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Little Steven Unplugged: Music, Politics, and Sopranos (with Steven Van Zandt)

December 23, 2023
Notes
Transcript
On this special Saturday edition of TNL Sunday, Steven Van Zandt of the E Street Band joins Tim and JVL to cover everything from politics and apartheid to the ’80s, the politics of the 2020s, and his ever evolving career. 

Get the scoop on his music journey, genre-blending tricks, and thoughts on race in the industry. Plus, he spills the beans on acting, ‘The Sopranos,’ and how TV shows mix with his tunes. Don’t miss the stories and laughs in this killer interview!”

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:09

    Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark next level. I’m your host Tim Miller. It’s the Chris this edition of our Sunday interview. We wanted to get it out to you. For Christmas weekend, you guys need a little treat, a little break from the family for those of you that need that, not me, love and lost, love my family, but some of you might need a little break.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:26

    And, we wanted to give you a little bit of content, something sweet, a little treat some peppermint, eggnog, and some stevie van’s ant. That’s right. Of the East Street band, of the Sopanos. Of Little Stephen and the disciples of Seoul, Lily Homer, which I haven’t watched is kind of embarrassing, but that might be my Christmas streamer. It was an absolutely delightful interview about Stevie’s political activism.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:53

    He really made a consequential life choice. In the 1980s. Right as Bruce Springs’s team was taking off and becoming the most famous act of the world, it leaves the band to go and become a musician that focuses on political activism, particularly apartheid in South Africa. It is a decision that has ripples throughout his whole life. And so I wanted to bring him on, and we could talk about that, but also, you know, have a little fun and reminisce about the Sopranos.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:23

    And so I think you guys are really gonna like it. Think you’re gonna like it. JBL joined because he’s a nerd on this stuff. It’s a wonderful interview. We’ll be back on Wednesday with Saren JBL for our new year’s edition of the next level predictions for twenty twenty four, other thoughts, depending what happens in the news, So make sure to check back from that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:42

    We are not leaving you hanging over the holidays. Plenty of content coming out of us. So make sure to download, make sure to like to subscribe to comment. And, I hope you guys all have a Merry Christmas with you and yours. I hope Santa brings your Ron DeSantis not Cole.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:01

    Up next, Stevy Van Zant, JBL and yours truly, but first, my buddies in acid tongue will catch y’all on Wednesday. Please.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:21

    Hello,
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:28

    and welcome to the Bulwark Next level Sunday interview. I’m your host Tim Miller with my co host JBL with, oh man, we are lucky today. We’ve got Stephen Vanzant author. Of a memoir, unrequited infatuations, great memoir name. You might have heard of him in the East Street band.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:44

    He, played Sylvia and Sopranos and Lily Humber. We can talk about the rest of it. A lot of other stuff. Little Stephen was a solo act that I want to get to. So Steve, if you don’t mind, the impetus for this was The circuses gets cancelled and you are like the biggest advocate on social media, shit posting show time for canceling the circus.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:07

    Which, we really appreciate it. And I reached out to you. So so thank you very much for being a loyal viewer.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:14

    Well, I mean, the timing is what got me. You know? Yeah. I mean, bad enough cancelling, you know, one of the few real political shows on TV, but you’re gonna cancel it this year, really? I mean, there’s like nothing happening next year politically.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:31

    You know?
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:32

    It did seem poorly tied. It was frustrating for me. So I will say this though because I’m a nineties kid. So I knew you from like Sopranos and you know, e street band kind of re reunion era. You know, I thought maybe you’re just one of those guys that like, you know, in your twilight years likes watching premium cable, you know?
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:50

    I did not know about your political background at all until I searched it. I was like, Why does he care so much about the circus? And so if you don’t mind, I wanna start there because I said in your memoir, you talk about this a lot. Maybe not the only reason, but one of the key reasons from your initial departure from the street band was because you wanted to do more political work and then your solo act was like almost entirely political. So what motivated that for you?
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:16

    Yeah. Basically growing up in the sixties, I call it the renaissance period, and I mean that sincerely When the greatest art being made, it’s also the most commercial, you find yourself, in a, in a renaissance period. Everybody had to have a very, specific identity. You know, now that would change beginning in the seventies. I talked about this in great detail in the book, but basically we went from a monoculture surprisingly, surprisingly, because we’re anything but a monoculture as you will know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:48

    But artistically, you know, musically, at least, at least in terms of popular music, we were very much a monoculture right through the sixties, until the seventies were, which, with the great fragmentation, you know. But having grown up with everybody having such a specific identity, even though that was the the beginning of hybrids, you know, from the from then on, starting in the seventies, there would be a combinations of combinations of bands, you know, Harold Smith would be a combination of, the Rolling Stones and the yardbirds. Yeah. You know, and and the various combinations of things would start to, you know, create the the new, pop music. But having grown up with that, I had a very, a very strict sort of, a definition in my mind.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:25

    If I’m gonna make solo records, what’s gonna be my identity. You know, the world doesn’t need a bunch of love songs from a former side man, you know, kind of a thing. So I decided, you know, I I got into politics, just accidentally started reading books for the first time in my life. And, first couple of books I read happen to be by Nom Chomski. So, I kind of, you know, got very political, very fast.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:51

    And, decided, you know, that would be my identity. You know, there had been a couple of political songs here and there through the years. Obviously, You know, Stephen Stills and Buffalo Springfield had for what it’s worth and, Jefferson Airplane, volunteers of America, and the the the most notable. It would have been Crosby Stills in NASH, you know, Neil Youngs, Ohio. And Bob Dylan, of course, here and there, but, but basically, no one was doing it full time.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:18

