Indictment III: Revenge of the 6th

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the next level. I’m J VL here with

my best friends. Sarah Longwell and Timothy Miller of the Bulwark. We’ve got indictment number three, three of four. Hopefully, we’ll collect the entire set. Came out.

This is Wednesday. It came out Tuesday. You think we can go to five?

What’s your fifth one? What’s what do you

believe? The New York New York fraud. Doesn’t that count? The Trump org?

We’re not counting that one. Oh, the trump org?

No. I don’t.

That’s And

also that wasn’t was that criminal or was that civil?

Come on.

I I

It’s only four. I only get four. That’s fine. I’m happy with four.

Okay. Well, I’m not happy. I think this is all very bad. And, Where do we wanna start? Do we wanna start with the indictment itself for the reactions to it?

Because the reactions to it are what really make me Very nervous.

Let’s save

that. Let’s save that. Okay. Okay. So here here, let’s, let’s do a quick scorecard.

Let’s go down the unindicted co conspirators of which there are six. We believe that unindicted co conspirator number one is Rudy. Number two is very clearly John Eastman. Number three, Sydney, the Cracken Powell, number four, Jeffrey Bulwark, of the Department of Justice, Number five is the Cheesebrow, Kenneth Cheesebrow, the lawyer, and number six seems to be a mystery possibly Steve Bannon?

No. I don’t think so. I thought it was a guy named Mike Roman. It was like a long time kind of Republican party rat fucker type. But somebody, I saw Paul Blueenthal tweeted that he thought that the the indictment references someone as the agent who does something that we all know Mike Roman did So we don’t really know.

Ept boris eptstein is another possibility.

Oh, it

could be boris eptstein.

That’s a good one.

So the reason we care about the anodietic co conspirators is because this is, I believe, the list of people who will be pressured to roll. Right? They they are the ones who will be pressured to cut a deal. That is interesting. We can take away from this indictment that Mike Pence, narced.

Mike Pence was taking notes the entire time. It’s almost like Trump sitting vice president and governing partner understood the entire time that his boss was a criminal and was trying to protect himself. It’s amazing. We’ve got four counts of what essentially are, like, conspiracies to defraud the United States government. Sarah, what are your thoughts?

So first, I wanna give a shout out to Barry Rubin, who has been making, like, these AI generated audio versions of the indictment since I was listening to it. And It does read a bit like a play with four acts. It’s an amazing piece of craftsmanship, but what one of the things that struck me was how much we already knew that was in there. Right? Because if you’ve been watching the January sixth committee hearings and you’ve been following it, like, none of this is a big surprise.

I was doing morning edition this morning, and they kind of asked me for, like, what did you think when you read the indictment? And I I gave an honest answer which is sort of a sad answer, which is I know this will change nothing. Even though this is such a the nature of this one is is more serious than the other ones so far. It’s different in, its breadth and in the severity of what it was trying to do. It’s sort of more essential to accuracy.

I’m really glad this indictment this one got brought. I would think it was not assured we would get this one around January sixth, which is again, I think a testament to the work of the January sixth committee. I think they put together a case that felt unignorable and they didn’t ignore it. There was I saw Chris Hayes on TV kind of bemoaning the fact that this didn’t come sooner, right, that, like, we knew much of this and, like, why did it take so long? I don’t know the answer to that, but, like, If it means that what they have is a super tight case and it feels awfully tight, then I’m glad.

I’m glad they took their time and did Right. I I also one of the things I noticed when I listened was immediately upfront. They do not dispute the fact that Trump had the ability that he was he’s allowed as part of free speech to lie to people about the election. Like, they say that. He can lie to people.

And and that’s not what we’re trying to get him for. And what’s interesting is that he very clearly states that, and yet so many of the people I see defending him are defending him on free speech grounds. I don’t know if you saw the NROs editorial about how, like, this will not stand. This is the one. This is the one.

The Georgia case is, like, connected to this. Right? It’s, like, a piece of the conspiracy. It is him trying to get Brad Raffensberger to him eleven thousand votes. But this is the big one.

I just know from I just had a focus group two days before this came down, and we were asking, and the indictments are, like, they’re a blur to people. They cannot tell them apart. People have already made up their minds about January sixth and Trump’s level of culpability. So that part is depressing, but Yeah.

Yeah. I guess I’ll I’m gonna offer a counter view to both. I don’t I’m not depressed at all or sad nor do I think that it changes nothing. So So I’ll I Will Saletan that case.

Can I just say that I don’t think it changes nothing? I think it changes nothing in the Republican primary.

Oh, I concur with that. If anything that probably might help them in the Republican primary. But you know, people do get wrapped up by the images of of courtroom dramas. Right? Like, big cases do in rapture, the American public.

We’re interested in that as a as a people, casuals are interested in that. This would be You know, I mean, the we cannot we could quibble whether it’s the case of the century or not, but, it certainly will be, you know, one of the biggest cases of you know, the last hundred, years. And so, you know, having Donald Trump, and the reason this is brought now pretty clearly. I I mean, I think these are two possible reasons that we have the six conspirators. One is what you laid out JBLs that they’re trying to get them to roll.

