Support The Bulwark and subscribe today.
  Join Now

How ‘Orphan: First Kill’ Beat Expectations

September 29, 2022
Notes
Transcript

David Coggeshall, the writer and co-producer of Orphan: First Kill, joins Sonny this week to talk about the making of the legacy sequel, the difficulties and opportunities presented by shooting in the midst of the pandemic, and the theatrical vs. streaming debate. 

And if you haven’t watched Orphan: First Kill, you can check it out now on Paramount+ or rent it on VOD; I put a spoiler warning up before we got to talking about the plot of the film in-depth, but you should watch it anyway. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend!

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:02

    This episode is brought to you by Smart Food, the sweet salty snack you need this holiday season, air pop popcorn, tossed in delicious white cheddar cheese, or mix with sweet caramel and cheddar. It’s the perfect snack for your smart holiday party. Shop now at snacks dot com. Welcome back to the Bulwark host of Hollywood. My name is Sunny Bunch.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:28

    I’m auditor at the Bulwark. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by David Cogashaw, who is the writer and co producer, right, on orphan first kill. Indeed. I am I’m a fan of this movie and we well, I’ll talk about why in a second, but I’m really glad to have him on because I wanna I wanna talk about what we the moment we are living through, which is described by some as a hot horror fall. We’re in we’re in hot horror, summer, hot horror fall.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:54

    It seems like the only thing that studios are making that are like constantly a in theaters and b hitting. But also there were some controversy about, you know, orphan first kill and theaters versus streaming, etcetera, etcetera. We’ll talk about all that as well. But thank you again for being on the show. Let’s talk about orphan first kill.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:13

    How who who exactly was it that was, like, we need a sequel to the to the surprise. Yes. Orphan from, you know, two thousand two thousand eight, two thousand nine, whenever that came out. Two two we need we need we need more ester we need more ester. The
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:32

    answer because nobody needed it. It just sort of happened. Like, this is one of the funniest comments I always get of. Like, who the fuck needed this? I might let’s say wearing this show.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:42

    Yeah. Yep. That’s fine. It’s like, who the last for this movie? The answer is nobody.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:45

    But what I’m glad is that people have been priced it. Yeah. So, like, it took years to get this done. Probably twenty fourteen, one of my best friends, David Leslie Johnson, McGoldrick, who wrote the first orphan. It’s the movie that launched his career.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:03

    He had when that movie came out, just to prep this, I went opening weekend to see it in the theater with him. And I sat between David and Little at the time twelve year old Isabelle Fuhrman. And I, you know, I’ve never seen orphan. So I was like, oh, this little kid is sitting next to me, and I’m watching the movie. I’m watching this evil kid get more and more evil.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:24

    And I finally watch her kill a nun with a hammer. And I’m looking over this kid, like,
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:29

    what the fuck?
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:30

    Oh my god. I can’t believe this cherubic adorable little girl is just a psycho murderer. So it’s an absolutely terrific experience in the theater with my friend and the star. And I’m a big fan of Gothic horror. I’ve always I just feel like this is a Gothic horror movie, at least the original one was.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:49

    And so I had also been in a writer’s group for that have been for twenty years with a group of guys who and and women who just all sort of came up together. And one of them was David Johnson, McGoldrick. And So he had read me a million times. And so a few years later, he came to me and he’s like, hey man, I have this bad shit awesome idea for an orphan prequel that tells the story of how she gets here from Estonia. You know, but at the time he was writing Aquaman and Aquaman two and all this giant stuff taking him all over the world.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:26

    And he’s like, I don’t have the bandwidth or the time to write this, but this is so up your alley. Would you be interested if we could find anybody to pay you to write the screenplay? Would you be interested in my file? Yeah, man. Or from one of my all time favorite movies, and I love scary kid movies.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:43

    I’ve always gravitated toward them, and I’ve always wanted the right one. And so we we set a breakfast where all we literally all we had was, hey, this is the story of how Esther gets here from Estonia. And, I mean, I don’t know if your listeners have already seen the movie. I’m not sure how deep to go into it. But basically, you know, there’s sort of there was this challenge of how to make Esther, you know, the villain of the first movie into the protagonist of the second.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:14

    And, of course, you know, how do you, you know, how do you make your shark, the the hero, as you put it up against a mean or shark. Yeah. And So basically, we we set a breakfast with the with the the people from silver pictures and dark castle. And the original director Jean McClett Serum. And we had a breakfast.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:33

    And David and I basically just told him that. We said, this is the story of how Esther can hear from Estonia. We’re gonna pitter against someone worse. And that’s pretty much it. And it was just a lot of times I’m discovering, you know, in a career a lot of times you pitch for twenty minutes every detail of a movie and you don’t get the job and
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:53

    sometimes you
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:54

    pitch for ten seconds. And you do get the job. But what happened, we we left that breakfast feeling really this, you know, years ago, twenty fifteen maybe feeling really good and then we didn’t hear anything for a day, a week. A month, a year, and two years went by. We didn’t hear anything.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:09