    So I said, I’ll, I’m gonna, I’ll do, I’ll do nothing but politics full time. And that would be my identity. And so I I I started this adventure, this artistic adventure of combining, you know, journalism and art together and started talking about political issues. The one that got attention, of course, was I work with South Africa on the Sun City project. Where we, really had a lot.
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:41

    Tops about that because I just this was not, I mean, I don’t know. JV y’all might be, you know, about this little older than me. This was a total for me. I knew nothing. I did not know what Sun City was.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:19

    Maybe share it with people like what you decided to do and why
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:22

    Yeah. There there was, South Africa at the time had, these, something like, you know, twenty six million Bulwark people and three million white people, and the black people weren’t allowed to vote. Among other problems, you know, it was it was called the apartheid system, the apartheid meaning separation. And, it was just a one of those countries that needed to be dealt with. And, I felt, you know, with all the problems in Africa and they’re, and there’s just, you know, they’re endless.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:52

    I thought no one’s gonna ever get to the other problems in Africa until we South Africa, which is just the most egregious of of them all. So, with the era of, you know, of multi artist, sort of events,
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:05

    We are the world.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:07

    Yeah. Yeah. We are the world and, the Christmas one and well, they were mostly concerned with feeding. Feeding people in Africa, which is great, you know. But I took my my thing was drawing the line between social concerns and political concerns.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:22

    So my my record, you know, politics, you know, your name names, you know, you say, here’s what’s wrong, here’s who’s doing it, and here’s how we fix it, you know. So I actually named Ronald Reagan in the song, you know, which at the time you may recall he was god or maybe before your time. Actually, it was before your time. But he was, he was, he was godlike at the time. And, everybody was a very big fan of his except me.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:49

    And, Anyway, so we, we had a lot to do with, raising the consciousness of, of the country because it wasn’t even an issue in America. Your whole apartheid, thing was big in Europe. You know, they were they were more aware of it, but we weren’t really, that into it. In America. And so we made it an issue for the first time because we knew the, this investment, you know, the the financial legislation was gonna come that was gonna basically shut South Africa down this investment legislation.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:19

    And so we had to and we knew Reagan was gonna veto it. And at that time, there was no such thing as overriding a Reagan veto. So we had to really work hard to make sure that the consciousness was such that we were able to actually override his veto. And that’s exactly what happened. The legislation came across his desk.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:38

    He vetoed it as we expected, and it was overridden. With Republican votes, may I add? Very, very different Republican party
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:45

    back in Different era.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:46

    You know, yeah. My my father was a goldwater Republican. So I know all about that. I know all about that world. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:53

    But the Sun City element of it though is, like, so interesting because that’s the part that I think you guys had a direct impact on that. That was the part that I was unfamiliar with because it was it’s like it’s Vegas, basically. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Sorry.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:04

    And everybody would go play.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:05

    At the time, my foundation was dealing with mostly with Native American issues. And they took a look at our how we had dealt with Native Americans and decided what a good idea. This whole reservation thing, But they couldn’t get away with the reservation thing. So instead, they said, you know what? We’re gonna make it a tribal thing and bring all of the black people back to their tribal homelands, okay, forcibly.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:30

    The idea being we will take all and they’re all basically workers, you know, you know, working in in the minds. Right? So we’ll we’ll get all of the black people back to their homelands, which was just kind of fictitious in you know, they weren’t very tribal in South Africa except for the Zulu, it’s the home of the story. But basically, the attitude was not very tribal And they had no idea where their homelands were. You know, it was just a complete sort of bullshit kinda routine.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:56

    And they the idea would bring all the black workers back to their homelands, then make South Africa a democracy, and then bring them all back as immigrant labor. You know, migrant labor, you know? Which was a, you know, brilliantly evil scheme, you know. And so one of these phony homelands was Babuto Swana, which is where this resort called Sun City was. And what they were doing was overpaying everybody to come play Sun City because The, the United Nations, boycott was already in place.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:28

    That had been in place almost since the beginning of the United Nations. Very early on. And they were really pissed off. The sports boycott, especially was very effective. They were really pissed off about that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:39

    They couldn’t take part in the Olympics, you know. So the sports boycott’s going on. The economic boycott is the home run that we have to hit. And in between is the cultural boycott. That’s why I thought let’s do that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:52

    Connect it to, and then we can also publicize what’s going on. So we basically exposed the whole phony homeland concept and said to people who are being overpaid to go play the Sun City Vegas type resort, boycott the resort. Because by playing that resort, you’re violating the UN boycott, you know, without knowing it. You know, and we gave everybody the the benefit of the doubt. Was very confusing for people.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:18

    They were paying them like a lot. I mean, like, you know, I forget how much, like, two million a week or something to go down and play. And so we cut off the Sun City Resort immediately. It was immediately effective. And we were also able to bring the attention of the entire departheid issue to America.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:38

    And like I said, you know, Bill Bradley brought me to the Senate to speak to the Senate about it and, And we were able to really raise the consciousness, to the point where we overrode Reagan Vito’s. And once that legislation went into place, fell like Domino’s, you know, the unholy trinity as I called them, which was Reagan thatcher and Cole, you know, the UK and and Germany they had to follow suit. And, once the banks cut them off, they had to release Nelson Mandela. And, you know, it became, We actually It’s a
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:10

    great song. We we ain’t gonna play sunset. It was not subtle. Did you ever get to meet Mendel?
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:16

