Based Liz Cheney Has Arrived

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the next level. I’m J VL here with my best friends. Sarah Longwell and Timothy Miller of the Bulwark. Before we get rolling, hit subscribe, give us five stars.

Do the thumbs up if you’re on the YouTube feed. The show is killing it. I’ll be honest. Like, we’re just awesome. And, things are going super well, but I want more.

Because more is more.

Hey. Have you gone and read the comments when people rate, they do the little comments?

On the Apple podcast?

Yeah. Not recently.

I know Tim has. And you know how I know Tim has? Because Tim likes to go look and see all the nice things people say about him. And I don’t remember when he must he must solicited people because it is JBL, you would hate it. It is just, like, a long list of people talking about how much they like, Tim, and occasionally saying that you and I are also okay with an occasional person insulting one of us.

Yeah. I what? That’s right. Well, see here’s the thing. Is that when you do a show, like, I do on Sundays, you know, I don’t know if Sarah I don’t know if you listen to that show as often as you read J.

Vail’s newsletter, but sometimes at the very top of it, I tape a little thing. And I say, hey, guys. Go into the comment section and on your Secret Podcast and review us on the Apple podcast app and tell us who you like the And if it’s me, I would love to see your name, my name there. And it seems that that works.

Look. It’s totally fair. People like Tim better than me, but anybody who doesn’t like Sarah as much as Tim as a monster, because Sarah liked Tim as a great human being. Alright. Let’s go.

Here’s another great human being. Liz forking Cheney. Liz Cheney has a book out, and we now have based Liz Cheney with laser eyes sitting on the skull of Thrones, and Diamond hands, all of the memes. And it’s amazing. It’s everything that we hoped it could have been.

Tim, would you like to go first?

Well, not quite everything that we hoped it could have been. I mean, she could speak of the house or something right now rather than, an exile. But, yeah, I mean, look, the we only have one excerpt from the book. I’m excited to devour more. And, I I think that there are gonna be a lot of a lot of solid anecdotes, from from Liz.

I I I was most intrigued by her comment about We Little Kevin McCarthy going down to Mar a lago. To, see Donald Trump and how mad Liz was at him. And Liz was like Sarah Longwell at us when we start making dick jokes on the podcast and, like, shaking her finger at him and Kevin was like, whoa, poor little Donny Trump was sad. He was sad. He needed somebody to cheer him up and they asked me to come out and cheer him up.

Like, these people are so stupid, and you can just you can just sense Liz’s contempt for them through the pages, which I appreciate. And we all kind of knew this, but since she’s on the inside, I she really exposes how weak the Republican Congress people are. Right? And and just how pliable they are. And the fact that, like, there are so many of them that, like, said, that they’re gonna do the right thing and then just folded like a cheap suit.

And so I I do enjoy I do enjoy that. But, you know, those those are just some of my favorite things from the list Janie Book excerpts.

Here’s one. He knows it’s over. McCarthy said. He needs to go through all the stages of grief.

What stage are we in right now? What’d you bargaining still.

When the California Republican went on Fox News the same day, he said president Trump won this election. Channie writes. It’s it’s amazing. McCarthy, being very, very concerned that he

we went down, he went down to the Mar a Lago to he was worried that the mister mister president, mister Trump, wasn’t eating. You might be depressed.

Because Donald Trump seems like a guy who who really misses meals when he is feeling feeling bad.

The the only person who was ever president and didn’t look different by the end, which is show which showed you how, you know, how little did he, you know, carried the weight of the office. Anyway, Sarah, what did you have do you have a fave?

I was gonna say the thing JBL just said about him not eating which I thought was funny. That was some nice color. You know, she retails the anecdote that I’ve always really liked about what’s his face from Ohio.

Jim Dormless.

Yeah. Going. Like, like, we need to get the women out of the aisle, like, being sort of like macho and she’s, like, starts swearing at him and being like, you did this. This is your effing fault. I love that.

Look, Mitt Romney’s got the book. Doing sort of a very similar thing here, which is just it’s just an exposure of the hypocrisy. And I think that what’s interesting from almost like a tribal standpoint is the way that these guys feel the need to kick these people out of the tribe as quickly as possible because they hold up the mirror and because they expose their truth. And so, like, that’s why they can’t be there. Like, they cannot be around somebody they know is right and correct.

And is saying it out loud.

You know who is not like that? My other favorite anecdote from this chapter, Nancy Pelosi. If you would have told me ten years ago that an an old age Nancy Pelosi would be, you know, I would just have, I gained, like, a Nancy Pelosi appreciation. I would have My husband’s really doing. I told you shows if you listen to this podcast, which he doesn’t.

So I can I can speak freely about how much I like Nancy Pelosi now? But Chaney writes that Pelosi’s team pulled together a list of the ten worst things I had ever said about her. K. Now, this was when Nancy Pelosi decided that Liz should take kind of more of a public role in January six hearings that it makes more sense politically to have a Republican out front. You know, the little prongs that work for Nancy Pelosi.

We’re all we’re all nervous that they they thought maybe it was a mistake to put somebody like Liz Cheney up front. Pelosi takes a look at the list, handed it back to the staffer and asked, why are you wasting my time with things that don’t matter? Would only have been better if it ended with you a little bit. I got it. Thank you, Nancy Pelosi.

You know, just under fire and at the capitol showing poise. A lot more poise than Chuck Schumer in that video, by the way, that, was released showing a lot of poise on under fire. And then when, you know, when the her team tries to get petty about bringing Liz Cheney on board, you know, plus he’s says no. I I really I I think that that is It feels obvious to us at the Bulwark that Liz Cheney should have been had a public face in the January sixth committee, but you could imagine a different type of democratic leadership, that would have been true. Or or Franco, you could imagine this from, you know, my Kevin.