The other one, you know, which Andrew Weisman and others have

been have been pointing out, I I think correctly is that, you know, turning this trial around requires making it as narrow as possible. Right? And so, you know, if you have six co defendants then you have six lawyers and six different people that can, you know, ask for continuances and blah, right? If you have one defendant that will help speed things up. And and the judge that has been appointed to this also, has been the toughest judge on January sex defendants, and and they think we’ll be playing ball on that.

So, you know, having Donald Trump have to go to trial in the middle of the twenty twenty four campaign, after he’s the nominee presumably. I think absolutely, you know, makes a big difference. And and

I think that, like, having to relitigate of. Again, we, the nerds, like, January six ratings did pretty well. I think you’ll forget, like, like, the January six hearings, it was like Super Bowl And, you know, some TV show on CBS, I don’t watch, and then,

like, the January sixth hearings.

Right? So I I I think that this would draw in casuals and has and has a difference in that front. It’s also, I he fucking deserves

to go down for this. He deserves to go down for this.

And I and I am very frustrated when you get to the reactions by people. Anybody eat one centimeter to the right of us, you know, is like, well, these are some novel charges that Jack Smith is bringing and that maybe actually isn’t as as, cut and dry as the documents case. And it’s like, well, yeah, it’s a novel. We haven’t had a president try to, you know, engage in a conspiracy to overthrow the government before. Like, like, what precedent do you want us to turn to?

You know, I I mean civil war precedent? Right? Like, of course that that he’s using some novel thing. You know, and this this notion that like, oh, we can’t know what’s in his mind and, you know, this person is too like, is too deluded to be able to understand what he did. I all that stuff is just absurd to me, and and we can get into the details, but I I think that It was important that he was charged for this.

They are his seventy fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth felony counts, and I think that you know, the Republican Party is boxing themselves into him with their response to him right now as we speak, And and I think that it absolutely will make a difference that he’ll be on trial for multiple charges next spring in summer.

Are you certain of that timing?

We’re certain that the May date was what was set by Aileen Cannon in in Miami. So I I think that gives us

kind of like that. That was before the amended indictment. Right? It was superseding indictment.

Yeah. I bet that one gets pushed. Yeah.

Sure. It could get pushed. I bet that I I just as a rule of thumb. Right? Like, you would it’s clear that this is why Jack Smith

was pushing this right now. I I

he hasn’t said that. Know, but I I don’t

I don’t think that there’s any doubt that that this is coming out when it’s coming out because he’s trying to get this done before before the And so I I think that May is a good kind of rule of thumb. We we don’t know for sure.

I wanna prod you a little bit here, Timothy.

Okay. Great. Probably.

Why do you think that this would have any negative consequences for Trump during a general election. Isn’t all of this stuff hasn’t it been priced in with Trump from the very beginning? Hasn’t everybody There’s there’s

a choppy of the gonna do one sentence and Sarah can go.

Okay.

People have the memory of a nap. You just see it throughout the entire last nine years when bad Donald Trump stuff is in the news, his number go down. And then, like, a week later goes by and they’re like, oh, I’m kind of annoyed by how much eggs cost. And, like, was Donald Trump really that bad? I can’t remember.

So, like, having this shit in front of their face, I I it does have a meaningful difference. Not on people listen to the next level podcast or watch

it on YouTube, but for for casual. For the people that are just, you know, watching sports.

Yeah. Can I just say one of the things that contributed to the Ron DeSantis boomlet prior to the twenty twenty two election was also the January six Committee hearings? The visceral imagery of January six. Like, if that’s the central case. Like, here’s the thing.

I’m not sure Tim’s right. I’ve basically given up hope that any of these trials take place on the backdrop of a general election. If this January sixth one does though, I do think that would matter. I think putting the images of January sixth in front of people, having the salience of that be top of mind about Trump, I think that hurts him. But I really agree with Tim.

People forget about it all the time. Like, I’m gonna quote this guy a lot because I think it’s he said something just really succinctly that I think encapsulates a lot of what I’m hearing from what I’m gonna call the back sliders, which is he said, I’m gonna turn off the TV. I’m gonna close my eyes, and I’m just gonna enjoy Trump’s economy. Right? And so, like, there is

Just enjoy Joe Biden’s economy.

Wow. Okay. But this is a common sentiment, and this is why in that New York Times Santa poll, Trump and Joe Biden are dead even. It is because there’s backsliding for people to think that I think if you put January sixth in front of those people and, hopefully, the economy stays in a good place, I think that matters going into a general election.

I I’m I’m I’m I’m sorry. My brain is like malfunctioning. I have to ask. Is it the contention of you too, my best friends? That the fact of being told that the man running for president is under multiple criminal indictments, is not enough to move just normie voters that they have to see a trial on TV every day to understand the gravity of it.

Because if that’s the truth, then this country is populated by fucking idiots. Right? I mean Yeah. No. There are

a lot of dumb people out there.

I don’t care. But also, so a lot of things matters what of mind of people. But one of the things, I this is this is what you hear from swing voters who voted for Joe Biden. They think he is too old. They do not like Kamwell Harris.

