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Charlie Warzel: Alex Jones’ Footprint of Misery

August 16, 2022
Notes
Transcript

From Trump to Tucker, figures on the far-right are cribbing from the Alex Jones’ playbook — using outrageous antics to spread their message and creating their own information networks to inoculate themselves from any consequences. Charlie Warzel joins Charlie Sykes today.

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This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:08

    Happy Tuesday, and welcome to the Bullework Podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes on Tuesdays since I take Mondays off. A little bit of catch up to do and I was going over my notes about all the things I needed to catch up with, and I just kinda threw up my hands because the last time we did a podcast on Friday morning, we hadn’t yet seen the search warrant from Mar a Lago. Okay. Okay.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:30

    Doesn’t seem like a million years ago. It was Friday afternoon that we found out that the former president of the United States that his home was rated as part of an investigation, the violations up. The espionage act. And I mean, yes. That is an extraordinary story, but it’s merely one of the many extraordinary stories that we’re having to confront today.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:58

    I mean, Rudy Giuliani found out yesterday is the target of that Georgia Grand jury probe of attempts to overturn the election. Lindsey Graham went to federal court in order to block a subpoena death to testify under oath about his role in that same criminal investigation. Meanwhile, we’re learning that Trump’s team copied sensitive voting data from election systems in Georgia’s part of this secretive effort to access voting equipment. Another White House lawyer subpoenaed by the Federal Grand jury in Best getting January six, which is a completely different criminal investigation. And in a completely different criminal investigation, it looks like the former Trump Organization’s CFO, Alan Weiselberg, is about to plead guilty to criminal charges.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:40

    Last week, Donald Trump played the fifth amendment more than four hundred and forty times. And yet, Lot of folks in Trump world count all of this as a win for the president. So let’s talk about this amazing moment we are in now. You’re joined by Charlie Warzel. Contributing writer at the Atlantic also author of Galaxy Brain and newsletter about the Internet and big ideas.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:06

    Charlie, welcome back to the podcast.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:08

    Thank you for having me. That is quite a laundry list
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:10

    that you just read there. And I left off all sorts of stuff. I mean, I could have read through the various statutes that he violated. I don’t know about you, but on Friday afternoon, I was mowing the lawn, listening listening on my headphones to discussions on the cable shows of of what was in the search for. And it was like, even after six years, this stuff is jaw dropping.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:32

    The fact that the president basically took this super secret stuff, stuff that’s supposed to be not removed from gifts maybe about nuclear weapons and that he squirled away in Mar a Lago. I mean, that was jaw dropping. I mean, right? And or am I overreacting to that? No.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:51

    I
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:51

    don’t think I don’t think any of it’s an overreaction. And I I think I mean, to me, I’m sort of a nerd about just news in general in the way that it changes over the years. And to me, the idea that as much news that happened on on a Friday in mid August was just it was truly mind blowing to me. It’s sort of I I think it’s a great barometer for just like how what a precarious situation America is in right now that there is, like, in the in the time generally reserved for everyone just checking out and going on vacation and doing nothing. We’re in the midst of, like, a blockbuster political scandal.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:28

    Well and and also just watching Trump’s reaction to all this and watching the Republican party’s reaction to all of this. Again, has been extraordinary. You know, the party, the claim that it backs the blue, is now actually marketing hats, defunded the FBI. The attempts to de legitimize the judge, the grand jury’s, the Department of Justice, the FBI. You know that it’s already picking up momentum and this leads us into this won’t where you go.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:57

    You remember how really, really bad things were before? They’re about to get worse.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:03

    I mean, doesn’t it feel that way? It really does. I wanna say it was on Sunday and there was news of a of a man who drove his car. I I I might be butchering this, but into the into the capital and —
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:15

    Yeah. —
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:16

    ultimately committed suicide by cop, I think, and either that alongside the the man who went in in Cincinnati to the FBI building and and tried to engage in some light domestic terrorism there, and you’re just seeing the guy in the guy in Pennsylvania who’s
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:33

    arrested and charged for into slaughter federal agents. Right. We call police state scrum. I mean, these people are actually doing this is happening. This is not theoretical.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:42

    Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:42

    And and the places on the Internet that I spend amount of time, you know, going on to places like truth social, the Trump social media network, or or just, you know, odd corners of TikTok or Twitter or what have you. I mean, you are watching people very earnestly. Say that, you know, the IRS agents are going to come for for our guns. They’re going to take our guns away, and and we are we are actively prepping for a civil war. And, you know, it sounds ridiculous, but these are real people who really are believing this and and really, you know, taking some kind of preparation action.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:24

    And it’s it’s it’s it’s genuinely frightening. Like, I I, again, for for just a what’s supposed to be a very quiet summer month, I I really think the tensions have escalated considerably over the past two and a half weeks in a
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:38

    in a frightening way. Okay. So Donald Trump is actually out there doing his normal thing. I mean, this is this is what look, I I I’ve I’ve I’ve said this before. I don’t think that Donald Trump is a strategic genius, but he’s got this reptilian cunning, this reptilian instinct.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:54

    So he calls in yesterday to was it trunk digital or whatever? You know, amid all of the violence that we’re talking about. Let me just read you with a time magazine report. In such a fraught moment, Trump returned on Monday to a playbook he previously used on January six two thousand twenty one, seemingly offering to help calm his supporters while actually feeding their anger by this ascribing that anger as justified. So he tells Fox News digital that the country is in a very dangerous position, whatever we can do to help.
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:24

    Because the temperature has to be brought down in this country. If it isn’t, terrible things are going to happen. And then, of course, he added the people of this country are not going to stand for another scam. So I don’t know about you. This just strikes me.
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:39

    And of course, Trump world, even the anti Trumpers will say, see, well, he’s calling, he’s actually wanting to reduce the temperature. He’s concerned for the first time Donald Trump wants to play a constructive role. I, on the other hand, read that as basically a going, nice country you got there would be a real machine if something was to happen to it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:01

    Exactly. It’s it’s it’s honestly the language of of an abusive spouse or a partner or some kind. Right? Where it’s, you know, it’s like, well, I I have to, you know, I have I have no choice but to, you know, but to be violent. Or or I think if I’ve seen it compared to, like, you know, an an arsonist who set fire to a house and says, you know, I think we I think we all need to come together and put out this fire.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:24

    So it’s Or they
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:25

    go back to your views with that. Look what you made me do to you. Right. And that seems to be the implication, like, you know, that he reached out to Merrick Garland, you know, attorney general boy, while you’re doing all this, I just hate to tell you it’s really bad out there. Just something free to keep in mind.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:40

    So here’s another thing and then you you would have studied this for so long. It’s sometimes worth slowing down to think about stuff as opposed to letting it all wash over you. The fact that one of the things that Trump is throwing out there where he’s throwing the shit up against the wall is, well, you know, there there was nothing, you know, nothing illegal. No no classified documents at Mar a Lago. But if there were, they were planted by the FBI.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:08

    Here’s a former president of the United States suggesting that the basically, the O. J. Simpson defense, they planted the evidence there. All of his explanations keep shifting. They are mutually contradictory.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:19

    And But Trump here’s the Republicanistic. Trump knows that he can get away with this stuff. Right? I mean, people out there and this is what scares me, Charlie. Is that there are millions of people who, at some level, know he is bullshitting them, know that he’s lying, and they don’t care and and he knows that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:41

    This is what he has figured out that he can say this stuff and they will still back him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:47

    Yeah. He he learned very early on, I guess, in his life in general, but but also in the, you know, in the twenty sixteen election. He learned so early on that there were just no consequences for — Yeah. — for shameless behavior. And then in fact, shameless behavior was really almost a cheat code.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:05

    Right? That if if you can’t be chasinged by, you know, corrections in the media or by, you know, your opponents speaking out and calling you liar, whatever, what have you. It really is kind of this cheat code to be able to do whatever it is that that you wanna do. And in terms of an of an audience, I mean, I used to fret a lot while covering this stuff of what do these politicians believe and what do the supporters believe and is everyone just playing along? And and I just I don’t think it matters anymore.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:35

    You know, I think I I’ve always go back to and it’s it’s it’s this is not a new analogy, but it just it’s it’s like a sports team, you know. Like, it is it is so tribal in that way. That the mega movement has just become an identity. Right? And it’s more about the relationships between different people on that side and preserving them and preserving this culture that they are building of, you know, essentially a minority rule.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:02

