Jonathan Lemire: How Do You Cover an Insurrectionist?

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This investigation revealed that Donald Trump engaged in years of illegal conduct to inflate his net worth. To achieve, to deceive banks, and the people of the great state in New York. Claiming you have money that you do not have does not amount to the art of the deal. It’s the art of the steel. And there cannot be different rules for different people in this country or in this state.

And former presidents are no different. And so today, we are making good on that promise. On our commitment because no one no one is above the law.

Welcome to the Bullwork podcast. I’m early psychs. That was, of course, New York Attorney General Leticia James filing a massive two hundred and twenty page civil lawsuit against the Trump organization, Trump, and his adult children. So joining me to talk about all of this. Jonathan Lemir, White House bureau chief for political and host of MSNBC’s way too early and author of the new book the big lie, election chaos, political opportunism, and the state of American politics after twenty twenty.

Thanks for joining us, Jonathan. My

pleasure, Charlie. Thanks for having me.

So this feels like an evergreen question, surprising, shocking. What is the significance of that civil lawsuit. And of course, we ought to mention the criminal referrals both to SDNY, the feds, and to the IRS. So shocking, surprising, same old. Feel like we’ve been asking this question for six years now.

It’s probably all of the above. I think when we take a step back and recognize is a former president of the United States. This still remains shocking and stunning. It’s unprecedented because it’s Donald Trump and it seems like every day he picks up another legal piece of legal jeopardy that perhaps become same old same old. But this one has been looming for a while.

The attorney general of New York is a civil lawsuit, as you say, but there are criminal referrals, so there could be action down the road. But even in the short term, it could be significant financial penalty. For Trump and Trump organization barred from doing business in the state of New York. The list goes on, and I think it was striking in the sound that you just played from the attorney general, where she said more than once that this proves that no one is above the law. That is very similar rhetoric we’ve been hearing from attorney general Mark Garland of Lake.

Garland doesn’t attach to Trump specifically, but he also makes it clear and has repeatedly in public statements. Of late that no one is above the law and certainly reading tea leaves. We know their Department of Justice has their own investigation into Trump and people are making connections there. But this is as we know, this is long loomed. There’s a real problem for Trump and the Trump organization.

Yeah. Both of Merck Garland and Elizabeth James making the point that no

one is above the law let me just push back for a moment because objectively speaking, until now, Donald Trump has been above the law, hasn’t he? I mean, This is a a major lawsuit he’s facing, all these other criminal investigations, but this is not a surprise to anybody that has covered or written about Donald Trump. A year’s long decades long pattern of commercial fraud of engaging in these various scams It is not breaking news that Donald Trump has been doing this for a very, very long time. And yet, until now, he has never been held accountable. So she talked about the two tier justice system that if you were, I had done this.

If you’d gone out and said, hey, you know, Deutsche Bank, my house is worth a hundred million dollars. Would you like to lend me some money? You’d have a pretty lavish lifestyle for the short period before you got sent to prison, but The reality is that Donald Trump has been above the law until now, hasn’t he?

There’s no question. I mean, it became sort of almost a running joke in Trump world, which I haven’t covered extensively for years, where it always seemed like Trump could get away with it. Whether he was president and he dodged the Mueller probe, you know, he was impeached twice but convicted neither time. He is certainly no stranger to the inside of a courtroom and lawsuits as a a developer and simply celebrity businessman. But to this point, he’s really paid no penalty.

You could argue maybe some of the bankruptcies during his business career, but he bounced back from those. He’s paid no penalty. Until now. And and even now, even with these swirling investigations, he’s still, without question, the Republican front runner, for twenty twenty four. So it remains to be seen whether he’ll pay a penalty now either.

And then to your point, yes, this is not a surprise. I live in New York a long time. The business dealings of the Trump organization sort of an open secret. We know even that Trump was willing to inflate the value of even relatively trivial things, not just size of his penthouse per se, but even how big the building is in which his penthouse sits, where it’s fifty eight stories in one day because another building went up nearby in Midtown. He decided that he wanted to maintain the be the tallest building in the area, and he simply remembered it.

In the fifty eighth floor, suddenly became the sixty eight floor. The fifty seven floor became the sixty seven floor. And so on, the building grew not an inch, but he had inflated its value and its size, claiming it could still be the tallest in the area. This is what he does. Yeah.

This is what he does. This is pretty much his brain. Now, obviously, the most significant parts about this are the potential of a criminal referral a question of whether it makes it harder for him to borrow money, whether this would affect his his liquidity. But you made reference to the fact that he hasn’t paid a political price for all of this. After the raid in Mar a Lago, rather extraordinarily Republican politicians very, very quickly rallied around him.

