A Decade of Big Muscles and Bigger Egos

Welcome back to the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. My name is Sunny Bunch from Culture Editor Aathebel Bulwark. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by Nick Desemlyon, who is the author of The Last Action Heroes. It’s a great new book about The The Movie Stars of The nineteen eighties, we all grew up watching and loving in theaters. And is also the editor at Empire magazine, great great magazine over in England.

I love having the Brits on because they class up the joint with their accents. Thank you for being on the show today, Nick. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me on. I’m actually American as well. I got dual Jonathan Last. So bring in the British accent, but do have an American passport as well.

Look at that. Great. The best of both worlds. So here here we are to talk about the last action heroes, which I’ve read. And quite enjoyed.

Love it a lot. Again, there’s there’s a certain nostalgia factor here. For me and many of the other folks who are reading this but it it is super it’s super interesting and one thing I wanna key on just right at the beginning is something something that I also picked up in Quentin Tarantino’s book, cinema speculation. He writes about in his book how Rocky kind of reinvigorated the nation. There was it was after a bunch of years of kind of like dark, downbeat stuff, you have Rocky come out and it’s just kind of upbeat, and and fun, and Even if it, you know, even if Rocky doesn’t win at the end, it still, you know, gives people something to cheer for.

That’s something you key on as well. How how how did Rocky help inaugurate the shift that we see in this book from kind of downbeat, you know, decline, Sort of movies too like, hey, raw raw action, big heroes, big biceps, big guns.

Yeah. It’s it’s interesting because you look at the films that Rocky was up against at the Oscars and they’re all that kind of seventies downbeat It’s like network taxi driver carrie you know none of these are like particularly cheerful movies that will have you punch in the air like Rocky does I think it’s really interesting. Like, when I was figuring out where to start the book, Rocky, even though it’s not like a traditional action movie, as in here, it doesn’t pick up a gun. Unlike most of the movies I cover in the book, but it just felt like the start of the one man army genre in a way even though he’s a boxer. Because it just has that that eighties feeling of optimism even though it it out of the Rocky films, it’s the one that doesn’t have the conventionally happy ending.

He doesn’t like win the fight but he does win in a way. But yeah, the seventies was obviously like a really difficult turbulent time in America and a lot of bad things going on and a lot of uncertainty and and you saw that reflected in the movies obviously with a lot of heroes who were very compromised and usually end up losing. And then Rocky came along and bucked that trend and people really responded to it. So it is the kind of the market point between the two things. It feels you know, half like a seventies movie and half like an eighties movie if that’s not oversimplifying it.

Yeah. No. Totally. I mean, I think you can create a pretty clear dividing line right there. And right at right at the beginning.

Right right when Rocky hits at the start there. You have the and you and you write about this in the book, you you you see the start of the competition between Sylvester alone in Schwarzenegger. They’re they’re seated at the I believe the same table at the Emmys, was it? Or

Golden Globes? Yeah.

Golden Globes. Yeah. The Golden Globes where they’re you know, they’re they’re kind of eyeballing each other. What what was happening there?

It’s kind of an amazing story. So Stallone was up front award. He didn’t get the Oscar. He wasn’t happy about it according to the people I spoke to. And he didn’t get the Golden Globe Rocky, you know, didn’t do as well as he hoped that night.

And then he had this this got Austrian guy Arnold Schwarzenegger who had just started and he was up for a best newcomer, which he won. And stallone took ill to that. And apparently according to stallone, I haven’t been able to find anyone else to kind verify it outside of that table of people. But apparently, he picked up a flower pot and lobbed it at Schwarzenegger’s head. And the mind boggles, I wish there was video of that happening because that sounds absolutely insane.

Apparently, that that was their first ever encounter.

Yeah. I I mean, it’s funny we have days long conversations about whether or not Harry style spit on Chris Pine. And yet, here we have, you know, the the the the two great action stars of the nineteen eighties chucking pottery at each other. It’s it’s wonderful. Let’s let’s talk.

