How to Start a Film Studio in 2023

Welcome back to the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. My name is Sunny Bunch from Culture Editor at the Bulwark. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by Roy Price. Now Roy, is he runs this great substack. I read, price point dot substack dot com, go check it out.

But the reason it’s so interesting, is because, Roy was for many years. He founded Amazon Video. He, what you I you also founded Amazon Studios. Yes. You were

Yes.

Yes. And I I love Amazon Studios. I was just looking back at the that that first run of movies that Amazon Studios did. I remember seeing Shirek in theaters. Loving friendship and theaters.

I like, it that was that was a real, a real interesting time. And we’re gonna talk about kind of, what that might look like today, I think. Roy, thank you for being on the show.

Thanks for having me, Sonny. I’m a frequent listener.

So, well, that’s very that’s very nice of you

to say. So look, here’s here’s why

I wanted to have you on the show. You you put out, on your substack, you had a a a really interesting, essay this week about what it would look like to start a studio today? What what if you wanted to start a studio today, what would you try to do? How would you try to do it? And it’s it’s an interesting question because it does feel like there is a big space in the low to mid budget range.

A twenty four style, or Bloomhouse style studio, and yet we we, have all of these movies coming out that cost a hundred million, hundred fifty million, two hundred million dollars. What what would you If you were looking to start a studio today, again, kind of like you did with Amazon studios. What would that actually look like?

Well, I think first, you have to figure out, you know, what gap in the market you’re filling and what you’re good at. So, like, why does the world need this studio? Cause the world doesn’t per se need another studio that is just gonna make like generic films. So, you have to have a specific identity and plan. And, you know, traditionally, if you think of media brands that have that have started, they’ve followed this pattern.

You know, going all the way back to, Mac Senate and Keystone, you know, pictures or Casa Bank of Records or what you know, you should have a vibe and something that you’re about in bringing to the world. And, if you look at the market today, I would say there are definitely things that are missing. They’re they’re kind of, I’d say, gaps that you can see, and then, and then maybe opportunities in the future that we could speculate about. But, I think probably the most obvious one is Comedy, which has gone from about twenty percent of box office to about six. And to take a step back, by the way, the premise, of course, from my point of view, is that movies are back theatrical is back.

You know, you can see Barbie and Oppenheimer, and a lot of titles actually doing well. And, so I take that as a premise. And then looking at the titles, looking at what everybody is doing. I think, you know, comedy is probably at the core of the opportunity, but I think there are other opportunities around that.

Well, comedy is interesting. I mean, I I, I saw somebody talking the other day, an actor named escapes me, but he was saying, look, comedy comedies are kind of dead at the box office right now because Marvel has eaten up that space. And it’s it’s true. If you look at comedy as a genre, right? It’s been kind of absorbed into we don’t have a lot of pure comedies anymore.

It’s comedy superhero. It’s comedy action. It’s comedy. You know, I I don’t know. Whatever, but it’s the the actual pure comedy space has kind of withered because it’s been absorbed into so much else.

Right. But, you know, we could do like the hangover, tropic thunder, airplane, blazing saddles, like comedies that are actually super funny. I have no there’s no reason to believe that there is not still a huge market for that. And, so I I think that I mean, yes, other movies, like, an action movie, like, everything everywhere should have a sense of humor. And so there are a lot of things that can be somewhat funny.

But I think there’s an opportunity for you know, movies that are more traditionally comedies like a stripes or a flat or a ghostbusters or what have you?

Mhmm. I mean, no hard feelings has done okay at the box office. It it opened

a little

little soft and and has kinda held on.

Yeah. And that’s kind of a really you have to give Jennifer Lawrence a lot of credit for that because, like, I don’t even I don’t really even get the premise.

Alright. So, alright. So the idea the the first idea here is to have an identity for your studio. I mean, I, like, it’s I I feel like that’s the sort of thing that’s easy to say, but hard to visualize and vocalize. I mean, like, when you’re when you’re looking at When you’re looking at the marketplace right now, like yes.

