James Wigderson: From Paul Ryan to Paranoia

Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. What is this day two of the post Marlago raid meltdown? We have a lot of coverage about that in the Bulwark. But I think that today we are going to devote to a perhaps somewhat wonky insider, inside too much inside baseball analysis of my home state of Wisconsin.

What happened here last night? The sort of head snapping face turned of the Republican Party towards MAGA or maybe not over the last six years and joining me. On today’s podcast to do all of this is a guy who has been watching Wisconsin politics for a very long time. I should ask you, James, how long it’s been? James Wiggerson, who took over for me as the editor of Wrightwood Wisconsin.

And now is the editor of his own new newsletter, which you are to subscribe to call life under construction. James Wiggerson from live from crucial Waukesha County, Wisconsin. Thanks for joining me this morning. Appreciate it. Oh,

thanks for having me on Charlie. So I sat down this morning trying to figure

out what to say about last night’s primary in Wisconsin because, you know, once again, we have another Trump backed candidate for governor that wins and, you know, that fits into all these national narratives. But you know, what struck me was how it illustrates how dramatically the Republican Party has changed in just six years because you and I both remember back in the midst of time, April of two thousand sixteen, where Wisconsin Republicans they did not buy what Donald Trump was selling. This was one of his worst and most embarrassing defeats. Wisconsin Republicans were about his anti Trump as any party in the country. And then last night, what happens?

The Trump endorsed candidate for governor wins? Trump endorsed skewer sort of batshit crazy fringe candidate comes with an inches of ousting the sitting assembly speaker. So This has been a transformation, and I was talking to another Republican this morning who was you know, shaking shaking his head about this. And and he said, you know, last night that everybody was texting one another. Like, where did all the same people go?

And of course, as you know, what I said was welcome to my world. If only you people had been warned by So let’s just talk about this. I mean, it’s I you know, Tim Michaels is the nominee, beat a Rebecca Clayfish. And Rebecca Clayfish, I mean, she was very, very well known, worked very, very hard, had the backing of the full establishment, and Michael’s beat her easily. So what happened, James?

What happened?

Yeah.

So what happened is is is that we are now seeing the transformation of the Republican Party in Wisconsin from the days of Paul Ryan to complete paranoia. Yeah. And we’re seeing that Tim Michaels, every time that the question came up, just pressed further and further into mega territory. He went from saying, you know, maybe he’ll support Trump to definitely, he’s gonna or Trump in twenty twenty four and anything he could do to hang on to that Trump endorsement because that was what was important. And as a result, he managed to cut into Rebecca Claifish’s votes in the in the areas surrounding Milwaukee County the Republican rich Wow counties, Waukesha, Zaki, and Washington County, and managed to keep her totals low there.

Even winning Washington County, and then managed to just beat her out state where That’s where the beat her. Yeah. That’s where the Trump vote is. And that and managed to just crusher it out there, and it’s the transformation of the Republican Party that we’re seeing. So

it it it wrote in my newsletter this morning. I mean, really there’s you know, there were no substantive philosophical differences between the candidates. I mean, they both ran pretty hard to the right. Clayfish did her best degree favor with the maga with the maga base, but Michaels was willing to pander hard or he was willing to embrace the election lies with more enthusiasm. That was all he needed.

I mean, Look, I Rebecca Klafish has some vulnerabilities as a candidate. There’s just no question about it. I’m not saying that she was, you know, that she was going to cruise to this nomination, but Tim Michaels, you know, was

and

I described him as an out of state, not ready for prime time, somewhat dim, last minute entrance. Who has been politically absent from this state for a decade and a half since he lost a really lackluster senate race back in two thousand four, and he spent a lot of the campaign dodging the media, skipping debates, and then sweating profusely when he showed up. He was not an impressive candidate, but he had the one thing that matters now. Doesn’t I mean, it this that is the only factor really to separated him from Rebecca Claifish to made him plausible. Is that Donald Trump said he’s our guy?

And he had some money.

Well, I mean, it was a campaign that was largely devoid of any sort of issues, really. I mean, you you say that there wasn’t much difference between them. You couldn’t tell what their actual positions were because all of us is which one would be more loyal to Trump in in two years? And which one was willing to discuss the the election two years ago, which one was willing to overturn the twenty twenty election. And how much are they committed to fighting mode fraud that they think that stole the election.