Like, they think he’s gonna die in office. She’ll be president. Like, there is I’m just saying there’s, like, a lot going on and that right now, in this moment, I think people should be very afraid, and I think that Donald Trump can win. That said.

Agree. Strong agree.

In this moment, in this moment, we are in Joe Biden referendum territory. When we get to the general election and it becomes a choice, And Donald Trump is back in people’s faces. Like, right now, he’s over, like, crapping out truth things, like, and saying that nobody sees. No normies see

that.

And the times that he’s been sort of mainstream visible lately, like on the CNN town hall, he looked like, good for him. Right? Like, it it was a perfectly fine performance for him, but I think made people be like, oh, he looks pretty good. And Yeah. I don’t love the mainstream media, and I don’t like these institutions.

And man, I’ll tell you these focus groups. The way that what people say they’re like so one of the theories I think a lot of people had was that the accumulation of the indictments, right? Like, we like to say the numbers, like, there’s seventy different counts or that there’s, like, the people who are, like, hoping there’s this cumulative effect And under the weight of that, voters would be like, it’s just, you know, it’s too much. And look, I’m currently running a campaign that’s literally, like, the guy’s got too much back. Like, there is a group of voters that that think that.

But one of the things that is happening is the way that these indictments are turning into white noise for the voters. They can’t tell the things apart. I even had this moment when the superseding indictment came out, and I was like, what case is that a part of? Like, is this a new indictment? Like, there’s just It is and so people, they they were just saying this in the group.

Multiple people were like, I don’t care. Like, this they’re just trying to get him. They’re gonna keep trying to get him. And there’s just another indictment every day, and I don’t care.

I love how when Sarah gets serious about the indictment, our democracy, she gets a little whisper voice. I was like, I kind of scared. This makes me

think about her children. And it’s like, oh, wait.

The yelling Sarah isn’t the scary one. It’s the whisper voice. It’s like, I’m getting serious now. I’m getting serious. I wanna just really quick.

Yes. Back to your question. People need

to get beat over the fucking head with the shit.

You’ll need to get beat over the head with the detail. And the right and and seriously with the white noise and him being on trial for this stuff at that Mike Pence, who, as you pointed out, obviously, cooperate here. Most of the new material in this indictment years to come from Mike Pence. You know, there are several one on one conversations. Mike Pence calling to wish Donald Trump a Merry Christmas for some reason.

Donald trump being like Mike Pence, why aren’t you part of my coup? It’s a very it’s a very strange Christmas call, you know, for an AI generated movie forty years, hence, you know, kind of a dramatic scene. You can hear the, you know, kind of the Christmas music in the background as they have this call. So a lot of stuff stuff is there, but look, they need to see the details. I mean, I can’t lose Jeff Clark here.

Jeff Clark should be in prison. This is my basic number one take right now. Jeff Clark should already be in prison. Unclear to me why he’s walking free. I do not like the fact that the horns guy, you know, is in jail and Jeff Clark is not that that is like one area where I agree with, like, the Steve Secret Podcast.

I guess he doesn’t agree with the second part, but I I I don’t know that the shaman was as an important person to to prosecute as Jeff Bulwark. But anyway, here’s Jeff Clark. The deputy White House Council is telling him that that they’re gonna have to leave on January twenty that there has been no proof in the election and that they don’t leave. There’ll be riots in every major city in the US. Jeff Clark says, well, that’s why we have an insurrection act.

This guy is in the middle of trying to take over the department of justice and has a plan to use the military to crack down on protesters that are trying to push for a peaceful transition of power to the rightful winner. And that’s fucking lunacy.

I’m

like, yeah, this bald guy, like, outside in his boxer shorts outside of his house, you know, like, like, looking like pinky in the brain, like trying to fucking overthrow the United States government. Like, that is a pretty dramatic scene. Mike Pence testifying against his his former boss. A pretty dramatic scene having to relitigate the bill bar stuff. Like, all that stuff would absolutely matter.

And and and I think about the awkwardness that is potential. Jason Miller currently works for Donald Trump. He’s the leading spokesman on the campaign. So people are watching this guy go on cable to defend Trump. And then at some point, he’s gonna be subpoenaed and have to testify under oath with the video of him saying that he knew that Donald Trump lost.

That the January sixth committee showed. Where is I wearing that mask, and we’re gonna get to see his ch the chinless wonder without a mask explaining that he knew the entity told Donald Trump that Donald Trump had lost. So I I just, like, the white noise of the indictments breaks down as you get as you head towards the general election.

But it’s not that it’s the white noise that breaks down. It’s that one pops out. Right? One gets to be centered as opposed to there’s a bunch of things and people can’t really tell them apart. It’s that he is on trial for January sixth and refusing to engage in the peaceful transfer of power.

And also, it doesn’t hurt that, like, it’s a lot of opportunity for people to talk about the fact that Trump lost last time.

I mean, it it important to note that like the January sixth committee hearings, everybody who is in this indictment giving evidence against Trump as a Donald Trump supporter and or employee. This isn’t Nancy Pelosi in the Democratic deep state who are providing us evidence and testimony of Donald Trump’s criminal.

It’s not even Bill Crystal. It’s not even Never trumpers.

