Democrats are Ready to Deal (with Rep. Dan Goldman)

Hello, and welcome to the next level Sunday show. I’m your host Tim Miller. We’ve got a

great guest today. Congressman Dan Goldman, MSNBC, super star. He’s been crushing the congressional oversight committee pushing back on Jim Jordan all his nonsense. We talk about the house speaker race, the dysfunction among the Republicans. Most importantly, he was in Tel Aviv on October the seventh on the day of that terrorist attacks.

We talked about his experience there and and what’s coming next both with the hostages in Israel and, with the Mediterranean issue in Gaza, and the geopolitics surrounding it. It’s a very good discussion. There there are a few little email pings at the beginning of the conversation, but producer Sebastian. He fixed that. So, you know, if they don’t if that is annoying you, it’s gonna end at the at the beginning.

We’re doing our best to create a nice audio experience for you. Is audio a word? We’re gonna go with it. Hope you enjoy it, and we’ll be back on Wednesday, for the next level with JBL, and I think AB Stoner is gonna be in for Sarah Longwell bear down for some darkness. It is gonna be good.

And if you haven’t, yet, subscribe to our YouTube page. I’m doing some more daily videos over there, some shorter videos. So, make sure you’re catching us there in the meantime. We’ll see y’all on Wednesday. Up next, Congressman Dan Goldman, the first, our friends at Asset hunt.

Hello. Welcome to the Bullworks, next level Sunday interview. I’m Tim

Miller. I’m here congressman Dan Goldman who’s got not much to do. I wouldn’t say. What do you do today? Did you have a spa day, sitting to take a long, warm bath?

You sit around, waiting for the Republicans to try to sort out their own civil war.

Yeah.

So definitely a lot of, waiting around.

I’m surprised you put on a jacket for me. I don’t know. If I was in your guys’ shoes, I’d just be I’d just be chilling. Because

Well, I could take off my Hi.

Thank you. So we’re taping this on Thursday afternoon to put folks in a place. And I I wanted to talk about Israel and Sydneypal on the other news, but I feel like start here. They were flirting today with the idea of giving kind of a temporary quasi speaker ship to Patrick McHenry fell in the little chair. It seems like that has not, design of support from within the conference.

So they might go back and go after Jim Jordan again. Like, what what’s your sense of this of the state of play over there in Crazy Town.

Well, I I wish I had some way of, looking into their minds, but it’s not doesn’t seem to be rational and doesn’t seem to be logical. And I think what is clear is that, the only way out of this immediate difficulty that they’re having is to give Patrick McHenry some temporary powers so that Congress can reopen and we can do the job that we were sent here to do. And there’s a lot of bipartisan legislation that’s waiting, to be passed. There is overwhelming support for not only security money for Israel, but also Ukraine. Also, we need to fund the government past November seventeenth.

We need to do a number of other priorities before the end of the year, the FAA reauthorization, the farm bill, there’s much past legislation that has bipartisan support. So what we need is a mechanism to get bipartisan legislation on the house floor so we can pass it. And elevating Patrick McHenry in a temporary role is seems to be the only way to do it because it is apparent that no Republican can get two hundred and seventeen votes for speaker.

I don’t know if he wants that job. I mean, I guess the only thing I worry about about that is that, you know, you guys, obviously, we have important stuff to do, and it’s important that we have one party that actually cares about governing. But, you know, you gotta cut a deal with them. Right? That that that actually yield ensures that you can vote on some of the stuff, not just Ukraine, but maybe some other things that that the Maga side of the caucus doesn’t want.

Right? And and so, you know, what does your guys sense for, like, what the asks on that if there’s a temporary speaker.

Well, look, we are really intent on being a good faith partner in a bipartisan path forward. And we are not looking to extract major concessions, from the Republicans to reorganize and reorient the rules and the entire structure of the house. So our asks are very reasonable, and they are simply to pursue the bipartisan agreements that we have already, which is essential for Congress to do its work. One of the frustrating things that, we Democrats felt during the Kevin McCarthy brief era is that there’s a lot of legislation that has overwhelming support of the majority, vast majority of the house. But because he was held hostage, by the extreme right.