    And I think that it strictly does not matter. It only matters who is saying what. Right. No matter what what’s
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:08

    being said. Oh, man. I and and and and you see this in, again, the the shifting arguments that that the big lie for example, they’re they’re just pretax. I mean, it it so as soon as you refute some fact, something else comes up because it’s all noise at this point. It’s all noise.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:28

    And this is part of the problem that that, I I guess, you you you struggle against sort of nihilism and just fair that nothing matters because all of the arguments to principle and evidence, you know, you flip a coin, and if it was on the other side, they would be making exactly the opposite arguments. Right? It’s like, what argument do I need to make to support the tribe? What principle do I need to pretend to uphold when it’s never the principles, never about the evidence, never about the logic. It’s just I have to say these things.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:57

    And so our political discourse does often just feel like complete noise. And and you will find it’s it’s exhausting, isn’t it? To to go back and say, well, this is what you said a few years ago under the opposite circumstances and, you know, what about this hypocrisy? That hypocrisy is just like built in now. Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:16

    It’s just a complete flip. And
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:17

    it doesn’t really work to change minds. My my colleague at the Atlantic had a had a great interview that came out either a a couple of days ago and maybe even yesterday about this idea that stop the steel is is a metaphor. It’s not about voter fraud. It’s it’s this idea that basically, liberal whites or people in metro areas are are illegitimate. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:42

    And they’re changing America
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:44

    — In these —
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:45

    yeah. In in these you know, illegitimate ways. So stop the steel is this metaphor. I thought that’s such a great way to think about all of this. You know, it doesn’t matter what the actual content is.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:56

    It’s this idea that if a certain group of people are trying to have any say in the direction of the country, they are not legitimate because they don’t represent the real ideals, the real, you know, legitimate citizens of America. And that’s very difficult to to counter because it’s not it has nothing to do with policy or or even really ideas. It’s just about who’s behind them. And and, again, that’s that’s it leads us to some dark places, I think. Alright.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:24

    Speaking of a of a dark place, I actually said something yesterday that
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:29

    that shocked me that I said it, not because I I disagree with it, but because I think it’s self evidently true. So I I was on the deadline White House yesterday on MSNBC, and John Isleman was sitting in from the cold wallace. And he asked a very provocative question. I don’t I don’t remember whether he you know, this was a throwaway question up, but he asked a very, very direct question. Could the GOP actually nominate someone who was under indictment for espionage?
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:58

    And he only had a chance for one word answer. And I said yes. I think I said yes. Absolutely. And then afterwards, I thought, oh god, what did you just say?
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:09

    Imagine a man under federal indictment for espionage being nominated by a major political party And I guess the more I think about it, the more I think of of course they would. Who who’s gonna stop them? Trump would be waving the bloody shirt of his martyrdom. Right? So what do you think is is that extreme?
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:25

    Have I have I gone into some dark place to think that that even under indictment, that Donald Trump would insist that you must rally around me, you must vindicate, you know, the Orange God King, and and that they would. I don’t know if he’d win but that the republic I mean, who’s gonna stop? I mean, Rhonda sand is gonna run against him? What do you think? I
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:44

    think as long as conditions hold that that’s a totally understandable position to take. You know, I I mean, I think what is always fascinating about this party, specifically the the Republican party of of today, is it really is about raw power and it has nothing to do with ideas of propriity and electability in that way in legality and, you know, all that is thrown out the window. It’s simply who has the most control of the base because I think I think a very real thing if you talk to if you really kind of develop relationships and and talk to some of these elected officials on the right, there’s a palpable fear of their base. Like, they are afraid. I mean, this goes back to, you know, all the initial kind of nations of January sixth followed by three days later, sort of seeing how it’s playing with the base and realizing, oh, well, I guess I I guess I need to, you know, talk about how this was antifa or this was actually a, you know, an FBI plot or or, you know, blown out a proportion and it was it was a peaceful protest.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:50

    Because the base has this sort of like hostage, like, control of the party. And I really do think, you know, with a number of Republican leaders who who’ve been in elected office for, you know, pre Trump. I think that there is this this palpable fear of crossing them. And Trump represents they’re sort of idle. So as long as that holds, there’s absolutely no reason to go against that in in my mind.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:14

