Meet the (One-Time) 7th-Most-Powerful Man in Wrestling
On this week’s episode, Sonny is joined by Brian Gewirtz to talk about his tenure as a writer for the WWE. His new book, There’s Just One Problem…: True Tales from the Former, One-Time, 7th Most Powerful Person in WWE, is a must-read for anyone interested in the world of “sports entertainment.” Brian was there for the rise of Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson, the tail end of the Monday Night Wars, the so-called Attitude Era, and beyond. He suffered through celebrity guest hosts of Monday Night Raw, some great, some terrible. He lived through the real-life beef between John Cena and Dwayne Johnson. And he came out the other side as part of Johnson’s production house, Seven Bucks Productions.
I really can’t recommend Brian’s book enough, and I can’t help but feel like wrestling—with its baby faces (heroes) and heels (villains); with its emphasis on “kayfabe” (that is, playing along with a storyline even though everyone on all sides knows its scripted)—on some level, is a key to understanding modern American political culture. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend!
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Welcome back to the Board close to Hollywood. My name is Sunny Von, film culture editor at the Bulwark. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by Brian Gewertz, the author of There’s just one problem. True Tales from the former one time seventh most powerful person in the WWE. Brian, thanks for being on the show today.
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Yeah. Thanks for having me.
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So, well, you know, as as I said, the show’s Bulwark goes to Hollywood. And I feel like wrestling is a good way to think about Hollywood right now just in terms of the mainstreaming of wrestling. We’ll we’ll talk about that in a little bit, but I wanna get I wanna go all the way back to the start of your story. How did you how did how did Dwayne the Rock Johnson get you into the world of wrestling on a full time basis? Because this is a fascinating story to me.
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Yeah. Thanks. It’s it’s it’s kind of a crazy string of, you know, unbelievable happenings, I guess. Because or not unbelievable happenings. But a a lot of, you know, fortunate fortunate tails and mixed with a little like, nice little splash in nepotism at some point.
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You know, well, basically, you know, I’d wanted to be a sitcom writer since third grade. Watching my uncle. My uncle Howard was a show runner. He he produced taxi and bosom buddies with Tom Hanks and wings. Larry Sanders, and that’s something I always wanted to do.
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So when I graduated college, I went out to Hollywood, to, you know, as most of us did graduating from Syracuse. And, you know, we we did our thing, you know, putting in our time, working this production assistance and, you know, slowly making our way up the ranks. I was lucky enough to get on a show, work on a couple of shows as a writer you know, in my early twenties, one of them being Jenny Jenny McCarthy sitcom, which my uncle was the show runner on. So that’s the first little slash dash of nepotism. But I’d like to think I earned it to my writing partner and I based on our previous credits, But unfortunately, you know, like, the world wasn’t really ready to see, you know, Jenny McCarthy transition from crazy wild, singled out, gal to Ernest Laverne and Shirley wanna be from Utica trying to make it in the world of Hollywood.
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So that show got canceled relatively quickly. And I was out of work for a while, my writing partner and I we we’re writing Spex Scripps doing a lot of meetings and stuff, but we’re in we weren’t getting hired, you know, as is the case off Hollywood. Sometimes you’re, like, working on three shows in a row. Sometimes, you know, you’re not staffed for the season. So I was, you know, toiling away, almost getting a job you know, as I write about, as a fast food spy for Jack in the Box, they have this ad in the LA Times where they basically wanted you to, like, meet in a hotel airport and then, you know, if if you get picked, and that’s a big f.
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And there was a lot of clientele at that airport that was not gonna get picked. So I consider myself an accomplishment for having made it past round too. You know, essentially, like hiding in the bushes with the stopwatch, timing the drive through, seeing if the bathrooms are clean. Everything that an aspiring writer has always dreamed of when when heading out to LA. And then the second, like, splash of nepotism and fortunate happenings occurred because my sister, who my uncle had helped get an internship at MTV through the Jenny Connection, gave me a call and said she was interning at MTV, and they were doing a bunch of summerslam specials in conjunction with WWE, WWE, WWE, at the time.
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And they needed they needed a writer for these specials. And I guess everyone at MTV in the summer, July of ninety nine,
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was
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way too cool to have, you know, in-depth wrestling knowledge. So she knew that was a big fan, so she called me. And again, it’s like, I I kind of jokingly say a splash in nepotism, but ultimately you gotta do the work and you gotta get hired on your own merit. So I wrote up a whole bunch of things, a whole bunch of samples, whatever they requested. They looked it over.
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They hired me off that. And then I came, you know, I flew from LA right before I was supposed to start my first Jack in the Box Fast Foods Buy Shift. So it was very disappointing. I never got to do that. But ultimately, the long about answer is I I got hired by MTV to write these specials.
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One of them was the wrestling superstars, you know, introduced their favorite music videos. You know, watch I asked MTV. Oh, so these are the these are the songs in the videos that these guys, you know, gave to you. Like, no. No.
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They we have no idea if they like these songs. Or even avert of these artists. But you just need to write them in their own voice because these are the music videos that are popular at the time. So that’s that’s literally not what they said. Popular at the time because we were in the present, but you get the idea.
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So one of them yeah. So I had written these, you know, these kind of intricate scripts highlighting, I think it was like a limp biscuit, nooky, and kid rock and corn. There was a video with mankind, Mick Foley, you know, trying to spot corn in a corn video. All these type of things. And and the one I did with Duane, I don’t even remember what the artist was, but he was like, wow, you really have my voice down really well.
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At the time, you know, the rock only spoken the third person. So it was like, yeah, you only have, like, the pronoun I once here and and all of the pages of script that you wrote. So he we really hit it off. We ended up doing a vignette together. Where he hit me with and it doesn’t matter.