Alright. So there’s the gap for comedies. But, you know, what what market niche would need to be filled, do you think, by one of these, studios, a new studio?

Well, I I think that, you know, that’s the the core of it. I also think that I think I think that’s the number one thing. And then I think there are opportunities in, you know, if you look at action, A lot of it is, tonally, very kind of international and sort of fist catered. Even John Wick, you know, it’s all about, like, the Russian mob and hitman’s bodyguard is, like, in Europe and I I know this is just my instinct and and people can disagree, but I think there’s an opportunity in, like, Just kind of regular American, like, I almost feel like, and I can’t prove this, but I almost feel like, You know, when what was that springsteen album, like, born in the USA or whatever came out, there’s kind of a little bit of an incipient vibe out there that I think is is not being served very much. And we saw it maybe a little bit in top gun I think it’s in the aesthetics of Barbie a little bit.

It’s just kind of very, you know, traditional in a way. And, like, those those, you know, like trucker movies, like smoking the bandit or walking tall, just like, you know, we’re not in bruges. We’re not doing sexy beast in, like, the South of France. We’re, you know, we’re, like, in Texas, and there’s, you know, like, I think there there’s an opportunity to, just do some fun American action stories that, that is out there as well. There’s kind of next door to comedy.

And some of them could be comedies. But, but my instinct is they’re we’re not seeing a lot of that either. And, you know, there’s this whole thing of, like, stuff that, everything everywhere was was taking part of, we just kinda met a modern and and fun and having fun with itself. And I think there’s a lot of stuff down that road as well. I think what is There’s a really fun Japanese movie called gintama that I I recommend that is is fun to see along those lines.

So, you know, what is more difficult is stuff right now, I think, that is, like, super serious. I think this is just not the moment for it. We’ve seen a lot of movies bite the dust over the last year that are just too heavy. Or nostalgic, you know, whether it’s, you know, not to be critical of anyone, but even stuff like, you know, I don’t know, armageddon time or fablements or You know, even even stuff like, nope. I hurt your feelings or something.

Like, I I think I really want something a little more at high energy cinematic fun. Right now, like, that’s a that’s a pretty clear signal. And it’s you don’t wanna overread because you’re making a movie. It’s gonna come out two years. But, but that’s really my sense of the market right now.

So so if you’re starting a studio to get back to your question, I think you wanna focus on this zone that we’re talking about.

Yeah. I mean, I that’s, there there was a point that you made either in this newsletter or previous one that the the range of nostalgia now is so narrow that when you when you say nostalgia, you who’s nostalgia? Right. Whose nostalgia are we talking about? You know, and with the the marketplace as kind of, you know, segmented as it is, how how that actually works, in a, how nostalgia works in a in a new movie is very interesting and very hard to kind of quantify and ex explain to people.

Yeah. I mean, nostalgia feels risky to me because, you know, what you’re nostalgic for may not be what I’m nostalgic for. So you know, if you’re a master, you can probably, you know, like in, you know, the movie, the About Sicily with the theater, the burned down, the famous Italian movie. Cinnamon Feradiso. You know, makes you, nostalgic for, like, Sicily in the fifties or whatever it was.

So, you know, if you’re really great. You can make it work. But in general, I’m not nostalgic for the sixties because I was not, you know, I didn’t live through that. Right? So, you know, that’s that’s a real that’s a real challenge.

And in in general, I don’t I think it’s a tough road. You know, I mean, maybe if we’re gonna do the nineties or something, you know, like, if you look, like, look at, like, wonder years, how many years prior, how much of a look back was that? It’s not usually, like, sixty years, you know, or, like, how many years back was, like, Greece? It’s like ten or twenty years. Anyway, I I worry a little bit about that.

And as I said, you know, talent and quality trumps everything else, of course, but as a guideline, we’ve seen a few trip ups in that zone over the past year.