    I I think,
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:15

    you know, indictment be damned. So one of the great fears is they didn’t wanna end up like Liz Cheney, which I think speaks volumes about it. They well, if I speak out, I’m going to, you know, lose my my seat in congress. Which is the worst thing that I can imagine. So it is interesting that they would see Liz Cheney.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:31

    Tell me, really, disagree with me. They see Liz Cheney as a cautionary tale rather than, like, wow. You know, what would it be like to actually stand for something and be courageous because they look at her and they go, she’s not gonna be a member of Congress anymore. And and I can’t imagine anything worse than that. I mean, that is my that is my greatest fear.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:52

    Not losing my soul, not not supporting something that’s illegal, not not being part of of a interaction, but seeing what’s happened with Liz Cheney in saying that is the faith, I fear more than anything else. I was talking to somebody a couple months back in the Obama administration who was very
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:09

    close with a lot of people in Congress and was and I was expressing a lot of the same fears that that we’re expressing here. And and they said that one thing that is is heartening is they they know in their in their hearts that these these people who have seemingly, you know, gone along with the the Magna playbook or or what have you, don’t actually believe any of this stuff. Don’t or, you know, they’re they’re just afraid to lose their jobs. They’re just that is the the trading figure. And And they they thought that that was kind of like something that, you know, was keeping them optimistic about, you know, or from spiraling, you know, totally into into dark territory.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:51

    But I actually sort of see the opposite of that, which is I mean, if that is the primary motivation, if job security is the be all end all primary motivation above you know, your country above obligations to, you know, your office, to our democracy. I mean, that’s as grim as it get to me. Yeah. The idea that you can just, you know, take up these ridiculous conspiracies and and fake reality is all in service of preserving your job so that you can get a lobbying gig in the other side of it is very upsetting to me.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:25

    Speaking of conspiracy theories, let’s talk about Alex Jones because you had a great piece last week. About Alex Jones. And and I wanna wanna start with with this thing. I mean, one of the reason why Jones is not a fringe figure, why I keep coming back to him. You you wrote that everybody on the far right these days seems to be cribbing from Alex Jones.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:49

    Love this this paragraph where you’re writing about Tucker Carlson. Tucker’s resting interview phase, for example, is patently ridiculous and punchable, but it’s also this memorable weird thing that maybe catches people’s attention that are flicking through the channels. Theirens that run-in the shows are geared toward being a screenshot and an outrage shared on Twitter than they are toward helping his audience.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:11

    So Jones has
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:13

    gone from an absolutely absurd figure who should in a rational you know, completely fictitious Earth two point o, be a pariah, to being a role model even for Tucker Karl What is the relationship between Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones? It’s complicated. Yeah. It’s I
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:32

    mean, and and there’s a lot we we don’t know that may actually be revealed from the messages in his phone, which have been turned over to certain committees. So the context of this is a few years back, I’ve befriended or, you know, as a, you know, reporting sense, this man named Josh Owens who won a contest when he was in college, a video editing contest that Infowars was doing. He was a self described angry young man from a conservative family. And he started listening to Alex Jones, sort of like the conspiracy side of it for the humor effect. You know, he found it kind of funny, but he also kind of agreed with a lot of the anti Bush, anti Obama sort of anti establishment sense that Jones had for a long time.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:21

    So, you know, I think it was two thousand twelve. He won this contest. And Jones invited him to join Info Wars as a video editor. And he did and he spent between, I think, two thousand twelve, two thousand thirteen to two thousand seventeen with Jones, which is really sort of the descendants of him into sort of popular like real popular culture and and political relevance. And we met in twenty nineteen after I had profiled Jones.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:47

    He was this shadowy source that never came through for me. And I and some other people helped him get this essay talking about working for Alex Jones and how full he was and and expressing a lot of the regret that he felt personally for his involvement in Info Wars. And that got published in twenty nineteen in the Times. And since we’ve just sort of kept up a reporter source relationship. We talk whenever Alex is in the news.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:14