    Mandela, yeah. Yeah. He came I met him twice. Just had one short conversation with him, unfortunately, but, we did two Wembly shows once to get him out of jail. And then once to celebrate, they’d be got him out of jail.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:33

    And then he came to America because they were about to have their first, election. You know? And so, he was just another guy running from his political party, you know? Yeah. So all all the different ten different cities in America.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:47

    I think it was all promised, you know, half a million dollars. And it’s a whole story that goes with that that’s in the book. But, but basically, I met him when he came down to the tribeca Grill, me, me, and and Bobby De Niro and spike Lee and Eddie Murphy put on a dinner with Mandela at the tribeca Grill, you know, a dinner at his place. And he came down and we had a little we had a little conversation and, That was, that was, you know, he he was a remarkable man. You know, I I I haven’t met anybody quite like him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:18

    Muhammad Ali was was close. Certain people have that kind of aura, man. It’s like, you know, you picture the holy men of the past, you know, be they, you know, real or or not. But if if they, you know, you picture like a Jesus Christ or, or, Moses or Mohammad or a Buddha, you know, having a certain aura. And he had that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:39

    He had that kind of really mystical kind of aura about him. Mohammed Ali had a little bit of that too. But but Mandela was really it was really striking when you met when you met him, he just had a thing that was unique. You know?
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:51

    Okay. Fast forwarding to now, it is conversation about all this. Like you were kind of filling a void, right? Like other people weren’t doing this and you see this now there’s like all this pressure on. Like where are you on?
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:01

    Like the oh Taylor Swift should be speaking out more discourse or like where do you think now? Fast forwarding what? Twenty five years from that? Like like what is obligation of artists?
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:14

    Well, I think we’re, you know, we’re citizens first and, I I’ve always told people, look, you know, do your homework before you open your mouth first of all. But, you know, you have every right to do so. You have every right now, you know, and and know that you’re gonna you’re risking some of your, commercial success. Fortunately or unfortunately, I had no commercial success to risk. So I didn’t I mean, you you
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:41

    did have epically bad timing. I guess we kind of fast forwarded that. I mean, you literally were like, I’m gonna leave Bruce Springstein and and do and do my own thing where I focus on advocating for apartheid, right as Bruce Springstein became the Taylor Swift of nineteen eighty three. Like, right? Like, right at the moment.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:59

    That, that, that takes a certain gift. You know, it’s not easy. You know, yeah. So, so I wasn’t, I wasn’t feeling, yeah, that kind of risk of my, of my, career, which didn’t exist. But, but people like Taylor swift or, you know, They have to know that, you know, you are gonna, you are gonna piss some people off, and it’s gonna cost you some sales, but in her case, it no longer matters.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:25

    Luckily. But, no, I I encourage people to, you know, do their homework if they’re gonna get involved, you know, don’t just speak, emotionally or, or, you know, after one incident happens, you know, don’t generalize about, you know, do a little do a little research before you start talking about it. It’s all I can encourage people to do.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:50

    Well, I I don’t I don’t know if you’re still playing your consigliere role with Bruce, but I do think that one absence, one gap is that there just aren’t the Democrats have struggled to find people that can speak to that demographic. And a lot of times from self selecting. Right? It’s call it it’s it’s the types of folks that are going to IVs and living in the coasts, like, don’t are are struggling to be able to carry that message that you’re talking about.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:12

    We do it all all day long. That’s all we do. You know what I mean? That’s, that’s, that’s our people. That’s who we are.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:18

    You know, we’re working class people ourselves. You know, that’s where we come from. You know, in the end, I I I just you don’t contest two thirds of the races. I’m like, how how are you supposed to win? You know?
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:30

    Alright. Well, we we might be we might be moving you to Lexington. To have you take this on. I don’t know if you got a second place there. JBL wanna talk Bruce first?
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:38

    Music. Do you wanna talk sopranos? Where do you wanna go?
  • Speaker 3
    0:17:41

    Hell, I I’d love to start with
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:44

    Let’s do that.
  • Speaker 3
    0:17:45

    Born in the USA, that album comes out. I’m, like, ten years old. And, it’s one of the first records that I just sort of latch on too. He started listening. And then he was like, I’m a little older.
  • Speaker 3
    0:17:56

    I went back and did other stuff. I’ve never spoken to somebody before who played at Windley. Like, what’s that like? You know, that must’ve been so at first, what is the scene like in Asbury Park? Cause you’re coming up, you know, back in the old days before everything broke big, was that whole world like?
  • Speaker 3
    0:18:13

    Almost every rock musician has that story about the scene, you know, like, the axle rose will tell you what the LA rock scene was like. Four guns and roses broke big. And you were part of, like, a real scene around Asbury Park in New Jersey Shore. So start with that. What was that like when you were a kid?
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:28

    Yeah. By the time we got to Asbury Park, we really wasn’t much of a scene. We we had to kinda create it. There had been riots, you know, these these are this is the years of the riots starting, you know, in the late late sixties and there’s lots of riots for lots of good reasons. Lots of assassinations and, you know, And so Asbury, by the time we kinda got there, we all came from different, you know, I came from the north.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:54

    The bruce came from the west. And we kind of all met, you know, in this because of this one club in Asbury Park called the Upstage Club, which was open from eight o’clock at night to five in the morning. For kids, you know, no, no booze, you know? So it was a very unique, kind of moment And, the rent was really cheap because, you know, nope. It was a way it was a it was a ghost ghost town.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:21