Well, it it’s interesting too. If you look at, you know, let’s look at a couple of the biggest hits of the of the year so far. Right? Super Mario Brothers obviously is a huge but that’s a that’s a movie that also appeals to people who grew up playing Superyer Brothers in the nineteen eighties or nineties or or aughts or, something like teenage mutant ninja turtles, smaller scale success, but still still it looks like it’s it’s gonna be a pretty decent hint here. And that’s, again, that’s something that appeals to you know, kids, who watched the cartoon in the nineties played with the toys in the nineties.

I mean, that is a that is a a Those are types of nostalgia that seem to work or Barbie. But, I mean, Barbie is, you know, that is a generations —

Right.

— spanning thing, I think.

Yeah. And that’s, like, IP. So I would put that in a different category from, like, societal nostalgia. So you have particular toy or something that people played with, and they’re familiar with, and they like it, and they wanna see the movie. And that does seem to be working so long as you’re you know, keeping it fun and, sort of, you know, playing to the audience that is the fan base.

I mean, obviously, like, Indiana Jones tried to do the same thing, and I I think ran into some, difficulties And, and, I guess, the flash as well.

Yeah. Well, anyway, there’s Oh, well, that, you know, that that me to to the next point in your in your newsletter, which is scope and scale size. Like, the size of these movies has has has certainly gotten out of control on the higher end of things. But even, you know, even something like Babylon, right, or you know, once upon a time in Hollywood is a big success, but that’s a that’s a tough one. That’s a that’s a that’s a, you know, you need two stars and Quentin Tarantino.

And, you know, everything else. I what what should what should studios be looking at in terms of size and scale If you’re looking to again, if you’re looking to get started, you’ve got, you know, I’ve just won the mega millions. I have five hundred million dollars to play with. I wanna start a movie studio. What what are my first five projects budgeted at?

Well, I mean, you know, it does depend how much money you have. So if you have you know, there is this type of movie that is, you know, prestige director, big actor or three and it’s a hundred million or a little more. And, so it’s Babylon It’s Oppenheimer. It’s like Wolf of Wall Street, Scorsese’s new picture, and often these pictures do work, you know, so Oppenheimer worked, Wolf of Wall Street worked, I can’t remember the budget of Amsterdam, but I’m gonna kind of throw it into the same category. I think the budget was a little lower, but You know, it it’s you know, so what you’re saying if you’re making the movie for a hundred is So now you’re you have to gross, like, let’s say, a hundred thirty, a hundred and forty.

So so that’s, like, twice as much as the big short. So the big short, in my opinion, was a super successful phone. Also, everything everywhere was, like, seventy seven. Right. So so we’re saying we’re gonna be almost double everything everywhere in the big short.

Those those are very successful films. I think you’re doing that, you’re either doing that because you don’t care. You you have some of the goal. You know, you’re like, You’re a streaming service and you really wanna win an Oscar, or, like the people who finance, like, wolf of Wall Street, you know, no offense anymore, but, like, some of the people behind that, like, there was some, like, financial scandal behind it blah blah blah. So, like, they didn’t really care.

You know, you’ve gotta have a different sense of risk. If your act surely a real life studio that intends to make money in movies. I think that kind of movie which, you know, will might, you know, you might hear about two or three times a year, is probably not a great idea. It it could be a winner, but probably in the best case scenario where you get a box office of, let’s say, a hundred and fifty, you’re making a very small amount. I think even even Gatsby it would probably, you know, be about breakeven at that level.

So so that’s not really You know, I mean, the opportunity to lose a lot is is pretty significant there because, you know, I mean, what if you gross forty? You know, then you’re really out a lot. So, I think you’re better off, you know, with, you know, everything everywhere was, like, fourteen And, you know, the original John Wick, this is several years ago now, but, it was around fourteen fifteen as well. And I think, well, talk about several years ago, but, like, you know, pulp fiction or reservoir dogs in that zone. Right?

Right.

And you can do a lot of comedies in that zone as well, and you can even kick it up to, let’s say, thirty. And, you know, and and there’s a lot to choose from. I think that, La la land was somewhere between thirty and forty. Mhmm. And, you know, maybe you could get it down to thirty.