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I don’t know where the spin yet exists. I can’t find it on YouTube. That’s probably for the best. And then he was like, hey, do you ever consider writing for WWE, which is something I never considered. You know?
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It was so far off the grid, as far as quote, real television was at the time. But I decided to, you know, take them up on the offer because why not? I wasn’t doing anything else. And, you know, ultimately, I met with Vince McMahon. Shane McMahon had all these job interviews And I turned down the job, then said, well, make an offer you can’t refuse.
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And they offered me a job on w w f dot com which, you know, wasn’t anything that I was thinking about doing. Not like I had written on three shows. They might not be great shows. I’m not, like, packing up and leaving LA to write for w w f dot com, no offense. W w f dot com, no offense to w w dot com in the present.
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Wasn’t something I was interested in. And then I got hired my writing partner and I got hired on another show, and I thought that was the end of it. And then you know, at a certain point, that show was wrapping up and the two writers who were at WWF at the time kinda left while they were overseas on a on a tour, while the what the WWF was. And WWE called and said, Yeah. Listen.
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We know we offered you a job at the website. Like, can you forget all of that and come immediately to write on our television show because we have a situation. And then there was a decision to make. So I’m like figured, well, I don’t wanna go through the same thing, like, the same post Jennie thing again. So, yeah, I took it.
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And that’s essentially the very long version. So forgive me for scrambling. Of how Papa Dwayne’s The Rock Johnson’s suggestion I ended up at WWE. So
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let’s let’s talk about what it was at what writing for the WWE was actually like at the time because at the time there’s just Monday night raw. Right? When you start it’s it’s or had SmackDown already started?
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SmackDown already started. I I started on the sixth episode of SmackDown. They’re on the five millionth now, but it was number six when I started.
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Right.
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So so you you’re you’re stepping into this place where it suddenly expanded from one live show or one show a week to two shows a week, you’ve got the pay per views, Sunday night shows, what is it like for for the writing team there? At the time
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because it was only you and a couple other guys. Right? And when I first started, it was just me and another writer who had just started himself named Tommy Blocha, whom’s still friends with. He’s a very funny guy. He came over from Conan, and he was always of the mindset of I’m gonna do this for a couple months for the stories, and then I’m gone.
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I’m gone by WrestleMania two thousand. And it was literally just the two of us and the McMahon’s but it was a very it was a shock to the system to me because I hadn’t first of all, I had no idea how the process worked. I assumed that with so many hours of TV to write, you know, when you’re talking about a pay per view week, that’s one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, Sunday night eight, hours of TV a week that there would be long writer’s meetings and and and that’s essentially what it is now meeting all day in Stanford. But at the
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time, because
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it was a time of transition with the two previous writers leaving, and the and the company about to go public. It was just pure chaos, really. I was told I I had an apartment in Stanford, WWF, I said it again. WWE put me up in an apartment in Stanford, moved my car across country, everything else. And I figured, alright, great.
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Where’s the office? Where do we go in? To to write. And I was told, well, you don’t really need to come in at all. Write your ideas down, type them up, and then fax them to Vince’s office.
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And then you’ll show up to TV on Monday and see if he uses any of them. And I’m like, oh, that’s that’s different. What about SmackDown? Should we come up with stuff for that? Well, SmackDown’s all predicated on what happens on raw.
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So you’ll just write smackdown morning of the show in Vince’s hotel suite at, like, you know, seven in the morning or something like that. Like, wow. That is that is truly different. And and let me to wonder why am I living in Stanford, Connecticut then I’m never going into the office. So I subletted my apartment to the new announcer Jonathan Coachman who had just started moved into New York City, which is what I always wanted to do.
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And I’m like, this is the life for, like, three months. Sometime in February two thousand, they hired some more writers. And it was yeah. We need to come into the office and write the show, like, a normal show. So
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so then you get
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stuck doing the reverse Exactly. Reverse commute every every Wednesday,
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Thursday, and Friday. So
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what were you? Explain to to listeners what you’re actually writing? Because I feel like, you know, I I will I will guess that most listeners might show not not we’re not avidly watching the Monday Night Wars as I was, you know, as a as a teenager or whatever, you missed out. But the but, you know, what what were you actually writing for for the wrestlers and for the show in general. So the rating is kinda twofold.
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There’s
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the rating
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you do before you show up. To TV. And when I say to TV, that’s a Monday night raw live airing or a SmackDown taped airing even though it’s live now. It was taped back then. Or a live pay per view.
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And that essentially is, you know, you’re writing
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out For
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RAW, it was back then, it was a two hour show, now it’s three. So there were eleven segments. You know, you and and some of them were matched segments, some of them were promo segments as we call them, which is just, you know, wrestlers talking on the mic and and usually physicality developing alphabet. And also, the the the overall storylines happen because you wanna have long term storylines in addition to what’s happening on the show that day. Because ultimately, you’re trying to get people again, the model has changed so much in twenty years, but at the time it trying to get people to buy the pay per view that’s coming up.
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Now it’s all streaming on POC. And obviously, you’re still wanting people to subscribe to POC to watch the pay per view. But back then, it was all about getting the pay per view buys as well as maintaining the ratings on USA for RAW and UPN for SmackDown. And So during the week, you’d be pitching segments to Vince, pitching, you know, matches pitching, arcs pitching, backstage segments, in ring segments, all that kind of thing. Where you basically get it all down on paper.