I mean, they could have maintained strategics silence. Instead, they figured, okay, no. This is our moment where we have to defend the guy. Do you think that the same thing will happen now? Or will Republicans think, you know, I’d rather talk about inflation, I’d rather talk about other things in the border I’m gonna take a pass on this.

Or where are we? What do you what do you think is going to happen? What is their thinking going to be?

Well, certainly, first of all, Trump and his allies have already pushed to no one surprise his adult sons have already criticized us. And Trump is taken to to social his fledgling social media. Yeah. Yeah. As far as Republicans go, you’re right.

It was striking in the immediate aftermath of the of the Marlago search, they condemned it. But as more came out about what was discovered there, and the legal peril that Trump now appears to be in, a lot of those voices have grown quieter. Right now, in the aftermath of the New York Attorney General’s lawsuit. There has been relative silence. There will be some loyalist who will condemn it.

Others will keep their mouth shut. There is a sense that Trump is in a new place right now. Now, that doesn’t mean this is the end of his political career far from it, but we could safely save this, even as much as we cannot predict the future. He has never been and such jeopardy as he is right now. And in many ways, his political standing has probably not been as precarious since, let’s say, the weekend of the Axis Hollywood tape back in twenty sixteen in terms of his hold on the Republican Party or, of course, in those first immediate days after January sixth.

But what happened both of those times — Right. — after access Hollywood, after January sixth, the Republicans came crawling back. So I think we have to assume that pattern will continue here particularly as polls show that though Trump’s standing among Republicans has dipped slightly this summer in the wake of the Mar a Lago raid, only slightly. He’s still by far the biggest voice in the party.

So how does this play into his calculation about running for president? I assume I don’t know whether you you agree with me that that he’s he’s running, that he’s definitely running. Does this make it more likely, less likely that he’s going to run for president again?

I think it’s pretty clear that he is going to barring some sort of health moment or something completely unforeseen. People that I talk to in Trump world say he has every intention to run. There had been some talk you’re you’ll recall, Charlie, that he might even announce this summer as an effort to get out ahead of governor DeSantis and others in the Republican field. That’s cool. There is now a sense he does seem like he has been convinced to wait until after the midterms, which is a relief to most Republicans who don’t wanna be talking about Trump every single day.

But whether it’s come late this year or early twenty twenty three, there is still an expectation that he will declare his candidacy. Now does he, is he fall all the way through to the end of twenty twenty four? That’s a different question perhaps. But I think there is a sense for people in Trump world. That he will run believing that it could, and there’s no evidence to this, but it could hold off some of these prosecutions because he wouldn’t just be a former president at that point.

He’d be current presidential candidate, but also because he does see at least a little bit of insurrection within the party, the DeSantis’ types, and he’s trying to head that off. So what what

happens with him in DeSantis? I mean, there’s been some speculation that with all the attention that DeSantis is getting with his performative cruelty with the migrants that, you know, Donald Trump’s gonna say, hey, you’re taking away my signature issue of new poll out showing DeSantis with a lead. In Florida over Donald Trump. Do you expect that Donald Trump at some point is going to try to decap around DeSantis? What what is the relationship?

What’s the dynamic there right

now? The relationship has really changed. DeSantis has admitted previously that it was an endorsement from Trump that led him to the state house. Got him elected in a very tight race. That has changed.

There’s from Trump, he’s felt like the Santos has grown. I’m grateful. He hasn’t come to kiss the ring. He has also not said, like so many other Republicans, that he would abandon his own White House hopes or Trump to run-in twenty twenty four, seems more and more likely that Santa’s will run whether Trump does or not. There’s real tension there.

The scientist doesn’t really engage on Trump. He did speak out on his behalf. Right after the FBI search, but largely leaves Trump alone. Trump privately stews about DeSantis. In fact, told associates that he was upset, that he believed Santos, quote, stole his idea to send migrants to blue states.

Whether that’s true or not, we’ll never know, but he’s trying to take credit for it. So there is real there is real tension there. Certainly, Trump feels that DeSantis has betrayed him and we know there’s nothing he prizes more than one way loyalty. So yes, I do believe that in the months ahead, where DeSantis continued to aim his ship towards the White House. Trump will come out and come out swinging.

And I know you mentioned that poll that he is ahead in Florida, but there was another poll today nationally among Republicans that Trump led to Santa’s fifty two to nineteen. He’s still to heavyweight.