    I completely forgot about it. I went off and did a bunch of other stuff. I and at the time, I just come off doing a draft of thundercats for Warner Brothers, which is like my first, you know, giant scale world building. And I’m just like a little thriller writer. I’m a horror guy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:24

    And I had just come off of of that and it was like, world building. You gotta build, you know, one world and then blow it up and then build another world. You know? And it was just this mind boggling scale that I came off of, just feeling completely burnt out, wondering if I even knew how to do this anymore, and at that moment, I happen to be on vacation, and my my Zen Agent called. And he’s like, hey, man, did you pitch on an orphan prequel?
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:52

    I was like, what? He’s like, I don’t know, man. He’s gonna call about an orphan freak. Well, I’m like, I attended a breakfast two two years ago. Like, that’s that’s
  • Speaker 3
    0:06:00

    the last I heard of it. He’s like, we just got an offer. Do you want he want it right to offer free quote? I’m like, fuck. Yeah.
  • Speaker 3
    0:06:06

    A hundred percent.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:07

    I do because, like, you know, I have really had it clear in my head. I I that’s the tone I can slip in and out of very easily as opposed to, you know, writing a huge action movie with six protagonists where every protagonist has to be serviced in every fight against six antagonists. It’s like, Okay. So, like, oh my god, scary kid in a house with a family. I’ll I can I can do that all day.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:32

    So I was like, hell yeah. Total palate cleanser. And I jumped in and, you know, we hammered out a plot. And I just got to work and it was one of those scripts that just felt right from the start. Like, from fade in, it just typed easily.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:47

    And a lot of times, that’s a good sign. And, yeah, just crank this thing out and Dark Castle was happy with it and but nothing happened. It just sort of sat there. Again, for another I mean, this would have been twenty eighteen or something that I wrote it, like, finally around twenty twenty. As COVID was kicking off, like, suddenly there was we had a director for it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:11

    William Brent Bell. And I was like, holy shit. And we had a new studio e one, and it just started gaining momentum. And you kinda watch these things incrementally move forward. You know, there’s no such thing as a green light.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:23

    You know, the green light is a fucking myth. A green light is actually just this incremental series of tiny little steps that can go away at any time. And for me, the the sign that your movies actually probably gonna get made is when people start taking flights. And that’s, you know, that to me was like, oh my god. Suddenly we had Julia Stiles on board and what was crazy was we made this movie in in, what, late twenty twenty.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:52

    So we were in peak pre vacuum COVID, one of the only movies that was made during this period where, like, you know, everything was six feet apart. Everything was in face shields. You know, I watched the movie. And what I see is Julia Styles having just taken off a face shield before she set her line. I see I watched that love scene and I go, they were wearing face shields and standing six feet apart until the director yelled action.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:20

    And we made this movie in those circumstances. Again, pre vaccine in Winnipeg, in winter, in a tiny little house, and somehow nobody got COVID. I I don’t it was during Winnipeg’s biggest peak of COVID. And the only person in production who caught COVID was me, and I was three thousand miles away here in Los Angeles, and I made no advice trip to Home Depot, you know — Yeah. — and ended up laid up ten days.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:46

    And somehow, they all escaped it. Yeah. What else?
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:49

    Well, I that’s that’s really interesting. I I so you So you were kind of watching remotely? Yeah. Were were they were they
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:56

    I had a live feed
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:57

    when the live feeder?
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:58

    It was amazing. And I wish I could do this on every movie. They they gave me a live feed from video village. So I saw everything that camera one and camera two were seeing. And that includes them just turning on the cameras at seven AM and it’s just they’re on and the mics are on from even when everything’s just getting set up.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:18

    So I just would get my coffee in the morning and I would plop down and just watch and observe and basically eavesdrop. And then text, you know, if I saw something was you know, overtly not happening the way it should, you know, dialogue wise, you know, I would be able to shoot a text to Frank and be like, hey, you know, it’s the meaning of the line is is really this, you know. Mhmm. It might be it might be a good note to give, that kind of thing. But for the most part, I just sat back and watched at the time, my wife, Lori Evans Taylor, she was prepping her first directorial feature that she wrote and directed.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:54

    And so she was psyched to have be able to sit next to me for nine hours a day and just watch a movie get made. Yeah. And just you know, learn all the, you know, terminology that had slipped through the cracks of the the book she had read and the director she had talked to and, you know, you just get to see onset she wanted onset experience, but it’s fucking fucking COVID. There there were no sense to miss it. Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:18

    So that was a big yeah. That’s a big plus. We got to do it together.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:22

    That’s pretty cool. That’s cool. We, you know, it’s it’s interesting hearing you talk about writing this character because It’s funny. We we had we had joked a little bit on Twitter about iconic movie villains. And, you know, you you suggested humbly very humbly Esther as a as a as as a new iconic movie on.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:40