Alright. So so we have the we have the Rocky end of things. He comes in with with or Stone comes in with Rocky, and then and then shifts to Rambo, which we can talk about here in a second. But then you you do have the Schwarzenegger side of things, who is also doing some interesting stuff here. And, you know, the the first I mean, obviously, there’s the Hercules movie, There’s pumping iron, but the first real big hit, the thing that kind of puts him on the radar for lots of folks, is Conan the barbarian.

He almost got fired from that movie. Did he not?

Well, Dino De Lorentis was the producer and apparently, that that first encounter went very badly. There was no flower pots thrown anyone, but apparently Schwalsnaker came in and made fun of his desk. He need do you know allerantist was quite a little guy. And Schwartznega said something like, you know, it’s such a tiny guy like you got such a huge desk. And apparently, the meeting lasted under a minute.

So Dina looked to relent to to Lorentis did not want Schwarzenegger to play Conan. But, you know, and they did look at other people. Christopher Lambert apparently, they they had various meetings with which is interesting. The Highlander himself. But no, they they eventually, he he did end up in the movie obviously and there was something about it that worked there were a lot of movies that didn’t work for Short nigga you know Hercules in New York which was his first ever movie is absolutely abysmal I think everyone involved would tell you that But there was something about Conan and it’s so pumped up and and ludicrous and the mythology and it kind of takes itself seriously in a way and Yeah.

That was the movie that connected for him. But it took a long time for a short nigga and for stallone for the that big break free movie to come along.

It really is the perfect melding of star material and director. I mean, you know, John Milius, of course, is well known as colorful personality. He’s got a big he’s got a big, you know, sense of of of himself and and of the the stuff he’s working on here. But it really is it it it’s it is the perfect it is the idea of this nineteen eighties action star kind of boiled down to its essence. Right?

Big guy, big muscles, big sword, big body count. Like, that is that is basically the template for everything going forward. Yeah?

Big snakes as well. Yeah. Everything in that movie is just excessive. And it hadn’t got to the, you know, it obviously with with Arnold. It got to a point where everything was a bit tongue in cheek with him but it’s interesting watching Conan because it does take itself very seriously you know, John Milius, when I interviewed him for the book, he called himself a real life barbarian.

You know, he was he was taking this subject matter very, very seriously. There was nothing kind of campy or comic bookie for him about it. So, yeah, it’s and then it remains completely iconic and it’s a very strange film and they couldn’t replicate it with the second one that kinda went destroyer leaned much more into the kind of the campy can’t be direction. It doesn’t work. There’s something about the barbarian that just it believes in it’s a film that believes in what it’s doing.

And — Yeah. — it’s still pretty potent.

Yeah. It it it holds up, I think. I mean, it’s dated in the ways that any movie with special effects from the early nineteen eighties is going to be dated, but it does have that that real vibrant, you know, sense of life to it. Can we can we talk a little bit about sources? I I was just curious because I I I as a senator read the whole book and but I did not read the the sourcing at the end, which is always a mistake.

So, can we can we talk about who who you talk to for the for the book and who of the, like, main, the the main character so to speak? Who who you’re able to get on the phone or on Zoom and chat with?

Yeah. Well, I some of the material is from from over the years at Empire people have been fortunate enough to me. Actually, seven out of the eight main characters I’ve been able to spend time with an interview. Stellon is the only one I haven’t actually spoken to, but Schwarzenegger, I’ve I’ve spoken to a few times, Chuck Norris. I I got to fly to Austin and spend a very strange weekend with him a bunch of years back to Jackie Chan went out and met him in Shanghai for two days through empire and then Segal and found out I’ve spoken to on the phone.

So, yeah, I and then for the book, I spoke to a lot of, you know, directors, writers, actors, people, you know, spoken to James Cameron and John Milius, Paulverhoeven, Renee Harlin, Jometin, and all those kind of people who were there back in the heyday making these movies. Got to speak to Oliver Stone also who wrote the original script for Conan and hated the end result. So it’s quite interesting kinda hearing him, you know, having a pop at the film. He was not a fan of DNA to the renters either.

Well, it’s it’s interesting to hear some of the the folks talk about what the final product looked like compared to what they were, what they thought they were working on Oliver Snowy mentioned. Also, James Cameron, I think, did a did a draft on was that Rambo two?

Yeah. First Blood part two.