Because think of the pressure, actually, in the moment because they are sure that Trump’s done, actually, right, after Jay. Right? And, actually, like, they think maybe we can get him. And if you remember back to the first impeachment, how much sort of like grandstanding it was and how it did kind of make stars out of some of the people who were running the impeachment, who were getting up and giving their speeches, And so to give it over to the Republicans, put them front and center, you can see how people who are close to her would get mad about that. They’re like, no.

We wanna be the ones to make this case. And she understood both the optics and the politics of it. And also, I think, like, how much more viscerally Liz and Adam felt about this and, like, how doggedly they were gonna pursue it in ways that when it’s just politics, you can let things fall away. Like, my guess is is that Liz Cheney was like, probably, like, a monster taskmaster during the January six hearings and good honor. Right?

Like, I’m sorry. This was a job for Republicans.

And just to, I really put a finer point on, on, I think, an important observation you made is the political context of the time. Right? Like the like, not everybody was like JBL who realized that Donald Trump was gonna rise from the grave. You know? Many people thought that he was done.

Another anecdote from the book drives us home. Right? Mitch McConnell did not act like Nancy Pelosi did.

I like where I am. Is what Mitch says to her. Yeah. I like where I am on impeachment.

Yeah. He had initially said that he was gonna impeach. And then he, you know, went with his middle ground thing where he says mean things about Don Trump on the floor and then votes to, you know, keep his political career alive. But one of the rationalizations for that was the what’s the downside for humoring him rationalization. Right?

Like Mitch McConnell, and all of his savvy thought he was done. Right? And so it wouldn’t be hard to imagine that Nancy Pelosi might have thought that too. Maybe she did at the time. Maybe she thought, but this is still we still need to make the strongest cases still the right thing to do.

And you can see how one of her staffers who who lived in West Wayne Fantasy politics. Might have thought, oh my goodness, we’re elevating somebody that could be a threat. Like, right now this seems ridiculous. Right? I think it was Janey that was defeated in a primary, but at the time, you’re elevating somebody from the other conference who, you know, you might think of of as more of a political threat than the maggot wing.

Right? And you’re giving of this huge platform, ends to just Not, you know, consider any of that. Right? And just make sure the strongest case was being put forth. It was not as obvious as it seems right now.

It was a meaningful choice by her, and it was and it just shows in stark contrast to Mitch McConnell making the exact opposite disastrous choice, which is a big which is really the only reason why we’re here right now is Mitch McConnell’s disastrous choice.

Look, we’ve said this a hundred times, but I feel like we should say it every single time we talk about her. The courage that Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger showed is so tremendous the country really does owe a debt to them. And, like, like, I know, you know, there are a hand full of progressives who get angry about that. Like, well, she voted for Trump and she realized too late. And, yeah, okay.

Fine. But but she realized, and when she realized, like, it isn’t that she just, like, you know, gave a background quote to politico.

Right.

Like, what she and and Kinzinger did was absolutely stunningly courageous. And honestly, one of the reasons that I am so down and depressed the prospect of Trump winning again because I think it’s, you know, at least as likely to happen as not, is that if Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger sacrifice on this, was for nothing, then, like, what is this country even doing? You know? Like, I and that That really bugs

me. We found a new name for the podcast. What is this country even doing? I agree. And it’s a contrast to other people did the right thing.

Like, you have to be Gonzalez. Right? Again, Again, this is not a this is not a criticism related to Anthony Gonzalez. He went back to Ohio. He decided that he had a young family, and it wasn’t worth the bullshit.

He went back to Ohio. Okay. It’s better than a lot other people acted.

Yeah.

But but but there were two people that said, no. Like, we need to treat the accusations we are making against Donald Trump with the seriousness that the accusations merit. Right? And that’s been the that’s been the refreshing thing the whole Right? And this gets into, you know, the kind of people we’ll talk about in segment too.

Right? This idea is that you can’t say, hey, this guy’s a fucking lunatic, and then be like, well, maybe though. Her actions matched the words that so many people have used against Donald Trump and then and then not done anything.

Yeah. I’ve never exchanged even as so much as an email with with Liz Junior Adam Kinzinger. It’s not like they’re they’re buddies of mine. I just think that what they did was phenomenally courageous and the best sort of thing that we expect from America and patriots, and, I’m grateful to them, and I think we all ought to be.

Adam and and I are buddies, but I’ve only met with Shane of the one time. I literally I’m I’m probably speaking out of school, but whatever. He told me he was off the record. I had a book author messaged me the other day and says, hey, I’m working on a book. And, I was referred from the exchange you had with Liz Cheney in Arizona.

I was like, oh, yeah, I did see what was Jamie one time in Arizona. He’s like, what happened? And, he was like, Apparently, you were saying that she needs to go out and do more, and she was saying you don’t need to worry about my resolve. I was like, I don’t remember that conversation, but though it sounds like a thing that I would say and it sounds like a thing that is Jamie would say. Oh, you can put it if you want.

But, I think that, I think the context was that I was speaking to what you were saying about about the actions, right, matching this is like my it was at the time when she was I think speaking out but we were coming up in the midterms. And I was like, you’d like, look, there’ll be secretary of state races out there. You should, you know, like, endorse the non, deniers. And, again, again, just as in the Pelosi situation you’re talking about. She did it.

And at the time, that didn’t seem as clear, though, or people telling her she maybe shouldn’t do that. She had her own prime. You know, and every time since the moment that she stood up, she’s answered the bell.

Dara, do you wanna

No. I agree with that. Here’s the thing. I guess I’m trying to decide whether I wanna introduce this whole deviation on this subject, but, like, It actually is to this question about how does Liz sort of best leverage her voice in this moment, and obviously writing this book is good. And I can often be critical of some of the, like, ex folks who write books, but I think one of the things that’s different about what Liz is doing, and Adam has a book too, and Mitt Romney Right?