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And then when you actually show up to the TV taping, that’s when you, you know, really get granular and get into the weeds of it, meeting with the talent and, you know, essentially writing what they’re actually gonna say because hopefully after the production meeting, that afternoon, this stuff is now solidified as best as it can be as far as what the eleven segments are. And for SmackDown ten segments. Now you actually if it’s gonna be an in ring promo, you need to get with the talent, get with the wrestlers, and actually write it. Ideally with them and with their input. And, you know, that that really made those TV days, Mondays, and Tuesdays, just a whirlwind of heightened adrenaline, sometimes panic, because, you know, as as has been said, the show doesn’t go on the air because it’s ready.
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The show goes on the air because it’s nine o’clock. You know, taking the old Tina Pay SNL quote. So you’re when we had our production meetings, we’d have them at, like, eleven one I’d be the guy, like, you know, with the quote unquote Hollywood roots saying, you know, usually these scripts are written sometimes months in advance, weeks in advance, the idea of showing up to TV and not knowing what is gonna happen is a little terrifying when you’re responsible for actually producing it and writing it. So after the production meetings went in, there was just a mad scramble because the wrestlers have their matches to go over. They’re not going over that necessarily.
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Beat by beat by beat, although in some cases they are. But also all the backstage segments, especially if you look at an episode of RAW from two thousand versus twenty twenty two, there’s a lot more backstage segments. And there’s plenty now, but there was a little ton more back then. And sometimes we’d pre tape them. Oftentimes we’d do them live.
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That was something, you know, Duane always took pride in. I don’t know how he did it. But whenever he had a backstage promo and this was, like, two, three, four minute promos, it’s not like a quick sound bite even leaving. He always wanted to do it live because he always fed off the energy of the crowd and, like, the live interaction, if they’re chanting his name, he could pause and look up and that kind of thing. Just made it feel more in the moment.
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But we would you know, it really was going by the seat of our pants. And then there’s the factor of the segment that’s allotted for seven minutes goes ten minutes heavy. And now you gotta find three minutes to take out of another segment before it’s happened. It’s just really, really chaotic. And
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part
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of that, it was nerve wracking, but a lot of it was like, wow. This is I I you you don’t experience this on sitcoms where it takes all day and and lowly all week to right to to to to produce one. Everything. This is two hours. It’s going on from nine to eleven, eleven o five or whatever it is.
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And we get to do it all over again tomorrow as they’d say, you know, after we were done with Rob.
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Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s great. I mean, you you compare it to SNL, but it’s like doing a hundred and four SNLs a year instead of, you know, sixteen or or whatever the the season running. There
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there are a lot of parallels to S and L, you know, with
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the with
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the with the, like, legend overseeing it between Lauren Michaels and Vince and the, you know, the clear stars in the cast and those who are coming up and those who are just, you know, could be stars if they got the break kinda thing. You know, the main difference with with WWE and SNL is the fact that, like, a least SNL has a home base and they’re not literally traveling to two cities a week every week, fifty two weeks a year. And they also have time off too. You know, they have, like, whatever it is, a twenty something episode. Seasoned.
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But that’s what you know, we were fortunate enough to have some interaction with S and L. We had Will Forte and Kristen Wigg
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Jorement
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to Coleman and the McGrubercast guest hosting once. And they were just pretty surprised you know, how how things went back there because they were assuming, like, oh, how many how many cameras are we doing for this backstage been yet? No. Just this guy. It’s gonna just pan a lot and, like, oh, and are there cue cards?
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No. No. When when they go out to the ring, they’ll just be reciting. Twenty minutes worth of material with literally no notes or cue cards or prompter or anything.
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Yeah. You you you have a great story about S and L. We’ll get to that in a in a second, but I went I went to hop back to something you mentioned being being the Hollywood guy being the Hollywood guy in the wrestling room. Because there there’s a there’s a there’s a great story at the start of your book about wrestler’s court and the the kind of culture clash. That you experienced when you first showed up.
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I mean, it’s it’s almost kind of hilariously old fashioned in a way, you know, you’re you’re supposed to shake everybody’s hands, look everybody in the eye, introduce yourself, which is not wasn’t from since I get from your book was not really your modus operandi. Yeah.
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I mean, it’s stuff that you would, on paper, say, well, what the hell is this guy’s problem? Of course, you should shake everybody’s hand and introduce yourself and looking in the eye and all that kind of thing. But, you
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know, when
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you’re I don’t know. Like, this kinda, like, introverted really out of his element, kinda shy
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person
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in the first place. I
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know it
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takes a while for me to, like, you know, warm up and you know, be comfortable around, you know, a cast of that’s the other thing, you know, versus S and L versus WWE or any show. Is it’s like a cast of, like, forty or fifty between all the wrestlers and, you know, managers and announces and referees and all the other anyone who’s on the air. So, yes, absolutely, like, you know, as as as a writer, as someone just starting in a company
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period, it
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was important to introduce yourself, and I introduce myself to people. But not everybody. And sometimes I would do just like the nod of recognition or, hey, how’s it going? You know, forms of greetings that would be applauded in the post COVID world. But back then, it was considered, you know, truly verbatim to to even consider not shaking everyone’s hand.
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So I got in trouble because I
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was kinda
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perceived as being, you know, a little bit standoffish in in, like, oh, big Hollywood guy here thinks he’s too good. Shake my hand in the locker room. And it was like, no. I’m not doing that because I’m standoffish. I’m doing that because I’m
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terrified. No.
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Obviously, as time wore on and it became much, much less of an issue. But, yeah, I got in trouble between all of that and the fact that one of the wrestlers who I was friends with is that, you know, you warm up to people and become friends with them. And it’s a whole thing in WWE because It’s like the Harry Met Sally deal. Can can women and men and women truly be friends? Because the sex gets in the way.
