A Republican Party That Is So Toxic (with Jane Lynch)

Hello, and welcome to The Sunday Edition of The Next Secret Podcast. I’m Tim Miller here with my best friend, Sarah Longwell, and her aspiring best lesbian friend our guest today. Jane Lynch. If you don’t know Jane. Oh

my god. So great. It’s so

good. If you don’t know Jane, she was sue Celestron Glee, obviously. She’s in the show only murders in the building and party down on right now. She’s had an amazing career. She’s also like this big never Trump political stand and used to tweet louder about it.

She’s might be getting off Twitter a little bit. Sarah, what’d you think? How was the interview?

Well, it was amazing for me. I had to trade JBL two other episodes in order to get the Jane Lynch episode, which I desperately wanted because as we discussed in the show, she was also on the l word, which was very formative for me. I love Jane Lynch so much. And you tried to, like, hoard her as your friend when she got into her never Trump phase and she was talking to you. But since she started to DM me and I found out that she listens to the secret.

She listens to the next level. She said she listens to Charlie Sykes day. And so it was just just what a thrill. It

was a thrill, but I did have the most mortifying moment of my life. Which you guys have to stay for, which was we discovered. For for years, I’d had bad dreams, not years, but months, I had bad dreams and fretted about a typo in the book. And I really I only had one typo that I’d learned about. And I learned about another typo live with Jane Lynch, which was, you know, in her blog,

Oh, wait. She said there was a typo in her blurb. There

was a typo in her blurb. I was reading her blurb to her, and she was like, oh, yeah. That was a typo. Like, how what she had sent. I didn’t do her justice.

She blurred my book and then I did then we didn’t do it right anyway. We’re fixing it for the paper back. Listen to the whole interview. It’s gonna be great. Two other things really quick.

I feel like we’ve had we’ve had two actors out. We have some other interesting people coming from other realms of life here in the next few weeks. You’re gonna love it on the Sunday show. But if you’ve been loving the Hollywood episodes, Sunny bunch. It has a culture vertical here.

Across the movie, I always a great podcast. Bora goes to Hollywood, a newsletter, and a podcast check that out if you haven’t already. But as is our tradition here, we wanna do a little bit of politics on the top before we get to the interview. I will tell you Jane wanted to talk a lot about politics. So we’ll keep this tight because there’s plenty of politics in this interview.

Jane wanted to quiz us at the end. So plenty of politics. But, Sarah, I I want to get your take on two things. I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. You’re maybe a little less radical than I was in your loathing and hatred of the don’t say gay bill.

You hated it, but you were maybe a little bit more nuanced. Let’s say nuanced in your love than I was, I think. And what we’ve seen now I don’t know if you’ve seen this that now we are going up to k to twelve. Florida’s expanding this. Yeah.

To k to twelve. Meanwhile, also in Florida, in Charlie Sykes’s amazing newsletter, this Friday morning. Morning shots go read it. There’s a principal in Florida who was fired this week for showing sixth graders. Michael Angelo’s the David This is a Simpsons episode come to life.

The little peanut the little peanut is fired over it. And so I just I want kind of an updated. I wanna put order in the machine and get an updated serotype about concerns about the DeSantis education regime. As we get more and more facts coming to the table. Well,

let me just say as a background, I think my more nuanced take, which I think all my takes are more nuanced than yours, but we’ll just leave

that

aside for a second. But I think my my thing was that with the don’t say gabille, you could sort of drive a truck through the word instruction. Right? Like, the way that they talk about it sounds normal to anybody who says, like, yes, I do not think we should be instructing, you know, kindergarteners on non binary gay, whatever. Okay?

The question is, is like, is anything a teacher says instruction? And we were not gonna find that out until we were ensconced in litigation and there’s more definition around what instruction means. And before we’ve really gotten that definition now though we’re expanding it because, you know, Ron DeSantis is now in a Republican primary where Nikki Haley is accusing him of not going far enough, she would go to fifth grade with her don’t say gay version, and then Ron DeSantis is like, no no no no. We’re gonna take it up until senior year, which by the way, at this point, People are in relationships. And, like, this is like a this is bananas.

But the thing about that, the thing about the David thing that is just wild, is this is a school that the parents had sent their kids to explicitly because it was a some kind of specific kind of education like a classical art see education yet. A

classical. It’s like Will Saletan. It’s a Hillsdale, all classical.

So I think that I think that the whokeism might be jumping the shark. I would say it’s jumping to David and this is this is where it all goes too far. And maybe there might actually be some backlash here because this is This is Asinine. Yeah.

It’s deeply concerning. We have a we have a lot more ahead on gay stuff on politics with chain lunch. You’re gonna really enjoy it. We’ll be back on Wednesday with JBL. Our weekly next level and catch it in.

Hey, Jane. Thank you so much for doing this. You have no idea how excited we are. I am so excited. I wore the same exact sweater that you did.

Okay. And

I know we’re a study in cream and then Sarah Longwell course, had to throw in some pink and some blue to throw the whole palette off, but that’s okay. But

I’m here for

disappointing. Yeah. So usually, you know, I’m new to this interviewing game, but you my understanding is usually, you’re supposed to, like, butter up the guest. With the first

interview, you kind of

warm them up. No. I’m gonna butter up the host instead. Just kind of a little change of pace. One thing I’ve noticed You seem to have like this affection for never trumpers.

I know. You’re reading the Bulwark or you’re tweeting the Lincoln Project, you’re talking to Will Saletan about how much you love Tom Nichols. In a way that I was a little

bit jealous of actually. It hurt my feelings a little bit, but I didn’t mention you. What

is your never Trump? Is are you a moderate to them? Or do you just love our conversion story? Or is it my handsomeness? Like, what is it?

Do you think?

Yeah. Well, it’s all of those things really when probably up at the top is your handsomeness. But I would say that it’s you guys are making sense and there’s so much in this world that doesn’t make sense. Now, don’t get me wrong. I love Jamie Raskin, and I love Schiff.

Shifty Schiff? Yeah. Shifty Schiff with the pencil neck. Mhmm. I love him I love a lot of Democrats, but the Democratic Party just is is ineffective.

And I think when all is told when the story is written, they’re going to be seen as the great enablers who just like Bannon said, just flood the zone, and he’s absolutely right. You flood the zone and everybody just falls apart. It’s not about willingness. It’s it’s the ability to mount a defense because this has been an attack. As you know, I mean, you left the Republican party to mount your own attack.

