How ‘The Northman’ Transported Us Back in Time
On this week episode I’m pleased to be joined by Simon Abrams, author of the gorgeous new book The Northman: A Call to the Gods. In it, we discuss how the book came about, some of the fascinating tidbits he picked up while interviewing cast and crew of the viking epic, and how Robert Eggers helped transport audiences back to both a different time and a different mindset. If you haven’t seen The Northman on the big screen, you really should: it’s monumental in every sense of the world. Folks who live in New York City will have a chance to do just that at the Museum of the Moving Image this Sunday: there’s a double feature of The Northman and Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, which Eggers cites as an inspiration for his Viking epic. Sandwiched between the showings will be a book signing. So if you like what you hear here, head over to get a copy of the book! And make sure to share this episode with a friend!
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Welcome back to the Bulwark Coast Hollywood. My name is Sunny Vonage from Culture Editor at the Board. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by Simon Abrams. Now, Simon is the author of the Northman, a call to the Gods, and I when I when I was reading the book, I actually sent him a DM. I said, I your book is too pretty for me to take notes in.
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Which is not a problem I usually have. It’s it’s a it is a it is a nice insight edition, hardcover, big you know, coffee table size kind of lots of lots of great pictures. And again, I just I couldn’t bring myself to market up. So thanks thanks to you and your publisher for sending me a copy, so I can talk about it. But good to have you on the show, Simon.
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Well, thank you for having me for starters. And, yeah, the layout of that book, which was designed by editor John Foster and Chris Prince, the latter of whom I worked with on another book for Insight, which was a book about Guillermo del Toro, the devil’s background. And they’re exceptional in terms of laying it out and designing that stuff. But all due credit as well should go to some of the amazing people whose material we were able to feature in that, like, the costume designs of into Mueller and production designer Craig Lather up the storyboards, some of which that director Robert Egerst did. Some really stunning concept art set photos.
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And it’s it’s it’s it’s the kind of stuff that, like, really helps to paint a very vivid picture of how exceptional it is to see the movie has so much of that stuff in it because, you know, reading the script initially, I was approached by Chris, my editor for the deltour book to do the project since I’ve done that book before, and I knew how to do this type of book. And he asked me what I thought and I read the script and we get to a very key scene at the end. And if you see in the movie, I’m sure you can guess what it is. And but, like, it’s it’s I’m reading this script and I’m just, like, didn’t actually film that? Did they?
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Did they didn’t actually do that? And then I watched the movie, and I was like, there it is. There’s the there’s the scene. And it’s like, it’s a amazing to see just how much of this, like, really I don’t know. I I had to not describe it.
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Just this kind of engrossing and and very singular movie is is on this screen, you know?
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Yeah. Well, let’s I let’s talk a little bit about the actual process of writing it.
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Yeah. We actually I had been approached I’m trying to think what the timeline here basically, they were they had already finished the fill and at least they mostly finished it. They were still working on edits, and I think they might have even been I’m trying to think there were reshoots and I’m trying to think what the timeline is of that. But I had access to work in progress of the film, which I watched a couple times during the the making of the movie, and it was a fairly complete version of the film. So by the time I was approached, What was interesting is they weren’t initially sure whether I could actually see the movie or not.
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And I think even Anja Taylor Joy and some of the the we were like, you’ve seen it before we have. And I was like, how about that? But I had been I’d I’d gotten to see a a a a a fairly polished and and, you know, you know, professional looking version of the film, which at that point, it was fairly clear that this, you know, the movie was basically what it was by that point, you know?
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Yeah. So, I mean, if you haven’t seen Northman, you should. It’s it’s I think it’s on Amazon Prime right now. On Prime Video. You can watch it there if you have Prime Video or or you can rent it or you can go see it at the museum of moving image.
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There’s gonna be a screening of that and shadows of forgotten the ancestors. We can we’ll talk about that in a second too. But the in between the two showings gonna be a signing of the book, so you can pick up a nice copy. The book, Simon will sign it for you. You can give it to your favorite Northman fan for a nice Christmas present.
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It is again, it’s a very handsome looking book and and would make a great gift. But the the the the the actual it’s it’s funny. You you mentioned it being in kind of final polished shape. One of the things that you talk to the to the director about Robert Eger’s, he he has a a pretty unique style of shoe Right? At least by modern, you know, big blockbuster movie standards.