    But I I do think that there’s there is something there’s something very intense and different about her this time than in in the first the first movie. I in the sense that it does feel like there’s something a little more intent channel about some of the, like, smoking the cigarette in the car or something. So how do you how do you as the guy who comes in to write sequel, you know, after having loved the first one, do you kind of balance that effort to make her a little extra? Should I always say? And and also stay true to the original character that obviously there are beats that you have to follow and plot points that you have to you have to get to.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:20

    To to to make
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:22

    that work. That’s what got me excited about the movie to begin with is because if you recall, the again, the last five minutes of the first movie are where you get to see behind a curtain with her. You get to see her be, you know, might love to say an adult.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:35

    Yeah. You know? Spoilers for the, you know, thirteen year old hit movie orphan coming
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:41

    up. Yeah. Honestly. Seriously. But, like, I remember in that when I first started talking about this job, I remember thinking like, oh, wait.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:49

    We get to have all the fun that they couldn’t have in the first movie because they had to preserve their twist. And it’s like, you know, when you see her in the last five minutes of that movie, and she’s a fully fledged you realize she’s fully fledged at all with, you know, the desires and you know, the flaws and anger that comes with that. It’s like, oh my god. We get to actually play with that. We get to see her wanna drink and smoke and fuck and and do all this stuff that, like, you couldn’t do because she was in little pigtails acting like a kid in the first movie.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:18

    And I’m like, oh my god. From the get go, we can be like, She’s a grown up. Here’s her process. You know? Here’s how we, you know and that’s why moments like where she swipes the vodka from the stewardess, you know, and goes in and just starts chugging vodka in the bathroom.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:34

    It’s like, that was one of the first moments I thought of. I’m like, oh my god, we get to see her drink. We get to see her smoke that’s seen in the car with maniac, like, was again one of the first things I thought of where I’m like, we get to see her drive. She’s gonna have this big scarf billowing out. And it, you know, in that way, you got to have more fun with the character because there’s just there’s this whole other side of her that they couldn’t explore.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:56

    In the first movie. And now in subsequent movies, you totally can. And you it’s all about the woman behind the curtain, you know. Anyway, the first movie was all curtain. And then
  • Speaker 3
    0:13:05

    just throw over the curtain at the end. I’m like, so
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:08

    are all all all I remember I remember seeing that movie in in theaters with an audience you know, it was it was a preview screening, so it was, like, half critics, half half paying or, you know, not paying, but but regular moviegoers. And the the It’s one of those very rare experiences that you remember for years afterwards because the oxygen just like goes out of the room. You know, people are like gas asping and, you know, it was a it was a real it was a real moment. And, you know, I’m gonna Alright. Well, I’m gonna just give a spoiler warning here for orphan first kills because so we can talk a little bit about what happens in that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:47

    So if folks wanna switch off it’s on Paramount plus You can download Paramount plus Go watch it now. I think you can also rent it on on VOD. So if you wanna if you wanna go do that, do
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:59

    that. A few theaters too.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:01

    Still it it it it actually is it’s funny. I I googled it to see if it was still in theaters here in Dallas, and
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:06

    it does. So
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:06

    if it’s it it’s still in it’s still in some We’re in two
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:09

    hundred. We were in five hundred an hour and two hundred.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:13

    It’s a I’m gonna I’m gonna come back to this because I’m I’m I have I have questions
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:17

    about this
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:18

    from your from your perspective. But so spoilers for or for for sure, if you haven’t seen it yet and you wanna see it. Flip off and come back later. But so, you know, in this movie, there is a similar twist. There is a, you know, you you have a big reveal in the middle again.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:37

    And I’m I’m curious from your POB as the writer you know, how do you hit that without it, a being obvious, but also b without just doing a rehash of the first one. Because I I’ll be honest, as I was watching orphan first go, I was like, okay, this is good, but, like, it feels like we’re hitting a lot of the same beats here. Like, oh, no. This is this is totally different.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:00

    Yeah. It’s funny. I think we we drew that out to the absolute maximum amount amount amount of time that we could have And I it’s funny. I watch it in the theater. I’ve I’ve popped into at least a dozen screenings.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:13

    A lot of times with William Brandel, he and I just go drink it, you know, get some beers at public dump and walk into the city walk theater and just, like, watch audiences, watch the twist. And it’s great. But one thing I have noticed is that people’s patience is just starting to fray a little bit when the twist gets there. And then there’s this like boost of energy and everyone goes, what the fuck? And it becomes this whole other movie for the second half and you you just feel the air come back into the room and you’re like, oh, okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:45

    Like, now we’re doing this, I completely agree that, you know, for the first half. Like, we’re we’re kind of lulling you into a feeling of, well, we’re gonna have some fun showing you Esther’s process behind the curtain, but ultimately she’s doing stuff she’s done before. We’re just showing it. You know, we’re showing, you know, the the mindset behind it. And what’s funny is that there were scenes that ended up on the cutting edge floor that I really, really miss.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:08