And I do love a redemption story. But I will say this though, I’ve I you know, I was in a tribe. And this is something that I’ve come to learn about myself and about humanity on Twitter. We love being in a tribe. And sometimes we get so inoculated into the What’s opposite of the tribe?

Sometimes we don’t even believe what the whole tribe thinks. Like, this whole thing about, you know, vaccination and masking, you know, and I’m all for them, but people going crazy about that. Stuff. And then on the other side, people going, I mean, so many people died because they were in a tribe. It’s a a cultishness that we’re all prone to as humans, I think.

Not us. We just formed, like, a tiny little tribe with ourselves, like, the never trumpers. Yeah. And but you’re saying that you think we were a fact role in a way that the democrats aren’t? Is that is that the great thing I’m taking from what you said?

Yes. That’s a wonderful thing you’re

taking in. It’s absolutely true. And I wish that know, I had, you know, how you have those kind of sorkan esque fantasies. I thought, what if I like the Bulwark in the Lincoln project? You know, meet I bet they’re meeting with the DNC.

And together, they’re coming up with this plan and that Rick Wilson’s gonna write the ads and And that didn’t happen. I I really thought that that perhaps would happen. And and it didn’t Like, they’re not asking you for advice. Are they the DNC?

I’m not getting a lot of calls. No. But are you getting Sarah, you got a couple more calls than me, I think. Do you get some calls?

I I mean, I could some people. They listen. Mhmm. But I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t say that we we are out of tribe and and we will sort of always be I think they’re interested in what we’re saying, and occasionally might gut check a thing or two. But generally speaking, they do not see us as And can I just give an example

of that? I don’t know about you, Sarah Longwell I I invited myself to the White House one time since Joe Biden has won, which I was really grateful. But I haven’t been invited. We haven’t had secret I’m not begging to be invited. Your Sorkanian fantasy is the nightmare of a lot of our old Republican folks who think that, like, we did this because know, we wanna be invited to the the state dinners and the Georgetown cock and allow I wouldn’t mind going to a state dinner, but I I don’t my phone don’t know.

If if anybody at the White House is listening to this, and I’m sure a couple of you are, I I wouldn’t mind getting invited to one sometime, but I mean yet to be we don’t have strategy. Session. Yeah. You know, we’re just out here just like doing doing our deal. And

the thing is is what’s great about y’all is that, you know, Joe Biden was elected because of you guys. And kind of that offensive that the never trumpers mounted that, you know, I think that was a lot that pushed people over the edge and got also got people. You mean you mean Republican voters against Trump? Yes. Just like the cup you’re sipping.

Exactly.

To you. Do you have those any of those people in your life? Do you have, like I know you’re from Chicago. It’s kind of a blueberry. Do you have, like, Republican types in your life?

Other folks who’ve made our journey?

Not that I know of. I have suspicions about a couple of people in my family, but they probably wouldn’t say anything. I don’t know anybody, you know, or talk about tribal. I I don’t know anybody who voted for Trump or is even

You’re in your Montecito bubble.

Yeah. Exactly. Well, I was in LA before this. You had

more Will Saletan voters than than than than than than But This is

a Montecito is is a Republican area. It’s a lot of it. It’s old money. It’s old people with old money. People come here to retire.

That’s one of the reasons my wife and I came here is because we wanted to feel young again. We’re definitely we we walked down the street and we’re we’re definitely the youngest. But boy, these people are fit and they’re wealthy and they used to be. Republicans, but there were a, you know, a lot of signs that houses, you know, anything but Trump, you know, vote for Biden, just let let’s vote for a grown up. This one person had in front of their house.

Let’s vote for the grown up. I

have a couple of political questions for you for you to the fun stuff, but I do wanna compliment myself one more time. I will say that you you wrote that my book was the your bum of Gilead. And I have to tell you a Gillian.

Gillian. I didn’t even know what that was. It’s bomb of Gillian. I didn’t even

know what that was. I was so it. I was like, I’m putting this on the book. It seems smart, but I was like, I don’t is this biblical? Where did you come up with that?

It’s bomb in Gilead. The preposition was incorrect on the book. You’re my mom and Gilead. B a l m is, like, your sav, your bat which calms you and soothes you. And Gilead was, like, lip balm.

Yep. Like, lip balm when you have chapped lips, What is that a reference to? Is that is

that a

Will Saletan is a town in the bible. It’s referenced in the bible and it’s where Gomorrah. It’s kind of like, what’s what’s the other one? Something in Gamora?

Sono and Gamora. Yeah. A lot. Tim knows that one. Tim

knows a lot about sodom. There you go. Good. Well, it’s like it’s like the next town over Gilead is. So it’s kind of like a dark place, like a hellish place.

Okay. And

you’re my mom and Gilead. So it’s not like a lesbian thing or like a musical

No. No. No. In fact, there’s a typical. There’s a play called Bauma and Gilead that the great step in the theater company did a production of Stanford Wilson, I believe, is the Playwright, and it went to New York, and it was a big hit, and Laurie Metcalf was the star, and it was wonderful.

So it’s the name of a boy named Laurie Metcalf. Yeah. She’s wonderful. At the the play is called Baum and Gilead.

Okay. Well, I’m just I’m honored to be your Baum. So we’re here. It’s twelve twelve on Tuesday. We are taping this is gonna air on Sunday.

We’re just praying that between now and Sunday, we might get the mug shot of our dreams. At least I’m praying. I don’t know where Sarah I would love to take your ladies’ sake. What is your what’s your level of anticipation? Are you nervous about it?

Are you excited? Do you have do you have champagne on ice where do you stand right now on the possibility of a mugshot?

I am a little disappointed. This is very conventional wisdom, but disappointed that we’re gonna get the weakest case first. I think it’s set up for we’ve been set up for a very annoying week here with a lot of people talking about the ticky tacky charges of the porn star. Mhmm. It’s one that could be easily to missed and kind of laughed out when, of course, the incitement to in its direction, the telling the Secretary of State of Georgia to find votes.

Like, there’s a much more significant enditements, I think, to come and to start out with this one is not my favorite.

What’s the downer?

And if indicted alone with just this Charlie Sykes only a misdemeanor. It’s not even a felony. It has to be coupled with other Charlie Sykes. So we don’t know right now if it’ll be a felony. It might just be a misdemeanor.

Let’s

set all that aside for a second and just kind of appreciate for a moment just like the mug shot. Just like to do when you think about the mugshot, does that at least bring you a little joy? Can you separate your punditry from the mugshot joy or no?

I think because this guy just turns everything around, it’s gonna be a full tooth smile.