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The WWE is can writers and wrestlers truly be friends? Because the idea of television time gets in the way. Like, can you truly be friends with someone if, you
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know, as as I
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was told, they’re not your friends. They’re quote unquote working you. They’re trying to get on your good side, so you suggest them to Vince to be in segments on television, stuff like that. And I’d be like, no. We really are friends.
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We’re same age. We have the same interest. We have the same movies. We hang out. Like, yeah.
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They are working you trust me. So it was like that kind of a thing. And some of the wrestlers I was friends with. And I don’t say think I was friends with because we’re still friends now even though, you know, I’m not in wrestling anymore. For the for the record, we’re talking about Christian and Edge
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here. The wrestler’s Christian and Edge. Yeah. Edge, you know, was that
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a Signing at a comic book store, someone gave him a flash action figure. He knew that I liked the flash. Because who does it? Well, I like the fictional character of the flash. I wanna point that out in twenty twenty two.
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And tricky tricky these days. And then one of the other wrestlers, hardcore Holly, who is this veteran, really no nonsense. Extremely real life tough. In the ring tough. Everything else saw this gift giving happen.
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And that was his aha moment, and he reported it. And next thing I know, you know,
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we have
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a huge show. This is two thousand one. This is a day after WrestleMania seventeen. Which is always considered oh, this is the smackdown after that. So it’s still it’s considered one of the biggest shows of the year.
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And Stephanie told me, yeah, we’re going to rest a score today, report to the to one of the production meeting rooms where, you know, again, I thought this would be a small thing. I couldn’t imagine something like as stupid as someone saw me take a flash action figure as it was explained to me being the impetus for this. Yeah. I thought, alright. Then she said, well, get a get a box of pizza, get some beers, and, you know, it’ll be fine.
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And I did that. Thinking there’ll be like six people there, and there was literally every wrestler, every producer, every agent, every seamstress, every security, every person from catering. The entire company essentially came it was a sellout in the in whatever room we were in. And myself, edge and Christian, went on trial for gift giving in exchange for television. Time, which is also funny because Christian really didn’t have anything to do with it.
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He didn’t give me a flash action figure. At least, I should get two action figures if I’m gonna be put on trial in front of every single wrestler in the
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company. I I
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just wanna set the I just wanna create the mental image for people, you know, the the judge at this trial is, of course, the
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Undertaker. Is
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it and he is he is he dressed as a is does he have, like, a judge Smock on, or is he, you know, just just just wearing a t shirt and jeans or whatever?
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He’s wearing judge apparel with a with a old, tiny English wig on the cover of the book. But in reality, he was dressed normally, which by the way, is still plenty imposing. In fact, it would have been a lot less imposing. Had he been dressed as a seventeen eighty three member of British parliament because then it would just contribute to the surrealness of it. But he was the judge He
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did have a
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gavel, I think, though, if I’m not mistaken. I mean, if you’re a judge, you gotta have a gavel. Gotta have a gavel. And Cain you know, the who who for those who don’t know is the devil’s favorite demon, the big red monster amongst many of his monikers, he was the bailiff standing behind behind me. Wasn’t like yeah.
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He was he was basically the the bull from Night Court he’s not in a outfit too, but and he’s not wearing his mask, but still he’s seventy tall, and he’s just got his arms folded, and he’s not exactly smiling. So that was interesting. And then JBL, John Lightfield, Bradshaw, who is this let’s just say animated, loud Texan, who is not afraid to speak his mind with, like, long hair and, like, just Luvs beer, that kind of thing. He was the prosecutor. And the defense look, you know, the for our defense was nobody.
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We we didn’t know we could I didn’t know we could defend ourselves with a lawyer. So we were defending ourselves, and that it did not go over well.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Cain, of course, is his real name. It’s Glenn Jacobs, mayor. I think he’s still the Just like
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real up in Tennessee. Right? Maximal — Yeah. Yeah. — or
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His early his early political experience was, you know, sending you to
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Russian jail. I think his his bailiff work is what push the motion of the edge of voters. That’s great. So
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what was the breakdown like for you? As as kind of a newcomer between when you looked at the when you looked at the talent, what was a breakdown between the old school guys and, like, the newer school guys? Because I really feel like there’s a there’s a definite difference in some of these, you know, like hardcore Holly and some of these some of these other older school guys and some of the younger guys who were coming up, essentially your age, same same
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basic age. Yeah.
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I would say back then and this is unscientific, but I would say it would be two thirds old school people who grew up in the business as far as, you know, starting, you know, in in independence and territories and other, you know, w c w, e c w, and and really relying on themselves more than anybody as as all wrestlers really did. Back then to get themselves over. And and to get over is to basically be, you know, cheered by the crowd if you’re a good guy, booed by the out if you’re a bad guy. The worst thing for a wrestler is to be met with indifference and having people go up to get snacks or go to the bathroom or, you know, be chanting what or boring or whatever it is. Even that is a form of some sort of interaction.
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The worst is just dead silence, which happens. But most of these guys, like two thirds of the locker
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room, you know, they
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they came up in a era of no writers and, you know, relying on themselves to get over as as most wrestlers did you know, prior to the mid to late nineties. And, you know, then you have, like, a third who were, you know, just starting whether it was like just being in the company for a year or two or being in the spotlight for, you know, that amount of time. And, you know, really, it was it
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was interesting
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mix because most of the you know, take the rock, for example, he famously was not over when he started. He came out as the smiling, you know, they call him baby faces, backstage, good guys,
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named
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Rocky
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Maivea taking, you know, the lineage of his father and grandfather into this smiling happy baby face, and he was pushed to the moon. I mean, he
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He won his
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debut match at survivor series in Madison Square Garden in nineteen ninety six. He won the Intercontinental title a few months since his reign. And the crowd just could did not care at all. In fact, it it it went the opposite. They started booing, enchanting, die rocky die and rocky sucks,
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which I
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guess is I guess is one step up from indifference and silence, but it’s not what you wanna hear. It you’re a good guy. You’re a bad guy. It’s it’s perfect. It’s the ideal reaction.