    Yeah. The the rides were still open on the weekend. For a while before that stopped completely eventually. But, you know, the ferris wheel and stuff was still working on the weekend. So people would come down on the weekend.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:32

    And once we moved from Upstage club, we went across the track so to speak to and became a bar band, which was a a difficult transition to make. Because in those days, you had to play the top forty if you wanted to play in a bar. And by the seventies, top forty was not very cool. It was the coolest music, as far as I’m concerned, the highest evolution of our art form was, the pop music of the sixties. But by the seventies, you know, albums had taken over, you know, you know, more, it was it was quite a quite a shift.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:08

    From singles to albums and and all of that. But basically, the top forty was no longer hip. So, we found a club, that was gonna go out of business. My memory is that the roof had caved in from a hurricane or something. And so we talked the owners into into hiring us, but we wouldn’t charge them anything.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:27

    We would just charge, you know, just play for the door. They take the bar, but we get to play whatever we wanted, which as far as I know, was the first time that ever happened in New Jersey. And because they were gonna just, you know, they were gonna close, like, you know, six weeks later just trying to get what they could out of out of the out of the tourists in the summer there. You know, we had fifty people the first week, and then, you know, went in a hundred, and then two hundred, and then they fixed the roof, You know? And, and then, you know, we ended up, selling out, you know, we we went to a second night, went to a third night.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:02

    So we we, we created this residency, and we created a scene, basically, that that didn’t really exist. At the same time, Bruce had had gotten signed, which was a big deal to get a record deal. But even though that was a big deal and kind of raised his prestige a little bit, his first two records hadn’t sold at all. So the nature of the business The business, if you if you will, was was three levels. Okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:33

    You had your teenage years where anything goes, which was great, complete freedom. Then you have the bar band years where, you know, whatever you can do. And then you get into the business. If you’re lucky enough to get into the industry, then then there’s the industry years. Well, when you get to the industry, now there’s different rules applied, you know, different rules applied to all three strata.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:55

    And, The rules went through in the industry is you have to play to showcase clubs. Every city had a showcase club in those days. And Tokyo would play the showcase clubs. And in those days, the record company would give you tour support, believe it or not. So it was amazing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:10

    Know, they give you a quarter million dollars if you want to road. In addition to the quarter million dollars it would give you to make your record, she managed to spend every penny of, you know. I mean, my record company now makes, like, makes, like, fifty albums for that for
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:24

    that amount of money, you know. But I wanna ask you for a ledger of where the money was going.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:30

    I’m telling you. And it wasn’t even going up our nose yet, by the way. That that a little bit later. So you played at showcase clubs, you know, and and he had done that, and then you go back a second time, And then that’s it. And then you can’t work unless unless you graduate to the theater level in those days.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:49

    You were kinda done, you know? So Bruce couldn’t work anymore. So he was hanging out with us, you know, at with with with south side John and the Edbury Jew. With the band, we had started. Me and south side had started.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:01

    And, and we were having all the fun. I mean, you know,
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:04

    I mean, in retrospect, shouldn’t it have been Bruce Springstein and the Asbury jukes?
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:09

    Should should it have been?
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:10

    Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:12

    No. No. It was a different band. It was I don’t know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:18

    I mean, that has kind of a, I don’t know, it’s got a ring to it. Okay. I’m just saying while we’re while we’re while we’re reflecting,
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:24

    I’m not sure south side would agree with that. Exactly. But but, no, he Bruce had going off with the East Prepant and, So me and south side Johnny just started the jukes and, and it was a real barber and, you know, we were playing, you know, album tracks from Otis Reading and Sam and Dave and, and, you know, just, you know, the different things that were on the radio. And, anyway, so so Bruce to us hanging out with us, and and it became and I think that I think that brought a little bit more prestige to the scene. I don’t know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:56

    But, pretty soon we were selling out three nights a week. And, And then the Duke’s got a record deal. And on we went, and then I, and then I ended up joining the Street ban after that. And that was that.
  • Speaker 3
    0:24:10

    What’s it like from going from playing in in a bar to playing Wendy?
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:14

    Well, in our case, I mean, you build that audience one person at a time in those days. You know what I mean? It wasn’t like he went from the stone pony to Limbley. You know, you go to a you go to a town three or four times in a year. And you play the club, and then you play two clubs, and then you play three clubs, and then you play the theater, then you play two theaters, then you play three theaters, then you play the arena, and you play two arenas, and then you play the stadium.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:38

    You know what I mean? You had to you know, so you’re building that audience, you know, literally one person at a time. So by the time you get to these stadiums, you know, you feel like you know half the people in the audience already, and, And you’ve had a chance to make that transition artistically, you know, by then, if if you’re lucky, I mean, and, unfortunately, I think those days are over. Right? I we’re not we’re not being replaced.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:05

    It doesn’t look like. You know, Taylor Swift aside, you know, the rock world isn’t isn’t quite, as healthy as as we’d like it to be, you know,
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:14

    It’s tough. I don’t even hear some here in New Orleans and like that. So that stuff still comes through here, right? And but like, I don’t know. Do you know the band Wednesday from your underground garage?
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:23

    They’re like kind of the punk rock band. You should check them out Wednesday had a really so they had this great record this year. That’s like, you know, it was like a pitchfork top five record. And, you know, I went to see them at this bar and there’s like fifty people there. You know, it’s just it really is a lot.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:37