    But I realized if they were in there, we would have pushed that crucial two minutes or three minutes or four minutes and we might have lost some people because I did see that a little bit on social media. I would see, like, oh man, was just about to give up on this movie and holy fuck. And I’m like, oh, thank god you you lasted those couple of minutes. And it’s like, yeah, we had to lose a killer to to to move that to move that twist up. But, you know, ultimately those are things we can use in three.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:37

    Yeah. I well, so we’re are we gonna see an orphan orphan orphan second kill? Third I what’s well, I I don’t know how many kills
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:48

    we’re at. I would love to work. It would, you know, it would be I don’t even know what the process would be. I’m cursed with hyphens in my in my career. You’ve probably noticed.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:56

    So, yeah, it’s gonna end up being, like, orphan second kill, except shit. But I don’t know. I mean, I know that, you know, the the brainchild behind orphan real sort of part of Orphan is Dave Lesley Johnson, McColdrick, and who’s the writer in Alex Mace, who’s the producer. And they’re sort of the gatekeepers of of Esther. And, I mean, we all had a terrific experience on this, so I would hope they would come back to me because honestly, I I love it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:22

    Like, I’m I’m doing a lot of different kinds of movies now, but, like, honestly, this is the kind of shit I love doing. I could write. I I told these guys, they they kinda were like, hey, you know, are you interested in? You know, you’ve got kind of a big year, like, you you you’re interested in doing a third or fourth with you. I’m like, yes, a hundred percent.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:38

    I would do it in a fucking second. So I’m waiting for the, you know, the official ask and hopefully it’ll come, but I would totally do it. Yeah. I love it. I would She’s just fired.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:49

    Yeah. I mean, it’s it is fun. And, you know, it obviously, Isabel Sherman is great in this movie, but Julia Styles, like, almost a revelation. Like, I I just I was I was I was I was so into the reveal again halfway through that it for folks who have not seen it and have still stuck with the the show and it turns out that she’s actually a killer too and she has covered up the murder of her daughter who Esther Isabel Fuhrman is supposed to be, you
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:18

    know, the return — Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:20

    — the return she is impersonating. And is insinuating herself into the family. But she’s so good in this. She’s so I like, just just really magnetic
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:28

    to lunch. Yeah. And it’s so fun it’s so fun to watch things cut together too and come from, you know, you watch take after take. And now that we had a ton of takes, we’re shooting at Winnipeg and COVID. I think people wanted to get through shit, quit this quickly possible.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:40

    But, like, you watch it, cut together, and you go, oh my god. That thing she just did with her eyes is so goddamn evil. And, like, I didn’t notice that on the day of. I didn’t notice that choice she made. And it’s so funny because honestly, I watched the movie and I go, how the hell did people not see this twist coming?
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:55

    There are so many hints you know, I think that the you know, I I watch that scene where the family gathers at the airport and welcomes her home and the brave, the brother hugs her and says this look of, like, don’t think this is my sister. And it’s like he’s got the he’s got that sort of eyes. I’m like, oh, god. They’re gonna they’re gonna see that shot. They’re gonna know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:14

    Oh, they’re gonna know and they don’t. They don’t.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:17

    Well, I I I do think the first one helps with this. Right? Because again, you have that sensation of like, okay, this feels a little bit like a retread. Like, the the brother is standoffish, like, the original brother. Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:28

    Like like, okay. And it’s it’s kind of the same thing. But it’s funny, you now that you when you put it like that, I was watching it again last night to prep for this. And as I was watching it, I was like, okay. They are they are very clearly setting up the the reveal.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:43

    You just can’t see it. You you you can’t it is it’s very well hidden. It is a it’s it is great. And I would’ve loved to have seen it. With an audience in a theater.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:53

    What exactly is the story here between this movie getting getting a day in day release more or less? What what happen there?
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:01

    I I mean, look, when you’re the screenwriter, you know, a lot of times you’re not previous conversations, but my perception of it was that paramount was was looking at this and going, well, this is a good fun movie, but it’s a prequel to a small, you know, relatively small hit from thirteen years ago. Like, I can see how they’re like, this this could either work or this could be like a complete shit show. In terms of release. So, I mean, they they touted it as, like, this is we’re gonna experiment with this big new, you know, idea of complete platform release on the same day, you know, which they they set they they announced to you very, like, we’re gonna do this and you’re kinda like, isn’t that gonna fuck the theaters? You know, it’s like But then, you know, honestly, I didn’t expect didn’t know what to expect.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:54

    Honestly, I thought this movie might completely fail or or be hated I didn’t know how the horror community was gonna react to it. Part of me was hoping, like, it might even just sort of fade away so that it, you know, like, in case people hated it, like at least it wouldn’t, you know, explode in my face. But I I noticed when advanced screening started happening. And I’m trying to remember who it was. It might have been like John Squires or somebody who just had did sort of a blind item of, like, I just saw a little horror movie that I thought would be shitty.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:29