So yeah. Yeah. What happened there? What was that story? Because James Cameron in the news right now, the titanic expert, of course.

But he he is, of course, also very well known screenwriter didn’t in in his own right. So what what happened there with with Rocky two I’m sorry. Rambo two. Rambo two. Not rock.

Well he he was hired to do the script you know obviously the there’s a legendary story about him meeting Arnold for the first time for Terminator at Shaty, I believe is the restaurant and they got on immediately and they clicked and obviously had this amazing collaboration together. He had a similar lunch with Stallone, but it’s fair to say the two of them did not click and stallone. You know, it seems to be a re it’s a recurring theme in all the directors and writers I spoke to who worked with stallone where he would come into a project and he would just basically take over and wanted control of everything. And so, you know, Cameron wrote the script. It’s online.

You can read it. It’s It’s it’s pretty good actually. But stallone, yeah, came in and kind of muscled him out the way. And Cameron has talked about that not being a good a good collaboration for him, and he did not like the final film. He thought it was weighty violent, weighty many you know, just gun porn basically.

But, yeah, it’s it’s it’s an interesting thought, like, what what, you know, what would the terminator have been like if if stallone had ended up in that. But, yeah, they it was not to be. They did not get on. Yeah. The the

one of one of the kind of running undercurrents of the book. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t say you know, necessarily a theme exactly, but it is a running undercurrent of the story here. The the collision of this big screen identity persona that Hollywood is putting out there. And also the kind of co opting of that by Reagan Right? The nineteen eighties Republicans, you’ve got this, you know, Reagan is hanging out with Sylvester stallone, friendly with Arnold Schwarzenegger, and and there is this kind of sense of like Reagan’s America is is Rambo’s America.

Is is the the the America of predator and commando and and that sort of stuff. How did that how how did you when you were writing the book, how did you kind of wanna balance those ideas? Because, again, it’s not there’s there’s a version of this book that is a kind of haranguing like, can you believe how this happened? That is not this book, and I I kind of appreciate that, frankly.

Yeah. It’s a case of striking a balance because I’m you know, it it some of these films are great and they’re masterpieces and they’re worth rewatching and some of them are absolute trash and have frankly, you know, very dubious politics Ron DeSantis a case of fretting your way through that material and and hopefully I tried to do that with the book. You know, I didn’t want to write a book that was dismissing all of these films as as trash, you know, there’s a good chance that they made the world a more violent place by glorifying guns and and all the rest of it. But There’s also a lot of these films are really ingenious and well written and and and, you know, worth celebrating. So You know, definitely the politics is a really interesting thing and and I wanted each chapter to do a slightly different thing and there’s a chapter around the middle of the book which kind of deals with the the Reagan stuff which I think is fascinating like you said, you know, his friendship was still on.

It’s so strange like can’t think of another example where you had this a list Hollywood star being that chummy with the American president and Reagan calling stallone while he was making rambo free and alone is wearing his Rambo outfit, and he’s got Reagan calling him and they’re talking about foreign policy while Rambo is, like, mowing down Russians And yeah, like you said a lot of these films feel like American foreign policy or like the fantasy of what American policy should be or even like what America wanted to do but couldn’t quite do. Getting just, you know, parachuting in these these muscly guys with huge guns and and making things right. And you see that especially in the Chuck Norris movies. I think he was the he went the furthest with that. Yeah.

You know, going to Vietnam and and winning, but certainly was still on as well. I think these kind of right leaning more conservative stars were definitely looking at the headlines and thinking, right, what what can we make right on screen? And it’s kind of funny looking at like stallone in the late eighties trying to figure out where he’s gonna set the next rambo film and just look literally looking at all the war zones and thinking like where can I go? And just like kill everyone.

Yeah. You mentioned Chuck Norris, and I I wanna talk about him a little bit more too, but but in in the context of of this discussion about, you know, how how it reflects the world. There’s there’s this really interesting anecdote that I’d I’d actually never heard before. I I’m surprised I’ve never heard this about invasion USA being a huge hit in Romania that, you know, when the the, you know, when Chao Chasco was overthrown, the the the the folks there were, you know, inspired at least in part or I guess you could say, invasion USA and like you could still go there. There’s posters on the walls, that sort of thing.

