Ben LaBolt and Will Saletan: The Stakes of the Moment

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. It’s a good morning here. President Biden was showing some Vaguer last night. We’ve more good economic days with an expectations beating two hundred seventy five thousand new jobs and a big win from the Denver nuggets last night. So I’m pleased to be here to discuss it with White House Communications Director, Ben Labolt.

We’re gonna hash out speech. And then after a break, we’ll get Will Salatin, to talk maybe about Katie Brit and, in her interesting performance last night and and maybe some other stuff. Labolt. Thanks for doing this, brother.

Glad to be here. Good to talk to you.

Yeah. I do have to do a disclaimer at the top, being better friends, and not like, Everyone in DC says that they’re friends, if they’ve met at a party one time before, but, Ben and I are friends. But I I will say our friendship was forged through disagreement and arguing back when I was a Republican flack. So we’re happy to disagree and we can we can survive that. So I don’t know if you have any hits on May from twenty twelve that you wanna get out of the way before we start then, but you can take one free shot if you want.

Well, I was hoping we could still argue a little bit today or find something to argue about. But, yeah, I mean, we’re kind of in a weird era now, right, where all of my Republican friends from back in the day who used to be competitors, and we we would get into arguments, sort of recognize the stakes of the moment now and agree on a lot more than we disagree on, which is both reassuring and concerning at the same time.

Yeah. You picked some good Republican friends because that’s not true for some of my old friends we can do that off there. Okay. I gotta start with the hard hitting question though. Sean Hannity, last night suggested that, the president was on something more than caffeine.

The former president accused Joe Biden of being on drugs, saying the drugs were wearing off late in the speech, and then a host on the blaze. I don’t know if you’re watching the blaze. But they asked if staff had painted his hands with smelling salts. And so my question to you is, did you participate in any foul play last night? Did you put anything on the president’s hands?

Yeah. I saw another, another one of those crazy channels say that he’d had a panera lemonade before the speech. I mean, what this is what’s so crazy is that mad Republicans and and Fox and others have been spreading this misinformation that the president doesn’t have it together anymore. And if you go out on the road with him, If you see him here at the White House, he’s doing multiple events a week. He’s taking tough questions from reporters a few times a week.

And he shows a lot of this energy every single day, and he it was certainly required to pass all the major pieces of legislation that he passed to work the phones to get the big things that he’s done as president. And so they created this ecosystem out there of people, who believed that the president wasn’t capable of giving the speech last night. That everyone here knew he was absolutely capable of, you know, that has the sort of energetic exchanges that we have with him in prep and and based on different things that are going on in the news every day. And so it was almost funny to see their attempt to reset that discussion last night and say, Oh, well, actually, we thought the president demonstrated too much energy last night. It was it was too much.

It was it was over the top. It was really outrageous. The American people won’t stand for it.

Yeah. So I wanna just, at the biggest possible picture, get from you guys, like, what you felt as I had some thoughts about, you know, what the what the goals of the state of union speech could be, you know, what what a state of the union speech has been in the past.

A lot

of time, a laundry less versus kind of what the president tried to execute last night. So what was the White House’s viewing? Like, what were the goals of

the night? Well, there’s always a struck to state of the unions, but I think this one was a little bit different. I mean, part of it is it’s the largest audience that the president will be in front of all years. So you do have to do some discussion about about the record and certainly the economic progress that we’ve made since the pandemic. That the average American may not have heard before, even though if you’re hyper political and watch the news every night, you had.

So some of that work had to be done laying out the vision for a second term. You heard the president talk about a number of domestic policy items, like lowering the cost of mortgages, lowering health care costs. But also things like restoring Roe versus Wade that had to be made clear as part of the speech, but I thought the thing that really stuck out for me that I’ll remember because I’ve been a through a few of these were just outlining the stakes of the moment for the country and opening the speech in a way that talked about democracy being at threat abroad and at home. And and revisiting the events of January six, revisiting the fact that there’s an active group of people out there that still believe that Joe Biden lost in twenty twenty, twenty one. And then cheered on people who tried to over turn the results of a free and fair election.

The president, you know, ran in the first place because of the stakes of the moment after Charlottesville because of the risk that was posed by Donald Trump. Those threats to democracy still very much exist today in a way that you know, just a person going about their daily lives may not focus on. And so I thought setting the table around that was really important last night.

Yeah. I mean, you didn’t have to start with Ukraine. Right? I did think, to me, I thought that was very notable that he comes out very hot starting out Ukraine, that I think the maybe and now this might be my eighties kid, you know, Republican showing. The moment that hit me the hardest team towards the very top when talking about Putin, we’re just gonna put in the clip.

My message is the president of Putin who I’ve known for a long time is simple. We will not walk away. Will you

not fall down. I

not bow down.

In a literal sense, history is watching.

We will not bow down. I will not bow down. I I thought that that was an interesting combination. Right? As maybe a subtext there attack on the former president, but also just demonstrating resolve and kicking off with that.

I mean, I have to imagine there’s some pushback on that internally. Do we really wanna start with Ukraine? You know, given all the potential issues. So so talk about that choice and leading off with the clear contrast with Putin and and maybe a subtweet of Donald Trump.

I think it comes to the fact that former president Trump has always embraced strong men and authoritarians And now he’s saying here in the US, he wants to be a dictator on day one. And the fact is people should take him at his word and take him seriously. I think You know, there’s still too many people out there that will say, oh, he’s just a performance artist. He’s joking around. He doesn’t mean what he says.

We think he’s dead serious about what he’s saying. And, you can look at what’s happening abroad in countries where rights and freedoms are being rolled back and very significant ways. And that’s what’s on the table here at home, and you’ve already seen what’s happened in terms of reproductive rights. In terms of IVF for families who need to access that option. And so I think part of it was about making very tangible and clear what that type of authoritarian attitude and belief in being a strong man is is all about.

And the fact that it sort of undermines the essence of what America’s all about and what America’s always been about, whether there were Democrats or, Republican presence in the past, they’ve all kinda shared that belief in small d democracy until Donald Trump.

Because that’s the direct tie. Right? So you go from hitting Putin into January sixth. The next best line for me that I wanna just put in here, let’s just listen to president Biden.