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And this isn’t a you know, it’s not a two hundred million dollar Transformers movie but it is a ninety million dollar Viking movie. You don’t get a you don’t get a lot of
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those. To for sure, the approach that he had his cinematographer copywriter, his regular cinematographer, Jared Blaschke, used is a very unique kind of single camera approach where rather than going for coverage where you have multiple camera shooting at once. Jaren is actually shooting all the action in the scene. And the fact that it was a big budget film was part of the challenge, but I think that was also one of the reasons why star producer, Alex Skarsgaard, was wanting something like that because he recognized in both the witch. I think it was mostly the witch that sold him on it.
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But because he and his fellow producer Lars Newton or Newton, sorry, were were really they really loved the results that they got with the witch I think it it they knew that that singular approach would get, you know, interest more than just, like, results because, like, they had been thinking about doing a Viking movie. And we’re wondering, like, how come no one’s ever done this right? Or how how come no one’s ever someone that actually feels like it’s true to the spirit of this time period or these characters or, like, it feels like the real deal, basically. And one of Agro’s kind of hallmarks is he does so much research And I think that that’s partly also because, like, he’s always trying to think in terms of like how to get something that, like, no one else that that feels like unique. And I think that the approach that he he does where they film it like that, it was initially, if I’m recalling these early production diaries, I remember seeing that, like, that approach was not necessarily the most intuitive or the easiest fit with the production of that size, but they’ve got wind of it and they adjusted And the results are kind of gorgeous, and there’s just multiple scenes where, like, especially once you know how challenging lighting for one camera is, especially given that like there are a lot of cramped indoor scenes you know, fitting some of these cameras into these little, like, yard sized buildings and things.
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It’s a it’s fascinating to find out because, you know, like, it’s single source lighting. It’s a giant crane. It’s, you know, a tiny room. And there’s just so any details in so many of the scenes interior and exterior. So, like, it’s it’s a real balancing act.
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And the fact that it was like a big budget action movie, I think just makes even more It really makes it even more unique because honestly, there really isn’t anything comparable to it. Like, I know everybody thought of it in terms of like, oh, know Hamlet. I know Conan and the Barberry, and I know these these, you know, understandable acknowledged influences, but, like, you just look at the way that they made this and the harder you look at, you’re just like, how did why what this like, it’s almost like they created, like, whole little world just for themselves. And I think one of the things that helped to translate that to the screen was that one camera approach really because it created, like, you’ll just look at any single scene and you’ll you’ll realize just how few times they cut or, like, how few times they, like, pieced together the action through multiple shots and you just realized that, like, there was a lot of care and a lot of just you know, attention to what you’re looking at here. And it’s very easy to gloss over because it is like a a very dense narrative and you’re focused on the dialogue and the way characters look and interact with each other.
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But, like, god, once you just if you just look or once you it’s it’s one of those movies and when you rewatch it, you’re just like, wow. That’s shot lasted a lot longer and has this, like, really dreamlike effect. And I’ll do credit to Jared and and Robert for getting that because that’s It’s something honestly. You know? Yeah.
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I
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mean, it it it the the takes are long without feeling showy, which is a which is a which is I think an important element to kind of creating that realism that that that draws you in there. You know, I mean, where I think we’re all used to the big oneer at this point. Right? The big, you know, kinda one take. We’re gonna do a lot of things.
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We’re gonna move around. A lot. We’re gonna and this movie kind of has that. I mean, like, the assault on the the the the Berserker assault on the the the little town is is, like, kinda like that particularly. In the beginning that you it it does doesn’t jump out at you as such, which is which is nice.
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The when you were there there’s one little Wait. Wait. Let me ask for a couple interesting tidbits that you picked up in your interviews because half half half or so of the book is interviews that you can conducted with the director, some of the stars, the writer. So what what were some of the things that you learned while you while you were talking to them about about the the movie? I
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learned a lot just in terms of Viking history because I I really wanted to interview a a couple of the the research experts that they went to. So we have two actors in there where I spoke with Neil Price and Johanna Friedrich’s daughter who were two of the three main people they went to for for Viking history. And because I didn’t wanna look like an asshole asking them questions like that, I I had to do a little reading of my own. I read some of Neil’s book or one of his books about the the Vikings. And I kind of did a little reading before speaking with Johanna as well.