    And and he spoke with me about watching the trial. So that was the context of why I was talking to him. And he during that time told me sort of out of the blue that you know, one time in I wanna say it was twenty sixteen. I might have have that wrong in my notes. Tucker visited the Infowars offices in Austin, Texas and kind of piled around for the day with Jones.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:39

    And Jones was showing him nine eleven videos, trying to get him to, you know, kinda come around to the nine eleven conspiracy theory. But as it was described to me, it was this sort of kind of friendly collegial time. And, well, Josh, the former info wars employee, isn’t sure whether, you know, Tucker was there to, like, pick up you know, tips and tricks about how to do his job. It’s very clear that he sees Alex as some kind of contemporary. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:08

    Like, he might not say that, but But it’s very clear that, you know, they’re in the same general business. And and so, you know, what what Josh told me is he sees bits of Alex in what Tucker does and he sees it increasingly, which I think is important that there’s there’s more and more being cribbed from that playbook. And the thing that I pointed out was Alex is popular or Alex gets his popularity to crossover sometimes to the mainstream when he’s outlandish. Right? So it it’s almost this like Trojan horse.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:41

    For some of the ideas. You know, Alex Jones’ most famous clip is he’s yelling about chemicals in the water that are turning frogs gay. Right? And he’s screaming about it. And it’s this it was for a very long time on the Internet this viral clip because it’s ridiculous.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:55

    But at the heart of it is a conspiracy theory. And Tucker sometimes is the same way. Right? He will throw up some ridiculous Kyron on his show and or, you know, he’ll have that ridiculous phase as he interview somebody about, you know, gypsies or, you know, what have you. And people will screenshot that and say, meanwhile, on Fox News, you know, put that on Twitter
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:19

    or or, you
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:20

    know, some of his ridiculousness just kinda comes out. And that does the job of actually spreading Tucker around. You know, it it Like, his his message is is sort of quietly being spread as people are trying to say, look at this ridiculous guy. So what is the appeal? How does it work?
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:38

    You probably seen
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:39

    Jack Schaeffer in political reading about the lie economy that lying is more lucrative than truth telling outrageous lies, pay better than moderate
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:47

    lies, because
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:48

    advertisers of sketchy products pay top dollar to reach presorted, maximally, credulous audiences. I mean, what is the appeal? For millions of people to buy into this. Why does it work? Because I mean Tucker Tucker looks at Alex Jones and goes, okay, this works.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:06

    How if I am, like, slightly more, you know, uptown on this, you know, how can I profit from it? What is the
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:13

    appeal? I think if I had to narrow it down to one thing, it would be simplicity. I think that life is very difficult for a lot. Most people. Truly, most people.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:25

    Life is difficult. It is complicated. It is shades of gray. It is sometimes some people sometimes your your worst enemy has a good point, you know, like like it’s it’s it’s the world is complex and people, especially like Alex, offer absolute simplicity. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:43

    You feel absolute knowledge. Yeah. You feel a certain way. Well, I can tell you exactly why. And guess what?
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:49

    It’s because the people you hate are doing it to you. Right? Or the people who aren’t like you, who are others. Are are actually doing that. It it offers these very simple ideas to sort of make sense.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:02

    These simple frameworks to make sense of the world. And they are tailor made to fit into the places where you might feel the grieved or the places where you might feel scared. Right? The people people who don’t look like you moving into your neighborhood. Well, there you go.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:16

    It’s like that’s why you feel so bad. Right? Or or people who, you know, have a different relationship to faith or live in different part of the country that doesn’t really make sense to you. Well, here you go. They’re pedophiles and, you know, they’re trying to groom our children.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:31

    Like, I think why these bigger lies sell so well is because the bigger the lie the more simple it is. You know? Like, these conspiracies are are very, you know, like, taste something like queuing on. It’s it’s it’s it’s an incredibly complex web of stupid theories. But at the heart of it, it’s very simple.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:53

    Right? It’s a very simple idea. It’s the people have taken over your government. The reason you when you look outside and you feel like you don’t recognize your country, this is why. You can go as deep as you want into it, but the
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:05

    lie is huge and simple. But this is why it is so crucial to understand this because I don’t think you can understand Donald Trump or the appeal of Donald Trump. Or the role of Fox News without understanding what Alex Jones has done and his appeal. And as you describe Jones as the nation’s second most prominent conspiracy theorist, and we all know who the most prominent conspiracy theorist is. And this is the world that we live in now.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:32