My predecessor and some of you here seek to bury the truth about January sixth. I will not do that. This is the moment to speak the truth and to bury the eyes. Here’s the simple truth. You can’t love your country only when you win.

You can’t only love the country when you win. Mike Johnson, squirming behind the president there, or nothing has had a Mike Johnson Cam going. But, again, I you didn’t have to do that. Right? Like, you could have started the speech talking about the IRA.

Right. Like, there are a lot of things that you could have started the speech talking about. And, you know, you go immediately into the Putin contrast and then start talking about January sixth. Talked about the rationale for that.

Well, look, I think that mega Republicans are still very focused on whitewashing the events of January six and saying that these were patriots at at the Capitol Great Patriots. Exactly. You’ve got just for president. Great patriots. You know, playing a song at his events that pays tribute to that moment.

And, you know, the president talked about the fact that we need to bury lots and, you know, enough people are seeing this at events or hearing it on channels that they trust from elected officials that they trust, from candidates that they trust. And those lies are taking hold. And so I think the president last night really wanted to call that out, really wanted to bury the lies in real time in front of the American people And, reach out to all those Americans who, by the way, in twenty twenty two said they weren’t gonna vote for election deniers, reach out to those folks who supported Nikki Haley and said they thought that the election was appropriately settled in twenty twenty, and that president Biden was the legitimately elected president and have concerns about this denialism that’s been going on out there.

You’re not a fan of the January six choir there. I take as a subtext. That’s not in your Spotify rotation.

I find the lyrics to be a bit concerning. I’m not sure about you.

Okay. The haley thing, I was gonna ask this, but it’s you mentioned that you brought it up. Just think about the priorities. Right? There is this balance in a speech like this last night.

Right? Versus, you know, you could have focused it on bragging about accomplishments, To me, the first twenty minutes really is talking to the I felt hurt, I guess, is what I’m saying. As as somebody that was aspiring to be a Haley voter in Louisiana that didn’t get the opportunity to. I felt like you were talking to them directly in the people that look at those polls and say, hey. Like, there is somebody out here that believes in NATO, believes in the free world, thinks the election was legitimately handled, isn’t cool with storming the capital.

I mean, There was a lot of pearl clutching by someone on the right about how political of the speech it was, but, you know, at some point, like, that was and the intent, right, to create a clear contrast about the, on a values level?

Absolutely. Look. I think that if you were traditionally a Republican voter or a satirite voter, there’s very important room for you within the president’s coalition. And you may disagree on the margins of what the appropriate tax rate should be for corporations. Maybe that’s, you know, how

you Student mom bail out. Do you want me to start listing the other places we disagree on the margins or should we just I have a little less prepared if you want.

But I think this is like you and me. We’ve kinda come around on the big things agreed to disagree on the margins of some aspects of domestic policy because we know the stakes of the moment for the country, and that’s how he tried to open the speech last night. He also, by the way, there’s a lot of things that sixty six percent of the country agrees on in that speech. So the bipartisan border deal with if president Biden and Oklahoma Senator, Langford can agree on that, by the way. And, you know, seventy Democrats and Republicans and the Senate can agree on something.

That’s something that has broad support. You know, some of the lowering costs agenda around prescription drug costs and expanding that to all Americans, the cap on prescription drug cost, for example, that’s something that eighty five percent of American support. People tend to support that across parties. Maybe not in Congress, but across the country. So, you know, there there was a lot there that was set to address concerns about people who feel like maybe prices haven’t come down as much as they want yet.

You know, there’s a reason he started by raising the stakes of the moment for the country. If you’re somebody who believes in the US, believes in democracy. You know, he referenced Reagan in the speech last night. Right? Those were intentional choices.

The Langford thing I guess you were watching it. Were you in the room or were you watching it back at the White House? I didn’t ask you.

I was back at the White House.

Yep. So you see on TV. Right? The Langford saying that’s true. Was a nice little gift from James Langford in Oklahoma, but I thought it was interesting.

Like, the the ghost of James Langford was a I an important character for me during the speech last night because I was like, here’s this guy that is a down the line conservative. Not like what a me I’m not a moderate former Republican, like a conservative Republican trying to solve a problem and just gets the rug pulled out from under him. And is is alone. He’s sitting alone unless that is And as the Democratic president is laying out, okay, here’s a deal that is gonna help us support our allies abroad and secure the border, And all the Republicans are like, be like, woah. Oh, it’s not true.

That’s b s. And the guy that wrote it is a conservative Republican mouthing. That’s true. To me, that was a big validation last night.

Yeah. That it absolutely was. And look, it was a reminder that president Biden has been able to work with leader McConnell to pass a whole number of big ticket items through this Congress on things like infrastructure things like making sure we’re building semiconductors in the US instead of overseas in Asia. You know, there was a sense when the presidency started that the president wouldn’t be able to work with Republicans in Congress, but there was still a handful that he could get things done with. And still a handful that do wanna get things done and work with him.

But what’s disrupted it is the kind of magnetization of the party led by Donald Trump, and a whole host of political incentives that are, you know, selfish politically and not good for the country. And so you saw that play out last night. There are Republicans who want to govern and want to get things done for the president, but it’s been disrupted by this takeover of the party from people who, you know, only care about advancing their own personal political interests.

Can really see the changes of our roles by the way that you respect fully call him leader McConnell. Those are not the words that I was using talking about Mitch. On yesterday’s podcast, I do have to push on one thing about the speech, and then I would go to call big picture. Thanks for we lose So the Lincoln Riley, maybe the one kind of gaffe from the president last night, miss kind of fumbles her day because of Lincoln Riley who had had been killed by and undocumented immigrant in Georgia. I I assume you didn’t plan that.

I guess you would know since you were part of the speech writing prep, that Marjorie Taylor Green was gonna be in a red hat, handing him buttons and wearing weird a t shirts, which is a was an interesting choice. And screaming at him to say her name. And then then he does it. Like, right? He picks up the button live and addresses her parents who are in the crowd.

Talks about Bo. Were you white knuckling through that or or talk to me about the about that exchange, about Lake and Reilly?