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And in both cases, I just realized, like, there is a real there are a lot of gaps in the history of the Vikings in terms of, like, what we have remaining in terms of artifacts. And therefore in terms of a timeline and a clear understanding of what daily life was like. And I think something that very much informs the movie and its blurring of the lines of fantasy and reality is for that the spiritual aspects of the story where whether it’s, you know, this kind of, like, undead dweller that he fights to take his sword or, you know, the witch or the the to sear or the various characters that are, you know, fairly supernatural. These elements were part of everyday life or at least according to some of the recorded Saga Viking Saga’s and the Saga’s vary from historic sagas to, like, oh, yeah, my uncle was a drunk. And also, he might have, you know, flown off to val valour Like, they have these these weird elements that are not terribly consistent.
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And I think the fact that, like, you can see a a deep respect for the gaps in our historic knowledge in the movie. Because the movie is very much, I think, about that. It’s very much about, like, the the negotiating process of what is history at this point and, you know, seeing how, like, a lot of the the worries and the concerns that these characters have are very much a product of the fact that, like, Vikings were basically very much living in a society based on their own might It was a very unstable society. They were literally living for a while before going to Iceland. Under a volcano where, like, the ash could, you know, kill you.
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And it’s It’s a very precarious position because the tribe leader one minute could be just toppled next week by, you know, his his brother or his brother-in-law, and it was just very much a whoever, you know, can hold the hold the position longest gets it. And there’s just there’s so much detail about that and about how, like, that feeds into the anxieties as well as the the spiritual questions that they had that I think is baked into not only the plot here, but in terms of the the details But it’s also just a fairly straightforward hamlet riff. So there’s a lot of elements of Conan. There’s a lot of elements from other movies that inspired it, like throne of blood and Yanch goes to close-up, Conan, the Varvarian, of course. And a few other, the Virgin Spring.
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But there’s just there’s also a very culturally specific, I think, concept of or a really question about, like, what what what do we know about the Vikings? And how, like, basically, this character who ultimately goes off on this very ambiguous hero’s journey It it lets you to to read it in several ways, I guess, I wanna say. So I appreciated that ambiguity and the more detail I I I found out about it and what where that came from, the more I was just like, god, I I didn’t even see a a quarter of until I started doing this book, you know?
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Yeah. Yeah. You’ll definitely come across a lot of interesting stuff in here. I I was fascinated by a lot of the the details and and and all that. I when I among them, the fact that Alexander’s CarsGard, you know, I guess I never really thought about it, but Alexander’s CarsGard is basically
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of
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this area. He grew up in this region and was was, you know, his family is from here. And in the I I think it’s the forward of the book. He tells an interesting interesting story about his own kind of personal connection to to this this land.
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Yeah. He he very much wanted to do justice by something that he had never ever seen in movies before because of that personal connection you’re talking about with, like, you know, how for him, it wasn’t just a matter of, like, national pride. It was it was a matter of, like, well, how come I don’t see this type of, like, culture basically or this kind of heritage and like, it wasn’t even like a political thing. It was just like, you know, like, you watch stuff like, there’s even that Vikings TV show. I forget the name.
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I think it’s just called like Viking. And — Bikings. Yeah. — and there’s there’s stuff like that where it’s just like it’s probably fine for what it is, that it’s not what somebody like, if if that’s your background, it’s not gonna do it for you. So I think it was interesting because, like, very much wanted to do more than that.
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So Yeah. He
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again, great great some nice little tidbits. Ethan Hawk also has a preface and there’s a interact action from the director and and the screenwriter whose name I have I’ve tried to nail down the pronunciation of, but I’m gonna ask you here in live on squad cast. Is it is it shum? Yeah.
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That’s how that’s the process I’ve come to. Okay.
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Yeah. Because it’s not s j o n. It’s but it’s it’s Sean. Sean. But it’s but it and and an Icelandic novelist in screenwriter who worked with eggers on getting that kind of very Icelandic quality.