    Like, that’s just the nature of the thing. But one one other thing I’m musically, I had to ask you and I was listening to one of the other interviews. You said that, in the New Orleans scene. I mean, my Tippetina shirt. You said that Allen Tucson was one of your influences.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:50

    And that kind of surprised me because I don’t like to really think about the the bridge between kind of the New Orleans, funk scene, and and Bruce. So, like, talk about that. I don’t really, it’s hard for me to get my head in the eras. Like, he’s older than you guys. So, like, in what way was it an influence?
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:05

    Well, I mean, first of all, and I know this is not easy. And believe me, I I I’ve been dealing with it, you know, for fifty years. There’s Bruce’s world and then there’s mine.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:15

    Right. I guess that’s so you’re speaking more of the the disciples of soul. Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:18

    When you
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:19

    were talking about that, you’re talking about the disciples of soul. Yeah. Got it. That makes more sense.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:22

    And so, it is just one of the, one of the main influences, you know, it was it was New Orleans. It was it was Memphis. You know, and, and, and in Chicago, the three main, you know, cities, be it Soul Music, the old R and B, or blues, you know, that’s pretty much, the main influences, really. You know? So that Sun City record we were
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:47

    talking about earlier, like, you brought all these guests together, and some of the guests were like on that song or run DMC and some of these early kind of hip hop guys That was not really happening in nineteen. When was the Sun City record? Nineteen eighty five, eighty four, eighty five. Yes. Like, I don’t think that, like, Was that the first time that it happened that like the rock world and the hip hop guys were were were blending?
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:16

    Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the aerosmith run the MC thing was was just after that, I think. But, at the time, it was not hip. You know, the whole the whole It wasn’t even called hip hop yet.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:28

    It, you know, it was still called rap music. And, and, the industry was trying to squash it. They didn’t they didn’t get it. They didn’t relate to it. And, I felt very strongly about it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:39

    And so did the other my other three compatriots on on the on the Sun City project, Arthur Baker, Danny Schector, and Hart Perry, we felt very strongly about this new, this new thing called rap music because It was a chance for black people to express themselves for the first time. Something that had been a prerequisite in the white world, in the white rock world, you know, starting with Bob Dylan, obviously, you know, in order to be a serious white rock artist, You, you know, you were required to express yourself. I mean, that was, what the art form was all about.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:17

    You’re saying that in the context of like how the soul guys that Marvin gays and them, they’d been quashed, right? Like they didn’t want them to do anything that would scare white people. Right? Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:26

    That’s right. That’s right. But but Marvin Gay was the, the thing that broke through because and it was a big big fight he had with with Barry Gordon, head of Motown. And and, I think they held up, I think they held up that album for, like, a year, what’s going on. Because, Barry Gordon was scared to death.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:45

    It was gonna end Marvin Gay’s career and and Motown, who were already, shaky at that point. Beginning in the early 70s, it started to become a little shaky. This is before the Norman Woodfield psychedelic soul stuff started, You know, they would have a whole second career, you know, starting with them and then and then the Jackson’s after that. But Marvin Gay really broke through with what’s going on, and and it was not encouraged in in in fact, it was discouraged. And, and man Stevie Wonder did the same thing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:14

    He, he started to express himself with those next couple of albums. Ron DeSantis started to loosen up a little bit, but it wasn’t quite, normal thing yet for for black artists to, like, to be that expressive. Now, you we of course, there were some exceptions, sly in a family stone, certainly, George Clinton, certainly And before that, in the jazz world, Gil Scott Heron, you know, it wasn’t really rock music, but, but Gil Scott Heron, that’s why he was so important. It was so important to me to have him on the Sun City record.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:44

    He was on the Sun City thing too. Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:46

    So here comes this rap music, and and now it’s like, wow, man. They’re like really talking about what’s going on. You know? And I wanted to encourage it. And, the industry people said to me, you mean, you’re you’re you’re blowing this Sun City thing by putting them on the record.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:00

    We’re you’re gonna put Melie Mel on next to Miles Davis, and and and and Jackson Brown, you know? And I was like, yes, I am. You know, I I feel less strongly about it. You know, I think this is a really a healthy thing for the industry. And, we were the first ones I think to really give rap, which was about to be called hip hop, the credibility, you know, because we were all about credibility.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:24

    That’s all that’s all all we did was credibility, you know. So it was it was an important moment, I think. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:30

    Alright. So I’m sorry. One more thing about this, then JV on best overview for the sopranos. It I just listened to you talk about it. I’m just struck by.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:36

    I forget one of your other interviews I was listening to. He said, you know, had you stuck with Bruce in the East Street, right? When I was taking off you know, who knows what you would have done. Right? Like, you might have just been sitting on your yacht, like drinking champagne.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:48

    And there’s something, and this, like, goes to a lot of what we talk the bulwark in a different context is just like there’s something about making a change that to do something that you feel is fulfilling. You know? And like you have like you have to kind of look back on and feel very fulfilled even though maybe maybe your house isn’t as big as it could have been. You know, maybe you don’t have as many properties as you might have, but there has to be something fulfilling about that. No.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:10

    Yes, no.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:11

    I I tell you the truth, man. This was I I really, felt better about the whole thing having written the book. The book really, really did help me in that way. Cause in the back of my mind, all these years, I’ve always said, you know, If only I could have stayed in the band and done all these things at the same time, you know, I would have the perfect life, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:38

    Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:38

    And then when you go back because I never I never look back. Right? I never I never I never I never I’m never looking back. But now you’re writing a book, you have to look back. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:47