He refused to bring a lot of that to the floor. Ukraine Aid is a perfect example. They’re well over three hundred members who would support aid more aid for Ukraine, but he was not bringing it to the floor because he had his extreme right wing, threatened to remove him if he did. He ended up getting removed, but we cannot live in a world where a few extremists are guiding the controlling the House of Representatives.

This

is why you guys are better people than me. You know, I was saying, I don’t know, maybe DC statehood or something if it’s an exchange for Patrick McHenry. I don’t know. Let’s start, let’s start making some real ass, but I think that’s fair. The bi bipartisan bills, making sure they get a chance to pass.

The problem that they have to your point is On the one hand, it’s an extreme few that really precipitated this, right? On the other hand, I the stuff you’re talking about that’s three hundred votes it’s actually, like, two hundred twelve Democrats and eighty Republicans. Right? And so, like, that’s the problem. That’s, like, the main problem over there.

That appears to be the hang up right now. Is there is

not a majority of the Republican party that wants to

go this route.

Right.

In supporting, Patrick McHenry’s temporary elevation to acting speaker or speaker pro tem. And that’s causing, I think, consternation within the reasonable traditional Republicans who wanna pursue this because they recognize that, a, it’s the only way out, and, b, it’s the only way that we’re gonna get the work done. We need to get done. And so that’s the hang up right now. Jim Jordan is gonna lose votes.

If he goes back on the floor, anyone else will not get two hundred and seventeen votes. This seems to be the only path forward But they are hanging themselves up because they don’t seem to acknowledge that. Yeah.

This is probably a fantasy, but we’re on the Never Secret Podcast. Okay. It’s just dream with me for a second. Doesn’t don bacon want a portrait? You know, can’t we?

Can’t you find one of those guys? Don’t one

of those? Like, don’t we have somebody’s whose ego we could tickle? You know, maybe?

Well, as, as you know, all too well, Tim, I mean, part of the the trick with crossing over party lines to support, speaker from another side is you effectively have to join that party. So if Don Bacon and a few others decide to try to get democratic support to become the speaker of the house, They may be able to be speaker, but they will be persona non grata in the Republican Party, and it will be very difficult to accomplish anything under those circumstances.

It will. It just, you know, depends on how long this goes. It might might tempton. If you if you just run into Don in the cloakroom, just say speaker bacon. It sounds nice, doesn’t it?

You just had to recruit three other guys or or gals. And we can make it happen.

Certainly, we Democrats are open to anything that would get this house back open. But as as you know, it takes two to tango. And so we need to have a partner on the other side. We are in the minority. We cannot do anything without at least some members of the Republican majority.

So we are in a a holding pattern eager to work in a bipartisan way, but bipartisan requires two, not not one.

K. Just the last thing on this. I mean, it is that’s pretty insane. And I and I really I’ll be, you know, this is well, Erin, a couple days. So I might I might prove to be wrong.

But to me, it seems like there’s not really an end in sight. Like, if it wasn’t Jordan, I think McHenry thinks hard for them to put together because there’s gonna be so much anger about it on the right. And so you sit here doing nothing when we have all these crises? I, like, what is your thought about how Democrats can best explain that to folks that don’t follow? You know, punch bowl DC and, like, aren’t following the day to day of this.

How can you message about about the contrast here?

Well, I think what we’ve been saying is, what exactly where we are. And I think it’s the message that resonates based on polling that we’ve seen this week. The Republican approval rating is, has gone down dramatically just in the last thirty days. Republican Congress approval rating. There are swing districts polls that show that the vast majority of people want to see a bipartisan solution in the house.

And the Democrats, we have been very open and very eager in public and with our Republican colleagues to work in a bipartisan way so that we can actually get something done. We are not trying to use this for as much political gain as we can. And by the way, we could. Because, this is politically disastrous for the Republicans, but that’s not what our priority is. We as know, leader Jeffrey says all the time, we are putting people over politics and to put people over politics means that you actually have to do the Bulwark.

That the people want and that will benefit the people. And, that is the message that we are conveying because that is what we believe.