It is

with the thumbs up and with the thumbs up and people are gonna get t shirts made, manga’s gonna get t shirts made. They’re gonna be mugs. You know, everybody’s gonna have the hat of that mug shot. And if it’s a perk walk, his hands will probably be in the handcuffs, but he’ll find a way to thumbs up. And also, I heard that they probably in New York State, they don’t have to release the mugshot.

I heard that. And he would love he wants a perb walk from

what I understand. I don’t know where I heard it. Just skimming the interwebs. This is why gays and lesbians like cats and dogs. Just all this all this practicality —

Mhmm. — you know, the downer vision. Like, I’m just can we just have our joy? We just wanna celebrate. We just wanna keep over here.

Okay? I wanna get an arrest and do a kiki. You guys can’t can’t let me have that? What’s a kiki? Like

little party. Even I knew that one.

Oh, did you?

They covered that song on Glee. It was Sarah Jessica Parker.

Yeah. Yeah.

That’s right. I only watched my scenes. That’s good.

The dashes as the law allows police to withhold mug shops, but it does not mandate that they kept private. So I I imagine this one a leak. Anyway, I wanted to keep you. You guys are taking me down. Sarah, do you have other political topics that are maybe more joyful or more you know, any burning questions?

Yeah. So what do you make of Trump versus DeSantis? So there’s a big debate about whether or Ron DeSantis is more dangerous than Trump. I have very strong feelings on this question. What do you think?

Oh, I

wish I could remember what you said what y’all tell me soon, I’m sure. I think he’s in maniac. Descentive, well, they both are. But I think he’s a little scarier, but I don’t think descentives can win a general election. I think he’s so unpleasant and so robotic.

Remember when at the debate of the of the guy who was running against him, Chris? Yeah. Where he said, can you pledge that you won’t run for president and you’ll you’ll play out your term? It was almost like does not Compute. And he went on complete pause like this.

Mhmm. So I don’t think the guy is spontaneous. He’s gonna get a lot of money. And he’s already probably getting a lot of money. But I don’t think he’s got it.

I think he’s just too much of a maniac. But

you think he’s more dangerous than Trump in the office? Yeah.

With Trump Mona Charen to death because he just is a freaking sociopath and and a, you know, malignant narcissist. But I don’t know Ron DeSantis isn’t as well, so both of them scare the f out of me.

I am one who believes that a second term of Trump would be such a catastrophic sort of event for democracy. Because imagine what it says about us as a country that we have reelected somebody democratically who tried to overturn the across us the last time. It’s horrible what it says about us. He would try to undo the the sort of western world or the moon. And I think that in the mid of this conflict in Europe that’s about as dangerous as you can get.

Mhmm. He’s made a very clear retribution. This is number one thing. You know, the first time he kind of — Right. — how to use

the first. Yeah. You convinced me.

Okay. Great. That’s all I wanted. Yeah. That’s all I wanted.

Yeah. We we’ve won you over. Okay. One. I wanna move off old Donald.

Do you have any other do you have any any other Donald Trump, one liners, or Ron DeSantis? Anything you wanna get off your before we start talking about drag queens.

Yeah. You know how you’re always looking I always looking for hope with DeSantis, you know, he was a jag. I think that the Navy is debt. So he was a lawyer for the Navy. And he was quoted as saying, you know, he’s a he’s a typical Republican from your your era.

Back before it was destroyed, that he he thinks we have to shore up Ukraine and NATO. So hopefully, that guy will come back. And hopefully the people who are giving him all of this money, those people that were they all gathered a few weekends ago and did not invite Trump. Hopefully, there is a consensus within them Ron DeSantis that he’s not going to be the maniac

Jamie, that’s just hoping for the Paul Ryan, the sand just to come back that he’s buried deep inside there somewhere.

Yep. You know, all

he wants to do is hurt people in Medicaid. He does and actually want to, like Right. That’s something we can deal with, you know, just normal problem. Mhmm.

Tim, I know you wanna move to it, but I just have to ask Jane, because you actually gave, like, an answer before that was Like, you knew that legal what would happen legally with Trump? Why do you know so much about politics? You know, you’ve you’ve thrown out a bunch of things that I would say, much higher level? Is it from all the bulwark content you consume? Or, like, why are your takes?

Why do you know so much about politics? Are you interested in politics? Yeah.

I am. Oh, gosh. Yes. Especially, you know, when Obama was president, I relaxed. I wasn’t in on the specifics of what he was doing, but he’s a good guy.

And I did not like w, although I would take him right now over either of those other two Republicans who are probably running. Yeah. I I I listen to the Bulwark a lot. I listen to you guys. I listen to Charlie Sykes every day.

You

did say it on your Will Saletan interview. That you are off Twitter. And and I assume that Twitter was also a place where you’re gaining a lot of this knowledge, but I I yeah. I do have to say I went to your feed A lot of people claimed to be off Twitter. So far, two of our first three guests on this show.

Adam Brody also claimed to be off Twitter and then JBL, one of the cohost claims to be off Twitter. And I guess I would rank you as you and JBL then Adam is the biggest liars about that because you have the most tweets I think out of the

three and

Adam replied to my DM within, like, eight minutes. Look

what I tweeted about. I tweeted about dogs. I looked

at the feed. There was some politics on there, but there was some politics. There was some Tom Nichols.

There was a lot of feel good.

It it does seem like you’re still on Twitter. To me too. What how many hours a day would you say you’re spending on Twitter?

No more than an hour. For sure. I I’m not on more

than an hour. Mm-mm. Are you gonna put a timer on that? I don’t even have the app anymore. Yeah.

You have the app. You have to go into the times.

Check the times.

If you go into the browser. Is it so is it about

your health? Yeah. Debit center.

Is it about your personal mental health? That you’re trying to cut back?

My personal mental health and this revelation I think about tribalism and how it becomes like cultism. And you if you don’t line up with it, like, if I tweeted everything I thought That’d be hot feed. Now I’d be canceled. You know, if I if I True. True.

I wanna

get to canceling on with you in a second. But before we’ve done it, I wanna talk about the I wanna talk about some gay stuff. Since, you know, we’re gay, everyone here. You know, we talked a little bit about this about this with Dan Savage, and I’m just I’m interested in your take. Have you been surprised at the latest kind of backslide.

I mean, you know, we all have lived through kind of periods where you know, the gay issue was a lot more of a hot button into, you know, kind of, there’s this period that I think I I naively went through thinking that kind of the arc of historic justice was bending towards fabulousness and like I didn’t really have to worry about this and like we had this inexorable path towards gay great stuff and feels like it’s over. And I’m I’m wondering, like, what are you feeling that? Or do you feel inoculated from that in Hollywood? Or, like, what’s your sense for for this like recent backslide.