    So now I’m I’m reliving my past for the first time. And as I go through it, you know, you start to say, oh, I see why I did that and why and how that led to that. And by the way, there’s no way I could have done both of these things at the same time.
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:02

    You can’t go commercial and I get commercial and get on radio and get famous and then the same time you’re like, oh, okay, now I’m gonna do an apartheid wreckers, you know, like that probably wouldn’t have worked.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:12

    Or or or or or or saying that Bruce, you know, by the way, would you mind that I’m gonna take six months off and see if I can act, you know, from
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:20

    an actor? You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:21

    Would would you mind just kinda, you know, going on hiatus for six months? You know? So, I mean, and and and look, I I was hoping to book the reason why I wrote the book was I was hoping it would be useful to people. Okay? And and I think yours is also, by the way, because in the back of my mind, you know, when I left East Street band, I wasn’t just changing jobs.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:43

    I was ending my life, you know, my life ended. I didn’t have a plan b. I didn’t have anywhere to go. And so now you look back, and you think, well, I thought my life ended at the time. But everything I’ve accomplished I did since then, since I left, you know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:00

    So I thought that could be useful to people who hit the wall, you know, your your original dream doesn’t work out, you know, whatever your original dream job or Whatever it might be, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:12

    I’m never gonna be White House press secretary, baby,
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:14

    just is
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:14

    what it is.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:18

    Yeah. You never know. You never know. But, you know, and and just when you think your life’s over, if you can find a way to keep moving forward somehow, you know, don’t succumb to drugs or alcohol or suicide, all of which I considered.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:35

    A resentment
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:36

    You know? Yeah. If you can just kind of move forward, you know, you’ll find a destiny maybe has some other things in mind for you. So I was hoping that the book would be useful that way. But it made me it made me feel a lot better about my seemingly insane decisions,
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:51

    you know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:52

    When I look back now, I’m like, you know, I can actually understand why I did that. And the truth is I I I would not have not to Pranos or Lily Hammer or my school curriculum or, you know, my radio shows, my radio network or or my, my record company, or, or, you know, probably none of that would happen. So
  • Speaker 3
    0:34:10

    You’ve lived this really big life. And, I don’t know that you do that if you stay with the sure thing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:18

    Well, right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:34:19

    You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:19

    You know, But the time, it seems kinda
  • Speaker 3
    0:34:23

    Oh, you’re sure. Terrifying. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:24

    You’re jumping
  • Speaker 3
    0:34:25

    off the building.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:26

    You know, I mean, I I actually on my way to South Africa. It it it occurred to me. You know, you know, I’m a little bit slow. And it occurred to me that I had fucked. I I’d worked for fifteen years.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:40

    And finally, we’re just about to make a living. You know, we’re we’re we’re just about to score. And I leave, you know, and and all fear of my and my my body left, you know. I had I I just became fearless at that point, which is, you know, to to say suicidal, basically, which really helped me when it came to research, you know, going into, like, dangerous places as it turned out. You know, where I didn’t care if I was gonna live through it or not.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:10

    And that really kinda does help you get some really good research done in that way. But, you know, I wouldn’t recommend it necessarily.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:17

    Alright. Alright. So Sabrina knows you make this jump. You’re an actor now. You had no experience.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:23

    JBL is nerdier on this. I’m gonna let him take those questions, but I have one big question. Where all the faces come from? I mean, just as a face actor is an expressiveness, I I am a music nerd, but just it just never, e street never really, like, like, and I’ve gone back and listened to other stuff, which it was actually more to my liking after I saw you on the sopranos. But Bruce never really spoke to me.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:44

    So I didn’t know who you were on that show. And I was like, this guy’s the best character actor on the show. You know, it’s a face of sill. Everybody loves sill. Like, where did that come from?
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:53

    I was very conscious of the fact that I did not want people to recognize me and say, wait a minute now. I just him playing Cleveland last week. You know, I was scared to death of that. And and keeping in mind, I thought I was onto a whole new career. And was never going back to music.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:13

    Alright? You know, Bruce decided to put the band back together after we did the first season. So, you know, I’d been out of the band eighteen years at that point. You know, so I wasn’t I wasn’t planning on going back. I went to the gym, we know, and I I gained fifty pounds, you know, muscle and, and I want, I wanted to walk differently, talk differently, and I practice different faces in the mirror You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:36

    You
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:36

    did it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:36

    What would a smile look like? What would a Howard laugh? You know, I wanna do everything different then I could, you know, you know, then my normal self, you know. I wrote a biography of the guy. He’s kind of a romantic you know, romanticized the earlier errors of the mob, you know, when people weren’t ratting each other out.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:57

    So, you know, he has like a fifties kind of look. So I did the the hair that way. And and, I found out where John Gotti got his clothes made. Like, I went to his tailor, and, you know, I really kind of, you know, created the guy from the outside in so I could look in the mirror. I I felt if I could look in the mirror and see the guy, then I could be that guy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:16

    You know? So I I I I wanted to do as as, you know, many different things as I possibly could, so that people did not recognize me. And, and I, and I think it was successful. You know, I never I never got a negative word about my acting, whether it was Sopano’s or Lilyhammer. I mean, it was wonderful.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:36

    You know, it was really nice.
  • Speaker 3
    0:37:38

    There is a sort of, like, gentleman Jockey wins the derby. You know, like, so so, you know, like James Gennolfini spent his whole life and, like, in regional theater and working up to this. And you’re like this rock god. And then you’re like, yeah, I’ll try acting. And you’re fantastic at it right off the bat.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:54