As they are telling the inside story, and yet, I still don’t think those are the best ways to deploy. Like, it’s good. Right? Good for her to get these anecdotes out. It exposes them all to the good.

Just the question is is like, what does Liz Cheney do next? How does she try to defeat Donald Trump? One of the things that’s really complicated about this moment is Tim was talking about the progressives who still kind of hold it against her, like, Donwin’s or somebody who just like relentlessly is pumping out stuff being like, here’s what she said about abortion and here’s what she said about this. And what’s disappointing or I don’t kinda know what to do with is what is the role for Liz Cheney next? Like, if she were to go to Biden, and say I wanna endorse you.

I wanna get out on the trail with you. Does that help Biden? Maybe in some districts?

Yeah.

Maybe some places.

It hurts him in California and helps him in Pennsylvania, which is a good trade.

Are you worried it hurts him in, what, with the and or is she the Talives district in Michigan or something or in Ann Arbor?

No. With progressives, considering that, you know, they think that she’s a warmonger, I just I actually think that our narrow view on this is quite narrow. And I think could see how somebody like Liz. Right? I think this is where the third party fantasies sort of come together as this idea of, like, But Liz Cheney could be a third, you know, she could be.

What about Liz Cheney? I would vote for Liz Cheney. People in our world say things like that. And it’s easy to convince yourself that there is a sort of co I

know what to do.

What oh, yoshi becomes a Democrat?

Kamala Harris steps down from the ticket. Yep. Replaced by Liz Cheney explicitly as a Republican, and it becomes a national unity ticket to face the threat of Donald Trump. So this is look.

This is my point.

This is Erin. Is that

is that Tim, Just ruler.

Aaron Sorkin working with me here. What?

Bill just Bill just appeared onto the podcast.

That’s right.

Why is

it great? Look, John McCain wanted to do this. Right? John McCain in two thousand eight was dying to run with Joe Lieberman as his running mate, and he didn’t and, you know, we all know how that worked out. But I don’t know.

Joe Biden is losing this election right now, and I am sorry, but it’s simply facts. And, something has to change. And if we’re going to make this

You’re not you’re a joke. You were serious with that suggestion?

This is I’m telling you, he gets like this.

Okay. No. This is every once in a while. Okay. Joe Biden alright.

Every once in a while.

Joe Biden is eighty one.

Here for Fisa.

No. I can’t work with you cycles. Joe Biden is eighty one. He cannot name a Republican as his vice president. That would be an a it would be an absolute, just Nashville.

Appments like big response. Times of crisis. Right? Parliamentary governments have formed unity governments in times of crisis.

You’re one Joe Biden slip from Liz Cheney being a knee being from Dick Cheney’s daughter, becoming the president of United States. It’s j b l’s

that bad.

Please stop. Please stuff.

Is that jam?

I’m sorry. I’m

just like, we are gonna have to endure so much of this. Is my point? This was the point I was

gonna am I gonna have to quit the bulwark and go back into working for Super packs. There is one yes. Liz Cheney can help. She should endorse them. And they I’m I I bet she will in the end after the period.

All this kind of nonsense and And yes. She can go to she can go to Atlanta, and they can run ads in Atlanta, and they can run ads in the Philly suburbs. And, yeah, no. And there could be there are plenty of reasons why college kids might not turn out for Joe Biden. And we saw the very scary polls about what they think about inflation and we we watch TikTok.

I do at least. So we know that they have very pro Osama bin laden we use about Israel. So so, like, there are many reasons to be concerned about young people not turning out for Joe Biden. Liz Chaney endorsing Joe Biden with no promise of any role in the next administration and running ads in Atlanta is only a net plus, and it isn’t even worth hand wringing over. It’s an obvious net plus.

There we go.

So she should do that, and he should.

And why not as VP?

Maybe. Alright.

Hey, kids have been on for you

never know. What’s third in mind? Secretary of state. Straight forward from here. Keep Kamel on the ticket.

Get the young people. Get the young people out to vote.

I’m just saying there’s gonna be a ton of Liz Cheney for president, third party establishment media chatter for the next.

That’s absurd.

Mark my words.

Sure. I know. There’s a lot of dumb stuff in the establishment media. This is why people come here. If when he

says, no, that’s ridiculous. Doesn’t that actually even help tamp down some of the no labels mansion stuff too. Right? If she says running as a third party would be helping Donald Trump as people are asking her to run third party. Does isn’t that also helpful?

If she does that. If she does that, that would be awesome.

And she’s on a book tour next week. So I’m sure something’s gonna I’m just

gonna get asked every single time. And here’s the thing JBL. I think we’ll see. I think we’ll see. I think it’s hard anytime somebody get gets asked the question.

Are you thinking about running for president for them to be, like, nope. And stop asking me. I think people kinda like to leave the door open.

Pretty easy for me. Nope. I’m not gonna run for president.

No one’s gonna ask you about president.

The commenters on the next couple

of comment reviews are all saying the tips for president.

Several people in the iTunes reviews want me to run present. I appreciate your support, but I will not be running. Thank you.

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Okay. So we have Liz Cheney behaving like a grown up and a patriot, and then we have Christina,

Is he not acting like a patriot in a grown up?

So, Chris Sanuno, who once upon a time, said that Donald Trump would absolutely not be the nominee. Who then said that he he had a clear path to the Republican nomination, he being himself, Chris Sununu, but it was choosing not to because he could thought he could have even more influence as the sitting governor and not being in the campaign. Has now reconciled himself to Donald Trump probably being the nominee and said, look, am I gonna Am I gonna support him? Well, I am a Republican. So, you know, of course.

And, I guess that just means that whoever’s wearing the jersey, you have to vote for them no matter what. Jeffrey Dommer is the Republican nominee? I’m sorry, dude. I’m a Republican. What do you want me to do?