    And actually, I totally loved. And I remember that it was, you know, on Monday or something. I remember thinking, oh my god. What if that’s what if that’s ours? What if because I’m trying to think of what else it could be, you know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:40

    And I just remember thinking and then I saw a couple more like that. I’m like, I’m beginning to think they’re talking about OFK. And just sure enough that this reaction occurred and, like, the horror community embraced it. I’m, like, they’re the ones I was most worried about. Because they look at me.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:55

    They look at my track record, like, who funds this guy. You know, and this movie is thirteen years late. And Isabelle’s, like, a twelve year old at twenty five. Like, it’s there’s this movie has every reason not to work. Everything working against it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:10

    And for whatever reason, people have just embraced it. And it was funny. It’s like the the the movie that went out I still feel is like a movie that we are halfway through post. And then I just sort of so I stopped getting emails and something that’s the movie. You know, there were still, like, lines where I’m, like, I
  • Speaker 3
    0:22:28

    want that removed, you know. And, like, you just never get your email responded to it. And then the movie comes you’re like, oh, so this is it. I guess this
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:35

    is the movie. You know, I never feel like something’s finished. As a writer, you have very little control, though, except when you’re writing ADR lines. But, like, I’ll give you an example. There there’s Julia had an improv line where I guess Brent was sort of like, just just say something about the parrot.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:54

    And she basically was like, you know you know, all parents are what what is it? All all my cause are parents but not all parents are fucking my cause. Right? Yeah. She just said this.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:05

    And I remember watching her saying this. And on, like, on the day, I’m going, what does that even mean? Like, I don’t I don’t get this joke, like, okay, there there’s a no weird take. Alright. You know, and then I watched it end up in the cut, and I I and I just never got the line.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:21

    I was like, I don’t even understand what she’s saying here. You know? And it stayed with the movie and I kept going, I think we should know, maybe lose that. And then I would go to theaters and that line kills every single time. The audience cracks up laughing and I sit there going, I still don’t care.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:38

    I don’t know what the fuck that line is. A guy tweeted the other day. He’s like, the the Oscar for best original screenplay for a single line goes to Dave Cogashaw for all my cause of fucking parents. And I’m like, dude, I didn’t write that. I’m like, that’s
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:52

    so funny. That is funny. That is funny. I because I that that line jumped out to me as well as I it’s just a very it’s a very you know what it is? It’s a it’s a very humorously pre …petition sort of line.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:06

    It’s like, how do you not understand this? That, you know, the differences between the cause and parents alone. It’s like, difference between a rapier and a broad school. I like, you know, I like, a but either a For for the character.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:20

    People do that after they’re like, is he using an Epay or a foil? Because I don’t believe that an Epay you could actually stab somebody with in the climax, you know, Yeah. That’s that you’re right. I think that’s actually the source of that’s why the joke worked. We went for something similar in a line that got kind of butchered, which was the get gunner push all step line where, you know, it’s basically just a rich kid using the one Russian word he knows, you know, push all step but in the on the day of the actor pronounced it pay Alsta.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:50

    And, like, I remember thinking I remember taxi bread going, that’s not how you pronounce the word. This fucking kid would know how to pronounce the word, you know, because it’s the one Russian word he can trot out. And, like, that’s what little rich highly private school educated kids do. They flaunt their education even as their second down beers. And and I remember just and he did a second take with pay also.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:11

    And I’m like,
  • Speaker 3
    0:25:11

    Bucking. That’s the word right. You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:14

    So I’d ended up in a cut as Paola, and I just kept being like, dude, we have got to ADR this thing. We’ve got to ADR this thing. And again, They didn’t. And it ended up in the movie, and the audience laughs. And I think the way Brent explained it to me, he’s like, look, he’s a guy who knows it’s from one Russian word, but he doesn’t even know how to pronounce because he’s this total douchebag.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:33

    Yeah. And I’m like, okay. Like, if we could take you know, if people actually go on that journey, you know, go down that route to understand the line. But again, audience like it. So this was a lot of these were a lesson in a humbling lesson in me realizing that my radar is sometimes off and that sometimes you fight battles and you should maybe step back and look at it from thirty five thousand feet and be like, am I wrong here?
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:56

    Because as you see audiences react to the movie, you’re like, shit, they love the line that I hit it, or they hated the line that I loved. You know, they’re always what you you can always tell from an audience like, early on if it’s gonna be an audience that digs the movie based on I found that one of the sort of canary in the coal mine lines is when the doctor is explaining to the art history teacher, like the history of Esther, and he says to the family, you know, and or you said he’s describing what she did to the last family who took her in. That’s like crime scene photos of just like blood and mayhem. And she’s like, and when he rebuffed her advances, let’s just say she lives here now in a mental institution, you know. And that that line to me is one of those lines where you’re like, the audio thought it cracks up on that line.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:44

    Like, you’re in for a good time. And if they don’t, you’re like, okay. We’re gonna have to I really hope we win them over. You know? Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:52