I put the the whole anti gay thing in the anti woman put them all in up to a bucket anti woman stuff. The anti choice stuff, the racism, the rise of anti Semitism, all of that in one container. And I think it is a response to society has gone too far for some people. And when Trump came on the scene, it’s their last gas effort. To bring back all of that horrible stuff and not move forward.

And I do believe it’s just a swing of the pendulum this way. And we’re gonna swing this way into a golden era. And I don’t even know that it’s hope. I just know this. I think this is kind of the the arc.

It’s like we start going this way and then we fall back just a little bit. We retrograde and then we shoot off into the stratosphere of of beauty and love and sisterhood and brotherhood and they hood. How far away are we from that? I think it’s pretty close. I do.

I think it’s pretty I think I I would say a couple of years. I think this elect and coming up. Just like the midterms surprised us. Remember that? These last midterms, we really thought it was gonna be this red wave where we were afraid of I forget what you guys said, but I look at astrology and I

I want to

go to a terror card reader on a a political terror card reader and she was right about all this. I don’t go to her. I watch this feed. But, anyway, I do tend to agree.

Totally get her.

Yeah. You should. She’s in Australia.

Be interviewing her. It’s her same story.

She knows more about the a political situation here. And she operates out of her her little bedroom in Australia, and she’s really I kinda stumbled upon her. But she she’s she’s great. But I do think that – I think we’re – it’s like a couple of years. I think this election will surprise us the way the midterms surprised us.

I

don’t know. I worry about that. I I I think that there is particularly with regards to this, like, The drag thing is really just kind of discover for an attack on trans folks and gender ideology. And I do wear and I do see that. You know, I maybe it’s my fault for spending too much time with the gays against rumors at CPAC, but I worry about the younger generation like finding that fissure, you know, and and having that be a real threat in for for a while now.

But I don’t know. You don’t you think that that’s really just part of the broader bucket or what’s your what’s your feeling on that?

I think that’s in the bucket too, but Yeah. It’s it’s awful, and you’re among those people. I guess so what you have to remember, you know, what you have to remember mean that you went to CPAC. But not in your life. But I think what you have to remember is it really is a relatively small amount of people.

They just had a guy in the presidency. Who, you know, empowered them. It told that all these deep awful beliefs that people had about themselves and about society and how it’s done them wrong, has now been unleashed. And then the tune on stuff, and they have a mystery to solve. Tom Nickel says, don’t expect these people to go back to their, you know, to their little houses in front of their their big screen TVs and and watch a reality TV anyway.

There I

can

do

that. They’re

solving freaking mysteries. You know, they’re they’re they’re engaged in a way. You can see it with these Trump DeSantis attacks. Don’t you feel that way, Sarah Longwell, Like, the Trumpers

were bored for a little while. And now they, like, get to go after DeSantis again and, like, DeSantis is getting, you know, all the onslaught that we had to deal with. The last seven years and all Ron DeSantis fans are like, oh, no. They’re being unfair to me. They’re saying they’re saying that our guy might be a gay pedophile.

It’s like, welcome to the club.

Did you tweet it yesterday exactly when I adjust that out loud to my team? I was like, you know, if the stakes weren’t so high and if things weren’t so potentially bleak, I would just be sitting here, being like, let them fight. This is the best. These are just terrible people ripping on each other, and that’s great. Except the problem is is that it’s actually catastrophic for our country.

So But

the people are bored. This is a good insight. Right? Like the people the the core mega people this is filling a hole in them. Right?

And that they want the rush of this. Right? They’re solving the mystery of QAnon. They’re attacking these people. They’re getting, you know, they’re they’re they’re trolling.

You can you can sense it. Like, I punish myself.

Yeah. They’re alive. They have purpose. Yeah. Let’s move on.

Let’s

move off it. Well, we’re still gonna have politics adjacent stuff. Go into Hollywood stuff unless there’s you have one other thing? Did you No.

I just wanna talk about lesbian stuff. It’s the whole reason here dying to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. This is all We’re gonna do lesbians. We’re gonna do Hollywood.

We’re gonna do cancel culture. We’re putting that all in one big bowl of gumball. And and, you know, go ahead. Go first, Sarah. Take it.

Lesbian, Hollywood. Gumbo?

I’m very interested. Like, what is your coming out story? Give us your origin story. I Tim had in the notes that you don’t have a coming out story. Yeah.

I

mean, I can make one up right now. I could pull pull some facts together and make it a story. I didn’t come out professionally. You know, I didn’t have like didn’t call a news conference or anything.

Yep. I’m gay. Cover moments.

Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And also, I’m a character actor.

It’s a different deal. You know? And it’s the people like Melissa Ethelred and Katy Lang and Ellen DeGeneres. The people were kind of been big you know, big jobs and kind of buy themselves solo artists. Wait.

So you wanted a secret meeting with

them at the DNC kind of discussing the lesbian stranded? Thought that’s what that’s my Aaron Sorkan fantasy. All of you guys were all together plotting this. No.

No. Didn’t happen. Nope. But they they were the ones who kinda took took one for the team, if you will, and made it just really easy for me, you know. But just in terms of, like, my life, I was closeted until about twenty five to the world.

And I started having girlfriends around about twenty five, twenty six, and I told my parents at around thirty one. And I I was afraid of that. I thought that I would lose them and I didn’t at all. It was they were great. But I think if I told them when I was eighteen, it would have been a different story because would have been so out of context, would have been by, like, what?

But, yeah, I didn’t have to deal with that. But there

was never, like, an article and you know, when around best in show, you never got asked about it, but — Yeah. — you know, did Perez Hilton ever do anything? Nothing? There was never No.

Wait, is it really true that there wasn’t, like, a group of lesbians that you hung you didn’t you hang out with Melissa Aperich? I really this is my fantasy is that because You know in DC? I gotta tell you in DC, there is a cabal of lesbians, like political lesbians. Right. And Hilary Rosen’s one of them.

Right? She is old now that you say it, she’s not in my cabal. I’ve I’ve had, like, a bit a bit, like, dinner with her one time. Generally speaking, it’s like the maybe it’s like I actually why isn’t she more on like a ball now that you Yeah. But but there’s a there’s a lot of, like, political lesbians that know each other, hang out, have drinks.

Right. There

wasn’t, like,

that group there in LA coming up together? No. No. Not at all. Not at all.