These are these are people who worked in many cases, like, past the election to help Donald Trump. Hershman, who, who who worked pretty hard to get the Hunter Biden laptop story out in October. Right? I mean, this is okay. He’s the one who went and said, I I lead the triad with this today.

But my favorite moment of the entire January sixth is when Hirschman is saying how he was on the phone with, John easement, This is on January seventh. Here’s Hirschman. I said I only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth from now on. Orderly transition. Said, I don’t wanna hear any other fucking words coming out of your mouth no matter what other than orderly transition.

Eventually, he, meaning John Eastman, said orderly transition. I said, good, John. Now, I’m gonna give you the best free legal advice you’ve ever gotten in your life. Get a great fucking criminal defense lawyer. You’re gonna need it.

And then I hung up on him. Again, this is not an ever trump. He was Trump’s lawyer on the first impeachment. And he stood there and watched everything that happened and said, a bunch of these people are gonna go to jail. Like, this is

Yeah. They’re trying a coup. This is illegal. You know, it’s just like this whole thing, but, oh, how are, you know, loud, and and even the dispatch, lowry, and, like, random magnacle, how are you gonna prove that Donald Trump knew? Like, how are they gonna prove Donald Trump?

I don’t know. How did the dominion lawyers prove? The the Fox House knew, how did they get seven hundred eighty seven million dollars? You know, you you prove it based on evidence. You prove it based on first person testimony, Cassidy Hutchenson, said she was in the room when Donald Trump admitted that he lost Mike Pence is a first person, you know, testifying this, his lawyer, his attorney general, his campaign manager, his spokesperson.

So there’s plenty of opportunity to try to prove this. I was like, this is, like, if the made off if Bernie made off, you know, was his defense was, like, I really thought that we were making that money. It’s like, what? What what do you mean you really thought we were making that money? I I you can’t this doesn’t it’s just not work like this.

And and and and to your point, it is all people that worked for him, people that are, credible. Another hero of this indictment is our our man Rusty Bowers, the speaker of the house in Arizona who comes in here multiple times, voted for Donald Trump, wanna Donald Trump to win. You know, was pressured by Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump wouldn’t buckle. You know, now he’s a private citizen. So I just totally reject the notion that there is not a

ton of evidence here that that that is both

effective politically and and criminally.

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Sarah Longwell you explain to me the thinking from some of the Trump defenders, which goes along the line of a, Donald Trump is not cognitively capable of understanding reality, and truly believed that he won the election. B, we still should elect Donald Trump rather than Joe Biden. Even though he is so disconnected from reality that he can’t under can you explain that to me? Cause I don’t I can’t I have to say I can’t quite understand how they get from a to b.

So this is bad because I become obsessed on this point, and it’s not anywhere the central point. Like these, this is ephemera, right? These people their dishonesty and their bad faith is not the central point. However, watching people right now And it’s like all these people who carried water for him. They carried water for him, and then they said on the day of January sixth, impeach him, I remember watching so many of them.

In that moment, they really can impeach him. And then they started to walk it back. And then they got on Ron DeSantis, Like, they they walked it back. Maybe we shouldn’t be just he’s gone now. Just leave him alone.

He’s not president anymore. Whatever. It’s fine.

You’re only gonna make him stronger if you try that.

That’s right. That’s right. There was never a good time for them to hold Trump accountable. There has never been a moment where they think it is acceptable to hold Trump accountable.

That’s wrong. There’s a one week window. When the Senate was on vacation. Oops, too bad. It was like the it was like from January thirteenth to January twentieth.

We could have done something right then, but I’ll oops, fortunately, the Senate was out of session and Mitch couldn’t call him back. Do you know, I I wanna just kind of watch Sarah’s face. Aren’t you read her some of your favorites of those reactions?

Alright, Sarah. We’re just gonna do, you know, reaction shots. It’s like the the when you do Jay, you should do his Jay walking segments.

Yeah.

Right. You know, interviewing Man on the street, Hugh Hewitt. I hope the charges brought

by the American Javer

are thrown out, but the TDS dead ender Coalition should listen carefully to what Jonathan Last told Brett Bear last night. The former president will be subpoenaing everyone who had anything to do with the unusual circumstances of the election twenty twenty. Meaning That

means the American javert. So Donald Trump didn’t didn’t steal a loaf of bread and break a window pane.

Well, the thing is that Inspector Javer was right, and John Val John was not innocent and falsely accused. He was guilty. I think you maybe not not didn’t read the book. Sean Davis.

Just really quick. I’m sorry. Really quick. TDS dead ender. Yeah.

Fuck. Yeah. Guilty is charged. Dead end. Like, dead end till he’s dead.

I I I have TDS. It’s like and and this is, like, how are you still using?

Mean. Does that mean, like, why aren’t we over our TDS now? Is that what that means? Like, we should be over it. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but, like, it’s gotten worse.

Not our TDS. He’s gotten worse. Like, our TDS is totally in sync with how bad he is.

And please subpoena me. Please subpoena me by the I’m I’m the I would love to introduce you to it. Subpoena everyone that had anything to do with the unusual circumstances. Bring it on. Let’s spend the entire twenty twenty four.

Relitigating all you all of your fucking fantasies. That’s great.

