Mitt Romney and the Hollow Men (The Secret Podcast PREVIEW)

Hey, there. It’s JBL. On the Secret Show with Sarah Longwell today, we talked about Mitt Romney going away. We talked about the United Octative Workers strike. We talked about Trump on meet the press.

We talked about all sorts of things. Here’s the show.

The Mckay Copins piece is devastating. For a whole bunch of reasons, I read it and had many simultaneous simultaneous thoughts. One is this is phenom a phenomenal piece of writing and reporting.

It really is. I didn’t know that McKay had that in him honestly. I’ve always liked him as a writer, but this is, like, a whole level up above what I thought he was capable of. It’s very impressive.

It’s outstanding. And I gotta say just real quickly, like, the Tim Alberta because this was, it was sort of one of these Tim Alberta like things where he’s he’s putting you in the space. He’s giving you psychological access to somebody. And it doesn’t feel exploitative and it doesn’t feel. It’s just it but it’s it’s perfect.

I was it’s it’s perfect. I can’t wait to read his book. And I almost never

say habit of doing this with with writers. Like, he’s the editorial team that he’s assembled over there is really helping their writers

grow. They’re the only ones that are better than us.

And They’re

the only ones that are better than us.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s scale. I wouldn’t say better. But, but you but I I mean this as an editor, you definitely see. I would say Jennifer senior.

Seymour. Yeah. Emma Emma Emma Green who’s no longer there. Olga, whose name I can’t remember. It’s like a Russian y, a senior opinion.

Cause that Kastan or something, Yeah.

Very good. An Apple bomb?

Well, Anne was always great before the but Tim, Tim Alberta has really blossomed and McKay has blossomed. And that speaks to is a culture where the editors are helping the writers really grow into being the best versions of themselves. And I find it deeply impressive. So hats off to those guys. Sorry.

So that was so that was my my I like reading it being this is like an incredible piece of writing. But the other part of it I appreciated a great deal being brought into how Mitt Romney struggled personally with navigating these moments. Because I’ve been mad at Mitt Romney in and and then and then he’s the only person that cheers me up. Like he’ll come, you know, he when he made that speech because they they go inside the speech that he gave at the first impeachment and talk about how he he laid up at night, thinking he was gonna he was going to exonerate him because he didn’t necessarily think that he had, you know, gone. He could he didn’t think they’d proven that he’d gone out of his way to, like, bribe Zelensky.

But then other Republicans were like, well, even if he did, that’s not really what matters. And he was like, no. But that does matter. And he realized how much of a cynical ploy it was, and he decided he had to convict. I also I just his this is, you know, you and I fight about Mike Pence.

And and this is I thought this really was

Yeah. Midtaking sides against pens was tough for me.

Yeah.

Had to make made me rethink some things.

But you know what? Well, I’ll be interested in that. Really because to me, the way that Mitt was the way his faith sits on him as like a I can’t make a decision like this that is going to put me at odds with my faith is something that, like, Mike Pence, clearly didn’t do. And so I thought, yeah, I thought that part was, like, devastating and interesting. I mean, what else?

I got like a million moments from this piece. The parts about Mitch McConnell, where Romney finds out, that January sixth, that on January sixth, there’s gonna be, like, this mob of people, and he gets a call from, like, Ken Bucker’s

king. Angus king. Yep.

Angus king is, like, And because they’re basically like, they’ll kill you, Mitt. Like, that’s not what they say. But, like, the implication is, you, Mitt Romney, would be particularly, of interest to a mob coming to the capital. And so I wanna warn you. So Mitt tax or either text or sends a message to McConnell being like, Hey, do we have security, like, proper security for this?

Cause it sounds like this thing that’s happening on January sixth could be really dangerous. And mitt or and McConnell just doesn’t write back. You know who comes off horrible in that whole piece? Is Mitch McConnell.

Oh, yeah.

What a bad I mean, some of this stuff and this is the the whole time reading this piece, and this is why I think it’s such an important incredible piece of writing. You and I know as deep in our bones as anything that these are bad, corrupt, compromised cowardly people. We know it. It’s not like this is a surprise to us, and yet it was revelatory. To read it, and it was like re understanding the depths of that corruption.

Cause Mitchell still do things from time to time that give me like

a little bit of like, oh, well, Mitch is gonna fund Ukraine. Right? Cause we’ll still act enough like a normal Republican that I sort of am like, well, Mitch McConnell won’t go for that because he’s not like the worst, but like, he is the worst. The most craven. And yeah, I just kept thinking about the hollow men, the hollow chest.