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How did how did those two hook up? And how did they kind of then hook up with Skarsgard to bring this whole thing together. I’m
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thinking it basically weird least starts with Lars von Trere because Lars von Trere worked with Sean on to answer in the dark. Sean did the libretto, I think they call it, for dancer in the dark. And that’s how he I think that’s how he met York. And he was at a dinner party that York was hosting. And that’s where she introduced Sean to Robert Eggers.
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This was, like, right after the witch, I think. And she’s, like, oh, I think you guys would get along really well. Your your work complements each other and you if, you know, like, you know, she was kinda like a a a platonic matchmaker in that way. And then after they had some fairly, you know, they hit it off at the party and they they kinda exchanged their respective works. I think he showed him the witch, and Sean showed him one of his fantasy novels, which have this really eerie hard to pin down tone and and kind of they’re fascinating for that reason, but, like, they immediately were just like, we should do something to other, and they didn’t really think of it until, like, he had Egerst had already spoken to Skarsgard.
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And I think after that, he basically approached Sean about, like, rewriting and, like, reworking their their script and, you know, was the primary screenwriter if I’m understanding it right, but Sean really brought his brought a lot to the to to what Eggers already had, you know. Yeah.
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There’s there’s there’s very interesting little tidbit in here that I
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don’t I don’t wanna
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I don’t wanna I don’t wanna wanna, you know, overstep here and and pick out my favorite scene in in the movie. But my favorite scene in the movie is the the the I don’t know. Viking Quidditch. Whatever whatever that
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And that liquor thing.
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Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I I know a lot of people really like that scene as well. It’s fantastic like wonderful kind of very foreign and primordial yet also familiar and and and, you know, kind of understandable sequence, but that almost didn’t make it into the movie.
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Right? Yeah. It’s a it was a very hard film scene to to film for starters. There’s also no x stant sport call, like, the the choreography for that, they entirely had to make up. Nat liquor is not something that is still played.
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It’s I tuned a bunch in the the the sagas, just in terms of, like, sometimes there’s, like, a fairly standard scene at, like, a a festive like like, a party almost. And, like, they they will be playing Nat liquor in the background. But, like, it’s a it’s you know, it’s not an easy scene to to put together and like finding the location for that scene was really tough because they needed something that they could get a full view of the the pitch, basically. And finding that especially in that part of Ireland where they shot was super tough and it’s it’s kind of amazing also detail that I always love about that scene is that this isn’t probably something that they’ve struggled with, but I just find it I can’t I I can’t imagine it being easy casting people who are taller than Alex Garsgard. And several in that scene are.
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It’s not just like one or two of them. There’s like at least three to five guys there that are like, oh yeah, your six foot you know, two or three or I don’t know. I I remember, but, like, there are several that are, like it’s like, oh, yeah. This guy is, like, six six. This guy is seven one.
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This guy is it just says, like, what? How? Why did you And it’s like, it’s not like camera tricks or anything. It’s like, they’re just big big dudes in every in every way. And it’s it’s it’s to me, especially re watching knowing that, I was just like, Jesus Christ.
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These guys are massive. And the fact that you can’t break with that camera, one camera for the choreography, which is just so fast, you know? Like, it’s it’s not it’s not an easy scene to do. And I I ink. I’m trying to remember how many days they took, but it was like that I think my might have been their most challenging to to shoot in terms of single set pieces.
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It was it was a it’s a tough one. Yeah. And in
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the book, you see, Eggers talked several times about how he just he wanted to take it out because he doesn’t like sports. He’s not sports guys. He
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— Yeah. — that’s super
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interested, which is a weird like, I I I get it. I mean, I I can understand that. But, you know, I assume he’s also not like a rape and pillage guy. So, you know, I I feel like it’s a I feel like that’s still, you know, that’s you can you can still work that in there. Sure.
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I
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think, though, with the details that he wanted to do. There were stuff that, like, basically, they were trying to negotiate what was essential in terms of the audience expectations as well as what was authentic to that period. And I think Sean really talked him into it because it was like, they this is a normal staple of the Viking Saga. And it made sense in that way, plus it adds like an extra action set piece. So I think it it just it made sense.