I don’t have any free will. This is, you know, I this is all predestined. This fucking guy.

This is Sarah. Guy.

So you used to you did not he was not St. Larry levels with you, but you liked Chris Sununu once upon a time.

Yeah. Look. I like all the moderate Republicans. These were my people. And some of them, in fact, most of them have disappointed me at depths.

I can’t even articulate. But let me just tell you why this new stuff is so bad. And I think I’ve made this point before, but It is one thing for Marjorie Taylor, Green and Lauren Bobert, and then a bunch of known Steve Danes who nobody knows who that is and all these people to rush out. And endorse Donald Trump, Mike Johnson, who also worked with him to overturn the election. Okay.

We expect that. The permission structures that get built by somebody like a Chris Sununu signals to normies. Their favorite way of rationalizing Donald Trump, which is, well, Democrats are worse. I couldn’t possibly vote for Joe Biden because I’m aware of all of Donald Trump’s flaws. And Joe Biden’s worst, but what’s crazy about this is that it’s like, Just after Sununu says, yes, of course.

Trump versus Biden and I go with Trump. Trump tweets, like, the most insane thing about how he would utilize the government to shut down MSNBC and, like, a insane attack on free speech, American values. I mean, this is a guy who said he wanted to dismantle the constitution. Terminate. Terminate.

Constitution. Obviously, did a coup. I mean, so Chris and Nuno, is in a category of, like, so if you take Larry Hogan, Larry Hogan is saying he is doing, I think, harm, with the third party stuff because he’s equating sort of an equivalency, and I think that’s bad. It is even worse though, what Kristinounu was doing, which is to not say they are equivalent, but that Trump is preferable. Based on what?

And this is where, to me, things become so so clear because it’s just, like, the policy what, like, what is it that Chris Sanuno, okay, so we don’t share Many of Joe Biden’s policy views, we certainly don’t share the policy views of some of the progressive base of the Democratic party. And yet, The idea that Donald Trump would be preferable to Joe Biden is, like, the most insane thing. And so anyway, Chris Sununu, I want to swear at you, but I won’t because I’m the nice one on this podcast.

It’s even more insane than you’re saying because this loyalty is unidirectional. Yeah. Chrissy, look, I could understand it. If Chris and Nuna was like, well, I gotta do this because, I’m gonna be the presidential nominee in twenty twenty eight. Or, well, you know, because I I got

a Treasury.

The Republican party hates Chris Sununu. Right? The the Donald Trump hates Chris Sununu. The Republican voters are never going to let him anywhere near power ever again, because they hate him. Because he’s not loyal to Donald Trump.

And yet Chris Sununu thinks that he’s got a like stick. I don’t understand it. And this is one of the real differences between Liz Jania and the Chris and owners of the world, of which there are many and very few Liz Janies. Sit Liz Cheney was able to see the world clearly. She was able to perceive reality clearly.

And Cristanu just lives in this fantasy land.

Yeah. I’ve got a message for Chris Sanuno because he isn’t a fantasy land and I don’t think that he I I really I genuinely think that Chris Sanuno knew. Is misguided and belize because, you didn’t say the top. We should say. I think we’re on the cusp of Christin’ New endorsing.

I assume Nikki Haley. He hasn’t said, but but Great. You indicated that he’s gonna endorse someone and they’re gonna campaign really hard in New Hampshire. And I and I do I think that Chris Sununu, he’s probably fooling himself, but he’s fooled himself into thinking that by keeping his street cred as a Republican, He can endorse Nikki and make a difference to help her and that that’s the thing that he can do that best help stop Donald Trump. And I’m here to look Chris and who knew in the eye and say, wrong.

Wrong. What you are actually doing right now is helping Donald Trump more than Vivic. More than Vivic, more than Lauren Vobert, more than Marjorie Taylor Green. What Chris Sununu is doing right now is the thing that Donald Trump could most use, which is get air cover from people that feel normal. To help create as Sarah said that permission structure to get Wall Street Journal reading Republicans comfortable with voting for Donald Trump again over Joe Biden.

Get the same people we’re talking about in the last segment, the the Atlanta suburbs dads, the Buckhead dads, you know, who voted for Mitt Romney. The, like, in the way that Liz Cheney can influence them to vote for Joe Biden, Chris Sanoun who can speak to them. They’re not that many of these people, They are on the margins and the margins matter and the margins matter in these key states. And what Chris Anuno is doing by calling Donald Trump a fucking insane person by endorsing Nikki Haley, and then by turning around and saying, well, I tried my best. I’m gonna vote for Donald Trump now.

If he was trying to help Donald Trump win, that is the best thing that he could do to help him. Honestly, because if he had just endorsed Trump, then he’d be nobody then then nobody talked about it. You just endorsed Trump, you just be another one of these, you know, schmoes who’s got come along for Donald Trump. But but if he wants to to help influence the swing voters to vote for Donald Trump, then then he’s doing the thing that that would be the most helpful to him. So I I I I genuinely think that he has convinced himself that he is helping his own career, but also, you know, in his own little way, stop Trump.

He is not He’s helping Donald Trump. If you know Chris Sanuno, please send this to him and let him know. Maybe he won’t care, actually. Maybe he wants Donald Trump to win. I don’t I don’t fucking know Chris Sanuno from Adam, so maybe he won’t care, but the but the at least at least he could work from the accurate information.

And and and I think that there are a lot of people in his ear telling him that this is the best thing you can do. You can you save your influence You keep your influence this way. You stay in the mix, you know, and you can help nudge the party. All of his consultants are telling him that, and those consultants are fucking selfish, and they’re wrong, and people should be in his ear telling him that, no. Actually, what he’s doing is helping Donald Trump.

If Chris and Unu can take Nikki Haley from a one in ten thousand shot to a one in one thousand shot, then that is helpful.