    Which is mind boggling when you think of, you know, why is Alex Jones not a fringe figure disdained by anyone. Why does anyone in journalism quote him? And that’s one of the themes why no one should ever quote this guy. Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:50

    So talking with Josh about this, I mean, it confirmed a lot of things I’ve been feeling for a long time. But, I mean, a great example is with this trial, right? Alex, has been sort of chased in lightly by the legal system, you know, facing fifty million dollars and damages suits to the Sandy Hook parents. He’s sort of has to at least in the courtroom play a little bit nice. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:12

    Or Stifle his his usual schtick. And
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:16

    As a
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:16

    result, he has said on the stand, I believe that Sandy Hook actually happened. I don’t believe it’s a hoax. Now, this was the thing that ended up, you know, week and a half ago whenever the if I can’t remember, time is a flat circle now. Right. Whenever whenever
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:32

    when his
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:33

    trial was, That ended up being the headline. Right? Alex Jones says blank. Well, that’s that’s a good headline for Alex Jones. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:39

    If you don’t follow this stuff, you say, oh, look, the conspiracy guy, like, he’s come around. And that’s, you know, your interaction with it. But Alex Jones has said this dozens of times and then walked it back and then whatever. You know, that’s what he
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:52

    does. He
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:53

    just plays and dances on the line in the second that it looks like he’s actually gonna face some consequences. He tiptoes back over into Oh, no. I’m a reasonable guy territory. It’s all BS and quoting him on this stuff. He’s such an unreliable narrator of absolutely everything.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:10

    He’s such a a glowy eating liar that it doesn’t do any good to quote somebody like Alex Jones because you you never know whether it’s the truth or not or where to go. So what what’s the point? All you’re doing is sort of spreading his propaganda for him. So what
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:27

    effect will this trial have on him? You know, he’s been deformed before he plays the martyr victim card finds a way to monetize that. Is it wish casting to think that losing a fifty million dollar verdict is gonna be a bump at the road for him? Well,
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:43

    unfortunately, for Jones, and I’m not by any stretch familiar with all of the law here, but I believe there is a cap on the damages suits in Texas that’s gonna make it difficult for him to pay more than, I think, like, a million and a half dollars in total. So some of the discovery has shown that, you know, Jones is making tens, if not, hundreds of millions of dollars off of his store and selling vitamins and supplements and conspiracy stuff. He’s got a lot of money. So this is kind of a drop in the bucket for him. It’s certainly not gonna hurt his relationship to his audience.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:16

    If anything, he will use this as what Alex does is anytime he gets in trouble, he uses that to say, I am hovering over the target here. I am so close to to really actually identifying, like, you know, I’ve gotten under their skin so much. Look what they’re doing. They’re coming after me. They’re trying to drain my funds.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:36

    Please donate to the Infowars cause, and you know what, it works. It’s it’s not gonna hurt, I don’t think his bottom line too much. Now there’s there’s a series there’s two more of these defamation trials. Maybe three, I can’t quite keep track. You know, this could add up some judge in Connecticut could really go after him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:55

    You know, it’s too early to know. But I think that we can’t overlook the fact that his texts have been turned over to the January sixth Commission. Now I know they end, I believe, in mid twenty twenty. So before the twenty twenty election, which might be difficult there. But you know, there could be stuff in there that could put him in in truly, you know, hot water from a almost like a treason standpoint.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:26

    Again, who knows? But that seems like a potential avenue for for some real legal jeopardy.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:34

    Tell me about your encounter with with Alex Jones personally back in two thousand seventeen when you were over at BuzzFeed, you wrote about all of these supplements that were being flogged on in full wars and you reported that they’re really no different than what you could get at Walmart or GNC just a lot more money. And Alex Jones was
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:54

    really pissed off about this. Yeah. A little extra context to that is I wrote this big long profile of him and I ended up being one of the first reporters to show up at his custody trial that ended up being this sort of big national thing. And and really kind of dug into his life, interviewed dozens of former employees and wrote this pretty scathing piece that I thought, you know, he would be pretty mad about. And it it it reached his radar he talked about on the show, but we’d never you know, I think he seemed to like having the sort of combative nature of of the mainstream media against him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:28