Yeah, that is pretty decisive. So it’s it’s actually hard to keep track of all of the investigations that are going on right now. And of course, we don’t necessarily have transparency about all the grand jury investigations. But clearly, Trump is facing multi front challenges Civil lawsuits investigation in Georgia, the Marl Lago investigation, the ongoing January sixth investigation, in Trump World, What is causing the most agita? What are they most worried about?

What is Donald Trump? In the middle of the night, most concerned about of all of these investigations? It

changes. But right now, it would be the DOJ probe into the twenty twenty election fraud, and and what happened on January sixth. That has always sort of been the toughest one. They know that Fauci Willis, the DAN in Fulton County, Georgia, has been proceeding and seems that, you know, aggressively trying to get witness testimony governor Kemp in particular is gonna it down likely after the election. But more than even one in particular, Charlie, we actually have a new story out in the last few days about how it’s the sheer volume investigation.

Has finally started to wear down Trump and Trump world — Mhmm. — that for so long that there was a sense that he would get away with it, that he was Teflon. Then it became sort of almost running jokes in his inner circle like about how’s he gonna get away with this one? Because he always would. There’s a sense now that might be changing.

There’s just so much. So many investigations. So many different fronts. So many people in Trump world who have been say, you know, they called before a grand jury or had their phones seized or issued subpoenas. And it’s been noteworthy.

Concogs and I have been writing about how Trump world has gone, largely dark. The inner circle around Trump has really shrunk. It’s just a handful of people and his adult sons. And the sort of secondary levels of Trump World. Those text chains that light up nightly about the latest happening, a lot of them have gone quiet.

There’s a there’s a wonder and a fear who might be cooperating? Who might not

be? See, that’s the interesting question because, obviously, you know, others have compared, you know, Trump’s inner circle sort of, you know, the the mafia don and that sort of that, you know, hyper loyalty. And the Trump organization has always been a very small during insular organization. You know, members of the family, you know, lifelong loyalists. So it’s interesting that this investigation, these these lawsuits that was filed on Wednesday, really grew out of the testimony of Michael Cohen who at one time was was one of his consigliere’s, one of his loyalist.

I mean, I I remember being on one of the MSNBC shows, maybe I was on a panel with you, and somebody was talking about Michael Cohen possibly flipping. And I have to confess, I rolled my eyes. I thought that’s never gonna happen. But here you have one of the loyalists of the loyals who has flipped, who’s ratted out, ratted out the boss. And there has to be this anxiety that this is going to perhaps happen in some of these other investigations with people in the White House.

I mean, there’s gotta rattle them a little bit that that so much of the testimony to the January sixth committee and to the grand jury’s is coming from people who were inside the room, people who you’d never would think would testify against Donald. Trump. So that’s gotta be creating a certain level of anxiety because that’s a break from the

pattern that Donald Trump has created and that he’s relied upon. Right? Trump, of course famously, would not show loyalty to anyone else, but demanded it from others in his inner circle. And we have seen a change here. No one else expects the members of his family will flip on him.

But someone like Michael Cohen, you’re right, was almost family. He was he was in the inner circle for such a long time. And I think if we shift the gear to the White House, a lot of eyes are trained on, Ark Meadows, the Chief of Staff, who, you know, has become in many ways, in the crosshairs of the January sixth committee, we know he’s been had a criminal contemporary to congress and DOJ that that is he’s someone who might. I mean, this is how these investigations work. They keep moving up the food chain, looking for bigger fish.

There’s none bigger than Donald Trump, and there aren’t many levels of fish between where they are now and where he is.

So I know it’s a cliche at this point to talk about the al capone and how the Fed’s got al capone on the tax issues. And and so clearly, the flipping Michael Cohen was crucial, but it does seem like this Leticia James lawsuit has a lot of documentation as well. Even a lot of this stuff is in black and white. You know, you see the valuations, you see the fact that, you know, Trump overvalued certain property when it was to his benefit, and then would undervalue the exact same property when he thought that was to his benefit. And they have the emails, they have the communications.

So I guess, if I’m Donald Trump, I have to worry about the IRS having a black and white case, documented case against me. I mean, I know that there are a lot of people out there that want him to be charged with seditious conspiracy or violation of the espionage act. But in Donald Trump’s world, to be charged and convicted with a felony for tax fraud. I mean, that has the same effect, doesn’t it?

It certainly does. And it’s the case that Americans can understand it’s a case that a lot of people who are arrested and convicted and sentenced for, you know, the espionage act, as you say, sedition, these are big lofty political terms perhaps, but this is something a lot of Americans get. And I think that we have had a lot of conversations about whether attorney general Mary Garland would sign off on some sort of charge, some sort of indictment stems from the trivago search. But even though there’s no question that he should not have had those documents, there are questions about whether a past president really should be arrested for that. This is a little different, and it’s something that people understand, and obviously, it predates his presidency.