Well, I I I think that’s well intentioned. I don’t, you know, part of me just wonders if they have to have a we’d have to run into this shutdown again and and have people some, you know, folks actually see it. And I think that that seems more realistic than it might have a few days ago. We’ll we’ll see how it turns out. Well, I will say,

I mean, if this supplemental security bill with Israeli aid, Ukraine aid, Taiwan aid, maybe, you know, some order.

Wasn’t there border on there too?

And maybe both the border security, which Republicans, and and Democrats won’t alike. And that passes the Senate. And it comes over and it’s sitting in the house. And we can’t do anything about it even though, you know, the the super majority of the house would want would support the bill and would pass it, that’s going to be very difficult for them to maintain and explain.

Indeed. Okay. I’d recently reached out to chat, for this because of what was happening in Israel. Obviously, and so, you know, we had to cover the speaker craziness first. I wanna get to Sydney Powell, but for folks who don’t know, you were with your family in Tel Aviv.

Last weekend now, I guess. It was when the original terrorist attack happened. So, you know, for folks that aren’t aware, just kind of briefly sort of walk through why you’re over there with your kids and and what that was like.

Yeah. We had a a family, Barbitzvah, in Israel. I actually missed the first a whole weekend and most of the bar mitzvah because of the shutdown and then we were kept in DC before speaker McCarthy, was removed. And after that, I I quickly went and tried to join my did join my family in Tel Aviv, and We were awoken on Saturday morning, October seventh at six thirty with, sirens, indicating that rockets were heading our way from Kamas in the Gaza strip, and we’re told that we had ninety seconds to get to the interior stairwell to seek shelter before those rockets might arrive. So I gathered my three kids and my wife, and we ran to the stairwell, and and it was scary.

And and it was scary for us. Going back and forth as we needed to do, throughout the morning, and then again in the evening, but it was really traumatic for my kids. Who could not understand, what was going on How

old are they? Your kids.

Nine, six, and five are three that were with us and, you know, different ages, but these are these are difficult things to explain to kids that age. And the unfortunate reality is, of course, Israeli children grow up like this. So these were things we would, of course, like to have waited to explain to our kids, and they’re still dealing with some of the trauma. Of course, there’s no comparison to the horrific, horrific trauma, and awful, atrocities that occurred in the south. And that just, eats at me every day.

Yeah. Obviously, there’s no comparison, but, you know, your dad, so just I like how how are they doing? Or, I mean, I assume they’re still you all are still talking about it as a family.

Yeah. We’re they’re they’re doing better and they are talking about it. You know, that first week back was tricky. My, you know, my daughter woke up in the middle of the night, worried it was gonna be World War three and know, my son kept asking which team was winning. You know, it just and and was you know, went to sleep on the floor in school one day.

So it has definitely had an impact, but we are continuing to talk about it. And gonna get them some help, some professional help just to make sure that this doesn’t, stay with them, and indefinitely.

Yes, Todd. That’s why I was in an imprint. We don’t Bulwark come through the door to our house and daughters five now about a year and a half ago, and it’s just like, How do you can’t explain it to them. Right? Like, you can’t really give them the context of what’s happening, but, like, the memory of that, like, of the seeing the bullet or being in the stairwell, Right?

It’s like that that sticks with them that, you know, you can see it churning in their little heads. So anyway, I’m glad that, that you guys are are talking it through. So you guys were able to get out, I guess, the next day, and but now there’s still folks over there, and I and that that’s something that you’re trying to work on.

Yeah. I mean, the first and and obvious, biggest priority is the hostages. Right. Many of whom are American who remain in Gaza, the Hamas has not given any information to anyone about them. They’re not allowing the International Red Cross to even come in, which is required by the Geneva Convention.

And everyone has no idea what’s going on with them. And there are babies without their parents who are there. There’s an eighty five year old Holocaust survivor who requires medicine every day. And no one has any idea what is going on or what condition they’re in. And this is a terrorist group who has captured and is keeping hostages, and we need to remember that.