    Cut to, like, four months later, I decided I bought a bunch of InfoWorse supplements and I sent them to this lab that analyzes supplements. Because I wanted to see like, you know, these aren’t supplements aren’t FDA approved. You know, are these bad for you? Are they good for you? Are they snake oil?
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:46

    And found out that they’re basically, as you said, like, they’re just high priced markups of stuff you can get anywhere else. And he was furious. I had tried to contact and, like, talk to him on the phone for for that profile, so he had my number and he never got back to me. And I was I was on a run-in Montana where I was living at the time, and it was the middle of the afternoon, and I published the story the day before, and he Face timed me. I was on a run and I said, well, you know, if Alex Jones FaceTime’s, you gotta pick it up.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:17

    Yes. And I picked up and I was, like, red faced and sweaty. And somehow, on the other line, he was more red faced and sweaty despite just like being in his office. And he yeah. He was furious.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:29

    And you you know, the reason I I think that story is interesting is because it it speaks to hitting Jones where it hurts is that’s the profit center. Right? Anything that jeopardizes the store. Is really what jeopardizes infowards itself. And I think that that’s an important thing for people to remember.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:45

    And it’s also what makes all of this kind of scary because the other part of that story is he told me, you’re gonna regret this. I’m going to talk about this story on the air and we’re gonna run a buzzfeed sale on our products. And he did. And I, for a long time, didn’t know what effect that had or didn’t have, you know, if it was just bit of trolling against me. And in the discovery of this Sandy Hook defamation trial, some of the Infowars profits store profits were released and having to post got a hold of the document in January.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:20

    And I remember I scrolled through to find the day or to after my story published when they ran this sale. And lo and behold, there was a a sizable bump in, you know, like and we’re talking, like, tens of thousands of dollars in their revenues. And so what was so difficult or depressing, I guess, about that was I was trying to do my job as a reporter to understand what he was selling, what he was doing, to try to expose the fact that he’s basically just marking up vitamins and all it did was help him. She played right into his hands and it sort of shows how Jones, but now you’re seeing it with people like Tucker and sort of the Fox News digital subscription app. These fringe figures or I guess popular figures now are just on the on the far right, are building these networks, these information networks, where they have this ability to, you know, amplify sort of maximum amplification and like maximum impunity.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:22

    Right? They are just inoculated from having consequences because their subscribers will support them. And it’s it’s a very difficult situation to get into, you know, when you’re not beholden to advertisers, when you’re not beholden to anyone saying, hey, we think this is reprehensible. We’re gonna collect money. It makes them sort of bulletproof.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:42

    Right? I
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:42

    mean, as as long as they keep giving the folks, you know, the stronger math all the time, they keep them hooked, then they don’t have to worry about blowback or boycotts or being deplatformed. Howard Bauchner: Yeah,
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:53

    exactly. And one of the things that the infowars stafford Josh Owens told
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:58

    me that
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:59

    was, you know, very revealing to him was, as soon as Alex got deplatform, he just spun that into into a way to, you know, raise more money to to double down with his current audience and to recruit more audience to say, Like, he changed the name of his of his of his platform to band dot video. Right? He he became the most censored man in America And it was it was a it was a a useful marketing tactic. And so this is something that I think is is really genuinely a difficult thing to think through for journalists or really anyone who’s trying to hold Jones or people like him to account, which is how do you do that? Can he successfully be held accountable for any of this, even through the legal system?
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:51

    And and I think you see it with with all sorts of people, the Daily Stormers near near yeah. The neo Nazi. I think his I think his name’s Andrew Anglin. He got in all this legal trouble up in Montana for his involvement in the harassment of this woman in Whitefish. And there was a trial and he wouldn’t show up to the trial.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:12

    He was apparently out of the country in some way hiding out. And there was you know, a multimillion dollar judgment rendered against him that he had to pay in damages. And so far, he’s never even been found. I I I think people know where he is, but he’s basically, like, beyond the the reach of the legal system in that way. Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:33