And hopefully get it into your zone, for this theoretical, you know, new studio, but but I think at that level where you know, you you break even at, you know, twenty eight forty two at the box office and anything above that. Is is, you know, profit. Those are, like, that You can see that happening. That can work.

Yeah. Let one one thing you talked about, is the economy of scale. Like, how many is so when you’re when you’re making when you’re making movies, you know, you’re you’re better off making ten movies and hoping one or two hit, to make up for the the, you know, the rest that either break even or don’t. What is the what’s the if you’re, again, you’re sitting down. You’ve got, you know, a big, big pile of money.

What is the number of films you’re looking to release a year in the hopes of hitting, you know, breakeven, we get to keep doing this for another year.

I think ten to twelve is a is a good goal. I I think there There are some companies in Hollywood that, you know, they do, like, three And the problem with that is, it’s just very risky. You know, I mean, Shobez is is is kind of like, insurance or something where, like, you know, if you made a bet, that somebody was going to, die before a certain point time. That would be weird and risky. Right?

But if you did that a hundred thousand times, you’d be an insurance company. Right? And you’d you’d have, like, a predictable, very predictable business. And in the movies, if you bet on one, it it’s unpredictable and risky. But if you have ten or twelve, it becomes more predictable.

And I just think, you know, if you have three, I’m not sure it quite gets to the threshold of starting to be a sort of, you know, a business. You know, I mean, It just feels like that it’s a very, very, very concentrated bets at that point. So I I feel like those entities should should probably, like, get together, like, you know, just be part of one entity. Yeah. I don’t understand why they’re independent.

Because it feels like about the right size is at ten to twelve. And traditionally, when people have tried to go above ten to twelve, their quality has has deteriorated. So there aren’t a lot of examples of people like going to forty and really having a lot of great movies come out of it.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Let me I me I wanna drill down onto one thing here just for, for layman audiences. Because I I I try I I myself am a layman, and I try target it at the layman. When when you’re, you’re in in your newsletter, you talk about the difference between just being a production company and being a distributor.

And when you’re a distributor, you know, you you basically have green light power. You can say, we’re gonna make this movie. When you’re a production company, you’re waiting on Warner brothers or Paramount or whoever to sign off, and then you’ve gotta sell it. You gotta sell foreign rights and etcetera, etcetera. Could you explain to folks a difference here between, like, if sitting down, you’re like, alright, I’m gonna I’m gonna make ten movies a year, and I’m gonna distribute them myself.

What are what are some of the challenges there in terms of getting things actually out to people to theaters? To the to the to the viewers?

Well, I mean, let’s say we have a script. We have a actor. We have a director. And we have a ten million dollar budget, and we have ten million dollars. Okay.

Now we have everything we need, you know, to make this movie. However, We want some reassurance that once we put the money into the movie and then we have a movie that we’re then going to be able to receive money back. And that requires distribution. So and for theatrical distribution requires someone to put up money for marketing the film. And so either in scenario a, you are your own distributor and you’re going to do that.

Or, b, you have to go and ask these other people to support you as your partner in that way and and very similar thing for foreign. Right? But in scenario b, you are not really in control. Like, you can’t really green light anything. You know, you’re simply a guy who is going and asking this other guy if you can make your movie and it depends entirely on that person saying yes.

I’ll, you know, take it out to theaters, blah, blah, blah. And it’s a little suboptimal because or it’s I I would say it is. It is not as good because, You know, the more people who get to weigh in, the closer to the mean you’re going to be. The closer to the average decision making process you’re going to be. Right?

Because, You know, your company in theory is going to do well if you have a distinctive point of view that is unique and valuable. Okay. But, if instead that is watered down, Because you have to conform with all these other random people whose approval you require then you’re gonna wind up with a bunch of films that are are less a distinctive representation of, let’s say, your point of view. And and much closer to just, you know, average films. And remember, the the rewards in showbiz do not go to the average.