Well, I have one friend who’s a lesbian and she’s married now, but we’ve been best friends for the longest time, Laura. But yeah, I just have a mix of people. Yeah,

you’re the most well adjusted person I’ve ever listened to. Talk about this.

Like

I said, I’m a character actor. So who cares?

No. No. No.

It doesn’t matter. Yeah. You don’t

have any trauma? Can you trauma dump on us? You have no you have no trauma from your mid twenties that you could share?

I can maybe make something up. Yeah. No. Not at all. Not professionally.

And, you know, the theater is teaming with the gays. So we

now have the opposite. Right? The changing kind of more is around this like you want this is good. Right? We want gay characters.

Right? I don’t I don’t know who knows. Maybe maybe is a little thumb on the scale for you. First for the weakest link or something. Right?

Like, we want gay we want

gay around, you know. It’s

like good. You know, as I failed to to pitch the book as a as to screen type folks. Like, the best thing you got going for you is that you’re gay. You know, we like gays we like gays stories now. Right.

But, like, the inverse said is that there are, you know, some worries about overreach. Do do you feel that way? I mean, like the I I guess it’s just hard for those of us in the outside to to grade this. Right? Because you have all these bad faith people out there being like, I can’t do homophobic jokes anymore or else I’m canceled and then they’re, like, selling out stadiums.

Right. I don’t know. You seem to be doing okay to me. So what is your sense? Do you feel like there’s creative stifling around some of these issues right now?

Yeah. You do?

I do. I do. I feel like we’re all being we have to be very, very careful right now. And again, I think it’s just a it’s an overreaction. You know, even party down.

We did party down twelve years ago, and there there’s stuff that we didn’t party down. We can’t do now. We’re Kyle, in fact, what’s one of the story points in the in the first episode. In the last episode, he, you know, he’s blonde hair and blue eyed just like I am, and and he says, our struggle and kind of ignorance things this song about how being blonde haired and blue eyed is so hard and that they line us up and put us on trains and, you know, it I guess, look, I’m looking at your faces. But we could Look, I’m all red now because I’m like, Don’t cancel me.

We did it twelve years ago, and it was hilarious. And then as my character, I go, Kyle, stop stop, and I whisper in his ear. And he says, the hollow what? The

hollow cause that he doesn’t know what it is. This is just a dumb blonde joke.

This is not a dumb blonde joke. This is a dumb blonde joke. I

don’t I wouldn’t cancel you for this, but I did just when I had COVID, I watched all first I binge watched this first two seasons of Party Down. What did you? And I was struck by how many gay jokes there were. And nobody is gay in the cast and and we’re, like, you the what’s I forget the guy’s name who’s, like, mad all the time. He’s in

Roman. Yeah. Yeah.

Roman. Roman. Roman. Everything’s gay. You know what I mean?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it felt I actually, when I was watching it, I was I went and checked the date and I was like, oh, two thousand nine, that doesn’t feel so long ago. Yeah.

But I guess it’s long enough ago that we couldn’t do it now. Yeah. Or you just don’t hear people talk like that. That was Martin star,

by the way. But that’s a characteristic of Martin and Kyle’s relationship. They’re like ten year old brothers. They would hit each. They punch each other in their you say you’re so gay.

I mean, they were like little kids, and that’s what was funny about it. And

the thing is I still think it’s funny. I was not offended. I felt like slightly anachronistic already. Mhmm. When Tim was doing the notes, he, like, didn’t even he was including all kinds of things that you’ve done.

Didn’t mention your absolute best performance though, which is obviously in the l word.

The frosted flakes commercial?

No. No. The l word commercial played Joyce Wishnia the, like,

tough lawyer. Wait. You were in the

l word?

Yeah. I came men’s suits. Oh, really? I wore brogues. I smoked a pipe.

Wow. It was the lawyer.

Did you not see the part where in the notes I said in all caps? Sarah gets a lot of licensee. Tim cannot bring up the l word before I do. I get to talk about this.

I’m just kidding. When me and Sarah met, she would she would have Bulwark parties. This was like then this was like where where the lesbians would get together and I would come over, and this was back when I was, you know, still a young troublemaker. And I would like smoke cigarettes and make fun of lesbians, not even pay attention to the show. It’s just it’s hard for me to to get me to care about, you know, the interior lives of all these women.

I needed a few penises in the show till I

Yeah. None. And there were none. And it was the best. They started out with one guy.

Yeah. So I literally

don’t even remember you being in it.

I was a guest star. Until

she put it down. I was like, I was like, do you wanna talk about this? Because it’s like a lesbian thing to talk about, or was she actually in the show?

But you guessed it with civil shepherd. Right? You guys got to make out one point — Yes. — you were just very formative for me in a lot of ways. Like, I get that your like, you didn’t come out in this

way, but Sure. Sure.

I watched you in that show, which was extremely important to me. Like, it analyzing it as a television show is not a way that I would it’s not worth it to me to do it that way because The show was kind of stupid, but it was the first thing that I had that wasn’t like fried green tomatoes or some other thing where I’m trying to, like, interpret the lesbian content or like like it just

was. You

they built a world of lesbians and they let you live in it. And it reflected your world not very imperfectly back to you in ways where you have a group of friends and, like, that’s what was happening. You know, that was I when that show began airing, I was like a senior in college. To have that was just such a gift — Yeah. — to me.

And so, you know, Tim may never have seen it, but Joyce Wishnia you as, like, the high powered lawyer. Because here’s the thing, I, like, yesterday went down the rabbit hole watching some of your old scenes on it, and you were talking about it in a context of back then there was no legal protection for gay families. Right? Like the lawyer that you were was very relevant to what we were about to experience of having to set up legal structures because we didn’t have marriage yet.

Right. There’s something that I think about your career that’s so cool. I I guess there’s a rather kind of you tell me, but quasi late developing, like, ascending So I was trying to figure out what it was the origin for that. It was this the Christopher Guest, I guess, did these commercials. Right?

Or before he did, you know, all these various monumentaries, like best in show. And

He had done waiting for government when I met him. Oh, he’s done. That that had been done, and that would have been about ninety seven, and then eye and he directs commercials. He I don’t think he does it anymore, but he almost any commercial you saw on television where you had an actual genuine laugh e direct. Okay.

We

have one of them, I think. Sebastian, do we have it? Hi. I’m Steve. This is Kathy.

Oh, and we just love Kellogg’s Frost and flanks.

We come here every day, you know, just hoping he’ll make an appearance of some sort of excuse me. Could you send out Tony when you see him? Tony who? Oh, come on. Frost and flakes are about so much more than just great taste.

I mean, there’s that. And then there’s Tony, you know, then there’s the frosting. And then there’s Tony.