    And so it’s just it’s a very sobering thing to think about the fact that if you again are are so shameless. If you have no decency whatsoever, if you refuse to comply, if you flee the country, you know, in order to to get away from this stuff and and no one’s gonna spend the time to extra night you or whatever. This is actually an example of people avoiding, you know, all culpability for horrific things that they’re doing. And and that’s a very scary kind of precedent to set. Well, and
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:02

    and especially because when you see it in the political world as well. So speaking of of the guy who was the video editor, this Josh Owens, You tell the story about how how he goes out on one of these Alex Jones Roadshows and and sees the people who are the fans. I know asked about this before, but he said there there were those who took it all very very seriously. And then there were those treated, like, was watching South Park. Like like, it was just an act.
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:23

    And every once in a while,
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:26

    Doesn’t Alex
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:26

    Jones basically imply that it’s just an act that he’s going through this? Right? I mean, Olin’s told you he doesn’t understand how people can feel like it’s an act. Because Jones doesn’t present himself, you know, is it anything other than deadly serious? People who disagree with them or demons or pedophiles.
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:42

    But the people who believe everything he says versus the people who really don’t necessarily believe it, but they love the show and they love the fact that people are you know, upset by it or triggered by it. I mean, is that part of the entertainment value? I mean, I think
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:57

    so, but I am perhaps too close to this that I’m sort of over the question of whether Jones believes this or whether he’s a performer or whether he’s and I know that’s not exactly what you’re asking, but — Yeah. — I just think it’s it’s the thing I get asked the most when people find out that, you know, I’ve spent a fair amount of time around Jones and or have this, you know, kind of historical knowledge of of his person. Is this, you know oh, so you believe everything he says. You know what? It kinda doesn’t matter because look at what he’s doing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:28

    A thing that had come up a lot in my conversations with Josh is this, you know, talking about being there at Info Wars during the time that he was doing all this Sandy Hook awfulness, that that Jones was doing all this. And and, you know, Josh has been he’s on his sort of his own you know, journey of of personal redemption and and, you know, he’s he’s doing all of all of those things and and he’s very honest about this and says, you know, I didn’t spend any time working on any Sandy Hook related stories or anything like that. And he said, but it doesn’t excuse the fact that I didn’t even really registered that was happening while I was there. And he and he said something near
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:11

    the end
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:12

    of our our interview that I that really kinda struck me and it was one of the reasons why it didn’t register is because this is just what he does with
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:22

    absolutely
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:22

    every news story. Anything that happens, any tragedy that happens in America or the world that he can latch onto and use for his own benefit to, you know, boost his own narratives, to go get people to buy stuff in the Infowars store, to scare people, to get them to, you know, donate money to him, whatever whatever he can use, whatever tragedy he can glom onto. He he will do that, and he does it every single day. He’s on the air for at least four hours a day, five and a half days a week. And what he was saying to me, I really, really resonated was Sandy Hook in some ways is obviously an outlier and how horrible it is.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:06

    But it’s just the template. There are a million of those examples of people who whose lives are made worse by the fact that Jones takes their tragedy and uses it for his own personal benefit. And I thought that that is just a it’s it’s a really good way to put in perspective the damage that this guy has done to you know, so many people and to just like the discourse in our in our country. And and and that’s why I don’t really care what he believes because when all is said and
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:40

    done, Alex Jones’
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:41

    footprint of destruction or or just, you know, misery is so great that It’s gonna be hard for people to, like, comprehend. Charlie Warzel
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:51

    is a contributing writer at the Atlantic also author of the Galaxy see brain and newsletter about the internet and big ideas. Charlie, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. Yeah. Thanks as always for having me. The Bologna podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Seres.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:08

    I’m Charlie Sykes. Thank you for the into today’s Bulwark podcast, and we’ll be back tomorrow and do this all over again. You’re worried about the economy. Inflation is high. Your paycheck doesn’t cover as much as it used to, and we live under the threat of a looming recession.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:28

    And sure, you’re doing K, but you could be doing better. The afford anything podcast explains the economy and the market detailing how to make wise choices on the way you spend and invest. Afford anything, talks about how to avoid common pitfalls, how to refine your mental models, and how to think about, how did they Make smarter choices and build a better life. Avoid anything wherever you listen.
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