathan Last. That’s where you get to end us He got blunt rotation. You get scariest Christian nationalists.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:00

    I am dead set against naming names and giving more publicity to people who really don’t who really don’t deserve it, but I we’d like
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:07

    That’s fair.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:07

    We’d like to see a cage match between, a lot of the talking heads in the film and, any number of evangelical, and Christian nationalist Preacher
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:16

    It’s tough. How are you cleansing from spending so much time, you know, with the reawaken tour and in the dark corners of our society?
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:24

    Just a lot of showering, a lot of sage, you know, smudging and, you know, I’m I determined to develop a meditation practice.
  • Speaker 3
    0:27:33

    Okay. Little Paloo. He installed a sweat lodge in his house where did he go?
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:39

    And prayer, of course.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:40

    And prayer, of course. Not but grudging anybody prayer. Thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure for me, the documentary, which I enjoyed God and country in theaters now. And, we’ll be talking to you guys soon.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:51

    Good to talk to you.
  • Speaker 3
    0:27:52

    Thanks for having us, Tim.
  • Speaker 4
    0:28:04

    I ain’t gotta pass.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:01

    The Secret Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and
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