And Michael’s was willing to go that extra step. And and it’s really a shame to see because this was the the state that had generated Paul Ryan and Scott Walker and Acton and Paul Ryan know. Talking about entitlement reform, we were a state that was generating ideas for the Republican party And now we’re just generating heat without any light. No substance.

It really was a substance free campaign. Again, I I know we’re gonna get kind of insider baseball here, but one of Michael’s appeals was that he well, he was an outsider and he was taking any obvious money and he was independent and all of this stuff. First of all, his campaign was run by three of the swampiest guys in Wisconsin. Right now. You know, the the people who have been bankrolled by the road builder lobby who’ve been pushing for, you know, all all of this Tim Michaels is from a road building family.

Rein’s previous, obviously, was playing a key role here for whatever reason because he thinks that he’ll have a pipeline so that his law firm will be able to get contracts. Have a former congressman named John Garde, who works closely with the road builders, etcetera, supporting him. Bill McCoshen, again, a big time lobbyist. And yet, you listen to people around the state going. The other guy is, well, he’s he’s like Trump.

He has no ties. He is completely independent. He’s going to drain the swamp. He’s actually one of the most ridiculously swampy figures I’ve seen in some time. And and yet he wins he wins easily.

So again, the the the rules of politics have changed. So one of the things for people who are still with us on this insider stuff Scott Walker, at least it looked like to me, was going all in for his former lieutenant governor, Rebecca Clayfish. And until twenty eighteen, Scott Walker was the dominant Republican in the state of Wisconsin. We’re now four years later, and it’s like, that faded pretty quickly, didn’t

it? Right. The Republican Party has left Scott Walker behind. He’s now in the ashbin of history. I mean, what was interesting to me was how much of the campaign Skywalker spent while he was campaigning for Rebecca reopening old wounds from the twenty eighteen campaign in refiling some of those battles rather than talking about what Rebecca would do if she were elected governor.

Yeah. And he it was to me, amazing to watch a former governor actually go on the offensive and make negative attacks on Tim Michaels during the campaign just to settle some old scores. I think if the clayfish campaign and and Scott Walker had focused more on a positive agenda and talked about things other than the last two elections, they probably would have had a better chance of winning over some — Really? — voters. Okay.

May maybe you’re right. I mean, in in in a better world, I would like to think that that’s that’s right. But you look at this result and you go, it it all just came down to who was willing to kiss Donald Trump’s ring harder, and that’s what Wisconsin voters wanted. I mean, right? I mean, that that’s there was really nothing else here.

It was it was just she could have come up with all sorts of positive agendas and white papers and, you know, put together her, you know, shadow cabinet and everything. It wouldn’t have made any difference because, you know, they weren’t God king came in here and he says, I want Michaels. Well, we’ll never know because she didn’t try. Yeah. I mean, I’m always more

optimistic than Charlie had these things. But she didn’t even try. She just, again, was trying to you know, I was the lieutenant governor and you should vote for me and was re litigating the past rather than talking about the future. Right? Right.

And we’ll we’ll just never know. I mean, to look but like you said about Tim Michaels, I mean, people tried to sell them to me as he was a candidate that could be Tony Evers, the current governor. He is gonna be a winner. And I’m they’re looking at him going, he’s lost two elections already in Wisconsin. He lost a race for state senate.

He was the last one of the primary, and he lost the race for US senate. And he

ran a terrible campaign. He ran against Russ Feingold and just face planted. It was completely forgettable if if he wasn’t running for office

now, you wouldn’t even remember that he ran that. So

this is just a reminder of how fleeting fame can be and how ephemeral political clout can be because it it it feels like very recently, again, that, you know, Paul Ryan was was the was the rock star future of the party. Now he is, you know, completely not a factor in Wisconsin politics, Scott Walker. Governor up until four years ago. Now, obviously, it does not have the ability to, you know, push a candidate across the line. And I guess that also makes you striking about Tim Michaels because I don’t know you you watch politics very very closely.

I was trying to think whether I’d ever heard of Tim Michaels from two thousand and four until twenty twenty two. I mean, he he moved to Connecticut built himself a multimillion dollar mansion. But I don’t remember him playing any role in any of our politics for the last decade. And hey, he was he was he was absent. He was invisible.