    Did you did you guys preview this for test audiences or
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:55

    or or No. No. No. That’s that’s honestly I don’t know. I was I did not even know the movie was coming out until he’s three weeks before he came
  • Speaker 3
    0:27:03

    out. Like, hey, it’s coming out
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:04

    with this giant ice and we, you know, you’d well, I guess you wanna talk about theaters later, but
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:11

    Well, let’s talk let’s talk about that because I I I this is, again, this is a movie I wish I had seen with an audience because I feel like that that sort of reaction as you’ve seen, you know, at at theaters is something that is that is fun to
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:22

    spirit. I will say there’s something reaction like, there’s the the twist. And what I love about the twist is, like, the air the air goes, when the gunshot happens and you pan to to Julia, and then you have the cut and then the line that always, like, sends you into the second half of the movie that the audience tends to dig is she’s just looking at her and she goes, Let me get this straight. You’re a grown ass woman. You know what I mean?
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:44

    And
  • Speaker 3
    0:27:44

    it’s one of those lines where the audience is like, oh, we’re doing we’re doing crime school now.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:49

    Like, we’re doing okay. And the whole thing is, like, teaching Esther how to be Esther. Like, that’s a whole easter egg for the second movie. It’s, like, here, I’m gonna teach you all of the tricks you’re gonna use in the original movie. Know Sorry.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:00

    I just — Yeah. — turn it segue.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:02

    No. That’s fine. I I have I have a interpretation question. If you don’t wanna answer it, don’t I feel free to feel free to rebuff but does the are are we to believe that the cop believes that the mother was the killer of the original actor? Does he does he think that she did it?
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:20

    Or is is he still just looking for the lost girl?
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:23

    I think he no. I think he thinks I think he knows I think it’s a he thinks it’s a job at a situation, you know. I think he doesn’t know necessarily how it went down, but that this girl was not kidnapped. That something happened and this family has been stonewalling. And so I think and one thing I like about Brent, the way he portrayed the he portrayed him as very competent.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:44

    You know, I like the fact that, you know, when Esther when the cop is sitting in his in his office and doing the fingerprint and realizing they don’t match between the original and the new Esther. You know, he hears that sound and he, you know, he actually takes the gun out of his drawer. You know, that was a choice, Greg made. And I’m like, this is a competent guy who probably is a war veteran. You know, and you it’s these little moments that he gives, like, with the water glass where he notices that Esther left the room to fill her water glass and didn’t fill it when she came back in.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:13

    He’s like a fucking onto you. That’s what that whole move that’s what that whole moment is supposed to be. It’s him looking at this little girl and being like, welcome home kid, who I know is not the little girl. You know, and you don’t necessarily know why until that moment, you know, when investors stab the shit out of them and says, you know, how did you how did you know I’m not Esther, you know? Even her own mother doesn’t know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:34

    And it’s like, yeah, kid. She does. Yeah. And that was, again, one of the first lines of thought of was, like, oh, I can’t wait to write that thing on page fifty five, right, where we do this, like, in turn.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:48

    Let me Alright. So let’s let’s talk a little bit about the distribution of the movie. And again, you know, as as a screenwriter, it’s these are, you know, not necessarily your calls to make. But I am I am curious from your your perspective as as a filmmaker, you know, the difference between getting that theatrical release and getting the streaming release and also just how that works for you on the business end. And and what I mean here is, I I hear a lot of rumblings more more and more every week, frankly, of people suggesting that a strike is coming, riders’ guild is headed towards a strike because the residuals are bad and the information is bad and, like, nothing is quite working in the world of streaming.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:35

    As a working writer, as as somebody who, you know, had this movie go day in date and also, you know, who has worked on TV shows, etcetera, etcetera, from your from your perspective, how is all that shaking out do you think?
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:48

    The math is an alchemy. I don’t understand. And I think that benefits the company’s It’s it’s all very confusing. I don’t actually know what the finances of orphan per skill will be because you reread about these settlements that have been reached. People like Eric Heiser, you know, for Bird Box.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:05

    And suddenly, there are people actually, I guess, I don’t know if you’d call it suing, but, you know, sicking the writer’s guild for for residual. You you’re basically looking for that number that would be like, look, if if this were not a streaming movie, what would I have made for residuals? What am I sacrificing by having it be a streaming movie? And how do we calculate — Mhmm. — our our work It’s just tough because, you know, we live in a world where people will watch, you know, we’ll click a movie for ten seconds and be like, nah, I’m not in the mood for this and that counts as a view.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:35

    It’s like, I get the company’s going, you know and and we’re I think, ultimately, the the it’s gonna have to feel about transparency. And I know current companies are never into transparency, but I think that’s what ultimately the guild action is gonna be. It’s like, hey, we need to figure out how many eyeballs are on these things. You know, how long they’re watching them for. We need the raw data.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:56