So long as

he is

not also, like increasing Trump’s odds of beating Biden by, like, one percent.

Even point one percent. Even moving it from forty nine point eight to forty nine point nine is much more significant.

Your help for Haley can’t come at the expense then of, like, helping to normalize and then help elect Trump in the general. That’s that’s what these guys don’t seem to understand.

Like

Yeah. Which is one of the big I I think that there is gonna be a moment that is gonna be sort of deja vuish, but also, like, deeply heartbreaking. I can see it this happening for me where Niki Haley makes, like, a decent run, you know, better than we probably thought out of the gate. Right? She becomes the just Santa’s just sucking so hard.

She she she’s getting in the thirties, like and we get a whole little hopeful. Sometimes every now and then I squint, and I can see it and I get a little hopeful before I, like, tell myself the truth again. Then there’s gonna be this moment where Nikki Haley endorses Donald Trump after he’s the nominee. And where Chris Sunu does it. Like, Chris Christie won’t, but, like, a bunch of people will, and gonna give that permission structure again, and then they’re gonna do it this time.

This is the thing. I just think people forget that, like, when you say Adam Kinsinger voted for Trump in twenty twenty, or Liz Cheney voted for Trump in twenty twenty. Those are bad. I think we had a lot of information at that point to say that Trump was utterly disqualified from being president again, but he hadn’t done the coup yet. He hadn’t refused to leave office.

And so the extent to which you could rationalize that. To me is like the most deep and pathetic, and that’s what they’re all gonna do.

It is what they’re all gonna do. My rage I’ve been, like, trying not to write about this because I, like, I want my rage to bubble and curdle all the way up to the moment it actually happens. I can really fully spell it out onto my Google document when it actually happens rather than rather than pre raging. But it is gonna happen. And I’m I’m gonna be very upset with all these people.

I’m gonna give you a stern finger wag. One other thing we’d have no bulwark debate this morning about the Haley momentum. And and and I you can squint and see her coming back. And I and and I feel like I need to do the wind up every time, which is, like, And I hope I hope she comes back. And I hope I’m wrong, and I don’t really like Nikki Haley because she is gonna endorse down with Trump, and I would vote for Joe Biden over Nikki Haley, but she’d be a million times better than Donald Trump, and so it would be great if I’m wrong about this.

The thing is that, like, what you just said Sarah about, then I come back to reality is, like, That’s all fine and well and good to do and say, and it’s fine to want a supporter. And and if the cokes wanna spend millions of their largess, to help her good on him. I haven’t actually seen it. And they’ve spent some, but they put out a big memo. I I think it probably would’ve been helpful to spend the money and not put out the memo.

But, okay, that’s a nitpick. If they wanna

spend some

They could do some ads about how smart she is on on immigration and how businesses need more immigration.

This is where I’m this is where I’m going. Here’s the thing that I just I I really that that still for some reason has not sunk in with people, and and I’m just gonna keep saying it and maybe it’ll sink in eventually. The Republican Party voters have looked at the policy agenda that the Coke Network has offered, and they have rejected it with just the with utter derision. Like, they haven’t just kind of rejected it. They haven’t just said, oh, you know, it’s not our cup of tea.

They have said, I spit on you. You are disgusting the old school globalist open borders, corporate tax cuts, Republicans, are, like, worse than everybody except for, like, Rashida Tlaib. Right? Verman for for the Republican base. They are Verman.

Alright? And and and so that’s just where we’re at. Like, there are there still some Republicans out there? Sure. Is there still a quarter of the party or twenty five percent?

What? Twenty percent or thirty? I don’t know. Yeah. Sure.

Sure. There’s still some people, you know, my dad’s still out there. He’s still reading the Wall Street Journal. You know, like, like, these people still exist. But, like, the party has looked at the cokes, For cycle after cycle after cycle and rejected them, the types of the there are people that were attracted to that message that have left the party.

There are people that used to be attracted to that message that have changed their mind. Because Donald Trump has, polluted their mind, and they’re they’ve joined a cult. And so the numbers of people that agree with that have gone down within the party on on both sides. Okay. And they just they don’t matter.

So if the cokes though wanna try to do something different and run a bunch of ads that’s like down in terms of loser, Donald Trump’s an idiot, like Donald Trump, you know, Nikki Haley would beat Joe Biden by by ten points and and I I don’t know. They can test all the message they want. If they wanna try this, that’s fine. But, like, announcing that big rich people that are immigration Doves are supporting your candidacy is actually a net loss for your candidacy. It’s a it actually hurts her.

So Maybe they’ll do it. May I hope that they do the right thing. Maybe they’ll make a difference on the margins, but, like, you know, you have to realize what is actually happening among Republican Party voters.

Are they gonna spend money to help Biden in the general if trump is the nominee?

No. Of course not. Why not? Again, I don’t you’re right. I know that they’re I’m gonna get in trouble because I know there are people involved in this that have their hearts in the right place.

And so at running ads against Trump isn’t that good. But why are they not gonna do it? Because my assessment is that this is a face safe. That’s why you put out the memo It’s like, hey, we’re signaling. We do not I’m sure Charles and whatever.

I we do not like Donald Trump. And so we’re gonna tell people we’re gonna run ads against them. That’s better than not doing it. Doing it ten months ago, doing better than doing it now. But this is not a genuine effort to to do everything possible to stop Trump.

That’s not what this is.

So I have a I’m gonna take the counter position on this. So number one, ten months ago, I think they were spending money, maybe not ten months ago, but, like, five or six months ago, they were spending money that was kind of the way a bunch of us who were trying to figure out, how do you find any cracks in this primary? Right? How do you make an argument? And you have sort of an anybody Trump.