There are many Americans, in Gaza, in, also in, of course, in Israel, who are trying to get home. There are a lot in my district, which is a very heavily Jewish district, and it was the holiday of Coat when many Jews go to Israel. So there was a disproportionate number of, of, Jews, especially from my district over there. And we’ve been working around clock just to make sure that we can document, track, and trace everybody who is over there and needs help and working with the state department. Many of them have been able to return home, and there’s still some over there that we’re continuing to, to work on.

Yeah. It does seem like DeSantis was going off on this for a while about how, you know, you gotta go on a boat to Cyprus or whatever, and they’re they’d sent up a plane from Florida over there. It does feel like this should be something that, like, the federal government should be able to get figured out. I have a hostage situation. Let’s put that aside for a second because that’s a a whole different bag of worms, but just You know, they’re folks.

That’s part

of the reason that I, along with, my fellow New York delegation members, congressman Es BayAD and Congressman Velasca has introduced the Safe Return Act, which it would do exactly what you’re saying. It’s not only that it’s complicated to get out. It’s that the people trying to get out must reimburse the state department or how what they spend, on getting them out. Which is pretty absurd when you’re in the middle of a war zone.

Yeah.

And so we have introduced this bill that would require the state department to pay for any transportation when the state department needs to intervene in a conflict zone and get American citizens out. Because exactly as you’re saying, it should not be that complicated, and it should not be an additional financial burden on people who are in jeopardy of their lives.

So president Biden is over in Israel. He was meeting with BB’s giving remarks several, I think, very stirring remarks in, in my view, both about the alliance with Israel, but also, yeah, you know, I think just a slight caution about maybe overzealousness and and the rage and anger and letting that consume, you know, the strategic decisions that need to be made about or responses, such as just a horrific inhuman attack. And so I’m just I’m wondering how you assess how the administration’s been doing, and also, you know, you’re over there and you have communication with folks in Israel, you know, how they’re feeling about about president Biden’s reaction.

Well, first and foremost, I have been so, impressed and proud of the leadership and the response that president Biden has exhibited over the last two weeks. I think he has hit the exact right note because this is not only a horrific terrorist organization that executed these awful attacks. They did so against a the lone democracy in that region in our strong Democratic ally that must be able to defend itself, and we must support them in doing so against a terrorist organization. I think president Biden’s leadership both just in terms of his stirring and powerful rhetoric as well as the decisions to move some of our military into the Eastern Mediterranean. A couple strike carrier strike forces are now over there as a deterrent.

To prevent this from escalating any further and really intensive diplomatic work with every one in the region, Israel, Egypt, but beyond. And certainly throughout the Middle East, to try to make sure this does not escalate beyond Israel and Gaza strip and that no other countries or terrorist organizations gets involved. I think that’s been incredibly important. It’s also really important. To make sure we recognize that Hamas is the enemy.

Hamas is the terrorist network that executed these attacks. Hamas is not the Palestinian people. And, one of the things I think the president has correctly emphasized is that we all need to do everything we can to protect innocent Palestinian civilians, Israel has been doing that by sending warnings about their pending attacks by urging them to evacuate to the south And with president Biden’s urging, both Israel and Egypt agreed to provide humanitarian relief to the Palestinians in the who have where effectively refugees now in their in their own territory. And that’s an essential part of this balance because Kamas uses the innocent civilians as human shields. And that is something that I think is little known but is really important.

They have discouraged Palestinian civilians from evacuating. And they put their terror networks and their command centers and their weapons within residential neighborhoods, even schools and under hospitals. And that’s an effort to use the innocent civilians as human shields. So It’s a a very difficult situation. But I think president Biden’s support of Israel’s right and obligation to defend itself.

Of the need to eliminate and eradicate Hamas, which will ultimately be better for the Palestinian people as well as the Israeli people. And making sure that we are doing everything we can to protect innocent civilians.