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But as a good guy, especially back then where you were just told, just smile through it. You’re not playing to the people in the stands. You’re playing for the millions at home. You’re a good guy, and it was just really really awkward. So he got himself, you know, he got hurt, he came
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back, he
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got himself over as a bad guy when he came back. And from there, really took off as you know, as as as a huge, huge star. So when I joined he was already over, and he did not need any help, really. But he he remembered me obviously from the MTV shoot and his attitude was, listen, I’m over as hell, but if you can help me get even more over, then great. Why what do I have to lose?
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You know, if it works, I improve and I get, you know, even more stuff in my arsenal. And if it sucks, then, you know, we stopped working together and, you know, I’ll still be over as ever. So, you know, that’s not what he literally said, but that was his output. So and and there were a lot of talents like that, which were, like, listen. Like, Asterico was another one because I got I don’t really know who you are or what you bring to the table.
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But what the hell? Let’s see what you got. Prove yourself, which is a challenge, you know, I was more than happy to, you know, take because I felt the same way, like, yeah. If if I suck and you’re not happy with what I’m giving you, then then we shouldn’t work together. I shouldn’t work here.
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And then there were some talents that were just like,
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what is
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this? Why is some sixteen year old looking guy? Who’s probably never been in a fight in his life telling me how to kick someone’s ass in a promo segment, all valid by the way. I understand where they’re coming from. But, you know, I always go back to and I remember thinking this at the time.
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It’s like, what do you know about, you know, fighting and and drinking and all this type of thing? Like, you’re completely unqualified for this job and, like, Well, I guess I missed the part where, like, Michael Creighton was fighting dinosaurs and yet still managed to write, you know, selling multiple best selling novels about it or or Chris Carter, you know, finding aliens before writing the X Files. It’s like it’s a fictional television show. I am a writer who writes fiction, you know, in this format. So — Yeah.
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— that’s why I’m here. And you mentioned the old school guys we talked about them a little bit.
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Seven bucks has a new show coming out for vice TV tales from the territories. Right? I mean, that sounds, you know, as as somebody who is kind of interested in that era of wrestling, but doesn’t know a ton about it, that sounds
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pretty interesting. Yeah.
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That’s thanks. We’re we’re really, really excited about that. I mean, that show that we teamed up with vice and the creators of Dark Side of the Ring. And that’s sometimes how, by the way, you know, we produce our television shows as simple as Duane was posting on Instagram about some episodes of dark side just because he’s a fan of it. Same with when he was Instagramming about the toys that made us, the show on Netflix, the Docu series.
-
And I’d see his Instagram post and be like, wow, I’m fans of those shows too. Maybe I’ll meet the creators of them. Maybe we can come up with something. So for the movies that Toys have made us, that eventually morphed into behind the attraction are showing Disney plus And for tales from the territories, yeah, that that was like, we were all fans at Dark Side. I took a meeting with Evan and Jason, the creators of that show.
-
And we, you know, we work together with Trevor Guerrero two, our stunt coordinator on Young Rock, And, like, figured out, like, yeah, there’s plenty of shows about the darkness in the dark side. Those guys have literally done it for multiple seasons. How can we tap into something else like the wild, the crazy stories from the territory days? Because before Wrestling was kinda nationalized in WWF versus WCW, they were split into territories all over the country. And in Canada and Mexico everywhere, And all of these territories had their own you know, it was it was considered much
-
much reelor
-
by the fans back then. You had fans attacking bad guys and parking lots or even in the ring. You had, you know, the stuff that, you know, with the benefit of, you know, zero social media not existing and certain things, you know, being much more acceptable back then as far as well, not really acceptable. I guess if you’re gonna get all drugged up and take
-
a door
-
off a plane and be hanging on for your life as Matt Daughn was back then. I guess that that was, I guess, better time to do it if you’re ever gonna do it in the late seventies, early eighties or what have you then then
-
doing
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it now. But You know, so we got together with Vice we we got the legends and the people who experience these stories. To go sit in roundtables and tell us the stories, like straight from their heads. And then, you know, in this style and the spirit of dark side, we would basically shoot recreations of those stories. So what you’ll see is, you know, seeing the people who experience them or telling or firsthand or secondhand experience them and then actually see the stories come to life, you know, all different territory every episode.
-
Yeah. It’s really and again, that’s
-
October fourth. Right? October fourth on vice TV? Yeah? Yeah.
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It’s October
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fourth on vice.
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You mentioned you mentioned social
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media and there’s there’s a great story towards the end of your book about the rock and John Cena kind of having legitimate beef with each other? I think in in a in a realer way than I think a lot of people expect from from wrestling. But one thing that jumped out at me in that story was was Duane Johnson going to his Facebook page and like getting getting legit angry And it made me think about how much the the industry has changed with the advent of social media. I mean, you as somebody who got into it, you know, before social media and who has has kind of watched as as the as the rise of Facebook and Reddit and Twitter and all the rest. From your perspective, how has that changed wrestling and its relationship with, not only the performers, but also the viewers.
-
I mean, I feel like it’s a it’s a huge a huge sea change
-
here. Oh, yeah.