    Well, it it helps to have lived lived a lot of life. You know what I mean? Like, you know?
  • Speaker 3
    0:37:58

    Yeah. It’s
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:59

    different if you’re similar.
  • Speaker 3
    0:37:59

    Also performing is performing. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:01

    Well, yeah. And life and life experience, I think, counts too. You know, you you’re not it’s not like you’re eighteen or twenty one, you know, I’m already an old guy when I start doing that, you know. Yeah. So, you know what I mean?
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:14

    So you you and plus I I spent a lot of my life as a going inside as as an autobiographical songwriter, you know, which also helps, you know, being in touch with who you are So I kinda knew who I was. And, and and to this day, when I see an actor looking exactly like he looks, I am so I am so envious of of that kind of talent because I had to look really different, you know, because I know I know who I am. You know, looking like this. You know, I gotta I gotta look really different in order to be different. You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:50

    So I I I really
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:51

    What about the, the conciglier experience. You know, the Stephen to Bruce and you to James. Like, that that had to transfer at least a little bit.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:01

    The interesting thing about that is, first of all, David wanted to cast me as as Tony Soprano. And I went down and I got cast as Tony Soprano. And then HBO was like, I got your fucking mind. You know? This guy never acted before in his life.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:17

    And where there’s a big big expense we’ve ever had. You know, they were a little, you know, they had a football replay show. HBO was not Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:39:26

    This is their first for for young kids listening to this. This was before HBO became HBO, this is the show that got them into original program.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:33

    Yeah. They were, you know, like football highlights as, you know, and and and old movies, you know. This was a big expense. And they’re like, you’re gonna depend on a guy who never acted before. He said, get the fuck out of here.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:43

    You know? So So David comes back to me, says, that it won’t let me cast you, as a as Tony. What else do you wanna do? You know? And at that point, I said, you know, now that I think about it because it’s been such a a rush.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:59

    I’m kind of feeling guilty about taking an actor’s job, to be honest. You know? And my wife’s a real actor. She went to school and did all the off broadway stuff. I see what they go through.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:09

    I said, you know, I, I, I, you know, I feel a little guilty about taking an actor’s job. I mean, I’m a, you know, half a hippie guitar player off the street, you know, and he says, alright then. I’ll I’ll write you in a part. You’re not gonna take anybody’s job. I’m gonna write a part that doesn’t exist.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:26

    What what do you wanna do? Thought about writing, and and I had a treatment about a, about a hit man named Sylvia Dante. And, You know, he kind of, he had a club and, and, and, and the, all of my families would have their tables and the police commissioner and the mayor and It’s kind of a, you know, a goomba version of Casablanca, you know. And they would hire my independent hitman to do, you know, to settle scores and, you know, and he says, well, that’s, that’s a cool idea, you know, and, he comes back a couple of days later. This is, HBO can’t they they can’t afford it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:03

    So we’ll we’ll make it a strip club. You know? And, and you’ll run the club for the family. And that was about all we all we thought about at that moment. Okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:15

    So now what’s interesting to me, looking back, here’s David Chase, the most detailed oriented guy in the world. And he writes these, like, fifteen interesting characters, all of which could have had spin off shows, okay, and and successful ones, I think. You know, twelve, fifteen characters. But he doesn’t write anybody as the Under boss. Or the consigliere.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:39

    Now, sometimes they’re the same guy, sometimes they’re two different guys, but, you know, but there’s no underboss role, and there’s no consigliere role. And, you know, it’s not discussed at all. You know? And as we as we go on, you know, me and Jimmy got along really well. I think because he was just basically a character actor that was thrust into the spotlight, you know, as a lead guy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:01

    You know, he wasn’t ever comfortable with that And I’m kind of a, you know, and I’m a band guy. I’m a I’m a I’m a I’m a side guy naturally also. You know, I don’t I don’t love the spotlight either. So I think we bonded on that basis. And we got along really well.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:18

    And I think people’s, you know, the writers saw us getting along. And, And then by the end of the first season, just by, you know, filling that vacuum, I became the consulietti, and underboss, without any discussion, you know, without it having actually been written in. And at that point, of course, I I was very comfortable, you know, knowing those dynamics from from my relationship with with Bruce. So I was able to, to really, you know, really inhabit that role very, very well. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:42:52

    Do you ever worry that I mean, Sylvia’s a bad guy. Do you ever worry about the glamorization? People talk about that with with mob stuff. Right? Because the thing about great mob dramas is that you wind up rooting for You’re rooting for Michael Corleone.
  • Speaker 3
    0:43:06

    Right? You’re rooting for Tony.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:08

    Yeah. This is gonna be some of that. You can’t help it, but but, I don’t think we can go any more out of our way to be less glamorous than show. If you
  • Speaker 3
    0:43:15

    Totally agree.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:16

    You know, totally agree. When you look back on it, I mean, the fact is what
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:20

    Paulie’s living with his mom.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:22

    You know, this this ain’t the roaring twenties anymore. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, a lot of these guys are sitting around reiteration form, you know, half, you know, half the day. I mean, And and, and and and and David was very, very, consciously, you know, the the the lighting was almost documentary.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:42

    Okay? There’s no camera moves. There’s really no stars. Lorraine had a, you know, a little bit of from goodfellas, but She was so different in this that, you know, it almost negated it. You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:54