Right? I mean, you know, and then he he parachutes back in and, normally, if you’ve been gone that long, nobody remembers you. Accept again in a Trumpified party if if Trump blesses you that that’s that’s enough. I was

listening to a rights previous being interviewed this morning on on a local talk show. And Ryan’s previous was trying to sell the idea that Tim Michaels has always been active behind the scenes and used it. On the he was on president Trump’s infrastructure committee and things like that. I

wouldn’t recognize that.

Yeah. I’m just kinda

drew up the plans for infrastructure week. Yeah. Yeah. So Ryan’s previous. I mean, all of the guys who have been sort of wiped away Reince Priestole is the guy that has found a way to monetize the Grift here in Wisconsin.

And and I don’t know. I mean, he used to be kind of close with Scott Walker, but he’s now decided what he’s gonna go. He’s he’s all Trump all the time now and he’s going to recruit candidates in in states like Wisconsin. I mean, what’s what is What’s what’s Ryan’s deal do you think here? I

mean, I’m looking at it from the outside when it comes to Ryan’s previous, but having last touch with him once he winfold Trump.

But I

would I would say that just from observing his behavior I mean, this was a guy that was a couple years ago was being talked about as a possible candidate for governor himself. And instead of running for governor, he recruited somebody else to run. And like you said, there seems to be a more of a backflow of money to the insiders that way rather than being out front and being the candidate yourself. Alright.

So the most interesting election besides the governor’s election, and I’m sure you are watching it as well. Was what should have been a completely obscure primary for state assembly where the longtime speaker of the state assembly, the most power Republican legislator Robin Boss was being challenged by another Trump backed candidate, the guy who nobody’d ever heard of before takes the most extreme positions in denying the election, says he would vote to ban contraception in Wisconsin. And he came within a few hundred votes ofousting Robin Voss, the sitting speaker of the assembly, This feels like an incredible morality tale, though, doesn’t it? You were watching this

and thinking to yourself. Ramon Voss is getting everything that he serve excuse me. I mean, you know, boss was was sucking up to Trump, wrote down the plane, would go down to marilago and explain, oh, no. I really am all about investigating the twenty twenty election and finding fraud and and anyway, come back to Wisconsin and then Trump would trash him again because he wasn’t fighting hard enough to overturn the twenty twenty election. And the best part of all this was, boss thought he was being clever, he appointed a former state supreme court justice to investigate the twenty twenty election and Michael Gabelman, the supreme court justice, turned out to be a complete conspiracy theory

not And

It

was

It actually endorsed Voss’s opponent in the primary because he didn’t think he had enough support from Voss though.

You know,

boss is paying him this has all been reported. He’s been paying gables and keeping goms of money with invoices that wouldn’t pass muster in any purchasing department in any company in in America. And gave them into destroying public records and all that and bosses refused to fire them. You think that cable, we would have had a little more gratitude. No.

They they pissed away about a million dollars in taxpayer money when I think what they paying them ten thousand, eleven thousand dollars a month plus all of these expenses and everything. And and I I’ve described Gaitlyn as a supersized one man clown car. I mean, it was a complete disaster. And yet, Voss continued to back him because he thought this would appease the maga base and it it didn’t. And, you know, and I’m sorry people think I’m overusing this, but I I just I keep thinking this is he’s the poster child for, you know, failed Trump suck up.

I mean, he thought he could grow the baby alligator in the bathtub and toss it occasional bits of red meat, and it wouldn’t grow up frawl out and begin eating people, and and boss didn’t think it would come for him, and it did. And so he came within an inch of being ousted because he told Donald Trump he made it with all the sucking up. Mister Trump, I am sorry, but There is no legal mechanism to decertify the election in Wisconsin if that would be illegal. He was willing to do everything up until that point, kind of like Mike Pence. And he was like, hey, I can’t do this.

There’s no way to overturn a presidential election and Trump decided I will kill you because you won’t break the law on my behalf. Yeah.

And the other interesting thing about the whole vast debacle was he also appointed state representative, Chidel Branch, and another conspiracy theory to be in charge of the elections committee and the state assembly,

and

she turned around in in endorsed Vas’s opponent. And Vas has had a reputation in the past of being a little vindictive towards people who have just held committee hearings had issues that busted and even want raised and ousting them from committees. And yet he’s tolerated Janelle Branchin. He’s bashing him from this position as a committee chairman because Vas is too afraid to rile up the Trump vote against him. Well,

he And if

anything, the this election proved that maybe he had a point. Maybe if he had taken action against the the monsters that he had created that he would have been thrown out of.