Right.

Take a picture. He he looks different? I

think I

think that’s a woman.

You’re right? Yeah.

There. But what? We don’t get shit like that these days. Okay? You say we can’t do the, you know, it’s not the Woke’s fault.

It’s our creative failures. Now that is some good stuff. She’s just you, the dead pan, Christopher Guest, was like, yes, I need that woman. I need her.

It’s more of the behaving and not pushing for the joke. Like, I didn’t have much to say in that at all. But, you know, in in my meeting with him, we did more improvisation, and he doesn’t care about jokes. He cares about human behavior and the contradictions within that that make people funny. Like, waiting for government, these this small town group of actors who on some level think that they might go to Broadway with this little show, with this little review of theirs.

It’s that kind of the ambition and the best in show, the ambition of these, you know, these dog people, it’s like a microcosm of the bigger world, and it’s got its own hierarchy and it’s got a lot of backbiting and people creating alliances and all about an obsession with your dog. So he loves that. So it’s not so much about jokes as it is about people behaving in either, like, purely innocent ways or itself a grandizing way is something that’s honest and pure. About human behavior. That’s what what he likes and that’s what I like too.

That’s one of my favorite things in the world and that’s one of my favorite things when I’m watching people like on the news you know, trying to pull something off on who they think they are. And and it’s kind of endearing and and sometimes it’s like, like, with Trump, he just like, oh my god. What’s going on in his brain to think that that’s working and it obviously does work with some people? You

just got in Sarah’s head right there. She noticed Sarah took a step back. She’s like, oh, man, I wonder what people are trying to look like. We we don’t none of us. We’re all we don’t know what we’re doing.

We’re just out there on TV just gassing, you know. I got no clue. You

and, yes, well, you should. I wouldn’t be thinking about that. I think you kind of you meet on a a a particular level and, you know, the stuff that makes him laugh, turns out, makes me laugh too. And I think that like he said, he can tell within, like, three seconds if someone can do this. Because it’s, like, kind of a wavelength thing.

And he doesn’t give anything, like, in a conversation. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen him. Like, interview he doesn’t even interview because this is how he interviews. He doesn’t give anything. But so you end up overgiving.

And so when you over when you overgive, you end up revealing so much about yourself. So it it’s always really fun to see somebody try to, like, small talk with him and and they end up just everybody walks away kind of a chock like, What just happened? What does that

mean? Because he doesn’t give anything. Can we talk about Glee for just a second? Because that was also formative

— Sure. —

for me. Tim is like bad about the musical stuff. He’s just not as into

it. I’m gonna take your gay card.

Please take it. I love Glee though, but I’m gonna tell you why in a second before you get to the Glee substance of it. It had to be like this moment for you, like, was that weird, you know, for you to, like, immediately be so recognizable. And obviously, you’ve been in the business for you in shows your investment show. There’s these cult following.

Right? So it’s not as if you didn’t have any sort of — Right. — familiarity with it, but, like, the scale had to be, you know, you’re a meme now. I don’t know. Have you spent

have you spent any time

with all the various means? I mean, like, did you know that immediately? Did feel that it was gonna happen

— Yeah. — like, when

you embodied the character, like, when the first show first came on, like, what was that all that experience like? When

we were shooting the pilot, we did don’t stop believing, and it was the kids did it themselves. No one directed them, I mean, within the context of the show. And they wore, like, red t shirts, And that that was their costumes. And they’re saying, don’t stop believing. And as Sue Sylvester, I’m up in a box above them, and they’re rehearsing on the theater, and I’m watching this.

And you can see in my eyes it’s like, it’s on. I’m gonna destroy that glee club. But I was so moved by how pure it was and how relationships were were being formed while they were performing this song. That was so so much about yearning and and the Glee club was probably going to be destroyed and they were, like, doing their best hold on to it and, you know, performing their hearts out. And I thought, oh my god, this is gonna be a hit.

This is Got it. And it was. It was a big hit. But in in terms of for me, like, the same thing, you know, I was fifty years old. So to say it was just another job would be an understatement, but it was fun.

We definitely were, you know, occupying a rarefied air

Did people like to ask you to yell at them at the grocery store though? I mean, you know, like,

every once in a while. Every once in a while, someone would want me to yell at them and and then I couldn’t do that. Because the Ian wasn’t with me giving me the lines.

Those lines. Yeah. I know. And they went on and on. Didn’t they?

And I get you a diaper for that butt and, like, there are things that you said on that show that I still say to people and get the reference for that because they’re so good. Yeah. They are.

Hey, really are. I have

one heavy question about the character and kind of heavy, I guess. But like comedy, I assume, if you’re anything like me, like being funny is a crutch. Mhmm. Right? It’s like an avoidance tool at times.

So I think it’s pretty common observation. So in a show like Glee, I think the thing that made it, so powerful as I that it wasn’t. Like, it’s cloying. Right? Ernest.

It’s so earnest. Right. Glee is. You know, and that is the that is what’s — Mhmm. — lovable about it.

Right? And so, like, how did you think about that, like, contrast? Right? I was I was wondering, being an actor, going in with your character, Sue, of being like, okay. I’m a little bit of comedic relief here — Mhmm.

— in this very earnest thing, but I don’t wanna undermine. Right? I don’t wanna under I did these deep messages and and like this emotional connection. In? Did you think about that at all?

Well,

not heavily. I mean, it was kind of clear to me that my character was there to keep the show from becoming chlorine and becoming too sacrony. She would say what perhaps the audience is thinking, you know, like how sentimental they were and it’s not a horrible to, you know, loving musical theater doesn’t make you gay. It just makes you awful. You know, that kind of a thing that was, like, so mean.

And so Concur. Yes. So I wasn’t playing Hannibal Lecter. Okay. So I was playing someone who was kind of narrating her own superhero movie as she moved through the halls.

And sometimes they did give me a voice over to look at her move like a gazelle. Sometimes that would have like a, you know, a national geographic inner monologue going. So I think that’s what kept it from being you know, to mean is that she said the most outrageous things. A teacher once said to me, oh my god, you say the things that I wish I could say to kids that I would be fired for.

The fact is you’ve had a sense glee, like, you have gone on to do, like, oh, every time you pop up, it’s still, like, amazing. Like, and it’s always the most fun part of any show, like any murders in the building, which is like a super fun show. When you popped up, it was like the greatest thing just to have you there. And it was like, it’s always like what an absurd. It’s an absurd premise.