I mean, the stuff about about him sitting going into the the, like, senate cafeteria, like the Republicans, like, the school yard, middle school, no one sits with him. He’s kind of alienated and like, it makes him sad. And he feels bad about it, but also that doesn’t and and this is where

I think it elevates your appreciation for Mitt Romney because I think it’s one thing that all of us sit in sort of judgment of how he behaves from where we are. But when you think that every day, for him to do the things that we want him to do, he is turning to the person just sitting next to them and putting his thumb in their eye. Right? Like it requires him to just be completely alienated every day from the people he’s around to have them hate him, not wanna work with him, not be able to do his job for people. And then it’s not got more.

And then there’s this other element that I I know I’ve talked about with you a lot, but I think it’s just this underappreciated psychological effect that’s happening on the Republican Party, which is the menace of the voters. He talks about how he felt unsafe. At Utah, how they booed him. And I remember when this happened, how they were booing him and screaming at him at a Republican event. In Utah, and he was like, man, these are my people, but he didn’t feel safe in that moment.

And that is when a lot of these guys step down. It’s it’s because I mean, he’s stepping down. I think I do think the age thing. I do think he probably can’t win a Republican primary. I think he wants to unburden himself.

Like, I think that he’s going I can’t wait to read this book or other excerpts because I just think he’s going full tilt after these guys. He’s gonna expose them all, and I just I want it to happen. I can’t remember where I was going with that. I don’t know. I get the piece gets me so wound then it’s also just, like, impossibly sad.

It’s impossibly sad. What happens behind the scenes? Sorry. You talk now. I’m gonna

No. I’m I’m just gonna prompt you for more. What do you think about the anecdotes where he recounts speaking with other elected Republicans who wanted to vote for impeachment, but who said they couldn’t because they were afraid for their wives and children. And then the Republican senator, who was gonna vote convict, but then got talked out of it, under the rational rational rationalization of, think about your safety. Yeah.

So this is now a thing domestic terrorism has risen to the point where decisions are being made at the congressional level out of fear for the physical safety because of one of our two major parties. That’s where we live right now.

And and I remember this. You know, like, it was some of the impeachures, like, people who did vote to impeach. Like, it got so bad. What’s his name didn’t run again? Gonzalez.

Gonzalez. And this is not right. I mean, there was you know, Pete Mayer talked about this. This is I I think it was Reuters to the giant investigation of what this looks like at the local level with, like, local, election board people and the death threats and threats of violence that they’ve got. All through twenty twenty.

This is this isn’t the first time. We’ve seen this over and over and over and over again. And I don’t know how we get out of this because, here’s the thing about the threats of physical violence. They work. They do work.

And all the people making those threats, they understand that they work. And, like, this is where this is bad. And it’s bad because I don’t really see a way out of it. Unless it just sort of burns itself out somehow. Right?

I I I think it is gonna be largely resistant to to extinguishing?

Well, this is one of the reasons that the prosecutions of the Proud Boys, the oath keepers, and the January people who broke into the Capitol January six is so important. Like the consequences, for people who are threatening violence, against elected officials at every level. They should. But, like, that was another thing. Like, Mitt Romney is paying five grand a day for personal security.

And I know that Liz Cheney had personal security when she was doing the January sixth committee, and I think some of the other January sixth committee members too, the Republican ones. Yeah. The Republican wants

the Republican wants more so than the Democrats. Right? This is to be but, you know, but it’s a normal political movement and, you know, but but como president Kamala Harris would be so much worse. We have to impero over these people who I I I don’t. It’s so angry.

Hey. What do you think I’m Paul Ryan?

What a what so that that part I mean, I this is where my was hitting the floor on these little nuggets. And this is when I say it’s impossibly sad. That was one of the moments that was really sad.

You left Paul Ryan once upon a time? Yeah.

Yeah. I liked Paul Ryan once upon a time. He’s a little bit like an Iron Rand devotee for my tastes, but I did I liked him. I thought he was serious. I thought he, you know, had ideas and wanted to implement them and wanted to kick them around.

Whatever. And I I don’t think he’s a bad I didn’t think he was a bad person.

Oh, I think he’s a bad person now.

But man, him calling up Mitt Romney and telling him not to vote for impeachment. I was like, you. You soulless. I don’t they’re just like, you cowered. You cowered.

That’s worse than the coward.

It’s not just your own cowardice. You’re trying to trying to extend your cowardice to somebody else. You don’t want anybody else to be brave because it reflects on your own cowardice. It highlights your own cowardice.

So I I don’t think it’s I I think it’s actually evil. And let me say why. If Paul Ryan was himself still in Congress, if he was an elected official, if he had some skin in the game. And so he was gonna try to pressure because he really wanted to, like, make his own life a little bit easier. Then I would say, okay, this is an example of cowardice and this man is a coward.

For Paul Ryan, just hop off the sidelines and try to whip votes for Trump by turning MIT with, sort of like, hey, are you sure you wanna do this there? Big guy? Is both disloyal? Tomit, let me let me tell you what that the loyalty version of that phone call goes. I hear you’re in a tight spot.