I don’t think so. Look. I think that the president handles off the cuff moments in his events on the road all the time. It’s hard to proactively plan something around Marjorie Taylor Green because, you know, usually with their just some sort of you can expect chaos and disruption, but you’re not sure what it’s gonna be about. I think That was an organic moment.

The president spoke directly to Lake and Riley’s family as somebody who’s lost a child. Before, and and thinks about that every single day. And often, we’ll we’ll talk about that experience And that I think he went to the broader solution that he’s put forward on the table, which is we do need a plan to secure the border. There’s a bipartisan plan that’s on the table. And we need a lot more people screening at the border and expediting the process around that and not have people be able to come into the country who have, you know, six years before they sit down with an immigration judge and asylum officer to determine whether or not they have a right to be here.

I mean, we can talk more broadly about crime as well. This is a president who didn’t give in to some voices on the party a few years ago. When they wanted to defund the police, he’s passed the American Rescue plan, which has provided resources to cities to bring down the violent crime rate at a historic percent over the course of the past year. And a lot of that was because they’re able to hire more police officers from those funds and more mental health counselors and community interventionists that have really helped, you know, bring that down. He’s been focused on it.

So He’s got a solution here, but I think he wanted to speak directly to the parents in that moment as well.

As the White House Communications director, someone used to be a communications director, a big part of your job is is fielding complaints from people. So I’m gonna make you feel a couple plates from Never Trump world. And the first one is you you just did it. You you bring up the police issue. And I think sometimes there’s a frustration that the White House does not make a more deliberate case and about the ways in which that that this administration has distanced themselves from certain things on the progressive left.

There’s been record oil drilling, more police funding, he’s not folded to the campus left on Gaza. Is there a way to be making that case more forcefully? Do you feel like there’s a hesitation to make decades more forcefully? Do you not wanna piss off the left? Like, how do you kind of assess that?

Well, I think we make elements of it, Tim. And I think part of the reason Joe Biden is president is because he was able to build a broad coalition that included traditional Democrats that united the Democratic Party, but still left plenty of room for independence and former Republicans or even correct Republicans who aren’t comfortable with Donald Trump. And so there are some things you mentioned energy You know, I was looking at a chart today that said, under this administration, there’s both been a record reduction in emissions, but also record energy independence for the US and the lowest amount of energy imports that we’ve ever had in the history of this country. So things like that, I think we probably could be talking more about. But I also think, you know, the president is generally for on big policy items These matters of big national consensus that maybe just certain factions of the Republican Party don’t support.

And those are issues in which, you know, he helps to bring in Republicans. So that is things like the bipartisan border deal that we just talked about funding more police officers on the street, even on things like gun violence, universal background checks is at like eighty five percent support even though they may not have enough Republican votes in Congress today, but the country supports it. So we’ll identify the issues to bring folks in. I think some of it will be just these issues of broad natural consensus of which, by the way, preserving our democracy is a part. And and issues like preserving IVF is a part.

So I just have to ask you, though. I was on the I was on TV at this Joker instrument. I know, you have a real job. So you probably are aren’t watching daytime cable news in the White House, but, is a Haley donor, and he’s, like, says to me, I just but I can’t be for Bite. I mean, the campus left the free Palestine from the river to the sea people.

They’re Biden coalition people. I can’t be for them. That’s frustrating to me because I obviously see the difference. I how do you navigate, like, communicating what the White House is doing to people like that with also, like, understanding legitimate concerns people have about gossip.

Yeah. I I’d ask them to look at how thoughtful the present has been in the moment and on foreign policy issues generally. I mean, I think we benefit from the fact that he was the chairman of the Senate Ford Relations Committee for decades that he literally knows every foreign leader who’s served a long time around the world that he can bring the experience in Israel of having known every prime minister since gold in my ear, And so when events like October seventh happen, he’s not caught off guard. He knows exactly what to do. And he puts our national security interests first and and not politics first.

And if you dig down into what he’s done, he’s defend it, Israel’s right to defend itself against the terrorist threat posed by Hamas and made clear that Hamas cannot remain empower But at the same time, there are two million innocent civilians in Gaza that need to be protected it’s to no one’s benefit if they’re threatened. And there is a serious humanitarian crisis there. And so he’s worked to protect those civilians, get humanitarian aid in, But still, make sure that Israel is secure and has the right to defend itself. And so that’s not a solution that’s filled with easy political talking points. That’s not really the point or what drives his leadership.

Well, it kinda is. It kinda is in United, everybody except two people with that strategy. So that’s that’s pretty good. Okay. Sarah Long was gonna be ready.

I have two final things for you. Sarah Longwell gonna be mad at me if I don’t ask you about surrogates. There’s a concern out there. That, look, president Biden, I think that for all of his strengths, we saw his vaguer last night, you know, like we could just be honest. This isn’t Speechifying is is maybe not his number one skill if you’re listening his skill sets.

And having more people out there making the case making, you know, the case on these issues we were just talking about. It feels sometimes. I think maybe that’s never trumpers. We just we’re so fucking we’re so fucking passionate way. It’s like the zeal of the convert.

We hate trump so much. Like, we just want people out there just channeling our rage, and channeling, you know, our passion for this. And sometimes it feels like that urgency is not there. What what are you gonna say to that about getting more people out making the case as we get into twenty twenty four.

Look, I think the door is wide open. Obviously, I defer to the team over on the campaign on on all the details of their political strategy here. I can speak

to one of these secretaries out and, you know, I mean, we could get we could get Mayor. Mayor Pete could be doing some things besides filling potholes. You know, we could get them on the tube.

Yeah. Absolutely. Look, we’ve got an aggressive travel schedule for the present, vice present, first lady, second gentleman,

and cabinet, they’re gonna

fan out across the country over the next month and do versions in states of of the state of the union address. I think part of the challenge we face is it’s just harder to reach people today. So one of the things we’ve done here is we’ve hired a director of consumer media that recognizes the fact that in twenty twenty. The number one show for persuadable voters wasn’t the news. It was the bachelor.