It’s something that’s been going on for decades.

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speaking of

that investigation, you know, Trump has been a master at and dragging out litigation, you know, coming up with roadblocks, trying to slow everything down. And it seemed like he was having some success by getting a special master appointed I think it’s fair to say at this point, Jonathan, the special master thing is not working out that well for him. So I don’t know. I I couldn’t help speculate that there may have been some catch up on the wall down in Mira Lago when he saw the way that judge Deere was holding his lawyer’s feet to the fire. I mean, that’s not that this is not playing out the way that Donald Trump and

his lawyers were hoping it would. It seems not. Not in this early stage anyway. Let’s recall, of course, that it was Trump’s team that suggested Judge Deary. That he was their idea, and the DOJ signed off on it.

But what we heard from him this week is that the period he’s a no nonsense. His judge referred to as by number of people as a judge’s judge, strictly by the book. And he also made it clear he wants to move quickly that he in fact is willing to accept a more accelerated timetable than what the DOJ recommended. And that is a problem for the Trump world because you are right. Their strategy in every matter before his time in the White House, as president and since then, anytime he gets in legal trouble, delay.

It’s delay. It’s delay. It’s stall. It’s it’s throw things up against the wall to slow things

down. And at least so far, if this judge isn’t having. And Trump has been ratcheting up. He has not so subtle of threats of violence that the American people would not stand for any sort of indictment and he’s got allies out there saying there would be chaos, there would be anarchy. Clearly, a threat to the Department of Justice and attempt to intimidate them.

I don’t know what what your reaction was to Mary Garland’s speech over the weekend. He went to Ellis Island and gave what I thought was a pretty direct response to, you know, the the the question, is Merrick Garland going to blink? Is Merrick Garland going to think that it’s not worth it? He said, you know, very directly. You know, that they the rule of law was fragile.

Like, you know, it’s our duty to uphold it, and we have to do what’s right, even if it’s risky. Did you see it the same way? Because I I I think that Garland seemed to me to really be pushing back and answering that question about whether he

was going to be intimidated by these threats from the former president. I saw it through the same lens, and it says he’s made this. He he did it so powerfully over the weekend, but he’s made this argument a few times recently. It’s It’s almost hard to forget that for better part of a year, democrats were very angry at Merrick Garland. In fact, some very important democrats who who work in the White House were very angry at Mark Garland because they felt like he was moving too slowly.

He was dragging his feet. That is no longer the case. And as someone close to the situation, put to me a few weeks ago, as we do have that that that debate, the existential debate. Bull, Garland, would he ever pull the trigger for an indictment? This person said to me with knowledge of this said, well, the moment he signed off on that raid and all that it could bring.

That’s your clue. I mean, he’ll follow the facts. He’ll follow the law. Doesn’t mean an indictment’s coming. But the door to indictment opened that day.

He expressed a willingness that he would do it. If warranted, the moment he signed off on that raid. If he wasn’t gonna go down that path, probably would have taken a different route, but he’s there. And we may get there an unprecedented place as a country in the months ahead. So you

have for a blast from your past, Jonathan? I hope it’s not too embarrassing. No. No. No.

It is not. It’s this famous infamous press conference Helsinki in two thousand eighteen when Donald Trump is having that joint pressure with Vladimir Putin. And of course, I mean, that’s obviously what we’re talking about this today with, you know, Putin. You know, threatening this vast escalation of the war in Ukraine. Trump suggesting that this would never have happened if I would have been president.

But for people who forget, and I’m sure that Jonathan, you have not forgotten, you were the guy who asked Trump at that press conference who do you believe? The who do you believe question about Russian interference? This is how it went. Just now

president Putin denied having anything to do with the election interference in twenty sixteen. Every US intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did What who my first question for you, sir, is who do you believe? My second question is, would you now with the whole world watching tell president Putin, would you denounce what happened in twenty sixteen, and would you warn him to never do it again?

And of course, We know what the president said at that point rather remarkably, siding with president Putin over his country’s intelligence agencies. So given your thinking looking back on that relationship between Donald Trump and and Vladimir Putin particularly now that Vladimir Putin is one of the world’s great pariahs and is aggressively testing the will of the west in Ukraine.

Well, first of all, note that’s more than four years ago. And those two guys have certainly managed to stay in the headlines. Haven’t they? But, no, I mean, the the relationship between Trump and Putin have obviously, it was a great mystery during the campaign, what in twenty sixteen, what ties might Trump have to Russia? What was Russia trying to do on his behalf to try to help him?