They go only to the top. So you this whole strategy, the structure that has been set up really undermines the opportunity to be distinctive. Now you could wind up being distinctively bad, like, you know, you could have a horrible run and these these distributors could have saved you from your horrible decisions. But, you know, we’re looking at the other scenario where, you know, you’re you’re on a genius run.

Okay. Well, let’s alright. Let’s assume let’s assume for the sake of argument here that, I’ve got I’ve got the genius talent. We’ve got we’ve got these movies as a neo a neophyte distributor, what are what am I what do I need to do to make sure that these things get into theaters? I mean, is it just going to cinemacon and being like, hey, theater owners.

Look at these great movies I’ve got. You gotta put them in your theaters. Like, how does that actually how does that actually work?

Yeah. You you say, look, I have you know, Scarlet Johansson and and, you know, West Anderson, and here’s what it’s about, here’s the trailer, and we’re supporting it with twenty million dollars of marketing, and and we’re looking to open October seventh to what do you say? And, you know, you’ll you’ll get screens. There’s a little problem right now that some theaters have gone away like, the Sinerama dome, what what was called the arc light at the end in Los Angeles, and the landmark on PECO in Los Angeles. So this particularly is detrimental for what you call the India or artsy.

Segment. So you see pictures like the worst person in the world and triangle of sadness kind of underperform. And I’m not ascribing that entirely to two theaters, but it is, you know, it’s a little bit of an issue right now with particular zone of movie. And so, again, that’s that’s another reason that that zone is is kind of the the laggard, and you you wanna have a movie that is appropriate for, you know, a little less film forum in New York and a little more, you know, AMC AMC fifteen in Century City.

Yeah. Well, I mean, what what is the state of platforming right now? So what what you’re describing, right, is is is kind of platforming. Right? You open in New York and in in LA, in four theaters, and you do sixty thousand dollars per screen if you’re lucky.

And then you you you spread out a little bit it feels like that model has kind of broken a bit in the in the COVID era. I mean, you still see some, success at there with, like, everything everywhere all at once, kind steadily grew. But the that is definitely a segment of the market that feels a little bit weaker now than it did say when I don’t know, like Bulwark Swan was able to get up to a hundred and forty million or whatever that made domestic, you know, after opening in two theaters. Is it is it Is it just a function of that in the audience not being there right now, or is there some other structural issue, that’s why?

Well, I I think in the in the true Indy zone, so, triangle of sadness or whatever. Or, you know, like, Yorgos Landimos has a picture coming up, imminently. You know, I think post COVID were were just starting over. And I think most things seem to be back and functioning. So with the exception of we’ve lost a couple thousand screens in total in the US, including some important ones.

But otherwise, you know, people know where their theater is, and they seem to be going to the theater. So we’ve had some really good weekends recently. And, so it is possible that, a platforming strategy where you just go out to six theaters or whatever, could work. We could see some successes later this year, with some prestige pictures in December. I can imagine that.

And it’s just a little harder because we have some missing screens, to place those, those movies. But I I’m sure people will figure it out somehow.

Yeah. I mean, one one thing you you’ve also talked about is just the decline in award season audiences in general. I mean, movies like tar, which I loved, one of my favorite movies of last year, or Triangle of sadness. I mean, like, you know, movies that movies that are getting award season consideration, but aren’t getting the kind of traditional award season bump at the box office.

Yeah. For sure. I mean, you know, look, the the award shows are viewed by like, twenty five percent, the number of people who used to view them. And so the bump you get from awards attention is just not what it was. So that’s unfortunate, and it’s another thing that sort of militates against that kind of movie, you know, which is why, you know, we might have to wait a season or two for you know, that kind of thing, or really that, you know, certain types of things may really have to go over to streaming or to television or or something.

You know, there there may be things that would have been made fifteen years ago that would not be made, today. It just wouldn’t make sense to make them more theatrical today.

Mhmm.