Yes. Yeah. I I just don’t know. Okay. So was talking to somebody this morning about this and and they said, well, I think Robin Walsh has learned his lesson.

I mean, last night, he was asked by reporters, well, what do you can do about, you know, Michael Gabelman in his, you know, million dollar investigation now. And Voss declared that, you know, Gabelman was an embarrassment to this state. K. That’s the irony, of course, because it was lost as we authorized and appointed and stood by a gay woman and all this. But I was told I said, I think he’s learned his lesson.

I said, what does that mean? What lesson did he learn? I mean, he could have learned the lesson. Don’t ever cross Trump. But this person told me, no.

He’s learned the lesson. They’re gonna they’re gonna fire, give them. But if not today, then certainly very, very soon. And I wouldn’t count on Janelle Branch and being the chairman of that committee. So the lesson being, you know, if you give these people, you know, an inch, they will just, you know, eat your face.

We’ll see whether in fact they learned that lesson. But I think that, you know, this is the cautionary tale for people who think that oh, you know what, if we provide air cover to the big lie, it won’t come back to bite us in the ass. And what happens is these things metastasize.

So that that,

I mean, that really would have been an extraordinary moment if he would have lost. In fact, for much of the evening, it looked like he might lose. And that would have taken the party, you know, into complete, you know, full manga here. So let’s talk about the governor’s race because now we have the we have a marquee match up between Tony Evers and Tim Michaels. And of course, the Senate race, which I think even non Cheezheads are are paying attention to Ron Johnson versus Democrat, Mandela Barnes.

We are both in the wild

counties. I am in Washington County right now, and you are in Waukesha County. Right? So Lovely

sunny Waukesha County, crucial Waukesha County. It is a beautiful day

here in southeastern Wisconsin. So give me your read of the this matchup between Evers and Tim Michaels because and again, for people on on the on the outside. Every Republican that I know of a few months ago was feeling very, very jiggy about this election. The assumption here was that this was going to be a big Republican suite that where the state is gerrymandered. There’s no question that the Republicans will control legislature.

And Tony Evers has perceived to be very weak and very vulnerable. What is your read now that they’ve gone with tremplified Tim Michaels as the nominee. Well,

Evers has already come out and attacked Michaels for being the most extreme candidate for governor ever. Mhmm. I I think that that’s the way he’s gonna run. The interesting thing that for Evers is that he is gonna run actually on the Republican legislature’s accomplishments as far as keeping taxes down and things like that. And he was also interestingly taken a different tack on the abortion issue.

He has actually said, you know, he would like to see Wisconsin very restrictive eighteen hundreds law repealed, but he would be willing to live with what was passed under Governor Scott Walker, the the ban on abortion after twenty weeks,

the

ultrasound requirement, the twenty four hour waiting period. So Evers has already staked out a moderate position in a portion, and I think he’s gonna just bash Tim Michaels on on a portion. With no exceptions. And So where

where is Michael’s on abortion? The last

I checked, and he was he was courtingly pro life Wisconsin, and trying to get the no exceptions. But Okay.

No exceptions. No exceptions for rape, no exceptions for incest. This would be pretty much like the Indiana law. I

believe that is my his current position and, you know, we’ll see if that holds up because he’s likely to probably flip flop during the the general See,

this is what’s interesting to me. And I I again, I think the the fundamentals would favor the Republicans in an off year election where they tend to do well. Clearly, the the national environment has been very, very hostile to the Democrats. Things may be shifting a little bit, but you do wonder whether or not Republicans all around the country are perhaps going to blow this by nominating candidates who are too extreme. I mean, Tim Michaels, I think has three big big question marks over his head.

Number one, as I think I’ve said, I mean, I I think it was obvious during the primary that he is not ready for prime time candidate. I mean, he clearly is not read up on the issues. So there’s a reason why they kept him away from reporters. There’s a reason why he dodged the debates. He was very ill prepared, I thought.