And certainly, in that moment, the question needed to be put to Donald Trump right there standing just a few feet from Putin, who he believes. And of course, he sided with Moscow but it is striking to this day, Trump still seems remarkably deferential to Putin. He did throw so throughout his time in office. Even at in moments, his administration could be tough on Russia. He himself never was.

Always gave Putin the way out. Always seemed to couch out to him at International Summit. Helsinki most of all, but others as well, and even leaving office. It reflexively praising everything that Putin did. Remembering even the early days of the war when Russia launched his invasion of Ukraine, Trump was still very complementary of Putin.

He’s never truly condemned what he did. He has modified his you know, stand somewhat and saying, well, there shouldn’t be a war, but he’s never really denounced what Putin has done. And now his newest is that this would never happen because I’d be president. But it’s unclear with that because he’d be projecting strength or because he would cut some sort of deal with Putin. That’s the unanswerable question.

And of course,

we’re being reminded again how critical and skeptical Donald Trump was of NATO membership. All of the speculation that he was gonna back off from Article five, you know, the you know, an attack on one is an attack on all that he might even withdraw the United States from NATO. We’re getting more reporting reminding us about that. So if you’re a Vladimir, I know it’s this is the old getting inside of his head. If you’re Vladimir Putin though and you’re looking at American politics, you know, yes, right now Putin is is backed into a corner.

There’s a certain desperation about it. But he’s got to be thinking at some point if he waits this out, a Trump presidency would completely change the balance of power, including the the strength in the resolve and the reliability of the Western alliance. Kind of be part of his thinking, don’t you think? Or is that too

speculative? No, I think it’s clear that it it already has been part of his thinking that he decided to launch the invasion in part because he thought the west in the US were too divided to really respond. He that we know from intelligence that he saw what happened on January sixth saw the United States as a divided broken country in his estimation, didn’t think they could rally behind a common cause. He also saw the aftermath of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan last summer that the US would not have an appetite to support another defense, another armed conflict. And I was there in Brussels when Donald Trump threatened to walk out of NATO, came very close.

So I think Putin is thinking that he patients is the time is in some ways on his side. In many ways, this war has it’s been a failure for Russia and an unqualified failure for Russia to Putin. You know, barring some sea change at home, he’s not gonna face voters. He’s not gonna face mass demonstrations. He has the ability to wait this out.

For either Europe’s alliance, such a chatter because, you know, of of rising fuel costs because they’re facing a cold and dark winter. Or because he can wait out the American presidency. And if a Trump himself or a Trump light character were to be elected in twenty twenty four, that would completely alter the course of the war. Okay. Let’s change

gears a little bit to talk about our political environment where we’re at in the midterms looking ahead to twenty twenty four. And your new book, the Big Lai election chaos political opportunism in the state of American politics after twenty twenty. You you remind us that, you know, this didn’t begin after the twenty twenty election, the the big lie. And as you point out, all of his lies begin small. So where do you trace the beginning of the I can’t possibly lose?

It’s been stolen from me. I’ve been cheated. Where did it begin? It

began at a rather unremarkable rally in August of twenty sixteen in Columbus, Ohio where for the first time as the book notes, Donald Trump suggested that the upcoming general election would not be conducted fairly in August twenty sixteen. August twenty sixteen, four and a half years before the riot at the US capital on January sixth. And he proceeded to reiterate that in a general election debate with against Hillary Clinton a few weeks later, and then even after he won that election, he claimed with no evidence there must have been widespread voter fraud because how else could he have lost the popular vote? And what it does though is that it’s not just that lie. It is all the lies.

How he used them to hijack the Republican Party and much of the conservative media to go along with him to amplify his lies. To his supporters would believe only him. And he laid the groundwork for what would become of course his biggest lie of all that of the twenty twenty election, and the book traces that in slow and incremental steps at times how he got the republican party to go along with them. Okay.

So to your credit, you were reported for the associated press at the time, and your lead back from August twenty six teen was Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump suggested Monday that he fears the general election is going to be rigged an unprecedented assertion by a modern presidential candidate. So in retrospect and even in the time, you always knew that Donald Trump would never graciously concede defeat. That that’s also not his brand all. The Donald Trump cannot be defeated, he can only be betrayed, he can only be ripped off. So I guess this still remains the question because a lot of the porting that we’re getting and the information we’re getting at the January sixth committee is that in his inner circle after twenty twenty, most people, even people who were big supporters of Donald Trump recognize that no, he did not win the election.