Yeah. I didn’t go hard enough at the anti anti is for these three. I just wanna say real quick, like, lowry baseballing. These guys are unbelievable. The worst one though or not I don’t know about the worst one, but, like, the one that I was is Tim Scott.

JBL, do you have that one?

Oh, we’re

we’re gonna get there.

Don’t go don’t go to

Tim’s side. Hold hold on.

Hold on. Okay.

We’ll do Tim’s side. He’s not the worst one. But Tim Scott, who is the great hope now for the Normandy Republicans.

Three percent.

I remain concerned about the weaponization of Biden’s DOJ and its immense power used against political opponents.

What we see today

are two different tracks of justice, one for political opponents, and another for the son of the current president. He’s very concerned. He’s so concerned.

I’ve been saying this all along. I have, like, I’ve had strong Tim Scott’s angling only for VP vibes. And this, to me, what because that guy absolutely knows better. To me, this was, like, very, like, real confirmation of that. But I also wanna say, this is, like, real triangle of doom stuff.

Why do I listen to voters in all of these focus groups talk about a two tier justice system? Because every conservative media outlet and every Republican politician the most normal among them are all pulling that line. This is why Donald Trump’s at fifty four percent. He’s at fifty four percent because this is how his opponent treat him.

Just two really quick things on Tim Scott. Go ahead.

Because then I’m gonna do my Mike Pence American savior routine.

So just a hunter biden, the son of the current president, just I followed the hundred Biden stuff pretty closely. Maybe not as closely as as a certain quarters. But, I don’t recall anybody kind of waving Hunter Biden flags above capital and, like, kind of stabbing cops with bear mace. I just so I just I don’t know if it’s we got an apple to apple scenario here. My other thing with Tim Scott is If Tim Scott was running for president, I go over this in the not my party, he could’ve just convicted Trump.

This is the whole thing of that the Tim Scott Pratt that’s such a farce Like his whole campaign is a farce. If you are actually running to win, he had a chance to take his top opponent off the field. He could have lobbied a couple of his pals, and they could have taken him off the field, convicted him. He didn’t he didn’t do that. And now he’s losing by fifty two points.

So anyway, that that fucking campaign is a joke.

Just remind me about some focus group chatter I got.

Let’s do it right now. I’m not gonna remind you to do it right now. Do give it to

Okay. So so we we were asking about the indictments. It was the indictment stuff is always the same. Two tier test system. It makes people wanna support Trump It’s a most people are neutral.

Like, it doesn’t change how they feel about Donald Trump. Then there’s always some people for whom it makes them more likely to support Donald Trump. There’s almost never anybody who says that makes them less likely. The most interesting thing about this group, two time trump voters, and it’s like, okay. So other than Trump, who do you like in the race?

And it’s a bunch of Tim Scott’s stands, and then Vivakramaswamy, and then one of them.

Damn, let’s not throw Stan out I’m telling you. Okay. So this is South

Carolina people, and they loved him. They loved them some Tim Scott. He is a gentleman and a scholar, and he is wonderful, and they voted for him every time he’s been up, and they’re excited to see him in Iowa. But here’s the thing, people are running through it. They’re talking about Vivec, Rama, swami.

One woman’s talking about how she’s she goes and she gives money to the underdogs. And I was like, she rattled off some names. There are people in this Republican primary that, like, I don’t know who they are. This happened in the Iowa group. Larry Elder.

Big Larry Elder. Know who that is.

Carrie Johnson.

Carrie, there’s a guy from Texas who’s, like, a preacher who’s in the race that gets brought up every now and then.

I wonder if he’ll get more, more votes than Will hurt.

Somebody brought up Bergam. Somebody brought up Bergam. Listen, and they’re all talking about these people. And I was sitting there being like, did nobody’s gonna mention to Stantis? No one is gonna mention to Stantis?

And nobody did. And in and when the moderator I was texting the moderator. I was like, oh my god. No one’s saying to Sanchez at all. And then I texted Megan and said, you know, put it out there.

And she was like, well, what do you guys think about this? Like, no one’s mentioned Ron DeSantis? That’s kinda crazy. And the guy was like, oh, I like Ron DeSantis. I like, see he’s fine.

Oh, he’s fine. And then somebody else was like, somebody else was like, he’s kinda wooden. He’s okay, but he’s kinda wooden, whatever. And then somebody else was like, I don’t know. I think he’s kinda sneaky.

Was like, this is brutal Ron DeSantis. He got fined and then sneaky and wooden.

Well, my mother was dressing for a night out and she and I came out and asked me what I thought about her outfit, and I said it was fine. She was like, that’s the worst thing that you could say about me that this that I look fine.

That was shocking.

Where is DeSantis headed for number wise, Sarah Longwell I don’t think he’s touched bottom. Do you?

No. I mean, Seth teen in that New York Times pool, which I think is that New York Times pool is really is good. Like, they spend a lot of money, and they get a lot of different ways in in terms of pulling voters. So that seventeen was, like, no. I mean, I think, like, I told you this before.

The word on the street is that Scott might overtake him in Iowa. And if if there’s a pool that comes out and does that, puts them in third in Iowa.