I wanna just do a couple of the critiques, maybe it’s not the right word from the that are coming from the left and just, you know, sort of see where you’re at on that the first one, I I have a little bit, you know, more sympathy towards. Obviously, there is a need and you know, those of us, of course, the Bulwark can also have been very much of the view that rhetorically and diplomatically, we need to understand that we need to be with our ally, Israel, and I think president Biden’s done a good job with Eventually, though this moves into more of a military operation and and our partner and ally there in BB you know, who knows exactly what kind of the next strategic approach is gonna be? And I think there’s maybe some concerns about, you know, doing a a ground invasion without a real plan. Like, what what is your sense for that? And, like, when you’re talking to folks in administration, balancing, like, being supportive of Israel and not you know, getting sucked into a quagmire.

Well, look, I I think, just looking at what has happened over the last week, It was last Friday that Israel gave a twenty four hour warning for a million people, in the northern part of Gaza to evacuate to the south. That obviously was not going to happen within twenty four hours, but nothing has happened for almost a week now. And I think that’s a reflection of ongoing dialogue about, the best way to handle this. But let’s not forget. Every single day that we do not recover the hostages in Gaza, it is less likely that we will be able to recover them safely.

And that has to be a priority and time is of the essence. So I I wouldn’t expect president Biden to micromanage Israeli military. I think he had really important and, meaningful conversations with prime minister Netanyahu and so far, I think Israel has shown a compassion for the Palestinian civilians while also focusing on the task at hand, which is to eliminate Abbas and to get those hostages home.

Yeah. Where are you at as far as views on, like, hope for getting these hostages. I like you said, I do think this that is the prime issue right now, and it feels very daunting almost feels like an understatement. Like, what what’s your sense for, like, that process?

Yeah. I I agree with you. And the longer it goes and we don’t hear anything, the more fearful I get. The one, I guess, hope is that I am pretty sure that Khamas took at least, a number of the hostages because they want to have something to swap in return for Hamas or, Palestinian prisoners. And so there is an incentive for them to keep hostages safe and alive.

And then we can deal with that on on the back end, but you know, with with a an organization that committed the sub human horrific attacks on, innocent lives by burning people live, reports are that eighty percent of those who were killed were tortured raping people just unspeakably awful awful things. It’s, you know, the it’s it’s you hate to imagine what, what might the, the hostages be going through?

Slacing on the hostages doesn’t that That also becomes a bit of a tough call on what to do, right, you know, because Israel in the past has been willing to deal with them on this, on hostages, and you know, it was the IDF hostage trade that happened in the past. One of the, hostages that was released back. Was one of the organizers of this, reportedly. Right? And so you get into this situation where I I think that there’s a lot of rhetoric that comes from a concerning rhetoric that comes from the left about absolutism on this when when the quest questions about how to handle Hamas, when you’re when you’re dealing with somebody that is not playing by the laws of war, that is not a reliable partner.

You know, how how how do you think what it is the right way to kind of now to balance that?

Well, look, I think we need to remember right now as Americans that a terrorist organization is holding approximately a dozen American citizens as hostages. And if Al Qaeda were doing that, if ISIS were doing that, you can bet that our military would be right there involved. And and I frankly don’t think that we, you know, should leave this up to the Israelis alone. And I think that, it needs to be a very aggressive, wholesome, and fulsome approach to getting these hostages back. And the reality is it’s gonna be dangerous and it’s gonna be difficult, but it’s very hard to get hostages back if you’re not on the ground.

And air strikes, you know, can can certainly devastate infrastructure and command centers and weapons, but they also run the risk of actually hitting hostages. So that is why I think it is ultimately going to be imperative. That there is a ground invasion, in an effort to get the hostages back.

Well, I appreciate how stalwart you are on this. Obviously, this is, you know, where many of us are here at the Bullwork. We did the whole episode last week on this. I just want to ask one question, but how, like, how concerned are you about The views that you’re expressing there, to say the least are not, maybe the majority view on campus these days. You know, a lot of younger folks, particularly on the left.

Have, been critical of Biden, critical of Democrats, critical of Israel for the response, or even a few members of your, of your caucus that, have been critical. I’ve proceeded to leave with. It’s been more critical of Biden than she has been a famas, by my account so far. So Are you concerned at all about that fracture? And and how do you how do you see those questions coming from the left?