There was that sense, there was that Washington post quote from somebody said, you know, what’s the harm of humoring him for a while because eventually he’ll get over it and go away. So

talked

to me about I guess, it’s not a surprise to me that Donald Trump refuses to acknowledge it. It’s not a surprise to me that Donald Trump lies. This is what he does. The real mystery is why so many other Republicans went along with it. Right.

I mean, when Bill Barr stands up and goes, this is bullshit. There’s nothing there. You know, who who more credible within Margo world to say that and yet that, you know, here we are. How did that happen?

Well, yes, you are right. That outside of perhaps a handful of true believers, the true conspiracy theorists, maybe some of them do think, do somehow. Think that the election was stolen. Very few in Trump World do, but they went along with it. Out of fear and out of an attempt to cling to power.

Cleaning to power if they if somehow things could change and Trump were to remain president, that, of course, would be beneficial to them. They knew that was unlikely. But they didn’t want to risk his wrath. They knew that even if he were to be defeated in twenty twenty and eventually leave the stage, he would remain the most powerful figure in a public party and he ruled by fear. He still had his Twitter account at the time.

We know that was the most potent political weapon of the last seven eight years to be sure. Mitch McConnell’s a great example. Right? Where he wanted to humor Trump because he thought if he did so, Trump would actively help in his effort to maintain being majority leader because of the two Georgia senate runoff races. Now it turned out that completely backfired on McConnell that when Trump could only be convinced to do one rally in Georgia and when he did he spent the whole time hearing grievances and telling Georgia voters, hey, my election was rigged.

This one’s gonna be two. So therefore, they didn’t bother showing up to vote. And both republican candidates lost, and McConnell became minority leader rather than majority. So there was a lot of personal interest, self preservation people looking out for themselves, and they’ve used Trump as a vassal for years now to get what they wanted. Their own power or to conservatives on the judiciary, tax cut, whatever it might be.

And they saw that even those last few months between November and January twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, they still operated under that belief. And frankly, still are to this day. Where so few Republicans are willing to condemn him because they see the power that he has over Republican voters that they still need if they wanna stay in office. Okay. In your

book, you also deal with the most tangled, difficult issue, the question of, is Donald Trump himself? Is he knowingly lying? Or is he talking himself into the lies. You’ve interviewed him dozens of times. So there seems to be this open question does he know that he lost or has he convinced himself that he didn’t lose?

I mean, what what is your take? There

are

moments when talking to him about other matters where it does really feel like he has convinced himself of a new truth, the power of repetition. That’s how he gets his audience to go along with him. Why he’s such a good brainer. He just says something or he gives a nickname or whatever it is, and he goes over and over and over and over. In terms of this lie, we know and I have reported in the book that in the immediate aftermath of the election day, he would tell aids and wonder aloud How could I have lost to Joe Biden who he had deemed the worst presidential candidate in history?

Though it seemed there, there was a space where he was willing to accept or at least acknowledge, if not accept, that he had lost. But that changed. And I think it’s important to note one other thing. His surroundings in the days after the election. So many of the grown ups, the guardrails had already left at that point.

Others did so immediately after the election. There was also a COVID outbreak in the West Wing stemming from a crowded White House indoor election night party. The West Wing was empty for weeks. And the guardrails were gone, and the only people that left filling that vacuum where the Rubiliani is and Sydney Powell’s and Michael Flynn’s of the world telling him what he wanted to hear. No sir, you didn’t lose.

No

sir, we had this conspiracy. Whatever it might be, and that’s when Trump changed his tone as well. So he began to repeat their theories and people around him say that it seemed like he started to believe them. Yeah. He talked himself into it.

Yeah. So this was the environment we’ve had some, you know, the compelling testimony of what it was like for some of the grown ups to realize. There were these meetings taking place in the White House with people that in a rational political universe would never be allowed within several blocks of the White House. And so you look back on this and go, Sydney Powell, Rudy Giuliani, and Michael Flynn, you know, whatever the continuum of of drift crazy there is there, these were the people that were there in that vacuum, while other Republicans were getting him space to recover.

Right? That’s exactly what happened. And they filled his head. And now whether he in his heart of hearts, only he knows what he actually believes, but certainly were looking at his behavior, and his behavior changed. And those who talked to him around then noticed a shift were in those first couple days after election, he was willing angry, but willing to acknowledge he had been defeated, and then that went away.

And we know that they explored every possible option. To try to overturn the election results. And and that is that is what a fraud is. Right? If you know something is one and you try to perpetuate the other, that’s what prosecutors are looking at here in twenty twenty election as as well.

And he is still to this day nearly two years later contesting the twenty twenty was rigged against him. And most dangerously, as a final note, so are so many other Republicans, including those who are on the ballot this year, who if they were to win, would have incredible control over our elections going forward. Yes.