And I think you’re safer if you do have some you know, bigger element of fun, you know, whether it’s everything everywhere or Oppenheimer or, you know, whatever it is that it makes it a little more cinematic and brings people to to the theater You know, so I I’m not sure you’re gonna see, you know, the English patient, King’s speech, I think that gets into slightly tougher territory. I think Manchester by the sea, I think you would do because it’s a super high quality, but I think, I’m not sure it would do, like, forty five million, which is what it do. When it came out.

Well, I mean, I I you I get the

sense that Netflix is kind of cornering this market. Right? I mean, you’re with your Roma’s, Irish man, power of the dog. Right? That that sort of, like, prestige kind of traditional, all quiet on the western front and another one right there.

Right? Like, you got a ton of Oscar nominations. One one a bunch of technical awards, but would not necessarily be something that you could release in theaters to a mass audience and and hope to. Make your money back.

I mean, you know, there’s an audience for Roma or Western Front. At for sure. They’ve always had a a sort of hostility to theatrical that I don’t totally end stand. I mean, in my opinion, if you release, you know, at Amazon Studios, we released almost every movie to theaters because I think that customers view a movie that, you know, went theaters and, you know, got reviewed and stuff. As, like, a real movie, and something they release straight to TV is television.

You know, it’s different. And they value it differently. They perceive it differently. And, But we’ve never agreed on that.

Yeah. Well, I let’s talk let’s dive into this

a little bit because as I mentioned, you know, Amazon studios, I remember I remember that first, like, real very solid run of movies. You know, and and we’re talking about movies, made for okay budgets, modest budgets with well known directors, like spikely doing Cherac, with stillmen doing love and friendship. You know, Manchester by the sea obviously was a big hit, both commercially, critically award season, wise. And as you say, those all those all go into theaters. They are they are varying levels of success.

But at the very least, it, you know, gets the it gets the the brand and the movies themselves out there when you were looking at the strategy for the studio, you know, you’ve you’ve already got the streaming service prime video. There. You could have put these on streaming directly. Instead, you go for the theatrical route. What was what was your thinking there?

It was really that, you know, customers are gonna value these more if they’re real movies and real movies go to theaters. And, if you wanna win awards, I I think if you skip theaters, it just really reduces your chance, not to zero. But, particularly at the time, I I think it it, you know, you’re better off going to theater. So so it made sense in almost all cases to go to theaters. And, you know, for us, we were Yeah.

We wanted to have an original movie program, but within a budget constraint. And so we were focused on doing, you know, special films, that had, you know, were kind kind of in that indie Prestige segment, and that became, like, part of our part of our brand at the time. And, so that’s that’s the area that we were that we were focused on. So we yeah. So Manchester and the Big Sick and some others

you know, the neon demon. I’m I just pulled up the list again because I was I that that two thousand sixteen run is is, I mean, it’s just it’s wild to look back at Patterson, another another, night really, really frustrating.

A likely picture in there.

The handmaiden part ten whoop. I mean, that’s, you know, that’s that’s a and, again, it seems very it seems very This the sense I get, again, just looking back at this list now and thinking about it is, you know, look, you’re you’re looking at films made by authors, with name recognition within a pretty tight budget range, you know, I don’t know what, five to twenty million, something like that.

Mhmm.

I mean, that seems to be like what you’re what you’re talking about now for if you are going to start a studio, if you if somebody came to you with a, you know, Here’s a big pot of money. This is this is the sort of thing we should be making.

Yeah. Except that now, Yeah. You know, one year, we had six pictures it can. It was we were definitely in that zone, you know. And what I think I would do differently today, and, you know, somebody else would have a different plan.

You know? Is many more of those movies would be trying to go after that, hangover, drop it under vibe, because it’s not on the market, and it’s great, and people really want it. I think it’s the thing that’s missing. And And some of those movies would have to be made at lower budgets or or they wouldn’t be made. Some of the, you know, if it’s too talky or it’s too much of a downer, I I just think it’s it’s not for this moment.