So there’s a vulnerability there. That’s number one. Number two, the fact that he’s made it very clear that he has joined at the hip with Donald Trump. And that he will now have to support and endorse everything Donald Trump says or does. And so that’s a wild card.

Right? And then number three is this question of of abortion. I’ve been telling people that for me, that’s the wildcard. I just don’t know how that’s going to play. It would seem that there’s a big potential that that will motivate Wisconsin voters in Madison, in the Madison area, and in Milwaukee to turn out in big numbers and might hurt the Republicans in in these WOW counties where you and I are right now, Waukesha, Ozaki, and Washington County.

What do thing. Well, I

think that there’s gonna be a definite appeal for the Democrats. So the suburban, normally, Republican women in those wild counties that have been slowly drifting away from the Republican Party since the since the rise of Donald Trump. And I think that there’s definitely gonna be an appeal to them just like Joe Biden made an appeal to the suburbs to try to just peel away enough of those votes to to keep the Republican margins down there to to give them enough votes to win. But, you know, as vulnerable as Michael’s is, we gotta talk about how vulnerable everest is and the big issue. I mean, burning canoesha is going to be played over and over again.

And we’re gonna be talking about that issue both in the governor’s race and in the senate race of of the protests down in canalship. Setting fire to the downtown. And they’re also gonna be talking about the boarded up windows of Madison during the protest. Statues being dragged to Lake Mendota, state legislator getting beat up in the riots, all while Governor Evers was perceived to be doing nothing. And I think that that is gonna make him vulnerable, and it’s also gonna affect the Mandela Barnes who’s running for US Senate.

I

wanna underline what you’re just saying here because, again, if people are not in the Wisconsin media market, this might not be on their radar screen, but burning Kenosha is really a huge issue here. And the memories are still very, very, very, very fresh. And you know that Evers thinks it’s of vulnerability because he’s been running ads, trying to say, no, no, no, I really did send in the national guard right away. I I was not slow doing it, but there’s a lot of issues around there. That of course then dovetails with rising crime in in places like Milwaukee, which the Republicans are trying to pin on either.

So In terms of the big issues, my sense is the Republicans, of course, gonna run an inflation on the what they perceived to be the bad economy. On law and order, all of those issues in both of those those races. And so, yes, that is a vulnerability. And I think people need to understand that. So you raise the other big race that’s that people are gonna be focusing on around the country.

And I think I’ve made it clear that I have been skeptical about Mandela Barnes’ ability to beat Ron Johnson, so I wanna get your take on the vulnerabilities of both Johnson and Mandela Barnes because it is kind of interesting this year. And I I don’t know James is maybe I’m going too far here, but I was I was thinking back to previous years where both the Democrats and Republicans thought that they’d put up pretty strong candidates And this year, you have deeply flawed candidates for governor and deeply flawed candidates for senate on the part of both of the political parties.

A

stock, Ron Johnson. I think objectively going into this year, he was the most vulnerable Republican incumbent. As long as Democrats did not nominate somebody outside of the Wisconsin political mainstream. Now, I get a lot of pushback on this, James. I have a lot of questions.

About Mandela Barnes, who is unapologetically progressive, was the candidate endorsed by Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, has played Footsie with the folks from the squad, lots of ties to defund the police, the famous t shirt of him, whole, you know, picture of him holding up a t shirt saying abolish ice. So give me your read on how Mandela Barnes plays in a general election in twenty twenty two in Wisconsin? The Delaware

Barnes is worse than all that, actually. If I I been shaking my head since the beginning of the of the Democratic primaries where they’re they were sorting through their candidates because Mandela Barnes is probably the was the worst of the four candidates that they could have run. Not only does he have the the extreme political positions, but he also has some personal baggage. This is a guy who didn’t pay his property taxes on time, and then which is a big issue in Wisconsin. Property taxes are always a sore issue.

And when he was asked about it, he said, well, he was too busy running for lieutenant governor. This was a guy who had to be cartered around by the state patrol because he didn’t pay his parking tickets. And he’s not exactly what you call your your your heavyweight candidate. And it wasn’t tested

on this stuff in the primary because the government wasn’t

tested And all years ago, when he ran for lieutenant governor, he was in an accident back then. He’s because nobody else ran for lieutenant governor. So he got the job And now four years later, his opponents decided that they weren’t gonna attack him at all. Even though he was definitely a target rich environment. And they all dropped out of the race rather than go negative on them.