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And I I think honestly his his dislike of sports aside, I think he he he knew that. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
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I this is one of the first movies that got shot during the pandemic, during the I’m certainly one of the the first big movies, you know, first big productions with lots of people, you know, moving moving sets and and that sort of thing. What was it what what did he what did the director Robert Eggers and the and the rest of the crew kind of make of that whole situation, aside from just making the best of it and, you know, getting it getting it all done? It
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was tough because I know they had before they even start did they wanted to do it in Iceland? A lot more of the principal photography in Iceland. And I think because it was something like a five month break, there were some, as you said, incidental benefits. Like, production designer Craig Walthrop was building like a a house where they the roof itself had to have, like, spores or turf put into it, and it wasn’t gonna be ready in time for a normal shoot start time. But five months later, they returned to beset, and it was it sprouted.
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It was completely covered in this turf because, you know, Ireland with rain and, you know, from something like from March to September. So it was or October, something like that. And it was it was basically in that time, you you had, you know, the grass grew on that roof. And this likewise, I think what’s interesting is that, like, they Eggers had to, for example, like, he had to use that time productively, so he was, like, fleshing out even more historic boards and What was incredible to me is that, like, they were otherwise able to, like, keep everybody together. Like, there was no question about, like, oh, yeah.
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Well, this guy has gotta move on or that guy has to do. And it’s it’s kind of remarkable to me for that reason partly because it’s just they were able to adapt so well. And I think in some ways, there’s shift to Ireland, the early fairly early on shift to Ireland, was a a good example of how, like, their adaptability was at least partly dependent on finding the right people to do that. Like, you know, Naomi listed the location manager who he interviewed. She had worked on and I think she is still working on Game of Thrones for House of Dragon.
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And she I love her. I wish we had more of her in the book because I love her interview so much. And she is such a character and she’s so funny and he just talked about how, like, oh, I know Ireland very well. I I know exactly where to shoot for this for that. I know where you want for this view, and it’s like, she’s just a great example of how, like, you use the the the change, basically, and they lead into that.
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I know that, like, Linda Meurer and her team And, you know, they they all basically had to use that time. And in some ways, it was, I guess, in that sense, not to be polyanish about it, but it was kind of a mixed blessing. Or blessing in disguise even. Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean, it’s was a tough time. I know several shoots that were going on there and everyone was just going crazy. It was a it was a crazy crazy time Let’s talk a little bit about the the screening on Sunday, so I don’t know anything about shadows of forgotten ancestors. I don’t I don’t they’re not not familiar with it.
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Why is this a movie that you wanted to pair with the North Bend, and why was AGGRESSO excited that you got a I think you got a thirty five
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millimeter print. Right? We did. And Well, I had written originally for the book a couple of sidebars that we wound up cutting for space. I mean, the margins for this were so tight that we had to narrow down a lot of the interviews.
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But I done a sidebar of about I think nine films that inspired eggers and that he uses reference points to different people like the custom designer or Jared or others and What was interesting about that is when we cut that, I was like, I wanna do something with that though because I watched or in some cases rewatched like thrown of blood or virgin spring like these movies. And I was just like, some of the ones that aren’t already known, deserve to be seen, and they It’s, you know, this seems like a great opportunity. And while I would never knock the idea of showing, like, Conan the Barberion because it’s a fun movie or, like, some of the other stuff that, like, I think, in Los Angeles, at the American Cinematek, they had a a a very nice retrospective for the North which was really cool. It’s like, I wanted to show something that was a little off the beaten track, stuff like the fall of Ultra, which is like a Gangest Con movie, or the twenty thirteen hard to be a God, which is just It’s such a stunner. It’s such a beautiful film.
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And I love the reason that we wouldn’t show that was because the Museum of the Movie Image had showed it to recently. We had originally talked about showing Conan and I would’ve been absolutely fine with it. Conan’s, you know, Good choice, but shadows have forgotten the ancestors is not only something that, like, I feel like, is a unique film to see It’s just a gorgeous film. It’s a it’s a a Ukrainian based on a Ukrainian folktale set in the Carpathian mountains, And it’s kind of like a folktale romance about a doomed romance that, like, It’s also involving, like, a sort of vampire like character, as you might imagine, based on the location, you know, the Carpathia mountains. And it’s by the great director, Sergei Paraginov.