With that big field, you’re like, okay, anybody but anybody but trump. So how do we create space, sort of open this up? And I don’t think that’s a crazy thing for them to do. What they’re doing right now that to me is different and that I don’t think they could have done any earlier is they’re backing someone. And agree with you on the voters.

That’s sort of like a separate thing. But let’s just take for a second. A consolidation of the donor class, like, it’s not like just Charlie Sykes is gonna spend money. There’s like a massive network behind him that he’s gonna move. It’s gonna create a permission structure for the Ken Griffiths of the world and a bunch of other people who were DeSantis people.

To so and so, like, to the extent that the undercard race has always been about, Donald Trump’s eventually gonna get a one on one contest. And who is that going to be? Right? For me, Nikki Haley being the alternative is so much better. Than it being Ron DeSantis.

And I also think that we should acknowledge, like, that the cokes are sublimating some of the things that do to them. Like, they are talk about doves. They’re foreign policy doves. Right? They don’t want they don’t support Nikki Haley’s view of foreign policy.

But they have decided they could get back Ron DeSantis. But I think they don’t think DeSantis is good, and they think his attacks on free speech and his effort to use the government in ways and his all his additional anti democratic behavior, like, them getting behind Nikki and moving the whole donor class there. Now it could be fantasy politics, but, like, isn’t this what we ask people to do? Isn’t this what we desperately want out of some members of the Republican Party? To me, I don’t wanna criticize them for doing what I think is, like, objectively the right thing.

I may agree with you down the road that, like, the fact that People who believe that Trump is this existential threat to democracy are willing to break protocol and go this hard in a primary, but then not do something in a general. Like, that will frustrate me as well to no end. But, like, this is to me unequivocally good and the right thing. And this idea that, like, it hurts Nikki. That’s, like, maybe, but it’s sort of, like, the argument you gave to me about Liz Cheney with Joe Biden.

It’s like, well, She’s gotta consolidate from somewhere. And she’s sorta gotta start with those move on from trumpers and, like, the old school Republicans, and the Coke have they’ve got like a door knocking apparatus. They’ve got a huge ground game. They do have data. So I don’t know.

I just don’t think it’s nothing. I, like, I agree with you that at the end of the day, part of the problem is that the old establishment donor class doesn’t understand what’s happened to voters. They just do not comprehend what’s happened to the party, but that to me doesn’t negate the fact that, like, this is an unequivocal good and they’re doing the right thing.

I guess I do agree with the part that I would rather them spend the money to help Nikki Haley than not. I do agree with that. So I guess that’s a net good. I guess you put it that way. My point is that my critique is of the meta variety of the analysis of this, which is which I continues to miss you bring Ken Griffin on.

Like, there’s an entire cottage industry of reporters that are like do Ken Griffin whispers, and Ken Griffin likes the attention, And there’s a political article, and it’s like Ken might move from Ron DeSantis to Nikki Haley. Or Ken might send it out. Or Ken might It’s like it doesn’t fucking matter what Ken does. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

Jeff, we spent a hundred million. Ron DeSantis had two hundred million. Like, I what? A hundred million is gonna help Nikki? How much are these people gonna spend?

Do they wanna spend two billion? Okay. Well, let’s spend two billion. I I thought okay. Maybe that’ll do a difference.

The voters do not like these people, and their ads do not matter because Donald Trump is leading a cult, and they’ve spent eight years sitting on their hands while the the people got deeper and deeper into this cult and we’re fed propaganda. Right? And so, like, so again, is it good? Yeah. Does it mat on on balance, like, on a tiny little sliver?

Sure. Does it matter? No. Because the

Nice if they save, like, half the cash for the general. That’s all.

Yeah. Where it could matter. That’s where it could matter. That’s like, that is that is my point. And so it’s fine.

Do it. But I just, like, this Oh, you know, we need to write an article. I I just it feels so twenty eleven to me. That’s like, oh, we need to have a political article and it’s on drudge, and we’re gonna have cable segments about what Ken Griffin or Charlie Sykes are gonna do. The Republican Party hates these people.

They hate them. So, like, Do it. Oh, don’t do it. Do whatever you feel is right in your conscience. And I and I hope that you spend the money in the general too, and I think it’s gonna be find for them to do it.

The I just like acting like it’s a big deal, I think, is wrong.

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I don’t even know we had that great deal. This is news to me. I didn’t read I didn’t read the transcript closely enough. That is exciting. It’s a

quite good deal. Mark Cuban. Made a little bit of news this week. He sold off part of his stake. In the Mavs.

Majority stake.

The the majority state did he solve all of his his because he still is making He’s still in charge of the team, I think.

Yeah. You cut a deal with Miriam Adelson. You might know her?

Sheldon. Sheldon’s widow.

Sheldon’s widow. And, Las Vegas Sands cut a deal with them, and, Miriam and Madison Family is now the majority owner of the Dallas Mavericks Basketball modern. As part of the deal, Mark Cuban is still in charge of day to day operations. So he cuts some deal that allowed him to to still have control over the,

you know,

the basketball programming.

What else? He did something else.

I mean

He also left the shirt tag.

Oh, he left shirt tag.

Last season. He shot a shark tank and he sold the Mavericks. That’s interesting.

Obviously, everybody immediately jumps to so he’s running as a third party. Right? So this is this is the the thing. Do you guys have thoughts on that?

I mean, my thoughts

are like like you want to gouge your eyes out

the amount of third party chatter we are going to have to endure for such a long time. This was my point before about Liz Cheney. It’s just like We’re about to be in a Liz Cheney third party news cycle, because she’s got a book and like everyone’s gonna ask her. And then we’re gonna now we’re gonna well, simultaneously, I guess being in a more Cuban third party news cycle, along with no labels whenever they do, like, their weird convention along with Cornell West and r f k and

And Jill Stein.