Well, I I’m concerned as much about sort of the, misunderstanding that appears to exist about what is going on. This is not a continuation of the cycle of violence between Israelis and Palestinians, you know, that we’ve unfortunately become accustomed to. Gaza is not the West Bank where the Palestinian authority controls it. Their security search services often work with Israelis. They have recognized Israel and it’s right to exist.

Hamas is in total control in Gaza, and it’s a terrorist organization. And it executed one of the worst terrorist attacks ever. So this is entirely separate, really from the the conflict that it seems like a lot of people on the left are lumping this in with. And what I hope people will recognize and doubt that many are listening here, from the left, but from the far left. But I I do hope that they will recognize that you know, this is not a war between Israel and the Palestinians.

This is a war between Israel and a terrorist organization, Hamas, that is Obviously, unworkable as a peace partner with Israel, but is also very detrimental to the Palestinian people. Hamasas has received billions of dollars from cutter and through other sources over the last fifteen years. And the majority of that, I would guess, a certain significant amount of it has been a repurposed for their own terror network. And their own, military activities, their own violence. And it was intended always for the Palestinian people, but they did not invest schools or roads or infrastructure or the economy.

And so part of the reason why the Palestinians are in such terrible shape in in Gaza is because of Hamas and that there’s they’re terrible for them. So the pathway to peace has to include eliminating Hamas. And I am optimistic that once this is over, and Hamas is removed and defeated, that we can figure out in conjunction with allies all around the world, from the Arab world, from Europe, United States Israel that we can figure out a pathway where there can be a government that is will recognize Israel’s right to exist unlike Hamas and will be a good faith partner in peace that can oversee the Gaza strip.

A Palestinian government?

I think it would may have to be. Yeah. I mean, I certainly, I think that we’re gonna need you know, our variety of, Arab countries to be involved in the process of rebuilding Gaza. They different version in some ways of the Marshall plan is I think the way that this is we’re gonna have to look at this, and it’s gonna have to be a collaboration among many different countries with an effort to, acknowledge Israel’s right to exist and within its borders and to figure out a way of whether it’s the Palestinian authority or, some other government to, lead the way in in Gaza.

When you’re talking about the Arab Partners, where were you on? Obviously, this is, I’m sure been waylaid now given events. But, like, where were you on the talks between the Biden administration and the Saudis on, you know, kind of expanding the Abraham accords, if you will?

Well, I’m I’m I’m broadly very supportive of it. Obviously, you would need to understand. I would need to understand the details. But I think the Abraham accords were a great step forward and normalization with Saudi Arabia would be an even bigger step forward for Israel. And I also think it would be a path forward toward peace because I would imagine that once Saudi Arabia normalizes relationships with Israel recognizes the state of Israel, that it will have a much more vested interest in the Israeli Palestinian relationship and can be of great assistance in helping to facilitate a, peaceful pathway in the Middle East.

I’m a little skeptical about We can for another day. We can we can we can delay that. I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not I’m not so sure that’s the case, but, I don’t I also just don’t know if there’s a good answer.

So, I think it I think it’s as good answers any. Let’s go into a little more amusing, equally serious, but more amusing territory. Sydney Powell, the kraken was brought against her today in Georgia, your former prosecutor. What is your analysis of the fact that she plead guilty, as part of this Rico statute. Does that signal to you that she’s gonna participating, testifying against the former president?

Does it change your view of that Rico case at all? What what’s your what’s your sense of that?

Well, my immediate assessment is that she didn’t wanna go to jail. And that ultimately was the driving force. She ended up pleading guilty to, lesser offenses. I don’t have five or six misdemeanors, and it appears as if the sentencing recommendation will be probation. So we she will avoid jail.

But my understanding is that she’s also required to testify truthfully in any future proceedings, which means that she will have to testify against Donald Trump. And what I think really jumps out and it should be on everybody’s mind is you can talk about the merits of a case or the political ramifications of these cases, but If any of these people are charged, are convicted rather, they will go to jail, and they don’t wanna go to jail. And so you can be out there and Donald Trump can be out in the public claiming it’s, you know, a radical whatever he says, you know, the trying to politically get him and election interference, all these bogus arguments. But those arguments are not allowed in the courtroom. They will have nothing to do.