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Totally. It it’s really in some respects, it’s great that you can continue storylines and angles on social media And that’s essentially, you know, what happened with with Rock and John. You know, John cut a promo when he was in Australia. You know, basically saying, hey, I’m here. The rock’s not here, which is kind of was his, you know, recurring theme during this exchange between him and and Duane when they were you know, building their match.
-
Somebody
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and it’s not like John didn’t know this would happen. You know, John is happier than anyone, but someone caught it on their cell phone posted on social media, rock saw it and was like, what the hell? Because that specific gripe, you know, was something that I don’t think they were on the same page about. It’s kinda like, yeah, I’m not there. I never said I was gonna be there every week.
-
You know, I put in my time. I was their full time, and then I left, and now I’m coming back. What’s not to understand? For full context for everybody, I mean,
-
this is after Twain Johnson has left and has is becoming a movie star in in Hollywood. I mean, it says, what, two thousand ten, eleven? Yeah. Yeah.
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So, I mean, he
-
he was coming back to the show occasionally to do promos but not on a week to week basis, like a guy like Siena.
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Yeah. And,
-
you know, John, you know,
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whether he was just wanting to continue the angle, whether he, like, was legit hurt that, you know, Duane wasn’t there. You know, he cut his promo and Duane saw that and this is when he’s not on TV. So he was able to use Facebook to respond back, respond in a way, you know, probably much more realer than WWE would want it because WWE eventually told both of them to cool it, save it for television, But, you know, social media is well, first of all, it’s great as far as, like, you know, if you miss something or if you want especially as a as a writer, If you wanna see instant reaction to a promo, a match, television show, there’s no shortage of feedback as you know on social media. Good or bad. And sometimes you can’t take it exactly at face value.
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But oftentimes, yeah, it gives you a pretty good indication of what the people are thinking more so than when, you know, in in in my days there, it would be based on the crowd reaction from people in the arena, and also based on the ratings in the minute by minute, we’d get them to the minute and see what went up, what went down. And that’s an effective way of looking at it too, but it’s much more personal and intimate, you know, with wrestlers having their multiple accounts, you know, Becky Lynch, I think, you know, used her account perfectly in her, you know, WrestleMania match with Ronda Rousey and and Charlotte Flaire a few years back. But she was just savage on her Twitter page as far as insulting them. And always in character too. And that’s one of those fine lines when you’re a wrestler as far as, you know, needing to ask yourself, am I gonna be the character that I portray on TV, on my social accounts, or am I gonna be my real life person persona?
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And there’s a lot of, you know, the people who two thirds of the people that I started working with in nineteen ninety nine would would look ahead, you know, into twenty twenty two and say, my god, you’re basically killing the business if you’re a bad guy, but also showing yourself at a birthday party or, you know, going to the, you know, going out to dinner or something like that. Because then you become less than larger than life. You become just a, you know, quote unquote, like a regular fan, that type of thing. And then there’s a flip side of that to be like, well, this is my life. This is my account.
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I’m not changing who I am just because I have a character on TV. And if anything, it gives fans a better perspective of me as a human being and gets to know me a little bit better and hopefully, you know, creates empathy or if you’re a heel, you know, and you’re doing stuff that they don’t like. Heat or whatever it is. So, yeah, it’s a really interesting dynamic. I mean, there’s a part of me that even though I was considered the new school when I started I really appreciate the old school aspects of keeping in character and keeping some kind of you know, mystique to your persona even on social media, but I get it.
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I mean, I get wanting to to post and and to do all these things that are outside of the realm because you have a finite shelf life in WWE. You’re you’re only there. I mean, some people are there for a while, but most, you know, taking bumps is hard, performing is hard. You know, like any athlete, you you have, like, a limited amount of bumps in you, a limited amount of matches in you. So why not, you know, do what you want while you have that — Yeah.
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— level. If
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you ever wanna read a story about a writer taking a bump, you gotta pick up Brian’s book there’s just one problem. True Tails from the former one time seventh most powerful person in the WWE. There’s a very very funny story about, you know, a snowed out show and and some some downtime and some some shenanigans being gotten up too. But
-
stuff
-
that could never, ever, ever happen to today, to control
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now. You know, it just one one nice
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thing on on the Facebook stuff here because it is interesting to me that, again, you mentioned you mentioned this, but, you know, Vince McMahon was like guys knocking off. You got you got to stop this. We we got it. Was he afraid of losing control of the narrative or just wasting good material? I mean, like, what does does he was he, like, we we need to be doing this on TV for the crowd, not for free on Facebook or Twitter?
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It’s
-
a good question. I I think
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it really was a combination of both. Because on the one hand, it was getting so personal and so, you know, Vince you know, likes to be in control of his product. And this was veering out of his control. Which isn’t good because, you know, they you know, when you’re in charge, you want things done a certain way. You have a vision you don’t want it getting so real to the point of untenable as far as the the talent wanting to work with each other.
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And a lot of it probably is, like, hey, this is this is not on our show. And I don’t know if this is this is great stuff, but I want I want it to
-
be done,
-
a, closer to when you guys are actually gonna have your match because I think this was, like, months and months out when neither you know, when Rock wasn’t on TV and what have you. But, yeah, I definitely think it was a combination. It was a combination of let’s let’s calm down a little bit before somebody says something that, you know, you can’t take back. And let’s save it for, you know, the money making portion of our gigantic multi million dollar, multiple WrestleMania three year angle. What are you guys doing?
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Yeah. It’s crazy. I mean, I
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Vince McMahon is a recurring character in in the book. Obviously, I mean, he is the the you know, the guy in charge of WWE, WWF for for all these years, there there are lots of great little vincisms as you as you put it, I guess, as everybody over there puts it. My favorite was one of the early ones in the book. Treat everyday like it’s your first. In terms of working with McMahon and and and seeing what he was like in real life as opposed to on TV as the rest of us experience him, what was what was that persona like?