Right? We’ve gotta be on Day’s side TV that sought overly political We’ve got a podcast strategy. Yeah. We got a bunch of digital influencers here at

the White House last night. Bro podcast. You gotta get on the Secret Podcast. You know, we gotta reach them. They don’t want they’re not ready to

be dabbed. We do the Secret Podcast, but we also talk to folks, you know, here on on the center right But it’s just because things are so fractured. We basically need to dial up volume as much as we have trust validators, because I think we have

a good group of folks, but the the door

is always open for for more.

Alright. Very last thing. Just kind of on a personal level because I don’t know folks know you that well. You know, you’re not like a, Biden lifer, like many people around him. You didn’t live in DC.

You weren’t, like, looking for the next gig. You weren’t unemployed. You were employed quite successfully in San Francisco, actually, when we had hang out in the Bay Area and had left DC. And so you decided to Get back to to return, to go back into the White House, to work for Joe Biden. And so I’m not saying this is like some great sacrifice, but it was a choice.

Right, to reengage in government to reengage in this, you know, Democratic fight. As I recall, you didn’t really know Jobad in that well. And so just talk to people about, like, that decision. Going back in, meeting with him, meeting with first lady, meeting with the team, and kind of deciding that this was something that was worth getting back engaged, Doug.

Absolutely. Look, for me, this have been about the stakes of the moment. As you know, Tim, I spent the first ten years of my career sort of as a political junkie, campaign junkie working on the hill in the White House on campaigns. And I thought I’d spend about ten years doing that and then transition to

a more balanced lifestyle where you’re

just sitting at your desk

eating, you know, pizza all day.

There’s just there’s Yeah. More balanced lifestyle. Napa, you know, a regular job, weekends, things like that.

Exactly. You know, like, it there were you know, finding finding some moments of joy that weren’t just work driven. And I spent the next ten years doing that, and frankly, I could have spent the rest of my life doing it. But, you know, I didn’t know and many people didn’t predict that Donald Trump would become president. I didn’t know and couldn’t predict that he’d be running again.

I did get to know, you know, then vice president Biden just

a bit having worked on both Obama Biden campaigns and had a sense of what to do at a campaign communications operation, what to do at a White House communications operation, And so I figured I’d volunteer and I helped on the transition. And then I came back and I helped confirm Justice and Taji Brand Jackson And I saw the president build up this incredible record. And I felt like the press never really understood him or gave him the appropriate credit for that. And I also know with the fracturing of the media and sort of all these partisan outlets out there, how difficult it is to break through on your message at all. Anymore.

And so there was this big challenge facing the operation, which was the president has an incredible record, envision, I know what he’s like as a leader in the room, but there was a misperception out there nationwide of what that was. And these heightened stakes at the moment where, you know, I do want the US to still feel like the country that I grew up in. And I think this is a year where everybody’s gonna have to ask themselves, do I have some extra time to give? Do I have skill set that I can access here or a network that I can lean on a little bit more than I would in

a normal year because this is

a moment that’s going to take all of us with whatever skill set we have and whatever network we have. And we can’t just consume the news, but we have to participate in this moment. To intervene. And so I felt strongly about that. I’m a big believer in the president.

I didn’t think he was getting sufficient credit. I knew he was capable of the type of speech she gave last night, and I’m really energized for

Does he yell at you? I hear I hear in West Wing playbook. He’s a yeller. I said that he’s a yeller.

I would not describe him as that at all as, you know, I like a good I like a gay kind of sarcastic ribbing every once in a while. You know, I grew up in a household with a lot of that. And so every once in a while, I I get one of those, but it’s always, It’s always good natured and something you’re able to, to laugh off and smile about a little bit.

It’s deserved. You deserve a fucking ribbing bendable. Awesome. I’m happy you, you decided to go back into the White House. Let’s stay in touch over the next few months.

Thanks for, doing the Bulwark podcast, brother.

Great talking to you too. This was fun.

Alright. We are back with my colleague, Will Saletan, and, I wanna just be totally transparent with everybody. We’re trying out this where I would like to have more newsmakers on here, especially on big days, like, the day after the state of the union. But, yeah, my friend, Ben Lebould, your communications director, it doesn’t always make for the best pod. Right?

Like, you’re you gotta be on talking points. You know, there’s a lot of sub there, you gotta read through. So, my idea on how to handle this is that we’ll interview some politicians, some spokespeople, and then bring on Will Salatin or some of our other colleagues. And you know, help you translate a little bit. Help you translate what they were trying to get at, what we learned from those conversations.

And so give us a comment there in the, in the sub stack or send me an email. Let us know what you think about that, William. Thank you for doing this. How are you feeling this morning?

Good. Good. Tim, you know, it’s really cool for you because you’ve been on both sides you’ve had to be the boring guy and that you have to interview the boring guy and you make it less boring. It’s just

It is.

Great challenge. It

is. I’ve been enjoying it. I, you know, and I don’t know if you could tell during the interview. But I enjoyed ribbing then by saying things and asking things that I knew that he could that he would have to be the straight man, you know, and, and So I get to be I I sort of like it. It’s more fun for me, frankly.

So well, before we get to the bowl, just at the top level, I’m curious what your thoughts were about last night, about Biden first, and then we can get into my good friend Katie Brit and and what the weird little thing that she had going. So what’d you think about the president?

Well, he he solved his main problem, which was the the Republicans had painted this box he was in, which was he’s old, he’s feeble, he’s sleepy, Joe, And he definitely wasn’t sleepy, and, of course, all the reaction from Republicans afterwards. He’s so mean and partisan. That’s fine because what he needed to do was break that cliche about himself. And he totally did that.

Wait. Just really quick. What did you think about the mean and partisan thing? Because sometimes I feel like maybe I I can’t be a clean judge this anymore because I hate them so much. I hate the trumpers so much.

And, like, Mike Johnson, I just has a punchable face for me. And, I just so, you know, old Tim five years ago. I feel like you have much better equilibrium on this. Like, old Tim five years ago, I think would have been more sensitive to having a speech be a little you know, feel more politicized than it should be in that chamber, but new tomb was kind of like, hell yeah. So anyway, what, like, can you give me maybe more of a dispassionate look at that?

I can’t get past. These guys are complaining. They’ve got people heckling. They got a lady in a MAGa hat, you know, handing a button to the president.