    And I think that’s probably what that effort will be about you know, when you hear that your movie’s coming out on streaming, your head immediately goes, well, okay, how does that affect my residuals? How does that affect, you know, theatrical But theatrical, at least in my experience, does not benefit the writer too much unless you have a giant hit and it hits these benchmarks that triggers bonuses. So it’s not like you get a percentage of box office. Right. If you get like, if the movie makes thirty million dollars, you get a bonus.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:28

    If it makes sixty million dollars, you get another bonus and so on and so on. But like that was never gonna happen. Here. So, like, I get you know, I have my friend will text me and be like, dude, we’re up to thirty two million worldwide and, like, your heart swells, and then you have this moment. What does that actually mean for me?
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:45

    Like, that doesn’t I was like, okay. That’s great for the You guys great for the franchise. It’s great for the distributors. And but, like, you know, I don’t get a piece of that. So it’s I don’t necessarily it would have been great to have a giant hit that would have triggered some of those bonuses, but Honestly, I never expected it to be.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:02

    I always thought this would be sort of a niche horror movie that would not be a big theatrical hit. But in retrospect, you know, we made, I think, five million dollars domestically on less than five hundred theaters which is pretty fucking good in terms of first first screen average. I think we had a very high first screen average. I think we were second next to Top Gun Maverick, you know. In terms of that at the time we’re doing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:27

    And so you kinda go, you know what? This might have been. This could have been a bigger hit than it was. But Honestly, I don’t know what that it would have meant to me. Financially, I’m just site that people are liking it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:40

    I’m site that it’s not you know, I’ve had a couple of, you
  • Speaker 3
    0:33:44

    know, things that don’t look great on your resume and, you know, this one suddenly I’m going, hey, this one does. Holy shit. That’s
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:49

    great. Well, that’s I I It’s again, I’m I am pleased that that folks have found it because I did I did enjoy it. A great deal. And it looks it looks for the record. I I mentioned this in my review if people are listening to this and reading who had read my review.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:06

    The the screener link that we got was weirdly messed up. So I I wrote about that a little bit, but it looks it looks perfectly fine on Paramount plus four k. I watched it again last night. Like I said, looks good. So don’t worry about that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:20

    If you wanna check it out, and you should. You should watch it because it’s a fun movie. We I I just wanna I wanna mention one other thing that we we had talked a little bit about on Twitter before I let you go where all of the real conversations happen. Twitter dot com. The the world of piracy and streaming and and, you know, the the suggestion that it does not matter to the filmmakers, to the artists when this sort of thing when, you know, something gets downloaded, not from Paramount Plus or not VOD.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:53

    As a filmmaker, as an artist, how do you how do you
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:56

    respond to those people? I think it’s how I I don’t actually know the extent of piracy. I have no idea if it’s a epidemic that is causing shit tons of streams and money, or if it’s just like a bunch of knuckleheads and it doesn’t it’s a trap in the bucket. I I actually don’t know. I do take ish you with the people who defend it as not theft.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:22

    And their justification always is hey, it’s a drop in the bucket for H. B. O. Max. I’m like, yeah, I’m not H.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:28

    B. O. Max. Like, streaming numbers matter to me. You know, streaming numbers matter in terms of eventually what is calculated in they don’t call them residuals.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:39

    I I don’t even it’s still a green envelope, but it’s streaming. It’s different. I’ll just call that residual. So it does it does matter. Numbers of streams matters.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:47

    Numbers of rent, you know, every time someone pirate a movie, they are not paying three ninety nine to rent it, you know, and that is something I get a piece of. And so there’s this, I think, a willful denial. From from some people of, like, I’m just stealing from or I’m just borrowing something from HBO Max I’m not actually taking something off of a shelf. It’s a copy of a copy, you know. And you go, yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:12

    That’s that you are to take some mental gymnastics to explain how that is different from grabbing lipstick off shelf, you know. Yeah. I think if you have to jump through hoops to explain why something’s not theft, it’s probably
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:27

    theft. Yeah. I think that’s a good way to put it. If you have to if you have to explain why something’s
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:33

    not up, it’s probably
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:35

    You’ve probably stopped.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:36

    I just I just I I disagree with the argument that you’re only stealing from from Paramount Plus because that’s just not true. And that that displays a a naivety about the that sort of behind the scenes finances of Hollywood and it and you’re your career. I mean, like, having a number one movie on we it’s been number one for weeks and weeks on Paramount Plus. And that that’s a thing that’s a feather in your cap, that’s something your agent can talk about. That’s, you know, and so I would imagine that if piracy is a huge problem.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:05

    And again, I don’t know if it is. So it’s not something I get very upset about. I get upset when people defend it as a victim, let’s cry. You know, that’s what bothers you. I actually don’t know the extent of the problem.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:18

    So it’s not something that really drives me nuts. Except when people are like, it doesn’t affect anybody because it does. Yeah. That’s fair. That’s a fair way to put it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:28