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Well, I mean, was it was it was it weird that he the sense I get from the book and I’m sorry I’m rambling here, but the sense I get from the book is that the backstage Vince McMahon is very much like TV McMahon, down down to the, like, tackle laugh whenever you find something surprisingly funny. You know,
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Vince is
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obviously an understatement to say a complex interesting individual But he really is a bittersweet symphony song, a million different people from one day to the next. Yeah. At this heart, he’s a performer. And when you’re at TV, when you’re at a TV taping, you kinda
-
take
-
on the persona of a performer even when you’re not on television even if you’re backstage. So if that means, like, running the production meeting or, you know, having meetings with individual wrestlers, you’re kind of in a performer phase because you’re putting on
-
a show whether
-
you’re on TV or not versus when you’re at Stanford, and
-
that’s where the
-
WWE,
-
you know, corporate headquarters are. And you’re just meeting either one on one or meeting in a small group or or, you know, in this case, doing board meetings or doing individual, you know, meetings with any of the corporate officers of of WWE. He’s not in full mister McMahon mode. He he’s much more reserved, much more down to earth. You know, obviously, it was very, very important that he eat something because he can get very angry if he’s not Fed.
-
But, you know, in in general, the the dichotomy between, you know, Vince, TV versus Vince in Stanford was pretty noticeable as far as and and I think a lot of that has to do with just, again, that live show or even taped show, energy, and the let’s put on a show wrestling promoter kinda overall aura and feel. Whereas, you know, back during the week when we’re not a TV, you know, there could be intense moments here and there, but for the most part, there’s a much more grounded relatively stable type of type of meetings and type of interactions where where is that TV? It’s just, yeah, fully, like — Yeah. — we can see the next level. Alright.
-
So let’s let’s
-
skip ahead of it and you know, the the rock kinda gets you into wrestling in a weird way, in a in a in a more serious way than than the MTV Summer Slane promos. But he also gets you out of wrestling in the in the in the end here. And you you’re now at his production company, seven bucks. You guys are I I you just started or are about to start taping season three of Young Rock, right, with you EP. And I hear it’s coming back to the is
-
gonna be taping in the states this year, which is very exciting. Oh, it’s huge. We’re we’re shooting in Memphis starting in September. With a eleven for November fourth premier date on Fridays. So, yeah, this is something it is ironic.
-
I never really thought of it that way, but he he brought me in and took me out. It’s it’s absolutely right and accurate. You know, because at the time, he was starting his own production company, and he wanted to take me with them. And it wasn’t like it wasn’t like I hadn’t indicated to him that if opportunity like this ever arises, please let me know as soon as possible. Because, you know, five years as a writer in WWE — Yeah.
-
— but one year I should say is like years, I think, in Hollywood, you know, just the time and just the overall everything to it. So, you know, after about when he first approached me about it in two thousand twelve, it had been, like, thirteen years or so. And I was just ready. I was ready to go. And then, you know, I was able to finagle a deal with WWE and with seven box Duane and Danny where I could work part time for both for and that lasted for, like, about three years or so.
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And then in two thousand fifteen, he’s like, alright. We’re ready to go if you are. And I’m like, I have been ready for a long time. Let’s do it. So yeah.
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And and part of that is, you know, it’s funny because even though where outside of WWE, you know, at at Duane obviously is third generation wrestler. Grandfather, his grandmother was a promoter, his dad, Rocky Johnson, obviously. And I still have my WWE roots too. So even though we are producing plenty of shows that don’t involve wrestling. You know, it’s still in our DNA, so we have tales from the territories.
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We have young rock. We have even even the NFL has come back back when we bought in twenty two thousand one that I would never have anything to do with that football league again. But it’s back in a much, much better form, one that I’m excited about. So that’s good. You know, it is not the XfL depicted in the book and the story of how it came to be and went away.
-
But, yeah, when we have other wrestling related adjacent projects, in development too. So it’s just something we love and something that we always are gonna come back to, but it’s it’s nice that we have you know, a pretty white palette and plenty of other things as well. You didn’t mention it, but one
-
one that I quite enjoy is fighting with my family. Starting Florence Pew. Pretty five seven bucks. Very it’s a it’s a it’s a good look at kind of the I don’t know, backstage real life life of what it takes to become a wrestler in the in the in the big leagues. So check that out if you get a chance.
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I you know, part part of
-
this this has to do
-
with the mainstreaming of wrestling. And and also the like, not just the mainstreaming of wrestling, but also the mainstreaming of wrestlers. I mean, obviously, Johnson, one of the biggest stars in the world. Johnson, one of the biggest stars in the world. How how from your perspective is somebody who kind of watched all of this happen in real time.
-
How is this come about. I mean, how is the world accepted wrestlers as, like, you can absolutely be number one biggest star in
-
the world now. I
-
think a lot of it just has to do with the sheer talent of the individuals who’ve ascended to that level. I mean, like, obviously, you know, the world has seen what Duane Johnson can do since he hosted SNL in two thousand and then embarked on his movie career. But John Cena, Dave Batista. Like, these guys are just just truly, truly super talented. And that was one of the things
-
you know,
-
that I always shook my head at in the beginning of John’s movie career because he was being cast in, you know, at the time WWE films the marine and twelve rounds. And, you know, the movies is this apart from the movies themselves? This has nothing to do with it. It was just the the the the way John was portrayed as kinda like this serious, no nonsense, you know, action hero Whereas in real life, we know, you know, that peacemaker John Cena is way closer to real life John Cena. You know, than Marine John Cena.