She said, again, a t shirt, they never surrender t shirt with the bust. Yeah.

Totally. And what and didn’t like trump in his last say of the union, like, give rush limbaugh say he was gonna give rush limbaugh the medal for you. I mean, come on. Come on. Like, You know, the same way that Biden can’t compete with Republicans on being right wing about this or that issue, he can’t compete with Republicans about being mean in partisan.

I’m sorry. He’s just never gonna be there.

I think that’s right. So on the substance?

On the substance, a couple of things. First of all, I thought that Biden did a really good job of trying to reach out to the Haley vote. Trying to reach out to disaffected, you know, Reagan conservatives. He’s he starts off with Ukraine, an issue where he’s with them. Right?

He does the border stuff. He says, look, I’ve which is another thing Nikki Haley talked about. Right? I’m we should pass the border bill. We actually should solve the problem and not just have an issue.

So I think that he did a great job of that. And also said something really interesting. There’s this theme about it sounds boring to you and me. It’s a wonky thing. We’re gonna actually solve problems.

But if you can frame an election around that, I’m the guy who’s actually trying to solve the problem, like the border. And they’re the people who just want the issue. Right? They don’t solve things. They just could do press conferences.

They’re just, you know, peanut gallery. That can be effective. So I thought he did both of those things well.

Yeah. I changed your mind. We’re gonna save Katie Bedford, because I just wanna I just wanna just sort of just swim in it and just kind of spend a lot of time just sort of just really taking it all in and and thinking about the performance and and appreciate it. Kinda like when you sit at the end of a movie, sometimes when the movie’s so good, you have to kind of sit through the credits and just let it wash over you. I wanna do that with Katie Britt at the end.

So Let’s go back to the vault. I think the the interesting thing for me, and I understood what your takeaway was was all of these were very intentional choices. Right? Like, the idea for Biden to be yelling was not an accident. Right?

Like, the idea to start by trolling the Republicans over Putin in January sixth was not an accident. Right? And so, you know, he can’t come on today. The White House folks gonna be like, boom, bitch. Like, we trolled you, but I the subtext was very much like, yeah.

Yeah. We were it was a political speech. It was, like, we felt like we had to do it. Isn’t that how you read

What struck me was, like, we’ve seen a lot of boring Joe Biden when Biden has to just give a speech, it there’s not a lot of light

in it. Whispering, I hate the whisper because He does.

But, you know, he does seem to do better when he has a foil. Right? He’s got Trump as a foil. He’s got the House Republicans. He’s got Mike Johnson.

And so that old fight picking thing. I think they were also getting the best out of Joe Biden when they did that.

I agree. And, you know, I there is some tension. I was listening this morning to Stephen Hayes was bringing up that there’s a little bit of tension between, like, this idea that Oh, the Republicans are the grave threat, democratic threat that that they’re my foil, but also America is good doing great. Like, stadiums getting better. Right?

There’s this tension between Joe Biden is is fighting for the soul of the nation and brings people together. And Joe Biden is also you know, Tomahawk dunking on, Marjorie Taylor Green in the crowd. Right? Like, there’s there is tension between those things, and you do kind of have to choose. And in twenty twenty, the heat slip at times.

So in twenty twenty, ninety five percent of the Biden output was very unity norms, soul of the nation. Right? And to me, I think we learned last night that twenty twenty four is gonna be a lot more. No. Ask these guys, they’re dangerous.

We need to beat them. We have to fight. And I think that that’s probably the right choice. I don’t know. How do you assess that?

I don’t even think it was a choice. It you know, you can’t be a perfect unity candidate. You can’t say I’m with, you know, Donald Trump and the MAG of people when they’re attacking basic American values. If you’re gonna stand for the unity of America, and we know what Biden called the North Star, just basic things, common sense, decency, equality, democracy, the rule of law. When you have another party that is attacking those things, you have to fight them because you’re defending America.

I don’t think Biden was gonna be able to get through an election against Donald Trump by pretending to agree on on all that stuff. He’s gonna have to fight if he’s gonna fight for us.

What else did you take away from Ben?

You know, even though he was trying to just stick to the talking points, he did let on. He did say, for example, that at the top of the speech, Biden goes to Ukraine. Talks about Ukraine at the beginning, which I was very surprised by, and then Biden goes to January sixth. And Ben basically said that was a choice. We wanted those two things to be paired together.

And at the time, you know, Mike Johnson got a lot of crap for not standing and not applauding on the Ukraine stuff. Russia’s invading Europe, why are you, you know, conservative is not standing? But maybe Mike Johnson understood that that was the segue and that because Mike Johnson has to stand with the autocrat at home, Donald Trump, he can’t, you know, applaud the part about the autocrat abroad because that’s Biden’s, you know, pinning them together. So, that Ben was really clear that The threat to democracy at home, the threats to democracy abroad, we’re gonna bring those two things together. And that kinda puts the Republicans in a box as being friends with both Trump and Putin.

Yeah. The Mike Johnson thing, I do think it was disorienting though. It was disorienting. He seemed confused. I I think he seemed disoriented.

Eventually, he sort of found his footing as I’m just gonna roll my eyes and and wince and shake my head. But I think he got a little cut off guard. The beginning. Because there were a few times where he’s kind of like half clapping, and he’s looking around. And it’s like, what should I do right now?

Because it’s unnatural as somebody who is not too much younger than Mike Johnson. We all grew at the same time where we are Republicans. It’s unnatural to not clap when the president’s like, we are gonna stop Vladimir Putin from invading our, you know, a Democratic ally. Right? Like, that we are good that America is gonna be strong that we’re gonna stand with our friends.

Right? Some of the, like, that we will not bow down to Putin. You wanna kind of be like, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

That’s right. But you don’t you know what I mean? Like, is this a bipartisan stand up I think he was disoriented and it was disoriented for me as a watcher to be like, this is really where we are now. Right? The the Democrats have somebody in the crowd with the Ukraine flag a congressman, you know, in in a suit also draped in a Ukraine flag, and the Republicans are sitting.