And it was also as another character, we’re like, you’re pretty vicious. Which I don’t know why that’s when you’re at your best because one of the things I noticed about you is I was going through some things is how kind you are about everybody you work with. Like, I was looking up Jennifer Coolidge because I remembered you guys were the lesbian couple. And I was like, she’s having this awesome thing right now, and you’re all over the place saying great things about her and being so excited for her. I also noted that she was your fictional roommate on party down even though you guys didn’t have scenes together.

She’s like comes in the show, like, when you’re naive because you’re getting famous, ugly. You know? So — Yeah. — you’re just a nice person. It seems like, are you a nice person?

Is that true?

I I am a nice person, and and then it takes one to no one.

Do you do you have any okay. We need to get to our applications with the generative thing you brought up. So do you are you like, would you watch the LightLowness? Like, do you have the Jennifer Coolidge memories for

us? Oh, I

do. Yeah. Give us a favorite one.

Sure. So, you know, we we were doing best in show. And for us, it was the first time doing a Christopher Guest movie, and we were both, you know, really nervous. And if we did it in Vancouver and we were staying at this hotel. We were all at the same hotel, but there were we didn’t work every day.

So we we became pretty good friends, and we would walk through Stanley Park every day. And for some reason, I don’t this only happens to Jennifer Coolidge. On her television, she got the porno channel for free. And so she she said, I just have it on all the time. And so as we’re walking, she’s talking about the different scenarios of these sexual sees, these porno scenes.

And even we walk by a bench, she goes, so she’s got one leg on the bench. And she’s got She’s like narrating and we’re just falling apart. It was just so so much fun. And also if you’re gonna hang out with Jennifer Coolidge, you also kinda have to be her caretaker. She she’ll leave her wallet.

She didn’t bring a coat. She

didn’t bring a coat to me. I identify stronger this.

Whereas you are not really sue still vest her, Jennifer Coolidge is kind of Jennifer Coolidge. Just give her a turn.

She is kind of yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that she’s always is a brow for I remember. She’s and she’s really smart. She’s but

she’s

She does that in electrical. So and she’s putting these concepts together and coming up with the conclusion. It mostly had to do with why people do what they do. She was very interested in in psych people’s psychology. And she’d literally just go, like, that trying to figure out what that was.

I love her. I she was one of the most fun companions of a person could ask for. Alright.

We’re moving into rapid fire. We’ve kept you too long. I’m so grateful. This has been so wonderful. I told when I first told Sarah Longwell you were a bulwark watcher.

Let’s look at Sarah Beam right now. I mean, Sarah couldn’t have been happy. It was hard for me. I wanted to keep this from her, to be honest. To just like a little bit of, you know, not punishment is the wrong word, maybe leverage.

But I also I’m grateful and and adore you. But this been so so happy we’d be able to do it. As is our watch, we’re gonna ask you some awkward rapid fire questions. Are you ready? I am.

Go. You you said Sue channeled your own internal seething rage at times. You channeled your own internal seething rage at Sue. Who are you enraged at right now? And give us give us like thirty seconds of hate?

Just like if somebody that you’re enraged at inside

Kevin McCarthy. Kevin McCarthy. Great choice. Yep. Mike Pence.

Oh, the cowardice. Jim Jordan, margery Taylor Green too. I’ll keep going on. Beaubert, grandma Beaubert, at thirty six years old. Nothing wrong.

Haven’t been. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s just guns. Having the bait

having the I’m a nadalester, but having babies here with your own Nadales Right. That counters my nadolism. The guns and the babies. Okay. That’s pretty good.

Number two, I want you to rank the top four never Trump pundits in order from one to four. Rank us.

Okay. Tim and Sarah Longwell one Sarah’s number one. JBL.

Who’s number four? This is why I made the

test four. You made the test

four. Failure. Okay. Yeah. You made a fourth.

Rick Wilson.

Tom Dickles left off the list. Noted.

No. Dickles left off bank. No. Well,

I don’t think of him as he’s not like a political guy. He’s used to work at the Naval College. Right?

Yeah. That’s true. Yeah. Because we’re not gonna count him. You

were not gonna count him. He’s gonna he’s gonna be number one in a category of his own.

Oh, wow. Okay. He would be number one above us. A man that knocks Rick Wilson off

too. I agree with him so hard. He’ll, like, say something and I’ll go, have you

flown? I land to have, like, clams with them or anything. I mean

Every once in a while, we DM. Yeah. This is DM. More

with me.

What? I mean, I thought I was of when Adam Brody’s on, I’m talking about Seth Cohen getting all for Clint over here, but you and you and Tom Nichols makes me

think maybe gender is a sexuality is a spectrum. I don’t know. We got a little something going on and now apparently it’s fine with his wife’s.

Is it the, like, curmudge in thing

that’s going

on? Like, the kids get off my lawn and — Exactly.

He’s exactly my age too. But, yeah, I that’s what I said when we were going back and forth in the beginning, I said, curve mudgeon. That’s what you are. Her budget. I love it.

I want your favorite and least favorite Glee song and dance routine. Something that you think back on that you were involved in, something that really you were like

And I was involved in.

Yeah. I nailed

this one.

And one that was like,

Oh, there was one oh, god. Seeing it loud, seeing to the something. We’re all wearing plaid, and I wear a plaid None of us knew the words, and the camera would be

honest. Weighing it to the red. Yeah. That’s it. See.

You get to the red. Yeah. Yeah. And none of us knew the words,

so we were all gonna And so when the camera came on you, we would go bad. I

don’t know. We can

hear my mouth open. Oh, that was that was the worst. Do you have a favorite? Favorite of the madonna vogue. Oh,

yeah. You’re so good. And now thank you. I worked so

hard in that, Sarah. I

can’t

tell you how hard I had to work on that because I’m not a dancer, and I did do these I it looks like I was doing a hold down, but they they kind of refined it for me, but it was great. It was so we did that.

We play it for TELUS to learn theogue through your version. Oh, what day again? You know, manageable.

That’s good. I have, like, a million of these, but, like, the episode that you did with Carol Burnett. But where is she please your mom? Can you marry yourself? It

married myself. For the

fact that it was you and Carol Burnett, like, on the screen, but, like, that was a dumb premise. That was like that it was. But it was kinda funny how I gave

vows to myself and I actually moved back and forth. And didn’t you guys sing

why

why Did I ever leave Ohio together? Leave Ohio — I’m so good at it.

— and

it’s so perfect for the next.

Sarah, do you have any favorites you wanna share before we get through the rapid fire with with Jane just to show the other any other memories you’d like to share with the group?