-
It just is. He’s he’s funny. He’s irreverent. You know? And and Dave, Patista, for instance, is, like, you know, very he’s so full.
-
And, you know, it is a very, like you know, and and and also very dryly, subtly hilarious. You know, you saw that backstage at WWE. It really wasn’t other than a couple of vignettes and lines and everything, it was never really wrapped into because he was a main presenter. He was this gigantic, you know, muscle star. What have you?
-
And dry humor, you know, is really isn’t one of the assets usually that that, you know, a top wrestler is usually, you know, put in the forefront. But he was perfect as dracks and and and and employed runner and then everything else. You know, I think I think, like, the popularity of wrestling over the years has it has it has gotten more mainstream. It has gotten, you know, part of that as much as I hated to write when we took a step back from PG fourteen rating to PG, Strategically, that was probably a good idea as far as gaining a little bit more mainstream acceptance being able to be taken in more by younger kids and and that kind of thing and and parents letting them kid letting the kids go. And and that kinda opened up floodgates.
-
I mean, we have, you know, for better or worse, I have a whole chapter about the infamous guest host era. Whether we went on a weird turn as far as bringing in different Hollywood star like SNL every week to host the show. Went off the rails pretty quickly even though there were some great episodes. But all of that, I think, contributed to a little bit more you know, mainstream acceptance, you know, the fact that WWE is, like, now a part of peacock and everything. You know, when I started as popular as it was and it was very popular.
-
Like, if you look at the advertisements during it, it was, you know, stacker two energy pills and and, you know, it wasn’t the,
-
like, mainstream
-
type of advertisers or acceptance or that kind of thing. It’s still it was extraordinarily popular. But as you can just see from their TV deals nowadays, you know, the the TV deal that they get for USA and from Box per rod, SmackDown is gigantic compared to what it is back then even though the ratings are much smaller with TV being segmented and streaming and everything most. It’s all part of the just, like, kind of, the mainstream acceptance of of WWE and AEW on on Turner and everything else. And then, yeah, when you get stars that are pretty undeniable in, like, the rock and John Cena and Batista.
-
And by the way, there are plenty more too. You know, that are that are gonna be huge movie stars coming out of WWE. And there is a, w as well, you know, down the pike and over the years. It’s just a matter of you know, what role they’re gonna break through and do it. It
-
really is
-
key that getting that first big role or not even the first big role, the first smart roll that kind of breaks them out of the mold. I mean, with the rock you had him in B Cool and Southland Tales. Right? Southland Tales, I like, I’m one of seven people on the planet who like that movie. But, you know, his his his performance in that, like, gives you a different side of him.
-
It gives you a different humor aside. Again, with John Cena, you know, it wasn’t until train wreck. The people were like, oh, okay. He can he can do something other than, like, the marine or, you know, kind of, Dudley do right time. And Batista, you know, dracks, obviously.
-
But but really, it was that turn in Blade Runner twenty forty nine. You know, Danny Villeneuve saw something and him was like, okay. He can do not just big hulking guy. I mean, he can’t he does that in that role as well, but, you know, there’s there’s more to him and — Yeah. — it’s it’s really it’s really interesting.
-
Alright. We’re running long here. So I may yeah. I just once again, I’ll tell everybody. You pick up the book if you’re if you love wrestling.
-
If you wanna hear stories, I mean, stories about rowdy, rowdy Piper. We haven’t talked about that. You know, as you mentioned, the XFL, the XFL chapter is hilarious. I’ve poor Stephanie McMahon. I just felt so bad for her reading that.
-
But, you know, pick up the book. There’s just one problem. Tales from the former one time seventh most powerful person in the w w e. Brian Goreth Gorethts is your name, I say, almost messed it up there. Brian Gorethts is is the the name of the author.
-
Make sure you you pick it up. And I always like to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked. If there’s anything you think people should know about the WWE, about I don’t know the world of Hollywood working working in seven bucks. I mean, I I’m I’m open to anything you wanna tell folks.
-
You know, look,
-
I I don’t really I I I don’t
-
I’m I’m
-
always terrible at these kind of questions because I have this almost superpower to come up with the perfect response roughly five minutes after we sign off and go out the air. But, you know, as I kinda, like, wrap up the book, it’s, like, just you
-
know,
-
I guess, it’s
-
not really a question, but I’ll just leave it with a sentiment of, like, you truly I know it’s it’s cliche to say, but you really truly never know, you know, what the hell this life in this crazy world is gonna give you because for me, like, the last thing in the world I was ever thinking of despite being a big fan as a kid would be become a wrestling writer. And never even considered, you know, television development either. You know, it was straight ahead sitcom. Gotta do what my uncle did. And
-
yeah. And then,
-
you know, one thing leads to another and you just, you know, you take the ride and and see where it takes you. And sometimes, be pretty amazing. O’Brien,
-
thank you very much for being on the show. Again, everybody go pick up the book at say on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever books are sold. You can you can get a copy. And I will be back next week with another episode of The Bulwark goes to Hollywood. See you
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guys then. Get an inside look at Hollywood with Michael Rosenbaum at
-
get inside Deborah and Whoa. If you have to choose between True Blood daredevil to do again.
-
Partially because the Marvel series feel finished to me because we got canceled when we thought we were gonna have more. Whereas true blood, we did get to wrap it up. I knew that we were wrapping it up. I could say goodbye to everyone. I still something from the set.
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I know I didn’t get to steal anything from our daredevil set. Inside
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of you with Michael Rosenbaum, wherever you listen.