And that that’s obviously we’re gonna, you know, continue to to be talking about that. And I look, there are some people that, you know, when you asked you really believe it or are you going along with it? I mean, there are some people like, you know, Doug Mastriano and Cary Lake, well, you know, who knows? You don’t even wanna go into that that tangled thicket of of their own mind. It does strike me though watching this play out how much the the claims of election fraud are just pretexts because It doesn’t seem to require actual verifiable facts to keep this alive.

I mean, there’s the big lie out there, but what is the big lie? And you keep asking, well, give me some details. Give me an example of fraud. And, you know, examples are raised and then they are refuted. They are debunked.

It doesn’t seem to make any difference. So I wonder, you know, is the big lie about the actual belief in fraud? Or is it just a pretext for saying, we just simply cannot tolerate letting the other people get into power. We are simply not going to ever seed power.

I think it has There’s been a metamorphosis. And I do think you’ve hit on something there that for some, probably there’s still a conviction as misguided as it was that something was wrong in twenty twenty. But I think for others, it has become it’s become an excuse. It’s become a reason to act in in a way in which you cannot ever acknowledge a defeat or the other side has scored a victory, that something is always right now, that something is always spiracy against your side. And it is deeply worrisome for the future of our democracy.

The peaceful transfer of power is probably the most sacred thing the American democracy has, and it is in grave danger going forward. And There’s certainly if Donald Trump were on a ballot again, whether it’s in a Republican primary or in a twenty twenty four general election, certainly no one thinks he’d ever conceded defeat. So talk to me about the way the media has handled Donald Trump going back into the beginning because it struck

me starting in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen that in in many ways, Donald Trump sort of broke the model of journalism. I guess he just lied so much. And it seemed like the media was having a very, very difficult time sort of catching up with how do we handle somebody like this? And you, of course, remember when the cable networks thought that it was be a smart idea to run off of his alley’s just unedited, just air them, which now look I I don’t know with your grip. Seems like one of the, you know, his cases of historic media malpractice.

So talking about your evaluation of the media coverage of Trump and what it was like for you as a reporter who spent the last six years covering Donald Trump. What are the challenges? Yeah. The media made a lot of mistakes and and and we’ve learned from them

that we we can get into it. At first, you’re right. There was a sense that we didn’t know what to do with him. We’ve never encountered someone like Trump before. You mentioned running rallies unedited there was at least one time when a cable network simply ran a live shot of his empty podium waiting for his rally to start.

You

know, and other and other Republicans in that primary field vehemently complaints that it was unfair how much more media attention that Trump got, but Trump was good for ratings. And that was that was a problem. And we also know that, like, other media outlets, newspapers, the AP where I worked, you know, we had to change how we covered up to no longer. Could you just kind of quote him verbatim. Like, we had to learn how to redouble our fact checking efforts because he would lie so much.

You no longer can even just in a tweet you know, say, like, a snippet of a quote because it would be so out of context and it would seem completely wrong and that we wouldn’t have the other side attached to it. So we all had to adjust. I do think we got better. By the end of twenty twenty, networks were not carrying Trump routes. His life.

Or if they did, there was real time fact checking either the accurate cut in or there’d be something on the Kyron at the bottom of the screen there. You know, certainly after the election when it was just election lie after election lie after election lie, no one took Donald Trump live. A remarkable statement about a president of the United States. Now, I know the meeting is not perfect. We improved, but we’re here to run again.

We’re gonna be presenting a whole another host of challenges because none of those lies gonna still exist. We have to ask ourselves How do we cover an insurrectionist candidate? Yeah. How do we cover someone who defied the basic

tenets of of democracy? And that’s gonna be a test for all of us. I think it’s a very, very difficult test because the as as we’ve seen, that when the media would say, this is a liar, this is not true, then that becomes then that is spun by Trump World. This angle is an example of your bias. And, you know, they you know, he has succeeded rather dramatically in discrediting and delegitimizing much of the fact based media for much of his base.

I mean, to an extent, this, you know, obviously, was a preexisting condition. But, you know, the fact that he flipped the whole concept of fake news around on any news that was embarrassing to him. And so he effectively insulated himself against a lot of that coverage. That’s

exactly right that he fake news no longer became a story that he could claim rightly or wrongly. There was something wrong with it. But rather the story he didn’t like, if it was critical, he conditioned his supporters to not believe the media. And already look, the transapolarization existed before Trump, but he dramatically accelerated them where It’s team red, team blue, it’s us versus them. There’s very little common ground.