This is a really great point. You’re making me think about Mike Johnson as a metaphor for what’s happened at the Republican Party, situations where a Republican speaker would have stood in any previous, right, era of the Republican Party won’t won’t do it now. You’re totally right about Johnson, by the way. He

seemed to

have adopted an idea that he’s not gonna stand in general. He’s not gonna react in general, so he doesn’t have to pick and choose. But then he did but then he did. So on the Ukraine stuff, Biden brings up Ukraine. Johnson won’t stand.

Biden then goes to Biden says, just bring up the Ukraine bill. It’ll pass. Right? Or bring up the border bill. It’ll pass.

At that point, Johnson has to react. He’s shaking his head like he, you know, it wouldn’t pass. Of course, it would. And the guy sitting there not standing up Mike Johnson is the reason why these things aren’t passed. If you put them on the floor, back to your point about consensus, you get three quarters of Congress on these bills.

Right? But one guy who’s in the thrall to, you know, Margier Taylor Green and Matt Gates and would lose his job if he did it is holding it back. So He can’t stand for that. Can we talk a little bit about Gaza for a second? Mike Johnson, there was three points when Biden was talking about Israel and Gaza when everybody stood up.

Right? One is Biden says, we’re gonna get the hostages back. Right? Everybody stands. Kamala Harris stands.

Except for Ashida to leave in Corey Bush. Yes. We just do it. We do it to say. Rashida to leave in Corey Bush both sat during that.

And I will say that Corey Bush, there’s an ongoing primary. We might be trying to get her opponent on this podcast. And so I was watching that last night, making a mental note. And I was like, we need to try to track down Wesley Hunt because this is fucking gross. But anyway, everybody but two people stood up for getting hostage back.

Oh, this is great, though. This is now we have now we have an actual left, right, dispute at the board because I I wasn’t looking I’m with Ben Labolt. I don’t wanna talk about those Don’t bring them up. Okay. But let me set them aside for a minute.

Mike Johnson, so bring the hostages back. Everybody stands up. Mike Johnson stands up and applauds. Right? Then Piden says Israel has a responsibility to protect Palestinian civilians.

Right? Kamala Harris stands up. Democrats stand up. Mike Johnson sits. Now, at this point, you could say, maybe Mike Johnson doesn’t wanna stand up because he doesn’t wanna say that’s Israel’s responsibility.

It’s Hamas’s fault. Okay. I can give him that. Then Biden says, And we’re gonna set up this maritime, you know, we’re gonna set up sh ships bringing aid into Gaza. Kamel Harris stands up the Democrats stand Mike Johnson won’t stand for aid to the Palestinians.

Like, that’s not about blaming Israel. That’s about Just basic humanity. These are people starving and dying. Right? I thought that was that was really disturbing.

And to me, that was a sign of how Kallus a lot of people have become about the death in Gaza.

Yeah. That’s that’s one area where we definitely agree. So I thought it was interesting from hearing from the Bolt that, you know, again, there’s this tension, right, where he works for government. Right? So it’s like, you’re gonna have to talk to the campaign about some of these things.

But it’s but he’s volunteering. He’s bringing up Haley voters. But, like, intentionally mentioning that we’re reaching out to Haley voters intentionally bringing up that he’s on this podcast because they are trying to reach out to center right voters intentionally bringing up increased funding for police. You know, all of that. And you saw that in the speech last night too, but I I really thought that kind of just talking about it with Ben, you could you could just really appreciate the intentionality.

Of how they feel like that that, that those are folks that they need. Are they know it? And they were trying to talk to them last night in the speech? Like, you you know what I mean? Like, it’s Right.

Many state of the unions. Like, when you’re writing the speech and when you’re talking to your policy people, one thing that is not generally in mind is How do we talk to one faction of the other party? Right? Like, they, you know, and and they were, I think, very intentional about that. Right.

Well, I’ll give you some credit here, or maybe I’ll this is a little backstage thing.

Yeah. So

I’ve watched a couple of the interviews, Ben’s done over the last twenty four hours, not not just with us. So he did that for He did he did the whole, you know, he said to you. Right? You know, we’re going for the center right voter. That Reagan reference, that was delivered.

He didn’t say But, yeah. That wasn’t that wasn’t a civil audience play. Okay. Which is not to say it isn’t real because we know from Joe Biden’s career that it is real. Right?

He loves to work across the aisle. That was kinda deliberate. And I totally agree with the idea. First of all, Haley just dropped out. So this is a good moment to be reaching to those people.

But the other thing, Tim, is it captures what’s going on in our country. There is a giant hole in American politics right now where a sensible conservative party would be, you know, a party that would actually try to close the border instead of keeping it as perpetual campaign issue about caravans and stuff. Right? A party that would stand up for a freedom abroad against, you know, a Russian invasion of Europe. And so Biden is moving into that space.

He he’s more there than than a lot of today’s Republicans are than Mike Johnson, for example, is. And I think he’s very wise to move in there, and Ben’s just affirming that’s what he’s doing.

Yeah. It’s a little cautious though. I will say this about it. You know what I mean? And I said, like, we want it to be more fervent.

So I said, look, I don’t need Joe Biden. Whatever. Like, I’m not, you know, I’m not in the bill crystal space where we want to buy them Liz Cheney crossover ticket. I don’t need that. I don’t.

I really don’t. Like, they he can talk about climate, I he’s been a very progressive president, frankly, in certain elements of the initiatives that they’ve put forth. But, like, as a positioning standpoint, in the areas where he’s not I’d like to see them wave the bloody shirt a little more. You know what I mean? I’d like to see them be like, you know, these two people that aren’t worth standing up for the hostages released.

I was. K. You noticed these Republicans on Fox, they say that I’m enthralled to the to Rashida to leave and these people that are on pro Hamas, but they’re sitting Well, I’m talking because we disagree on this. I want Israel’s really sausage. I would like I would like, you know, to not have to pull teeth about mentioning that we’re more energy independent than ever.

Right? Like, you know what I mean? Like, some of that stuff, I just I would like a little more effort. Is that too much to ask? Do you think?

You want him to triangulate. You want Bill Clinton?

Yeah. Yeah. I want a little more Bill Clinton. Can I give a little Will Saletan just in six months?

Just are are you gonna win Michigan for him if he loses the Arab American vote? I mean, what who are you gonna deliver? You know?