You know, you may to wait a year, you know, maybe people will come around, you know, but, you know, the, like, like, tar and stuff, it’s It’s it’s just not not the moment for that kind of thing. So, yeah, I think a much

Unless, unless, of course, you’ve got Christopher Nolan making Oppenheimer. I mean, Oppenheimer talking a little bit of a downer, and that movie is is blowing up. But, I mean, that’s

There is a special Christopher Nolan exception. And, you know, listen. With every rule or guideline or whatever opinion you have, you know, tomorrow, you know, Margaret Robbie and Chris Bernolan walking, obviously, whatever. It’s all good, you know, or we’re probably gonna move forward. Yeah.

The, I it’s I I wanna

I wanna just, focus a little more on the the Amazon studios versus, Amazon video distinction here because I’m I’m I’m fascinated by the business of streaming. In many ways, it doesn’t make any sense to me at all. And I I don’t understand but in otherwise, it makes a lot of sense. It makes perfect sense. My big question for you is when you were looking at what worked for Amazon video in terms of acquiring and keeping subscribers.

What I mean, what were you guys looking for? Was it a was it new original series? Was it, did did films perform well as acquisition, materials or, like, I I when I I asked this because when I look at Netflix and I see them spending two hundred fifty million dollars or whatever on red notice. I it hurts my head because I I just can’t understand how doing that gets you or retains you as many subscribers as making, like, ten, ten hour seasons of television. You know?

Yeah. Well, you know, again, the the stuff that makes the most money gets the most attention Hollywood is the is are the top projects. And, so that’s why those have outsized value and can command you know, like, even knives out or something, they’re you get a big deal for that because because people are gonna pay attention to it and they’re gonna watch it. And, so TV and movies are both important. They’re about equally important.

I I think If you had to choose, you’d you’d take a repeating TV show over a over a movie because it repeats. But, but sometimes those expensive things can be some of your most efficient money because, you know, it’s very high profile and everybody watches it, and it attracts a lot of new customers. You know, it there’s nothing worse There’s nothing less valuable than being solid. Solid. Pretty good.

Okay. All of these are it can be translated as like zero value. Okay. Because you you get zero new customers, zero publicity. It’s just like forget it.

Pass. Moving on. You know, the stuff that matters is high profile. People talk about it. It wins awards or it’s just a huge hit.

You know, and that’s what makes a difference at the end of the year. When you look back, you know, what drove our growth this year? It’s that stuff. And the other stuff is mostly, you know, turns out to be kinda replaceable.

Well, you mentioned you mentioned solid being worth nothing. And I wanna I wanna loop back to something we had we had touched on very, very quickly, but didn’t didn’t get to to drill down on, and and that’s horror. Hor horror movies feel like the eternal, low hanging fruit. You know, every year, you see, ten or so, you know, five million dollar horror films make thirty or forty million dollars at the box office. So not enormous hits, but, like, big enough to to be profitable.

But a point you make, that I think is very smart that people don’t focus enough on is that if you make, a very solid, you know, seven point o on IMDB, seventy percent fresh on Rotten tomatoes, five million dollar horror movie, that’s five million dollars you’ve lost. Because you can’t put it in theaters and get people to show up. You you’re not you’re not gonna make that money back on VOD. What are what are some of the risks and rewards in this space? Because, again, I feel, like, I constantly feel like it’s underappreciated, but maybe it’s just actually kind of a overfilled?

Well, I mean, my feeling is that, Between Jason Blum and a twenty four, you know, you you’re gonna be certain line. You know, in the horror, you know, for the horror stuff. And, it’s also, as I said, you know, just each each to, you know, you should just do what you’re good at. And, I focus less on that and focus more on comedy. But, you know, each to his or her own.

But I I do think the Blum House and a twenty four are really strong in that area. And I think that the economics of horror over the past couple of years have been so good that in the next few years, we’re just gonna see a ton of horror movies. And so I worry about the segment a little. I could be wrong. You know, but also if we get back to brand, you know, I think that all studios these days should really be a brand.