With the jury’s decision on whether or not, he is guilty or not guilty. And the result of a guilty verdict is jail time. And I think Sydney Powell as a lawyer and as a former prosecutor herself understands that and got out quick. Which is generally the smart thing to do. You wanna be the first one in if you can.

And that’s exactly what Sydney Powell did. So it should be a signal to many of the other defendants in these cases, of what’s coming down the road.

Trump’s gonna have a busy court schedule. Next, next spring, the presumptive Republican nominee. Where are you on the Hope meter? As far as whether, like, there could be a legal resolution, I guess, to the Jack Smith case before I don’t know, the Republican convention. I don’t know next summer.

Like, is that is that even feasible? And if so, are you concerned at all about the argument that there is political reasons not to do that, right? Like putting on your prosecutor hat, right, that, like, that there’s backlash that We, you know, who knows. And, obviously, we’ve seen threats, domestic terror threats from Trump supporters.

Yeah. Look, my my prosecutor had would lead me to say that you should not consider any of that. If we are to treat every citizen equally under the law. Law applies equally, then you have to follow the facts of the evidence and charge what you believe. You can prove beyond a reasonable doubt to twelve jurors of your peers.

You know, the political ramifications of it are obviously on a lot of people’s minds, and as a you know, elected official, I I think about that as well. But the reality is that Donald Trump is fomenting this violence. And it would be completely perverse to say that because Donald Trump is acting so improperly, Perhaps even in some cases, illegally, as to try to foment political violence because of these cases, that we should therefore treat him differently and either drop the case or give him a plea offer, the generous plea offer, would have just incentivized this terrible, terrible behavior. And so I simply just I I think that it cannot be a consideration of the prosecutors as they’re moving forward, and it is incumbent upon, frankly, a lot of the Republicans and the House of Representatives who seemed to be doing the bidding of Donald Trump throughout this term and as his taxpayer funded defense lawyers, to call out Donald Trump’s inappropriate improper behavior that is causing violence around the country. Because he’s not gonna listen to me.

He’s not gonna listen to you. He may not listen to them, but the only ones that he will listen to are going to be his supporters. And they need to, find spine and stand up to him because someone’s gonna get killed.

You just gave me a new idea for the McHenry Dale. Instead of DC statehood, maybe just a line item for funding Jack’s Smith. You know, just ensuring the Jack’s Jack Smith funding for one more year, that that’s that’d do it for me. That’d get me on board for McHenry. Just Just one idea.

I’ll keep knocking that one around. Is it even feasible that the that the Jack Smith thing can be resolved next year before the election?

I think there’s a good chance, though, by no means certain that the election interfere the election overturning case in DC, will go to trial in March. I worry a little bit that there will be some appealable issue that Donald Trump will find that he could make what’s called an interlocutory appeal, which means he can appeal it immediately to the appellate court, which would then delay that process. But even if that trial goes forward, and he’s convicted at the end of March, he won’t get sentenced for a minimum of three months. Perhaps longer. Then there’s an appeal, and the question will be whether he is, on bail pending appeal, even if he is sentenced to jail.

So there are a lot of, questions.

And

would he have the ankle bracelet in that case?

Well, it depends on what the judge does after conviction. Because often your bail conditions will change at that point.

We’re doing a little never never trump or porn today. Speaker bacon, trump trump in an ankle bracelet. It’s pa you know? It’s all they’re making it possible for us to dream. You know, I wouldn’t generally I’m not the type to generally dream about these sorts of things, but they’re putting themselves in this with their behavior.

If you are a never trumper, Tim, I would suggest that you start dreaming about Donald Trump behind bars.

Okay.

Because that will be a much more serious than an ankle brace.

We’ve got vav, actually. It’s on with chilled. It’s chilled, and it’s been waiting in there. We we stopped opening up champagne bottles every time he was indicted after the after the second one because that’s just still starting to get expensive. I was starting to get a little spendy, popping a bottle every time.