That lady who always runs, on the green party ticket and it’s just the worst, all of it. Somebody talked me down on the Mark Cuban thing that he’s gonna do this. Because I think Somebody I got some texts last night, and I was an unequivocal no, and I have my reasons for that that I might not share. But, let’s just say I have gone down this third party route before aggressively and talked to many of the names that get floated around in a lot of these cases.

And Like such a shark poo bond? Such as shark Poupon?

I don’t

I don’t I don’t

even I I I get your joke now, but I’m not I’m all I’m saying is, like, I was told no by a great many people at the time who have showed renewed interest this time And I don’t understand why since nobody would take on Trump, in a Republican primary when it was really necessary back in twenty twenty.

Can talk you soon a little bit from it. Me and Bill talked about this briefly last night on YouTube, if you will check out the me and Bill’s Tuesday night lives on YouTube. We I just wait till after he’s had a few glasses of wine, and kinda get him lubed up. He starts talking about all of his fantasies, alcohol, alcohol, Sarah. Don’t give that face.

Do you strap it

on too?

J v l. Come on. Oh, that is great. Yeah. This is yucky.

This is Bill crystal is the eminence. How do you say that word? Em. Eminence grease? Eminal Sc grease.

He’s I think I think he’s just person

that I don’t I don’t think his s is. I think it’s Eminal’s Gree.

Yeah. Minal Scree. So anyway, after that, I I sent a text just to, to one of my friends. That is, let’s just say, very well acquainted with the mindset of NBA basketball owners and a and assorted people. He’s he’s one of the rich people, you know, hangers on.

He’s not gonna like to be called a hangers on, but you know what I mean? One of the people that, you know, that works for the very wealthy that that help

that help the health team’s discount. Raining NBA finals MVP.

He’s not. It’s not Nicole. Yeah. It’s not an basketball player. Sorry.

But but he understands the mindset of the of the Uber rich, better than I do. Obviously, based on my rant in the last segment. And, his take was, that there is some, like, complicated basketball reasons for why he might be doing this and that and that the Mavericks are interested in creating like a casino outside the stadium and And by partnering with Las Vegas sands, like, and now q and there are certain rules in the NBA, and now Cuban can be the majority shareholder of that. And there’s there’ll be like a you know, there’ll be a new complex in Dallas that’s like casino and resort and you know, it’ll be the Las Vegas of the Plains. What is what is what what do you call Dallas?

Was Dallas on a on a plane? Whatever. And And that is pop the real the real reason. It’s like it is, you know, rich guy wanting to get richer. Not rich guy wanting to run for president.

So that could be that very well could be. Though I I do feel like while I might not know Uber wealthy bass about owners and their motivations that well, I do kind of know the motivations of super narcissists pretty well. And man, I do think it’s gotta a lot of these guys are looking in the mirror when they’re shaving in the morning right now. And they’ve they they turned off morning, Joe. In a morning, Joe, they’re having their nineteenth straight segment about how the polls look bad for Joe Biden and nobody likes Joe Biden and nobody likes Donald Trump and nobody wants you that these guys to run, and they look in the mirror and they say.

Why not me?

Why not me? Why not me?

And I do I I I do want I do worry about that a little bit in the Cuban instant. That, it might very well just be this mundane casino rationale. But I worry a little bit that there might be a why not me happening.

Because this is what happens. Like, this is my point about all of them, even ones that aren’t super narcissists, even ones that would do it for the right reason, is that there is something deeply intoxicating about a bunch of people coming up to you to be like, you should really be president. And, like, you get a bunch of, like, fake consultants to tell you your path and how it could work. And they show you the stupid no label stuff of like sees sixty percent of Americans want an alternative in which in which they are inserting their fantasy candidate, which incidentally is not you person I’m talking to.

But Or maybe it is you for eight percent of them, but for another eight percent, it’s the rock. And for another eight percent, it’s Bernie Sanders, and for another eight percent, it’s Jerry Fallwell junior. Like, it’s like this is not a con it’s not a coherent group of sixty.

Yeah. And this is where good old established basic Me gets really, really annoyed with the establishment of the whispers between the donor class. This, like, famous person who maybe could be president class and or ex politician or whatever class and then the the media the media who then is like, I’m so bored with Joe Biden versus Trump that I am going to spend lots of ink talking about Using about these third party candidates, I’m gonna get endless calls about these. And my answer, just hear me now, is no to all of them.

This is a new triangle.

Triangle of doom. It’s just no

It’s a new triangle.

It’s a hack it together.

The triangle of vanity. The triangle of vanity. Go trade mark that right now, Sarah. That’s yours.

The answer is no to all of them. Yeah. And I will say, for people who didn’t watch the Bullwork Live in DC, that’s up on YouTube right now. I did a I did a water bottle And and Mark Cuban seems like, again, I don’t know. I haven’t looked at the list of his policy prescriptions.

He seems like there’s a lot of things. He seems like he hasn’t thought about that deeply, but just directionally speaking. Markkeeping kinda seems like a center centrist neo liberal. And and if we were in a race between Mike Johnson and and Elon Omar, like, I’d probably be gung ho. About Mark Cuban’s candidacy.

But, like, that’s just not where we’re at. And and, unfortunately, Mark Cuban, as evidenced by the fact that he voted for Joe and then hold Joe Biden’s positions on all the major cultural issues as part of the Joe Biden coalition. And, you know, this is, like, when Sarah gets those calls, I got a couple calls from rich people time. And I and my first question was always, okay. Tell me a cultural issue that you agree with Donald Trump on silence.

Alright. It’s like, Alright. Well, then you’re you’re you’re part of the Joe Biden Coalition. Call me back call me back when you have if you found a rich person that wants to run that can take Donald Trump voters because they think that we have alligator motes on the border or think that woke ism is the greatest problem facing our society or whatever.

Or don’t like peaceful transitions of power.

Yeah. Do you be able to do anything on Cubing? Because I have one more rant about capitalism really fast.