You think the bottom could drop out on his national number?

Yeah. The here’s the thing though. I mean, So I think the bottom could drop out on his national number. He’s like, I I have you seen anything that’s like signs of life from DeSantis? No.

People are

ready for another frontrunner, I think, like, in these groups too, people I mean, to have no one even mention him to me, what, to not even being contention was wild. He’s usually the first name and has been for a very long time as an alternative.

Does anybody ever mention pence?

No. They hate pence. They hate Pence. As I’ve said a million times before. And also, I don’t know why you’re standing for Pence, at the or you were hitting him for knowing the whole time that Trump was the worst.

Jay, if y’all contains multitudes.

I know he does contain multitudes.

Okay. Let

me tell you. Alright. I think there’s one thought on this, which is only to say, but there’s nobody else. This is this is where the Republican primary is starting to unravel is I who wants to not leave anything on the table when it comes to taking Trump out. And and willing to put money in to defeat him in this primary.

I’m still looking at these guys going. Alright. So DeSantis bottom falls out of DeSantis. Does Scott actually get anywhere near Trump?

Nope. It’s a really good article in the Bulwark of it this week.

I know. I know. I know. I know you’re on this.

It is much more likely that the primaries devolve into a coronation, kind of like Al Gore versus Bill Bradley, then that it becomes, like, an actual fight where it’s a a thing.

Can we go back to the I haven’t looked at everything, but I’m confident that the the guys at the National Review, though. They’ve been pretty, you know, they call balls and strikes over there. You know, and so I thought I figured they some of them might surprise us with a positive reaction. What do you think, JBL?

Hold on. First, I I’m gonna get my mic pence thing out. No matter how many times you guys try to derail me. Of all the reactions from conservative world last night, the single best and strongest It’s from Mike Pence. Today’s indictment serves as an important reminder.

Anyone who puts himself over the constitution should never be president of the United States. Totally strong, totally unequivocally. Who’s he talking?

Do you happen to mention who he’s talking about? Did he have say the name of the person that he’s saying that?

He’s indictment.

He, I mean, it’s pretty clear. It’s pretty clear to me. I mean, I, you know, he certainly was better than will

heard who

who will heard who starts out by saying let me let me do a drive on Will Hurd again. So Wil Hurd starts out being great. Let me be crystal clear. Trump’s presidential bid is driven by an attempt to stay out of prison and scam his supporters into footing his legal bills. Furthermore, his denial of the twenty twenty election results and actions on January sixth show he’s unfit for office.

Fantastic. We’ll hurt.

No. Nothing needs to be said.

Big thumbs up. Three tweets later.

Period.

Three tweets later. The Trump of twenty sixteen is a far cry from the desperate figure we see in twenty twenty four. It’s about time that our party, including the twenty twenty four candidates, wake up to the this guy cares only about himself, not our country’s future. Unlike in twenty sixteen, when he was awesome.

You know, that’s that’s really I I understand why he’s doing that. It’s really important that, you know, he has that in there so that he can appeal to people listening to the Matt Walsh podcast on the Daily Wire. And, you know, the people watching NewsMax who’s where the hair their hair was on fire because they’re super they’re gonna They might turn to him. You never know.

That’s not why he’s doing it. It’s not he’s not doing it to pursue not doing it to persuade people. He’s doing it to let himself off the hook.

Introducing Rich Valdez, America at night, the podcast.

Welcome to the conversation familiar. Perfect blend

of news and entertainment, interviews and insights.

It’s really just an expose on how messed up things are.

America’s nighttime town hall when you want.

It’s a huge problem that deserves a lot more attention.

Rich Valdez, America at night. Follow the podcast. Wherever you listen.

The reaction that scares me the most Sean Davis of the federalist. The DOJ is a domestic terror organization, and this country will not be a free country until it is defunded and dismantled in its entirety. You cannot have freedom or democracy in a country when it’s security services are allowed to indict its opponents. Calling the Department of Justice, a domestic terror organization, I mean, if words have meanings is a call to civil war. Right?

I mean, if if true, if it is true that the Department of Justice is a domestic terror organization, then how could any person of good conscience not take up arms against the federal government? I don’t understand. Right?

Yeah. Well, I here’s here’s another good one. Sean Davis, that take is closer

to the median primary voters take than Will Earth. So that’s a little that’s a scare.

That’s a that’s a first scary part to say. It is pretty bizarre that the fact that this is out there has not freaked out more people from the whatever you wanna call them, the Tim Scott crowd, to the normal crowd. We have already had one attack on the Capitol Sean Davis is not some

under the basement blogger that

nobody watches. Like the federal, you know, many federalist people go on Fox News. He Sean Davis worked for people in the Senate. They have a they have a big audience, you know, at at the federalist. And to be out there making comments that, like, make Corey Bush’s comments about the police look look very well modulated and and well considered.

I mean, he wants to dismantle the entire department of justice. Like, this is the the law and order party.

In its entirety. Like, you’re not putting words in his mouth or anything. This is the loan.

That that we should not have any federal police.

And yet, Sarah, it is true that swing voters see Republicans as the law and order party. Correct? I mean, this is just a thing that we see in every single election. When you break out the crosstabs?