And curious, he’s the nominee, and this is a guy who chaired an environmental task force that recommended raising the gas tax just so people would use less gasoline you can imagine how well that’s gonna play in Wisconsin or supports

the

green new deal, which dairy farmers are gonna hold against them because the the Green New Deal, they see as a threat. I mean, this is a I mean, he’s not. Exactly a candidate that’s going to appeal to any voters outside of Milwaukee and Madison in his rhetoric around the burning inertia will be used against them as well now

for people who think that we are being excessively negative. My point is, look, there are going to be tens of millions of dollars spend on this race of Apple Research, and that is about to drop big time. So if if if you’re upset that you’re hearing about this on the podcast, Wisconsin voters are going to be hearing about this every time they turn on television or the radio. Why do you think This is not a rhetorical question. Why do you think Democrats decided to basically fold all their cards and go all in with Mars?

There were other candidates in the race. Alex Lasry was well funded, the surrogate loose keys, the city and state treasurer. There were other candidates that that had a chance to carve out a less controversial lane, I was constantly being inundated with text messages and emails from other Democrats saying we are really worried about this. We think we have real questions about Mandela Barnes is electability and everything. And and yet when it came right down to it, they decided that, okay, we we give

up we’re gonna go with this. Why did they do that? I think here’s a couple of reasons. One, the base of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin is is a little more to the left than the base of the Democratic Party in other states. It did support Bernie Sanders, for example, over Hillary Clinton big.

Yeah. So so, I mean, you do have that that problem right there that the electorate on the Democratic side, when it comes to their primaries, they tend to run to the left. But There’s also a belief fueling the democrats that if they just gin up their base enough and if they turn out more votes in in Milwaukee and Madison. If they just keep cranking up that machine that they’ll overcome any advantage that that the Republicans may have elsewhere, which I think is a huge mistake. They’re not understanding of the environment that they’re in.

They’re gonna need every single disaffected Republican voter that they can get. And Mandela Barnes is not the candidate that’s going to attract them. They’re gonna have to hope that there’s enough anti Ryan Johnson sentiment out there that either Republicans stay home, which I don’t think is going to happen. Or Republicans are turned off by the clown show that Ron Johnson is that they’ll still vote for Mandela, but they’ll be holding their nose doing it. My wife, for example, would be the perfect swing voters.

She voted for fine gold in two elections. She never voted for Republican until George w Bush. Comes from a long line of democrats, suburban educated woman professional, and yet to her first reaction to Mandela Barnes says, he’s a moron. That was her exact

words.

So I

can’t imagine that Democrats really think that he’s going to appeal to the to the center of the electorate.

So to your point about the disaffected Republicans and the importance in Wisconsin, what people need to understand about Wisconsin politics is that, you know, a lot of these big races have been decided by twenty thousand votes. It is a nice edge. Trump won Wisconsin by about twenty thousand votes twenty sixteen. He lost Wisconsin by about twenty thousand votes in twenty twenty. Scott Walker was defeated in twenty eighteen by Tony Evers by about twenty thousand votes.

So what what are those twenty thousand votes? When when Joe Biden beat Donald Trump in twenty twenty. I thought one of the interesting statistical analyses show that Trump had run considerably behind other Republican candidates. If you added up all of those, you you correct me if I’m wrong about this. If you added up all of the other Republican votes for Congress, here in Wisconsin, he would have won.

Right? If he would have gotten all those other Republican voters. So again, no, cutting to the chase here, our elections are decided most recently by these disaffected voters. In twenty sixteen, for example, Trump barely won Wisconsin, Ron Johnson won handily. If Johnson were to perform at Trump levels, he’s vulnerable.

But if all the Republicans go home, he’s going to win. Okay. Now, you mentioned the only way that Mandela Barnes can be competitive or win is to capitalize on the anti Johnson vote. Now,

I was

talking to a political consultant about this. He said, you know, the problem with Johnson is he has said so many reckless stupid extreme things that is hard to keep up with them. There are just too many. But Johnson continues to double down and don’t know whether you had the same reaction to this. The week that Barnes nailed down the nomination, you’d figure that the Johnson folks would be saying, okay, you know, we are in great shape what does Johnson do he goes out?