Are we worried about that. Are you really were how worried are we about that real?

I don’t know. I mean, it’s just a shocking to me that, like, anyone who cares about Palestine cents would would rather, like, help Donald Trump get elected, a guy who’s, like, literally advocated a ban on Muslims in this country and would absolutely throw Gaza to the wolves. But let me come back to what you want out of this. Would you be happy, Tim, if Biden went harder at the police stuff? So Yes.

Let’s bring people back to yesterday. You were talking with Tom Nichols about this, right, that you you caught the thing in Mike Johnson’s last press conference where he says we’re gonna on the FBI and, you know, the justice department, ATF, right? AtF. Right? Of course, that’s gun enforcement.

We don’t want But the Republicans, like, they’re talking about defunding federal law enforcement. So Biden does he did say in the speech. Right? He did say we have more money for cops, and I forget exactly what his line was.

He did.

But he he didn’t go hard at it. Would you be happier if he went hard at that?

I wanted to go hard at it. Yeah. Here’s the thing about buying it. This is this was a frustrating thing. I remember talking to Ron Kleen about this at some point in twenty twenty.

Where I was like, Biden, I think, if my memory is correct, there was a police officer that died on the duty, maybe in Delaware and Philly. And Biden went and spoke to at the funeral. And he was so in his element. And it was like, I was trying to think about this, and it was like, this is what this guy’s done his whole life. Right.

Like, he’s been a pro union pro cop, right, politician. Has spoken a lot of police funerals. And, yeah, can I see ads with Biden hanging out with cops? By I want okay. What was my joke with I was somebody recently this week.

I was like, him on an oil rig with a hat with a hard hat and some, like, spoils splat on his face. Is that too much to ask? Maybe. I guess maybe it’s too much to ask. You can tell that they wanna do it.

But they they just feels a little timid. It felt a little timid from Biden, a little timid from Ben, where they’re saying it, they they wanna check the box to do it. You know what I mean? They they wanna do it, but they don’t they’re a little worried that if they do it too hard, that they’re gonna get backlash. Maybe that’s a legit worry, by the way.

Maybe that’s a legit worry. I don’t know.

Well, maybe if Biden said, you know, use illegal as a noun a couple more times. How do the job? I was you

you had the

cringe too. Right? Yeah. I I

mean, Maybe it’s good. So I know, you know, I don’t say that. I don’t use the legal as a noun. Like, okay. I cringed a little bit, but it also made me laugh.

Again, it’s like that there’s this whole fantasy mind, what you’re talking about with Tom Nichols, right, where it’s like the unfoxed news, it’s the fantasy that, you know, he’s in with the woke left Right? And that he’s the such and it’s like Joe Biden, and I was I was like, if you handed Joe Biden a speech that have Latinx in it, he would assume that it was a typo. Right. He would be like, what are you talking about? You know what I mean?

He does not know the right words. Like, he is not part of the identity language fully. And so is that a worry maybe? If you’re a conservative and you’re worried about the the left’s going this direction, is that a worry for twenty thirty two? Sure.

Yeah. I’m fair. That’s fair. But, like, But, you know, where you’re not gonna vote for Joe Biden because of it? You know, I think that the illegal thing I don’t exactly know how to do it, but I I wish there was like a stealth campaign to, like, But, like, to, like, show him saying words like that to on Secret Podcast.

Yeah. And just to back up for a minute on this for everybody to understand, Joe Biden does not have a bigoted bone in body. And, this is just this is just an old guy talking, but does let me come back to, you know, the triangulation or reaching across and establishing yourself as agreeing with conservatives about something. I don’t know if crime is the issue where you need to do that. I think the border is the more salient issue because it is a serious, serious problem.

He is making a play there. And if I were bendable and if I were Joe Biden, that’s what I would be pushing. I would be grabbing this opportunity because the Republican Party is sending a very clear message that it isn’t this is a Hey akeem Jeffrey’s word. They’re not serious. They’re not serious about any of these policy things.

They talk about, like, it’s a national security threat at the border, but the board the bill comes to them. And they’re like, no. No. No. Let’s wait a year.

Let’s wait and see if we can get our guy elected by making the problem worse. And so Biden’s very wise to step into that. They’ve been saying Tim for a couple of weeks that they were gonna hit hard on this. I’m not seeing enough of it. I wanna see from this White House is going hard at that border bill.

If it was some in the speech, but much more of we agreed to all the stuff that’s in the bill. That clip of James Langford saying, you know, that’s true. That’s right. Right. You know, it’s really important.

Go do something with James Langford who was endorsed Donald Trump, but Langford is, like, as you said, he’s not a center right guy. He’s a right right guy. Right? And all he did was sit there and actually work with Democrats to solve what all conservatives agreed was a problem, and he gets chucked overboard. And he’s still there and he’s still principled.

Find a way to work with him. Find a way to do something with him.

Yeah. I thought the two most meaningful moments of the speech were not from the stage. That I did think Python was good was Langford saying that’s true. And then this from c span after after the speech. Which is Joe Biden’s exchange.

It’s Jerry Now, but let’s listen to this.

You are on fire. Natalie says nobody’s gonna talk about cognitive impairment now. And,

Biden, I kinda wish sometimes I was cognitively impaired. That’s funny. That’s funny. And so my question talks on that, but also This is over. Right?

I’m sorry to Bulwark crystal, but the they’ll it’s over. Right? Like, the whole, like, as for Klein, you know, Joe Biden isn’t up for this. He put that to bed last night. Right?

It’s over? Yes. And as, you know, speaking of bed, like, Joe Biden

may be the old guy, but it’s like the anti Biden people who’ve been wetting themselves mean, they’re but they’ve been they’ve been panicking for months about, like, you know, he can’t handle it and we need to put someone else in. The argument for Biden on the negative side has been, who do you got in mind? Who’s gonna, like, unify the Democratic party all of a sudden and who’s not gonna have some other problem? But there’s an affirmative point too, which is that he can handle it. And that lot of people were in doubt about that.

I think he’s put that to rest for now. There’s gonna be more gas. Sure. There’s absolutely gonna be more gas But can he do it? He showed in this speech that he can.