I appreciate you you giving me a little bit, a little bit of hope on that. Okay. Well, one other thing. You’ve been a star of kind of oversight hearings pushing back on these guys. I’ve asked, I had all read and and and some of your other colleagues on on this.

You’ve been very strong on the Burisma thing. You know, I, like, just this whole notion that there was something there’s some problem there with shokin and like that, but, you know, I wrote about this Two years ago. Like that is all just nonsense. Like, what Biden was doing with the Ukrainian prosecutor was counter the what Burisma’s interests were. Okay.

Is there anything? Like, have you heard any in any of these hearings? Have you heard one thing that that gave you even a little bit of doubt that there might be something worth looking into here with regards to Hunter Biden and and the the financial issues.

No. I I really haven’t. And that’s why it’s such a a an abusive power that they’ve moved forward with an peachman inquiry based on, fiction. And what they are parroting is to simply false information, it’s lies. And what they are relying on is a complete misrepresentation of what the evidence actually shows.

And so, you know, as a former prosecutor who was trained to follow the evidence, and that’s what we did in the first impeachment. We got that whistleblower complaint. He released the transcript, with president Zelensky. And We then pursued an investigation, and we brought in seventeen witnesses who had firsthand knowledge of matters involving Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump, and Ukraine. And they painted a picture that was not painted by the staff or the members it was painted as it should always be by the witnesses and by the documents that we obtained.

And that’s how you do an investigation. What they have done here is they have jumped to conclusions, and they are desperately scrambling to backfill in some evidence to support those conclusions. But it doesn’t fit. And that’s the reverse of how you do an investigation. And now they got stuck because as we know Kevin McCarthy was held hostage by the right and Donald Trump himself, and they wanted an impeachment inquiry as retribution for Trump’s.

So they were just gonna go forward with it even if the evidence does not support it. And there’s just simply nothing in any of the bank records. There’s nothing in any of the documents. There’s nothing in any of the witness testimony that not the witnesses they brought in in their first hearing who had no firsthand knowledge, But in witnesses they’ve had behind closed doors who did work with Hunter Biden. And to a tee, everybody said Joe Biden had nothing to do with Hunter Biden’s business.

There was even a witness who came in who, was a bookkeeper for the president, previously, as well as Hunter Biden. And he said, There was never any money that was transferred from any of Hunter Biden’s business interests to Joe Biden. So the evidence is shows the opposite of what the Republicans are alleging. And the problem is that in our media world right now, they can parrot that in friendly media outlets on the right that get to a particular, leaning person who, would like to believe this, and it can infiltrate the the public body and that is really upsetting because it is pure lies.

Totally agree. You’ve done wonderful work on that committee. Really appreciate it. Okay. We’re out of time.

I I have I have other rapid fire questions I usually use, but in, you know, solidarity with our, Jewish friends this week, our final rapid fire question is this. I saw that you joined the Israeli professional basketball team recently. And so, we like to do Mount Rushmore’s here. We’re gonna do Jewish athlete, Mount Rushmore. I’m spotting you Sandy Cofax.

Yeah. I was gonna say Sandy Cofax, Hank Greenberg.

Oh, that’s a good one.

I got a good one for you. Rod Carroo. I believe.

Converted. It’s it’s in the song. It’s in Adam. It’s in Adam Sandler songs.

God, now I really gotta go back.

Danny at the w on the wizards. So the guy on the wizards. He’s really good. Danny, we’re gonna have to look into him.

Oh, and an israeli? Yeah.

On the on the Washington wizard, the Israeli guy. But if you have another one, you can go for it.

I’m I’m trying to think of like old school, Dolce’s, maybe?

Delf Denny Avdija Avdija. Denny. Okay. It’s Bailey Serbian. I check him out.

He, like, he brings together Israeli and my Nicole Yokic love with the Israeli Serbian one body. Okay. We’ll do more research. That was a good start. Rod Carroo is a good choice.

Dan Goldman Goldman, Thank you so much. I’m so happy that you and your family is safe. You’ve taken your time for this. Always welcome on the Bulwark stuff. How are this any time?

Thanks so much, Tim. It’s great to be

sip.