And he suggests that Social Security and Medicare be made discretionary spending items like, whoa, Does anybody wanna win this race? Or is there this campaign, like, who can actually touch the third rail more aggressively? Yeah. So, I mean, John and has real vulnerabilities and his poll numbers

really have

been in the tank for a while. Right. And you

wanna talk about candidate that was trying to sound like Paul Ryan without understanding what Paul Ryan was talking about. That was that was

That was

Ron Johnson last week. Yeah. Ron Johnson is of, you know, you can go on Twitter and say, you know, what stupid crap did Ron Johnson say today?

He is

a

gaffomatic machine, and he doesn’t see his gaffes, and he’s actually running radio ads, trying to say the conservatives, you know, are you really gonna trust the liberal media? And he’s got the the ads directing you to the site where he tries to set the records rate, which just makes them look even

worse.

Because he he just keeps doubling down on all these stupid things that he’s been saying, And when we’re talking about the seven things we’re saying, you know, it’s everything from the people at the January sixth riot where we’re merely tourist looking for the rope line to to his quack medicine recommendations see. I mean, you can just run down the list. And after a

point, it

it

it’s it’s very Trump like it becomes exhausting to the point where you don’t you just kinda

look at it

in his scope. It’s all one big blob of misinformation. And so are you gonna are you gonna look for the blob of misinformation? Are you gonna look for the guy? And and you can site very specific examples of things that he’s done inside.

So

I’ve stopped trying to answer the question when reporters asked me, like, what happened to Ron Johnson? Is either Ron Johnson that you knew back in twenty ten. And for a while, I had some theories about what broke Ron Johnson’s brain, but now I’ve kind of just given up on it. What do you think? An excessively optimistic view of what Johnson was like back in twenty ten, but something happened to him.

That Ron Johnson of twenty ten is not the same Ron Johnson who has been just pedaling one bullshit kraft pot idea after another now. I mean, give some insight into what broke Ron Johnson’s brain? On

the twenty sixteen campaign, he was left to fend for himself. Yeah. He was written off by the by the republican party. He is probably going to lose to former senator Russ Feingold, and and Johnson managed to pull the election out. You like you said, by a larger margin than Trump won.

Any chance you think

that mean? Yeah.

I I think that this to a certain extent, it’s I don’t need to listen to anybody anymore because look how well I did when I when I only listen to myself and we won. The other side of it is Charlie, I mean, what’s happened to Ron Johnson is reflects ways that’s happened to the Republican Party in Wisconsin as a whole. It’s it’s as if you’re in Rosemary’s baby and you discover that all your endeavors are Satanists after all. Yes. Maybe.

Or the other example is beneath the planar of the apes when they all rip off their faces to worship the atom bomb. That’s the way

it feels. I mean, these movies resonate with me. I think that

we’re seeing the real Ron Johnson to a certain extent on all these issues. That we didn’t see in two thousand ten because think about it. Natalie is a hit, you said, Ryan Johnson’s talking about, no. Were issues in two thousand ten. The things that were important in two thousand ten were how are we going to get federal spending under control?

In two thousand sixteen, we hit Donald Trump who didn’t give a damn about how we get federal spending under control. So we’re seeing the The other side of Ron Johnson, you take away that one issue from him, and you’re seeing

what you

guys do these

crack part theories. Alright. Well, that this actually makes sense. That that is plausible. Also, the incentives have have changed in Republican politics as this was this podcast, and I’ve heard over and over again.

But, you know, another way to think about it is, you know, imagine if you are a Republican politician and you wanna stay a Republican politician, ain, you begin to realize that when you talk about reasonable common sense things, you basically get an electric shop. Right? It’s a version therapy. People eyes glaze over. They don’t wanna hear it.

They’re not interested. But when you say crazy conspiracy theory, when when you mall the magma slogans, they treat you like a beloved rock star. So at a certain point, you know, this invasion of the body snatchers thing that described it is still Joan of Goldberg’s line once again. In part, it’s it’s the number of people whose heads are turned or were weak enough to begin with, who really respond to the kind of celebrity they get for being reckless. That is what is rewarded.

And right now, So Ron Johnson is is a, you know, kind of a laughing stock and, you know, to much of the country. But when he comes, you know, back to the O’Oreal clear Republican party or hangs around in Florence County. They love him. They embrace him. These are his people.