And I think eight twenty four in Blumhouse have had some success at, you know, developing themselves as a brand that matters to audiences, in different categories. So eight twenty four is kinda indie with some more but and Blumhouse, basically, horror. But I think, you know, if one were to start something new, It probably don’t wanna be in in the horizon because that’s kinda taken. But let’s say we’re doing a kind of more rambunctious comedy sometimes with some indie feeling, you know, you’d have to ask whether this horror thing, like, fits into that. And it may or may may not.

Yeah. One thing you

had mentioned in, a previous newsletter is having a sensitivity to the political moment. So just you regardless of which side you come down on, you just have to be aware of it. Do you think that plays at all into the state of comedy or, you know, what what people feel comfortable making?

Yeah. There seems to be some relationship there. But I think at the end of the day, you really have to prioritize making, you know, great movies that people wanna see. That, like, you have to take the audience as it actually is in real life and do things that are funny that people laugh at. And, I do think you have to be conscious of the fact that sometimes people get tripped up you know, one one way or the other other politically.

And, you know, don’t just ignore it. You probably have to be conscious of it and, you know, try to avoid that because that would be bad. Yeah.

You know? Easier said easier said than dot always surprised what gets people what gets people tripped up these days. So you you can never be sure. Well, that was, that was pretty much everything I wanted to ask. I’m try I’m trying to think here there was anything else.

But but, but I nothing is coming to mind. I always like to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked. If you think there’s anything folks should know about the state of filmmaking state of indie streaming whatever. I mean, we’re we’re what do you think, folks should know that we haven’t talked about here?

No. You know, I think it’s a I think it’s an exciting time because after a sort of boring couple of years, you know, I think right now the argument for movies is strong. And and there are specific things to do that kind of aren’t being done. So there’s a clear opportunity. And so I think it’s an exciting time.

The I I do think we have to think a little bit about you know, how do we keep the sort of indie part of the business, healthy? Particularly for, like, maybe first time directors and stuff like that, because you you do need, you know, to have Greta Gerwig create Barbie, you have to have Francis Haw as well, you know, several years ago. So you have you have to have a market for that. You have to have opportunities for that. And, so I I think some thought has to go into, you know, what’s happening with this sector are we gonna bring these theaters back to life?

Does it make sense to, for somebody to buy them or, like, what’s going on with all of with all of that. I think that’s it would be interesting to see some good thinking in that in that zone.

Yeah. Do you think there’s any chance? That, you know, one of the studios, either Netflix I mean Netflix has already bought a a handful of theaters, but, you know, as we as we discussed, they don’t really love theatrical, but, like, Amazon or or somebody like that actually picking up some of these chains and making them, a little more a little more viable and friendly to this sort of film?

It’s possible. I I don’t think it’s irresistible, though. You know, I mean, if you were sitting in Seattle at Amazon contemplating, you know, various deals you could make on behalf of the company. I’m not sure that one gets to the very top of the list. You know?

A lot of options. I wanna lose

a bunch of money on theaters. Yeah.

I mean, what’s, I mean, how much difference is it really gonna make to your movies? You know, if you owned AMC or Landmark, like, maybe a little five or ten percent, maybe five. So I I’m not holding my breath on that one.

Yep.

Alright. Roy, thank you very much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Again, it’s the price point substack, you should check it out price point dot substack dot com. I’ll link to it in my newsletter.

If you enjoy my newsletter, I’m sure you will enjoy price point. Thanks. Thanks again for being on the show.

Thanks, Sunny. I’ll see you on Twitter.

I’m I’m always there. My name my name is Sunny Banchai. I’m culture editor at the Bulwark. And I will be back next week with another episode of The Bulwark goes to Hollywood. You guys then.

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Is it weird having a million things to talk about? And the only thing he wants to talk about is bravo.

Yes. And it’s always weird. It’s like when I went to the White House correspondence dinner and thought that this was my chance like, to make a change, and they were like, it will enough about change. Standable. And then I had so many questions for Howie that had nothing to do, and he was So scandal.

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