I just want you to know whatever you decide I got your back. That’s what your former running mate is supposed to say.

Yeah.

Not, boy. Are you sure you, you know, nice little shop you have here. Be ashamed if something happened to it. And for this, again, with no skin in the game, he’s just out there in the world collecting his checks.

And he’s hanging out on the fox board.

And he he parachutes in there to try to pressure Rami on this. Fuck you, Paul Ryan.

So can I just say why this is even worse? Right? He thinks he’s giving him good advice. Like, This is this there’s this, talked about this before this idea, like, when bad guys think they’re good guys. Right?

Like terrorists. Think that they’re good guys. The people who store on the capital thought that they were protecting democracy. Paul Ryan thinks he is giving Mitt Romney. Good sound, honorable advice and actual when and and so he has perverted.

Like, he’s so twisted up in this. So twisted up that he thinks he’s calling up his buddy to be like, no, man. You shouldn’t do this. It’s for your own good. Ignore your conscience, Mitt.

Don’t do what you think is right. Do what is safe. Do what’s be and and it’s because of that menace. I find it nauseating.

I have one more thing that really grinds my gears. I I mentioned this last night on the show, but you weren’t here. So I wanna throw it to you. I am, I think, as a manager, a very big hearted guy. I I like to think about teams.

I think you’re a monster.

I I like to think about teams and elevating people and putting everyone in a position to succeed, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. That’s my, you know, I just try to be a team lead. And this story about when he shows up at his office, the morning of and brings his senior staff together to tell them what he’s decided to vote. In the reactions of some of his staffers, including one woman who looks at puts her head in her hands upon hearing that her boss has devoted side to vote to convict, puts her head in her hands and and doesn’t look up for the rest of the meeting. He should’ve fucking fired her on the spot.

Yeah.

He should’ve said, you, Karen. Not actually her name. I’m just, like, get out of here. We’ll mail you your things. How d how dare you, ma’am?

How dare you sit there? And be, oh, I can’t believe that my boss is putting me in this position by trying to hold to the constitution. Don’t you understand? I’m gonna have to get another job on the hill. You you soulless piece of crap.

Now, entirely possible. This woman had just had a very bad morning and gotten news that like her dog had died, and that’s why she put her hand, her head in her hands. And if that’s the case, I am sorry, ma’am, and I take it all back. Mhmm. I am simply reading things into this, which maybe aren’t the case.

But those were my my feelings upon me because that’s how pervasive this French village situation is because that’s what it all it’s all the French village.

Yes.

That even the staffers to the print That’s how much the pressure is. Right? Mid isn’t just mid isn’t just holding out against the angry angry mothers in Utah, screaming at him with spittle coming out of their their mouths. He’s not just, hang holding out against Mitch McConnell and JD Vance. He’s not just holding out against Paul Ryan calling him saying, Hey, buddy.

You know, be smart here. Don’t be don’t be stoop. Be smart. He’s got a holdout against his own fucking staffers. Who he pays to help him carry out his best judgment.

He’s gotta hold out against them too. And I just

ugh. Ugh. The idea? That you would be a staff person, and you would watch your boss take a historic stand for something they believed in. And that you would find that catastrophic to your own, whatever, sensibilities.

I do I do think it’s not that I want to saint Mitt Romney. Is that his normal level of decency, his unwillingness to go along with all this subtle pressure. Then unsub

And not so subtle.

And unsubtle pressure.

Alright. Not so subtle.

Not subtle. Yeah. But just the the constant the constantness of it. Right? Like, his whole existence, like, some of the stuff about him, you know, he lives in this, bachelor’s apartment and watches better call saul and Ted Lass.

Ted Lass. Oh, yeah.

And, like, only has seltzer and soda, and There’s crumbs on the counter because he’s living the bachelor lifestyle, but like, doesn’t really go out and doesn’t right? He doesn’t have that many friends here because he’s like a pariah. He’s like a pariah. And the fact that he has done the right thing, I just I think it’s underappreciated how hard that would be. You know, there’s I’m trying to remember where I heard this, because I don’t but maybe you’ll know what I’m talking about or maybe some of our readers, well, listeners.

Is that, like, the worst thing for a human being is being like, cast out of a tribe, that there’s something, like, evolutionary in us, right, that needs to be in a tribe because their tribe keeps you safe and that it’s like deeply embedded. And so the idea of resisting your tribe of standing up to it is like, they’re going to leave you in the desert to die and move on without you. Do you know what I’m talking about?

I do. I do. I don’t personally feel that. I have the opposite instincts, which are I’m gonna join your stupid tribe. I’m not here by myself, and I’m good by myself.

Thanks.