It’s true. I mean, I don’t think that they quite equate the Department of Justice, which is a big federal agency with, like, beat cops.

Sure. But the FBI goes after some pretty serious criminals.

Talking about law and order. What they mean are local cops being able to beat black people. That’s what I’m not

I’m not I’m defending them. I’m just saying that, like, this has become part of what Republicans do now is they just, like, say they’re gonna dismantle all the agencies. Right? Like, this is like everybody’s platform now is I’m gonna fire Chris Ray, and we’re gonna we’re gonna get rid of the Department of Education. And we’re gonna get rid of the deposit

on board for firing Chris Ray on day one.

Yeah. That’s all they do is talk about all the organ the things they’re gonna dismantle.

How are we gonna arrest the child traffickers? I’m sorry. Can we just can I can I kind of, like, get a queuing on? How do we square the circle on queuing on here? How with out a federal — Sheriff?

—

sheriff without any federal cops.

No. The sheriff will don’t write the what what’s

the is gonna break up the child’s trafficker? The

Clairemont people have like, the constitutional sheriffs or something, they have a term of art for what they want sheriffs to be. Right? They want they want them, but this is literally true. They believe that sheriffs are the answer because sheriffs are law and order people who are directly elected by the people. And so that is their vision of law and

order. Like,

who could I wonder why?

I I I’m sorry. I have a joke. I just think it’s worth just saying one sentence that It it is absurd. It is extreme. It is ridiculous.

It’s also scary. It’s also scary. I I just like the it wasn’t that long ago. We had the, you know, one off person that went to the office and where was it Cincinnati or whatever. And, like, we’re gonna have these sorts of things happening again.

Also, just considering how irresponsible the level of commentary is, if there is a trump trial around January sixth going into twenty twenty four election, I don’t know, man. We could be headed for a really a really dark period.

Yeah.

Not not just not just the idea of dot roller elect in Donald Trump, which is extremely dark in itself, but just even the run up to it and the way that this country

I feel like I just need to say though because there’s one good thing about that

is that there are about a thousand people that we’re gonna that we’re gonna be at the top of the list of creating trouble that are already in jail. And so, you know, while I made the comment about how I wasn’t sure, you know, like, I do think that, you know, maybe the prioritization of the shaman was was maybe wrong. Taking out the violent people, that were there on January six has made a difference. Is that a little bit of a chilling effect?

I think it’s made a difference too. I really agree with this. And they say it. Like, it’s in, like, I’ve seen some of their, like, chats that have popped up. It’s like, this is a trap.

They want us to riot. They want us to go in. So, like, But I don’t know once you get into a trial.

Here’s the problem. The only way this goes away is with a public

repudiation of the big lie by

elite Republicans and a repudiation that continues until enough Republicans in, like, in the, you know, on the front lines, believe it too. So long as the big lie exists, Like, that’s the poison tree. Because anybody who said, like, that means that we are living in an autocracy. Right? If the big lie is true, If it’s true that the election was stolen, then Joe Biden is an unelected dictator, and everything else flows logically from that.

You can’t until this is leech out of, like, the body politic, there is no peace. There is no comedy. There is no way in which everybody gets along again. And I don’t think Republicans start to go and do that until they lose really big. And I don’t think they can or will lose really big.

I don’t think it matters. I, you know, again, entirely possible Donald Trump wins while under indictment. That’s just the way the country is made up. We are polarized so heavily that, you know, like landslides just aren’t possible anymore. Like a five or six point election is about as as big as you can get, and that’s on the Democratic side.

Republicans have almost no chance to win a majority, but they don’t need to. Right? I’m saying could we they get within two or three points. That’s close enough, though, win the electoral college.

So one of the things that I’ve it’s always stuck with me is about how the people who store in the capital thought they were fighting for democracy. Right, that they would say this election was stolen. This is seventeen seventy six. This is why I have to show up. This is why I’m here because if you don’t fight like hell, you won’t have a country anymore.

And I think that this idea of the DOJ is, like, weaponized against us. Right? There’s two tiered justice system. It isn’t just a what about. It’s a moral case.

Right? They had on they have their own moral case for why they are correct. Why they are sort of morally correct to pursue this, why Donald Trump is being unfairly targeted. And because I gotta say there is something. That feels, like, I’m I’m glad Trump’s being indicted, and I think we have no other choice.

And I think we’ve all argued about this now for a long time. And I’m I’m comfortable with that. He is the leading contender. Like, he is Joe Biden’s most likely political opponent. And that is also an unprecedented thing.

And I know how it’s landing with Republican voters. This idea that Trump’s being targeted by Joe Biden. And this is the thing that will be hammered over and over again that I think might have some legs with people.

Joe Biden was watching a movie last night,

Oppenheimer. During when

the indictment came down. Very strange.

I I hear you. I know. I agree that that’s how these people feel, but it’s just it’s wrong. And we have to con we continue to, like, like what? I I have to kind of indulge their fantasies.

Like why do we have to continue indulging their fantasies? The grand juries have regular people on there. That decide whether or not these things can go forward. Everyone knows that. Kevin McCarthy knows that.