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I’m butchering a name. I’m sorry in advance to Daniel Berwick he listens to it who has done a lot of work with Parag enough films. But he’s a very interesting filmmaker who’s probably best know now for the color of Palmer Granite, which I think the Criterion collection has. And this is, I think, his first or second feature, shadows of forgotten ancestors. And you know, it’s not an easy film to see, and I was just so stoked to to show it because the parallels between the two films are are really striking.
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They’re it’s not like a a very one to one literal, like, series of parallels, but like, the romance between these two characters, the sense of, like, being bound to cultural responsibilities and the way that robots and you know, one’s understanding of not only family, but like, you know, your role in that society works I think they’re very sympathetic, and they they they have a lot of interesting parallels. And I think of the movies, I I watch for that sideboard, I was especially delighted because I had wanted to see shadows of forgotten answers for a while now, but like, I just never got around to it. And just finally walking off, she’s like, holy holy shit. This is amazing. This is just like a stunning movie that like has such Like like the Northland has such depth to it and it’s such a a a beautiful resonant movie that like is not only just gorgeous to look at, Like, it just it seems like the kind of movie that each time you were to watch it, like, it would become a a different movie or a deeper movie even.
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And and I feel the same way about the Northman. So, like, seeing them together is gonna be such a treat because, like, you know, like you said, the Northman is already on streaming, and maybe people have already seen it in theaters. But, like, I feel like for an event like this, I obviously wanna give people extra value for their dollar. But, like, I just wanted to get them something that, like, is gonna make this, like, through the book, like, something that’s, like, gonna make them see even more into the film. And I think this is a a great choice for that.
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Yeah. So that screening again at Sunday, November twentieth, two thirty is when the I think that’s when the the Northman reading is and then the — Yeah. — the shadows of forgotten ancestors after that. You can buy the book, get it signed in between. You should do that.
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Make sure to pick up a copy of the book. And museum of a museum of the moving image that’s in Queen’s. Right? Yes. The story
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of Queen’s. Okay. So it’s in
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if you’re if you’re in the New York Metropolitan area, go check it or fly there. I mean, I don’t know. You can take a bus to train whatever. Go go go check out the screening and signing. I always like close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked, if you think there’s anything folks to know, either about your book, the making of your book, the movie itself, you know, what what your what what did I fail to ask in this half hour discussion?
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Oh, no. No. That was I mean, I would just mention as an added incentive to pick up the book, we have a preface by Ethan Hawk. And it really is something that, like, even if I were involved, if I were to just pick this book up, I And this has you know, it’s not me doing it, but, like, just the layout and the design of it is just something that I’m really happy and proud to be associated with because the folks at Insight, John and Chris, like, they do they do damn good work at that and just seeing it all in conversation with the text especially and with the interview material. It’s very exciting because it’s one thing to describe some of the stuff, and it’s another to not only have, like, images from the movie, but images from, like, what the movie, you know, their the storyboards and the concept art was and having that all in one place and being able to pour over it is special, you know.
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Yeah.
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It really again, it really is a a a beautiful looking book. And it and and Simon’s right. I mean, like, the the the stills are great. Stills everybody loves stills. And the set photos are great too.
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Everybody loves set photos, but, like, there’s a lot of, you know, design art and that sort of thing in here that you don’t really you don’t necessarily get a chance to see too often. So, definitely, if you if you enjoyed the movie, you should you should really consider making it up. It’s a it’s a fascinating thorough glimpse into into its making. So strong recommendation and make sure you go check out the screening if you haven’t seen it already or if you have. I’ve seen it in I’ve seen it both on my TV and in a theater.
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I will tell you it’s better in a theater because bigger and the sound is
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better. Absolutely. It’s
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amazing how that works out, you know. But whatever. I’m not I’m not the boss of you guys. I Sunny bunch. I’m culture editor at The Bulwark, and I will be back next week with another episode of The Bulwark goes to Hollywood to see you guys at.
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Get an inside look at Hollywood with Michael Rose and bomb. Let’s get inside Debra and Whoa. If you have to choose between true blood, dare double to do again. Partially because the Marvel series feel finished to me because we got canceled when we thought we were gonna have more. Whereas true blood, we did get to wrap it up.
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I knew that we were wrapping it up. I could say goodbye. To everyone. I stole something from the set. I know I didn’t get to steal anything from our daredevil set.
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Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum, wherever you listen.