    Yeah. Too many, you know, too many sub plots, too many characters, No stars, no sexy camera moves, no sexy lighting. I had to talk David into putting more songs into the pilot because I was like, Well, you know, let’s give this thing a chance.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:09

    You know? I mean,
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:12

    you know, a bunch of ducks comes into a a a mob boss’s pool And they and they and they take off and he and he has a nervous breakdown. That’s the basis of a hit show. You know? Yeah, let’s talk about that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:26

    It was a good soundtrack to season one. So thank you for that. That was a good ad.
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:30

    Yeah. But it was. Well, he he he he loved the music that’s that’s his favorite thing. It’s putting the music in. But anyway, so I I I don’t I don’t think it could be less glamorous to be honest.
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:40

    Yeah. You know, But you’re gonna get a little bit of that. I I remember it to this day walking on the street after I, you know, killed Adrian, you know, killed, you know, after I shot that poor girl, you know
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:52

    How did Christopher ever forgive you, so
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:54

    People congratulating me. You know, that’s yeah. That you’ve got himself. You know, you got her, you know, that that rat, you know, I’m like, What’s the matter with you? You know, I I I you’re not Well, this is you know?
  • Speaker 3
    0:45:08

    Isn’t this specifically why David Chase end the show with Tony getting whacked by members only? Because he really wanted to underline to people that that this is, like, you know, the Tony, you were rooting for Tony, but Tony’s not a good guy, and Tony doesn’t get to die in his bed.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:24

    He doesn’t get whacked. I mean, it it it it’s left, it’s left up to imagination, but the It’s a good question.
  • Speaker 1
    0:45:29

    He tried he tried to trick you there. That was a good effort.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:32

    The idea being, yeah, you’re gonna be looking over your shoulder your whole life, you know. I think that was implicit They did a big thing in Vanity Fair, like ten years after we went off the air.
  • Speaker 3
    0:45:44

    I remember.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:45

    Yeah. I think I think I ended it. I ended the article when they, you know, Like, what really happened, you know? And I said, I wanna, I’m gonna tell you what happened. Alright.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:54

    But this is just between me and you, and that’s it. Okay. Then I wanna, I wanna get this question ever again. Okay? Alright.
  • Speaker 1
    0:46:00

    Right. Right. Right. Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:00

    Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. Alright.
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:02

    Alright. Here’s what happened. You know what happened? The director yelled cut and the actors went home. That’s what fucking happened.
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:10

    Okay? So, you know, I’m I’m telling you there hadn’t been anything glamorous about it to hold the whole seven seasons, you know. I don’t think. You know?
  • Speaker 3
    0:46:19

    How did Sylvia’s story end? Did you have a because we’d have a right sylvias gets left in the hospital bed. He’s in a home. Did you, in your own mind, have a what happens with him? How are your
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:28

    story? Yeah. I had something in mind. I I got a whole script of of a of a of a of a of a sequel. Are you kidding?
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:35

    Oh, spin off.
  • Speaker 1
    0:46:37

    Alright. So if we can just find a premium cable network to bring back the SARS kiss and part of the deal. Part of the deal is we want the silvio, the dooman, Denalment.
  • Speaker 2
    0:46:48

    Yeah. I I took the, the treatment that I had. We got the idea from, for Sylvia, and I, and I, I finished the screenplay. So it’s a it’s a finished pilot now. But, But yeah, he’s in a coma, so he’s still he’s still alive just in case.
  • Speaker 1
    0:47:01

    We can pitch those two together. Maybe Pluto or somebody. I don’t I don’t know who’s got money, these days. Apple. You know, one of these lesser one of these lesser stream wrote Samsung TV plus on my Samsung, I whenever I turn on, they’ve got Samsung TV plus they’re trying to push on me.
  • Speaker 1
    0:47:18

    So maybe one of them can do the circus and the silvio Koma show. This been so great, Steve. Thank you so much for doing it for taking the time here on Christmas week. I’m gonna get back on that Sopranos I just pulled this up that sopranos soundtrack from that for the first season. That our little RL burnside number, there’s just so much good stuff.
  • Speaker 1
    0:47:39

    So I didn’t know maybe spend my Christmas rewatching some of
  • Speaker 2
    0:47:42

    Dave, David love doing that, honestly. If you asked him, what his favorite part of the show was it’s picking the music, so he loved that stuff. And, And then I got a chance to do it myself on Lilyhammer, you know, I I picked all the music for that. So I
  • Speaker 1
    0:47:54

    need to I need to binge Lilyhammer.
  • Speaker 2
    0:47:57

    Yeah. You know, but a lot of people missed it because it was the first show in Netflix. The very first show.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:01

    Yeah. I need to do it. I need to do it. It’s on my list. Steve men’s aunt.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:05

    Thank you so much. It was a total honor that you would do this. Your book unrequited infatuations, your memoir, people should go get that. You’re back on tour next year? Back on tour starting in March.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:20

    Folks can go check that out. And, I hope to see you in New Orleans sometime. I can I can buy you a cocktail?
  • Speaker 2
    0:48:26

    Definitely.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:26

    Alright. And then, and I guess we’ll see you on set, you know, which whatever streamer out there we get to, to get the Sylvia show.
  • Speaker 2
    0:48:32

    Yeah. I hope so.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:33

    Alright. Thank you so much, my medical assistant.
  • Speaker 2
    0:48:35

    Yeah. And again, I would, and I would recommend your book tutor, everybody. Very, very good.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:39

    I appreciate that. Very good. It really means a lot. Thank you so much.
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