Jim Scott knows that. Ron DeSantis knows it. Vivek knows it. These people are not fucking idiots. Like, it’s not like they just fell off the turnip truck and they’re confused.

They’ve been watching Steve Vander’s podcast and now they’re run for president and they think that that Joe Biden is orchestrating this attack on

his political opponent, like, like, we’re

a third world country. Like, that’s not what is happening. All these guys know it’s not what’s happening. They’re lying.

Well, they’re lying to

see I know you know all that. I’m just I’m just saying like, I don’t know what we’re supposed to do about that. How are we supposed to be more generous to them and and and more thoughtful about like the perspective that they’re coming from when everyone that speaks to them is is bald faced lying about what’s happening.

Yeah. Although, something just occurred to me that if there is a trial and a verdict going into the general election, the chances of trump being acquitted also are not zero.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. For sure. Which could help him, you think?

I don’t know. The fact that he’s, like, not guilty or hung jury.

And this is why I was not in a champagne popping mode because I think every possible timeline that emerges from where we are today is a bad one.

Except as I

don’t think there’s anything good. And you know, maybe some of them are less bad than some of the others, but we are not at bottom yet. We haven’t gotten to things are as bad as they’re gonna get. Now we’re turning around. This is not a moment where the scales are gonna fall from people’s eyes, and they’re gonna say, geez.

You know what? That guy really is a crook. I voted for him twice, but I this is no good. That’s not happened. That’s not on offer.

And, Boy howdy. It all goes downhill from here.

At bottom. Before we go, can I can I rant about Tom Cotton? Yeah. Go ahead. See what Tom Cotton’s reaction to this one?

It’s this thing that fucking drives me crazy.

This just goes back to my last point about, like, what are we supposed to do? Well, do

you want me to repeat it or do you wanna read it?

Read

it. I want to point out that every time a Republican has won the presidency in this century, only twice, the Democrats tried to stop the certification of that victory. Yet none of them face criminal Charlie Sykes, it’s all the same, Tim. Same same.

Fuck you, Tom Cotton. Like, this is just so fucking crazy. Like, Tom Cotton went to Harvard. He knows better. Like, do do we have pictures of of Barack Obama sitting with Donald Trump?

Helping him with the transition, shaking his hand. Al Gore lost after the Supreme Court had to make a decision. The election was so close. Do we have video of Al Gore conceding responsibly to George w Bush. Do you have any video of people with Al Gore flags?

Storming the fucking capital, spearing capital police? No. None of that shit happened. Donald Trump didn’t do an orderly transition. Donald Trump didn’t concede.

He didn’t congratulate his opponent. He didn’t have the people that worked for the government, work on the work on the transition. Donald Trump’s sick a mob at the Capitol that caused deaths to try to intervene with the transfer of power. Like, like, there, you know, the the fact that Barbara Boxer, you know, didn’t vote to certify the Ohio votes. It’s like bad on you, Barbara Boxer, but this very indictment says at the at the top, this is why Ted Cruz isn’t being indicted.

If you wanna compare Barbara Boxer to something, you can compare him to Ted Cruz and Josh Holly. This is why they are being indebted. You have a right as a senator to take stupid votes based on lies. Right? Like like that is not that is not illegal.

You do not have a right to plot to overturn the government. That’s what Donald Trump is. Tom Cotton knows the fucking difference. The people that work for Tom Cotton know the fucking difference, and they’re putting that out there, and they are culpable. And they are the reason.

Why Donald Trump is winning by forty points in this primary. They’re the reason why he’s allowed to run again, why he hasn’t been convicted. They’re the reason why these voters that Sarah is talking about. Think that the country is being stolen from them and that they’re on the right side. Tom Cotton knows better.

That is fucking wrong. It is not true. And and, like, nobody in the Republican Party on Fox at National View Anywhere in these conservative ink spaces as as willing to say the truth to these people. And I am happy to come debate any of them. None of them will have us on any in any of these places to talk about this.

They sit in their fucking safe spaces and talk about how we have TDS. And it’s insane. Donald Trump should be indicted for this. This it is unprecedented. What he did was treasonous.

And I just I’m just so fucking sick of this. That they can play their word games and like to and get away with it. And like that is the shit that pisses me off way more than like what the

I don’t, you know, what the crazy people are

Well, no one’s gonna top that.

Yeah. We should just leave it there.

Good show, long show. Hey, listen. We went we. Barry Rubin, our boy went and created a audio version of the indictment if you just wanna listen to it. It’s fantastic, really flake an audiobook.

It’s on YouTube. We’re gonna have a link to it right here. Go listen to it, and, hit the thumbs up, subscribe, do all the things. And just get ready. Gerg your loins because it’s gonna be a long, long year and a half in front of us.

Guys, good show, long show. We’ll see you on Sunday.

Makes a little sports analysis, pop culture, and great interviews. And you’ve got the rich Eisenhower Show podcast.

The Jets are bracing the sells into doing hard knocks this year.

Prazing themselves. Look, coaches wanna control the controllables. They want to have a camera crew in the building. You know, I know that they wanna lie low. This is what happens when you go and swing for the fences and get out of Rogers.

Are you kidding me?

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