Right? So and he knows what he has to do. To stay in with his people. They will protect him. They have his back.

And so you see how these figures are drawn into these strange little corners of the swamp or, you know, sucked into one rabbit hole after another because they get no reward for resisting it, and they get lots of rewards and hugs and kisses for saying things that you and I think are absolutely insane. Well,

and they take it a step further. Ron Johnson now gets to go on the local talk shows, and he gets to talk to these talk show hosts that are always pushing the envelope more, trying to give give their audience the the straight heroin rather than the the old pat brownies that they used to get. And so, Ron Johnson goes on these shows and he just feeds into that. He becomes the pusher for

for

the straight arrow. By

the way, I love this analogy. I think this analogy of, like, the drug dealers needing to constantly up the dosage and up the intensity is crucial for understanding a lot of our politics. And and you can see that it’s like, okay, we’ve got people outraged about this. Or indignant about this, or we’ve got them paranoid about this. But, you know, you know, somebody pedaling something stronger, you know, is is somebody hoarding in on my territory.

So, you know, the the the pot brownie of twenty ten just doesn’t cut it anymore. You have to be peddling the straight blue meth if you want to appeal to say the Vicky McKenna radio audience. She’s a talk show host in in Madison who basically have you noticed this that when Ron Johnson says something really crazy, just like what the hell is he thinking about? I would say ninety percent of the time, it’s because he appeared on Vicki McKenna’s show doing exactly what you just described. It’s like, how do you pander to that audience?

They keep pushing and he keeps heaps going along with it.

Yeah. Exactly. And then you go to these Republican events and they don’t wanna hear well, you know, we tried to do this and we’re working on a compromise with the president on that. They don’t wanna hear that. They they don’t wanna hear how you’re gonna fight the socialist and keep the border

sealed.

Even if you have to keep the border sealed with Illinois to do it, it’s just Is that what are you gonna do to fight antifa? Yeah. What are you gonna do? Look, because

people shouldn’t misunderstand when we’re talking about some of the Wisconsin politics. I mean, you know, all of these guys have gone right. So for example, no, please do not misinterpret what I’m saying about, say, Rebecca Klafishu, the establishment candidate who went down to defeat. I mean, she she tried to play the MAGA card. She actually came into my suburb in Mequan, Wisconsin.

And very actively supported a recall of the school board over allegations they were teaching critical race theory. I mean, she was in that world But see, that’s the kind of thing. Rather than sit around and talk about, here’s my policy initiatives, my ideas for solving these problems, this is now what they are demanding. They’re demanding critical race there. They’re demanding more stuff about burning canossia or antifa or what will trigger the lips.

All of this stuff and that’s not confined to Wisconsin and it’s certainly not confined even to Ron Johnson. No. And

to give give you an idea of just how far the Republican Party Wisconsin is

gone. We

had a a a primary for state attorney general in the in the person who lost, barely lost. Adam Jarko, a former state representative. Jarko actually believed that the state attorney general could enforce his vision of what should be taught in the classroom under current law. Not even calling for a new law like they have down in Florida, he thought that the state attorney general could tell teachers what they could teach in their classroom. I mean, that’s the and he almost won Charlie.

It’s actually amazing. He didn’t win. Yeah. It’s it is it is it is amazing. Well, that’s going to be another close race.

My prediction, if anybody was putting a gun to my head, would be that Wisconsin will be Wisconsin in November and that despite whatever is happening nationally, that that these races will probably be decided about I don’t know. I’m gonna go out of the limb here. Twenty thousand votes. What do you think? I think we’re gonna be having a recount at Christmas.

It’s like, okay. It can’t get any worse than this. No. Okay. Here’s my worst case scenario and then you one up me on all of this.

It will will have recounts at Christmas and then, you know, stop the steel rallies in the state capital. This is our future even here in Wisconsin, James Wiggerson, thank you so much. James Wiggerson’s new newsletter is life under construction, former editor of Wright Wisconsin columnist for a long time conference with the Waukesha Friedman. Right? So, I mean, if it’s one

of the years, Waukesha,

crucial Waukesha politics, James Wiggerson is the go to guy. So thanks for joining me. I appreciate it. Thanks, Charlie. The Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Seres.

I’m Charlie Sykes. Thank you for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast, and we’ll be back tomorrow and do this all over again. You’re worried

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