I’m sorry, but I do. Which is just and this is Yeah. So another person you’ve been very charitable about is Leah Michelle. I have no idea, like, what the deal is, but I will tell you that Leah Michelle that first season, when she sings don’t reign on my parade and she comes out for the finale, and I understand that you thought that the young woman who was before Leah Michelle in in funny girl was very good. But I used to play that for myself to, like, make myself happy.

Like, to my happy place was when she would she opens the curtain and she said, I don’t think I’m sorry. I think Leah Michelle’s version, don’t ran on my parade that she does in Glee is better than anyone else. Barbara? Better than Barbara. I went and rewatch Barbara just to be sure that I thought it, but I do.

Yeah. She’s a powerhouse. She’s really got it going on. That’s a lot she didn’t. Yeah.

A lot of talent. I’m

staying frosted flakes Jane in her response so that she’s like, interesting take.

Can you Interesting take? I’m not

and undermined Leah was really

good. I mean, not her bra level. I I didn’t I

didn’t I don’t didn’t see that one, but I saw her do it at an event. But yeah. I and, you know, I love the movie, but I know, Italy is a real powerhouse.

Your worst one was it was that the song was singed by my chemical romance, which is an awful band.

Right. Right. It’s a bad

pick. Thank you, Sebastian. Okay. This is, I think, our final one, unless I have final one unless, sir. Do you have one more rapid fire you wanna give off before we let her go?

No.

Go ahead. Go ahead. No.

My last one is Sue Sylvester. Who is she voting for? In the twenty twenty four Republican primary. Do you think? It was universal.

I want you

to channel

her mindset here. Do you think she’s Yeah.

What’s the only channel her mindset? I don’t think she wants the world to fall apart. Mhmm.

She

well, she’s not gonna vote for Trump. She’s not gonna vote for DeSantis. She sees right through him and she could crush him with with eye contact.

Mike Pompeo?

No. No. No. No. Pompeo, man.

Well, shit. This is you know, I created her so I get to say if it’s Biden, she’ll vote whoever the Democrat is.

The redemption story of Sue Sylvester. She’s a never Trumper. Turns out Sue Sylvester is Oh,

she’s in totally and never trump her. She

is a Romney Biden voter who would if

she could be in one of Sarah’s focus groups, a classic do you think that Biden should be I know you want to let me go, but do you think

Biden should be the nominee and do you think he will? I

think he will be the nominee. I don’t think that they can and and I think it’s a I think it’s a real role of the dice, and that is not because I don’t have infinite respect for the role that Biden has played in saving our democracy, and I think that he was the only one who could have defeated Trump in that cycle. Comwell is a real liability right now with voters. And I think the stakes are really, really high. But the the time to tap out, like, we’re getting past it.

Do you

have any more rapid fire for us, Jane? I’m ready. We’re we’re in the hot seat. Well,

I go into my Sorkin esque fantasies and, you know, I see for some reason Buttigieg gets to run. I like him. I I think he’s he is the next generation and he’s a brilliant guy and I would love to see him as president of the United States. And not just because he’s gay.

He’s okay. Well, it doesn’t hurt. This is the thing. There’s all this oh, the Democrats have no bench. It’s like now they have a great bench.

But

it would be very

Right. Twenty eight. Yeah. Gretchen. And, you know, we’re not getting Wes Moore and Joshua Peyros

Josh, he care about Jerry Polis and the

governor as as probably doesn’t have the charisma, but I I have a lot of governors who are doing a really good job in big states. Yeah. Some governors are doing not as good of a job in big states. Unfortunately, that’s just I think that’s just where we’re stuck. So such as life.

Okay. One more

question. Yep. What about the GOP? Its future, immediate future, and then maybe some speculation. Okay.

I’m gonna go first because I’m gonna be dark and maybe Sarah can give us just a list of little silver of hope? No. No. No. No.

You don’t even have a sliver anymore. So that’s what I will say. I think that the pivot, every conservative party globally, is like a nationalist culture conservative party. The US and the Brits were like an outlier — Right. — like this this classically liberal free market and free people get right wing party.

Like, everywhere else in the world, it’s le Pen, it’s Modi, it’s Bolsonaro. Right? Like, it’s Trump’s. It’s Trump’s everywhere. And so I just don’t know why we’re so special and different from that.

And I think that Reagan and a lot of things happened in the cold war and certain things about American Libertarians fear at, like, helped, like, our conservative party be a little bit more small and liberal, but I just think that it’s passed. And if you go look at the younger the types of people if you’re a young person right now that’s like, I wanna be a Republican. You’re not a classically liberal, live and let live, free markets and free people person. You’re like a fuck the lips person. Right?

That’s what’s drawing you to the party. And so that’s self selecting. And the people that liked that are self selecting You know, those of us, the compassionate conservative types, are self selecting out. We interviewed Colin Allred on the show last week, and they’re like, Colin Allred’s like, I got a lot of people who had w stickers on their SUV is supporting me now. And so I just think we have this natural churn that makes the party moving more towards this kind of nationalist party semi permanently.

Yeah. Sorry.

So I agree with all of that. And listening to the voters, has been that has oriented me into where people are. I can’t engage in sarcasm and esque fantasies because I listen to voters all the time and I hear what they want. And what they want is nothing like the old GOP. And they say it.

They’ll say, I’m not going back. You know? They they talk about things in what I call BT language. JUST LIKE THEIR CANDIDATES, Nikki Haley, IS A BEFORE TRUMP CANDIDATE. THE BEFORE TIMES.

RIGHT? SHE AND SO THEY THINK SHE’S ESTABLISHMENT. THEY THINK SHE’S PERFECTLY NICE but you should not be the leader of the party. They want America first politicians, they want people who are gonna own the lip, etcetera, which is why? My my optimism, though, is that I do think we have been being sort of broadly successful in building

a

pro democracy coalition that is a majority coalition. And to your point about the midterms and the thing about their polling party is through sustained electoral defeats. It will create a new incentive structure, and I don’t know how to square that. Like, I don’t know what happens when they keep losing Like, don’t they have to do something different? And that’s my only way out.

The only way I see and the reason I do the work that I do — Right. — is trying to defeat this party because I think you have to change those incentives. You have to make sure they keep losing.

James Lynch, Vince, Vince, so nice. I’m so grateful for your support. Grateful that you blurbed my book. Greatateful that you let Sarah come and be a part of this as well and that she managed to kind of keep it together a little bit during all this. And hopefully, we can, you know, do something in next year before the election.

This has been so fun. Thanks

so much, Jay. Thank

you so much. You

bet. This has been a joy. Thanks, guys.