I also have a little, like, don’t need your try, like, whatever. But I just I I can see, especially, Mitt Romney seems like Maybe, like, a little bit of a people, please? Or, like, he wants people to like him. He’s a nice person. He wants to joke around, whatever.

I just I the the main thing I I wanted to say is that his his normal level decency really exposes, and this piece is just filled with it. And it’s why at the end of it, I felt really empty and sad is because the cynicism, not just of j Josh Holly and Ted Cruz, but just all of them. And, like, he’s the last like, he’s gone. Like, and, like, the only ones, like, it’s like you know, Lisa Murkowski gives him salmon, and that’s nice. Which he’s the

person catch up?

Which that’s nice.

That was an amazing. He can’t salmon, alaskan salmon is amazing. And Mittami in order to make it palatable, covers it and catch up.

But I went So I like I like that but I guess, like, even I guess I I guess I’d imagined he sort of had Susan Collins and Murkowski to really like buddy around with up there. But it doesn’t sound like he had had much. Anyway, I just It’s it’s it is as it is it is almost even worse. It’s almost even worse than what we quit our jobs. To combat and now continue to talk about endlessly.

Somehow, the the genius of that McCabe piece was for him to show us that actually even to us, it can be like worse and darker and, more soulless than than even we can imagine.

So, Did you read any of the stuff I wrote this week? Best friend?

I think I read them all. Which one might not Alright.

So journey with me to to Fantasy Island. Because what I would like to know is, if Donald Trump is the nominee, why? Would we not have George w Bush, Dick Cheney and Mitt Romney, Barnes storming the country with Joe Biden? Telling Americans, hey, we are Republicans. We never thought we would see the day when we would Tell people to vote for a Democrat, but in this one case, right here, holy crap, you cannot vote for this authoritarian over here who says he’s going to terminate the constitution and exact retribution.

Guys, you gotta vote for the Democrat here. Now I understand that you say this is fantasy politics.

No. I’m not I’m not as dismissive on this.

But I I tried to make the point that Donald Trump has been practicing fantasy politics. Right? With the sort of I’m not gonna sign your pledges. I will tell voters to stay home and not show up at your your special elections in Georgia. And maybe I’ll start my own.

All of that is fantasy politics. Right? No.

It’s not. That’s burn it all down politics.

Well, Maybe it’s time to practice and burn it all down. Right. I mean, the but this is

I don’t I don’t think what you’re talking about right now. I I actually have been surprised and was arized, in twenty twenty that George W Bush didn’t endorse Joe Biden. I was I I’m sure we talked about this at the time. I’ve I’ve been very disappointed that he hasn’t been more explicit in his condemnations. He did something after January sixth.

As I recall. But, like, I think it is, I think at this point. And probably and now we’re just like, like, there was a line somewhere back there. The line is so far back. It’s like a dot to us when we’re looking back But there was a line a long time ago where like lots of people should have spoken up that haven’t.

And, I mean, but you Part of what I think about is, like, remember Camales or rice? I don’t know if she went on the view or something like that. And she was like, well, you know, we really need to move on from this. And I was like, what? What are you talking about?

And I just I guess I I I I I think it is there’s a slim possibility that somebody like George w Bush could come out against it. I don’t think it’s super likely, but I Why wouldn’t they? But but, yeah, I mean

Why would Susan Collins and Lisa and Lisa Murkowski and Mitt Romney and George w Bush and Chaney who’s already coming Dick Cheney is already off off the reservation on this. Right? He’s there already.

Would do it. He Dick Cheney probably would.

He did this already sort of thing.

Endorsed Joe Biden. This is why the no label stuff

Well, then then they can say, don’t vote for Trump. They should say stay home. Right? They look, if they can’t go all the way to endorsing Biden fine. But they should say, don’t give Donald Trump your vote.

Yeah.

Right? Don’t vote for no labels. Don’t, but don’t don’t give Donald Trump, leave that line Bulwark. Don’t do that. And if they don’t do it at this, like, we’re headed to an incredibly close election that I have basically talked myself into believing that Trump is gonna win.

This isn’t a prediction. This isn’t, JBL is always right I’m seeing around the corners moment.

This is just like everything’s bad and you’re sad and you’re blowing yourself mentally for worst case scenarios.

I just I’m what I’m doing is I’m looking at all of the judgments of the people, and they seem so irrational to me that I don’t understand how suddenly thirteen months or fifteen months from now, they’re gonna become rational. Right. If they’re irrational about everything right now anyway, why would we think that they’re gonna become suddenly rational?

Yeah. Can I give you can I try to tell you something that just, like, soothe you from your certainty? I would

love it. I could use that.

Just think about twenty twenty two.

Hey again. It’s JBL. The conversation goes on from there. If you want to hear the rest of the show, head on over to Bulwark Plus and subscribe. We’d love to have you.