Yeah. And there could be. Well, it’s it’s a happy Friday. The nuggets won. We got jobs.

So I’m not gonna bring up the other potential problems. I’m with you. Okay. We gotta do Katie Britt before we go. That was the weirdest shit I’ve ever seen in my life.

I like, I swear. I don’t I I’m not gilding Lily. I I my whole body, I was getting tingles on my body when she started speaking. My husband It’s in the chair next to me, and he started curling up into a ball out of, like, you know, vicarious embarrassment. It was so weird.

You know, I literally thought somebody like, there was gonna be somebody with a knife that comes through. Like, I thought that there there maybe there’s somebody off stage with a butcher knife. The whole thing was bizarre. What was am I overstating it? Where were you on Katie Brit’s performance?

No, Tim. You you were not

overstating it. So, I like okay. So, like, all right thinking people, I did not actually watch the state of the union live. I was playing basketball during this. So I’m coming back from my basketball game, and I’m playing the Katie Brit speech in the car.

So I can’t actually see her. And I’m in disbelief at what I’m listening to. Like, is she actually upset? I can’t see her face. I got home, and I watched it again.

And I was like, oh my god. This is actually for real.

In the car, I had to feel like a Prairie Home companion type thing, like, a really down market Prairie Home companion. It’s like, is this a high school play that they’re doing on.

That’s what it that was it. Like, what was it? Sorry. I Julia Yaffe had the best line about Katie Brit. She said, The acting chops were somewhere between porn and high school play.

You know, I mean, I was thinking about what’s something boring that you would read like phone book. Nobody has nobody has phone books anymore. If you went on a road trip with Katie Britt, you know, and, like, she just have wouldn’t be fun to have her read the road signs? Like,

merge right. Merge right. No left turn. No left turn. No left turn.

Who’s Unvarnished. I

like, why did every syllable have info? And then why is she in a kitchen? Why is she alone in a suburban kit? It looks like an unused suburban kitchen. It’s very clean.

I don’t know what your kitchen looks like. My kitchen doesn’t look like that. I’m a children. My or I’m a child. My kitchen looks crazy.

And so she’s in a in a very clean kitchen with, like, a fruit bowl and the lighting is low. And it’s like, why are you why? Why are you in a you’re a senator? And then and there were the talking points that they put out beforehand, but they’re like, people people should call her America’s mom. It’s like, why should people call it America’s mom?

I, like, they’re just meeting her. Why not just be a senator? Sit in a Senate office and give a Senate speech. That’s fine. Just give a b minus senate speech.

That that would be totally fine. Why are you trying to do this?

In their defense, though. I if Katie Brit if she is America’s mom, then that would kind of explain why America is traumatized. I mean, if you if your mom spoke like this to you all the time.

If some somebody said to me, it was, like, I felt like my mom was telling me her and dad are getting divorced.

That was right. Right. So look, we’ve seen so many bad responses the state of the union.

I rewatched Bobby Jendall this morning just as a just as a level set. I went back and I will first thing I did when I woke up, I was like, am I overdoing this? Like, I wanna rewatch Bobby Jendall’s speech seemed downright normal. Like, just downright just even middle of the road. A little weird.

A little muppet y. Like, not great. Not a great oratory, but compared to Katie Brit. Right. I think it was worse than Marco and Jindall by like.

One standard deviation, the worst.

That’s right. Yes. Katie Brit redefined bad state of the union response. So There’s been lots of bad ones. They’ve been boring.

They’ve been, you know, it wouldn’t. But Katie Brit, I think what happened here is classic overreaction people this is, like, for old people who, like, remember Al Gore, like, he debated one way, and people didn’t like it. So he went completely the other way. This was an overreaction to previous bad state of the union. So she decides to ham it up.

Right? And now next year, everyone will be like, whatever you do, don’t do a Katie Brit.

Don’t do that. Just be normal. I think that it ends the VP stakes for her, though. Do you not think so? I mean, trump is

I don’t think he

ever started. Lizard brain. You don’t think he’d ever start it. Trump has a lizard brain this. And I just think that he looks at that and it’s like, like, that wouldn’t have even made the cut for the apprentice.

Yeah. You

know, if somebody tried to do a performance like that on the apprentice, it would have hit the cutting floor, he wouldn’t have put it on TV. So I just think that that if he knows anything, it’s TV, and that was bad.

And just to be fair to Katie Brit, she’s young. Everybody can give a bad speech, You know, famously Bill Clinton gave a terrible speech and had to recover from it, you know, with what was it introducing to caucus? I can’t remember.

His state of the union response wasn’t that good either. People really wanna go deep in the archives. He gave a really kind of weird one where it was sort of like, was that, like, on the Simpsons where the way you’re doing the, infomercial? He’s, like, in a room with people and he was, like, walking. His one was also pretty weird.

I recommend people go back and find that. But I don’t think it was as weird as Katie Brits. I don’t think it’s possible to be.

No. And you and you do wonder who is in the room with her when she’s rehearsing this. Is there no one who says, Can we dial this down a little bit? Maybe that’s a little bit too much. Apparently, no one no such person was there.

Yeah. I noticed that Mike Shields’s former colleague of mine was was retweeting, like, the five compliment that she got last night, so I assume he was the consultant on that one. But, boy. I don’t know, rough trade. Okay.

Will Saletan, anything I forgot? It’s Friday. It’s people’s weekends. Do you have any counties for people, for the for the holiday? Holiday’s not a holiday.

It’s I mean, in New Orleans every weekend’s a holiday. So it feels like a holiday.

Start drinking right now if you’re in New Orleans. No. No. My I don’t have to had to do a pony because the pony was this speech. This was a good speech.

You know, cheer up everybody. Stop wetting the bed.

It was a good speech. Things are happy. People are happy at the blog podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll be back next week.

Thank you, Will Salatin. We’ve got a great lineup of guests. See you all then. Have a great weekend.

You sure mind me. I’m miss Madamie. Hello, street woman. Your show

You know your lip

all payment. You know y’all have good at all this way. Strain woman. You know, I wanna know what might be your name.

Hello.

Hello. Yeah. No. I wanna You know, I love you, look up. That’s so hard for me to explain.

The Secret Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.