We can’t even agree on the same set of facts. And that’s a dangerous place for democracy. Trump has used that to his advantage where he has conditioned his supporters to believe him and only him. And of course, the irony here is that Donald Trump actually desperately courts media attention and approval. And certainly, I know I’ve been the recipient of many a note from Donald Trump or his inner circle trying to sway my coverage or convince me that he was right about something he had said or to criticize something I said on television.

At the same time, he deemed us the enemy of the people, the enemy of the state. And while Aubrey President complains about their media coverage, no one has put the media at the center of his entire existence like Donald Trump. But

I think that’s what’s interesting is, you know, one side of his mouth he’s referring to you as the enemy of the people, but then he’s sending notes through Kelly McEnany about complaining about something you said on morning Joe or that you wrote for the AP. And of course, you know, again, sending a signal that there’s the president of the United States watching Morning Joe and and reacting to it. Now, you you actually were the target of some of this criticism and you, like many other reporters, you you receive threats as a result of this. Tell me about that. Yeah,

I did. Trump is called being a sleazebag once. He’s thrown me out of a number of his events because of questions. He did not like that I had asked, obviously, after Helsinki, I received a lot of attention for what happened there. And yes, like so many members of the media those who’ve had high profile positions and high profile exchanges with him.

I mean, threats became very commonplace. One in particular escalated to the point where the FBI had to get involved. I’m not alone in that. A lot of our colleagues have had to experience that as well. It’s scary stuff.

And I think that, you know, especially now in the wake of January sixth, in the wake of law enforcement warnings about how violence has entered the political discourse like it perhaps never has before. That’s something we’re all thinking about going forward. What do you make

of his implicit slash explicit embrace of QAnon over the weekend? I mean, this as a president who’s played Footsie with with some of these militia groups as, you know, wink wink at some of the conspiracy theorists and people like, you know, the Mike Pillow Guy and Mike Flynn, but it did seem like he he crossed crossed several lines over the weekend, really associating himself with one of the most stream and dangerous conspiracy. There’s where is that going, John? Well,

I remember I was flashing back on this. It was It was also Ohio. It was a it was a midterm election rally. I wanna say that summer August of twenty eighteen. And that was when the QAnon movement was really starting to take off.

And that that rally in particular, a lot of people showed up wearing two it’s a signia on their shirts or holding up signs. And the Trump campaign made them go away. Like, they were like, we don’t want anything to do with this. We don’t know what it is. Like, you can’t you the the you know, the White House staffers, like, no, you can’t do this.

It goes to show you how far things have changed. It’s reminiscent, frankly, of how Trump has dealt with some of the far right, like, supremacist groups, the Proud Boys, the oath keepers, where he has never fully condemned them. For a while, he seemed to keep them at arm’s length even though he wouldn’t totally denounce them. We remember, of course, the Proud Boys. He told him to stand back and stand by at that debate, and now we know the Proud Boys.

We’re dealing with some of his associates, including Roger Stone, in the hours before the January sixth, right, in which they participated. It feels like a similar evolution here with Q and A where, first, he kept them in arm distance, though he never condemned them. He was pressed by Savannah Guthrie late the twenty twenty campaign about QAnon. He again claimed he didn’t know what they were, but then said, well, if they support me. They can’t be all bad.

And here we are seemingly off all out in grace at that rally. Very strange and disturbing rally over the weekend.

Okay. I may have missed it, but is there been any pushback at at all from fellow Republicans, including the good Republicans, the normal Republicans against his implicit threat against the Department of Justice or his embrace of Q1 on? Because all I’m hearing is crickets. No. I’m missing something?

It’s been

crickets. Certainly nothing on the Q1 on. Part of it, perhaps the calculation being made by Republicans. Hey, Qnon voters vote for me too. And we did hear we have heard the occasional pushback when he has been critical of the FBI and of DOJ.

Particularly, there were a few Republicans who did to their credit. Mitt Romney, even my Pence, in the immediate aftermath of the Mar a Lago search when there were so many threats against FBI agents, there were some republicans who said, hey, knock this off. We can’t be doing this. But on terms of this latest flotation with QAnon, I haven’t heard any. Jonathan Lemir, thank you so

much for coming on the podcast today. I appreciate it very much. My pleasure would love to come back someday. Jonathan is the White House Bureau Chief for Political host of MSNBC’s way too early author of the new book, The Big Lion election chaos political opportunism and the state of American politics after twenty twenty. If you get it very, very early, you can see him on MSNBC tomorrow morning.

And thank

you all for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast. I’m Shirley Sipes. We’ll be back tomorrow, and we’ll do this all

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