If you don’t mind. We’re running very, very long.

Oh, no. We’re not. So this is,

you can have it a rant this is

up your alley. You gotta

move to

the ranch about capitalism. Are you ready for this?

I’m here for that.

Nothing turns me into Bernie Sanders more than talking about sports team owners. Okay. Do you know what Mark Cuban? How much Mark Cuban made on the Dallas Mavericks? You wanna guess?

I I know this. And he paid two hundred thirty million, I think. And he’s sold his stake for two billion?

Three point five. Three point five.

Three point five. So

so the valuation now, I don’t know if you actually made three billion. I I Markiva was the kind of guy that was probably running operational losses. I’m sure he’s writing that off in his taxes, but it’s in the billions. I I can’t imagine he took more than a billion in operational losses. So just be nice to mark you, but let’s say you made two billion.

Twenty years. It’s been two decades. He’s on the team. Twenty years. He made two billion.

Like, that should be garnish ed and given back to the people of Dallas, or at least a percentage of that. Like sports teams are not capitalism. Okay? Sports teams are not capitalism. In a free market, in an act in actual capital, sports teams are cartel.

There are thirty teams. The head of the league gets to decide who owns them. There are lots of people that want to own them. Anytime a new team comes up, there are many, many people. Owners

get to decide who owns. Yeah. It’s even worse than the the

the head of the league. Yeah. The owner’s decided. To decide. Okay.

It it if you were a rich guy in Dallas that made a lot of money inventing a widget, or striking oil underneath the ground. And you decided, I don’t think Mark Cuban is doing a very good job with his team. The Dallas Mavericks have not won the championship in ten years now. You can’t start a new NBA team in Dallas. You can’t start like the Dallas oilmen and compete against against Mark Cuban.

And and and join the NBA. It’s not like, you know, you’re running a, a laundromat, and you’re doing a shitty job, like, your people’s buttons are falling off their shirts so you can start a competing laundromat across the street. That’s how a free market works. This is not a free market. It is a cartel.

And it is managed by the league and they get all they get tax write offs for it. And and it’s a prestige business that that you only get into if members of the club let you in. And to make three billion off of that, like, is, like, is is is turning me red company. It’s turning me red commie. And in Denver, and in den this rant is especially true because in Denver, we have owners who won’t cut a deal with the local TV station.

So people can’t watch the games on TV. And it’s like you it’s like you are given this, like, this is like being bestowed being able to be a team owner, you’re being bestowed with something. You have an obligation and a responsibility to the community. If you made three billion dollars back, that then I’m sure that you should get to keep some of it. Mark Cuban added some investments.

They should be able to write all that

off. What? You did find Dirk nowitzki. Yeah. Yeah.

You did a lot of great stuff. But but, like, it is that is a crazy amount of money to make for doing nothing He really didn’t. He really he could’ve done nothing and and made and made most of that money. Right? Like, it’s not he didn’t invent anything.

He didn’t create anything. He just got about twenty nine other rich guys just picked him to be the lucky number thirty.

Sarah, do you have a rebuttal?

So my my business, understanding of of sports is right up there with my regular understanding. Not in sports rules, obviously I’ve played sports, but like professional sports.

Like, if it started listing players from the nineteen eighties. Yeah.

So I didn’t actually know what you just told me. That was new information to me that Tim just gave about the cartel elements.

Really?

So you’re just taking

There’s a there’s a famous so there’s a famous Spring case about this dating back to Major League Baseball in which there was an antitrust lawsuit against Major League Baseball, because it is a cartel. It’s monopoly. And Congress carved out an antitrust exemption for baseball. And so, essentially, it is a it is a recognition that professional sports leagues are cartels, but they are exempt from antitrust law.

On what grounds?

On legislative grounds. Like, little just because we we consider them, the the Congress considers a category difference. Congress just says everybody likes their baseball. So you can’t you can’t decide to set up literally, say, I’m gonna set up the New York Zephyr’s as a competing baseball team with the yankees and the mets. You just you can’t do that.

And that normally would be, antitrust behavior, but we’re gonna say that it’s okay for major league baseball to do that. This is the law that governs all of professional sports in America.

Anyway, congratulations to the Cuban Progyny, the kids and grandkids. Who all get to dine out on this generational wealth forever, even though their dad did nothing. Really? Except own the sports team and get to set court side and have a great time. And then build some new facilities.

That’s nice. It’s all great. It’s all good. I I mean, you know, that’s all good. I just I think maybe some of that money should go back into the community.

I don’t know. Build some housing or something. That’s just me. Maybe I’m a communist now.

To be fair, he is gonna pay taxes on it. Right? Like, he’s gonna pay Sure.

Yeah. Short dam. I’ll I’ll be interested to see. Well, if you likely, the good news is if Mark Cuban runs for president, I will get to see his tax returns.

No.

And and democracy might come to an end when Donald Trump

They don’t have to give us their tax returns anymore.

Yeah. My guess is there were a lot of losses that they got to write But, yeah, sure. I’m sure he paid some taxes on it.

Okay. So I before we go, we have this super fan named Holly.

Holly.

Did you guys see Holly’s latest? So she does these, like, parodies of us?

Fair me.

She’s got you down.

She has me down the best. Like, she ends up, like, with Tim, she had to go, like, full costume, and so, like, she’s capturing trump or she’s capturing Tim’s, like, essence, But with me, she’s doing a literal impression, right down to my favorite part was that she was drinking the whole time, not alcohol, but, like, I am also in need of constant fluids, and so she was, like, drinking. She her vest, like, she is a perfect imitation.

She does a, like, sure. Right. You’re you’re okay.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Fantastic. Just love it. Fantastic. Call you

in the valley.

Guys, we will see you on Sunday with the Sunday next level.

Bye. It’s gonna be good.