    Alright. I I have asked everything I wanted
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:30

    to ask And I will once again plug the movie. It’s on Paramount plus Go, check it out if you’ve listened to this whole thing and you haven’t watched it yet. I don’t know what you’re doing, but you should should go see it. I always like to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked, if there’s anything you think people should know about the making Aevorphan first kill. I mean, I I I could have probably done another ten minutes on shooting during COVID and all that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:52

    I mean, it’s it’s fascinating little window in the the world of filmmaking where, like, you know, for for a year, everyone was locked down all the time and wearing masks and and all that. It was crazy. But, you know, I I I don’t know if you wanna talk about that or
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:09

    anything else? I think that’s why people have flooded back to theaters. It’s just like people are site to go have communal experiences again, you know. Shit. No.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:20

    I will say the one cool thing that this movie freed us up to do in terms of moving forward is the the fan response to the bat shit camp of it and has really made us realize we have a lot of freedom to not we can go a little crazy. Like, the options are open to us. Like, fans basically are coming out being, like, we don’t care if original Esther punches her way out of the ice. And and fucking crawls up and stocks like, you know, and it’s just her old. So, like, they don’t care.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:58

    They just want more Esther. It’s gonna be you know, it’s about getting older and older with each passing year and, like, the idea of making prequel prequel prequel is, like, wow, and we can do it. And what’s great is that we can still do it because the fans are like fuck it. Like, we’ll go on this journey with you. Like, which we didn’t know if they would.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:18

    We thought they’d be like, yeah. But I think what people appreciate is big swings. People are like they’re taking a big swing. And I think that’s what this horror fall thing is they’re not our fault. I think people like the movies are like taking big swings.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:33

    We’ve kind of moved out of that era of the, you know, the easy blue tinted remake. Dominating horror. And now we have, like, shit like Mandy and, like, Barbarian and, like Or if it works kill where you’re
  • Speaker 3
    0:39:47

    just, like,
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:49

    Just like throwing crazy onto the screen and people have sight. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:53

    I mean, it is it is a it is a very interesting moment in horror right now. Like, you you mentioned barbarian. I mean, there’s also pearl, you know, from a twenty four, body’s body’s bodies is kind of in that in that realm that’s more more thriller than horror, I guess. But, like, it’s a it’s it is it’s a fun time. I mean, how how, you know, what have you seen in theaters and loved, I guess, in this in this space?
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:20

    Or what have you seen period in love in this space over the last few months here. That’s that’s tough because a lot of these
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:26

    things are theaters only. And and I have, you know, two kids and I could fly to Atlanta all the time. But I don’t know. Like, we just like, I just saw x. Like, I’m I’m I’m behind.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:40

    So some of these things I haven’t actually seen, like, we we sat down to watch Pearl the other night and you can’t get it. It’s ungetable. You have to go to the theater to sit. And so it’s, you know, honestly, what has been a big problem for me is that we lost our center our sitter moved to Arizona, and we do not have a sitter for our two kids. And so my wife and her, like, one one of us can go out and see a movie, you know, that kind of things.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:02

    Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:03

    That That’s a very relatable problem. That is that is a super relatable problem.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:08

    Alright. We’re seeing Halloween niggas tomorrow night, so we’ll see if that’s any good in the theater.
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:12

    Oh, okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:13

    Nice, hon. Is that is that out? That’s
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:16

    not out. That’s not good. That’s
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:18

    out. We’re going to a That’s right. Okay.
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:20

    Wow. Nice. Very exciting. Well, yep. They have to let us know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:24

    How well, I have to let me know how the
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:26

    I have to see how Wayne kills first.
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:30

    It’s good. It’s I like all I like all those. I like that, well, the first two. Anyway, I haven’t seen the the the new one yet. But
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:37

    I like bonkers. I like you you actually, this this script was written as Northam first kill was written. It was called Esther, by the way up until like, right before release. And then my my curse of the hyphen that reared its ugly head and suddenly I had another hyphenated movie. I wrote it as like a straight Gothic thriller, like it say, you know, it was not written to be as campy as it was and Brent leading into that and poured some gas ethylene on it, and I really worked.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:04

    That’s what people really, really responded to. Check it out again. Go sign up for Paramount Plus. Watch it. Keep it on the on
  • Speaker 1
    0:42:10

    the charts over there. You’re you’re doing you’re doing a good thing by doing that. Alright. I am so much. Thanks again David for being on the show.
  • Speaker 1
    0:42:18

    I really appreciate it. I will be back next week with another episode of the Boerco’s Hollywood. I’ll see you guys in.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:32

    Get an inside look at Hollywood with Michael Rose and Bob. Let’s get inside Debra and Whoa. If you had to choose between true blood, dare double to do again.
  • Speaker 1
    0:42:42

    Partially because the Marvel series feel unfinished to me, but because we got canceled when we thought we were gonna have more. Whereas true blood, we did get to wrap it up. I knew that we were wrapping it up. I could say goodbye to everyone. I stole something from a set.
  • Speaker 1
    0:42:55

    I know I didn’t get to steal anything from our daredevil set.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:57

    Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum, wherever you listen.