I mean, that’s that’s pretty wild. That’s a that is a not something I expected necessarily.

I did not know that either. I I I interviewed I believe it was James Bruner, the writer of Invasion USA who worked with Chuck Norris a lot. There’s a lot of crossover between, you know, the writers and directors working with working with these stars. Lots of them worked with various ones of them. But yeah, he talked about how that movie which is kind of, you know, by modern standards, just xenophobic and trashy and lewd know ludicrously one dimensional.

That’s the that for anyone who hasn’t seen it that’s the charterers film where, you know, a load of foreigners come in and and basically take over an American city and it’s just utterly ridiculous. But yeah. Apparently inspired freedom fighters in Romania and they they still there’s a cult around these chuck norris. Films where they’re inspiring people to fight for democracy. So it’s, you know, it’s it’s not as simple, I don’t think of saying this film is trash and this film is worthless there’s a lot of complexity to how the effects and influence these films have had around the world.

So, yeah, I try I I try to kind of address that in the book. In the way I came at things.

Norris is an interesting guy too because he it feels like there’s there’s a real split between your Schwarzenegger, stallone, even Bruce Willis to a certain extent types, though he is obviously on the smaller side of just physically, smaller smaller side of things. But the and then the your Chuck Norris’s Jackie Chans, Steven Segal’s, John Claude Van Dams, who are like actual Marshal artists who, you know, couldn’t who, you know, Chuck Norris, biting with Bruce Lee in his movies and and holding his own like a real Bulwark Bell award award winning, fighter, when you when you were looking back at these movies and watching them for for the book What were what were the splits that you saw between these? The two types of the the two types of actors and the types of movies they made?

Like you said, that’s that’s that well, it’s interesting because you know Arnold came from the world of body building. So he was into that, you know, it’s a competitive sport and karate’s a competitive sport. So you had these these guys who came from the sports world and then they were trying to fit that their skills into a narrative movie and it’s quite funny when you watch the bunch of Chantoro’s films because they like they’re they’re quite clunky in the way that they try and fit the karate and so there’s one of his movies. Oh, the name is escape me right the second but one of his movies he plays a karate teacher I think in Chicago who the police basically bring in because they’re trying to stop a serial killer they need a karate guy, which makes absolutely no sense. Like, just, you know, just get someone with a gun.

That’s gonna be more effective, but they they they build entire plots around the fact he’s good at karate. But, yeah, that, you know, the the the divide is really the the megastars that’s still on in the shorts nigger and and like you said, Bruce Will Saletan he comes in And then there’s a second tier of people who, you know, it people now do not take as seriously to different degrees Certainly, Chuck Norris has probably taken the least seriously out of all eight. You know, he’s become a lot bit of a laughing stock. But I think, you know, he’s actually one of the nicer stuff these bunch of people like he’s it’s interesting Mona Charen. He’s this invincible killing machine, but he is actually a lovely person and everyone has good stories about him.

To this day, that’s the only interview I’ve done where the person I’m interviewing has asked to pray before we start. I’m sorry. That was my chuck norris experience. But, yeah, he’s a very genial guy who, yeah, had had was selling pairs of action jeans.

Yeah. No. I I have never I haven’t I I’ve heard bad stories about lots of people, including most of the people in this book. But Truck Dorris says, in fact, the one guy I’ve never heard somebody have cross word about. Just he’s a he he gets the he gets he he he he is respect by everybody and shows respect to everybody, as far as I can tell.

And there’s there’s actually a great anecdote in your book about when the time somebody tried to pick a fight with him At a bar, didn’t realize, who he was. Could you could you just relay that anecdote for us? I think folks would like to hear it.

Yeah that was during the shooting of Walker Texas ranger and Chuck Norris was sitting in a bar. This guy comes over and tells him to move and he gets up and moves and a bunch of, you know, the people working on the show come in and go over and the penny drops and the guy realizes he’s just told Chuck Norris to move and he goes over and apologizes to him. And, you know, asked why Chantner just didn’t beat the crap out of him. And he’s just amazed that this this guy who’s just famed for, you know, taking no shit from anyone who’s actually in real life. Just like, yep.

Sure. He’s kind of a Nedlandersish kind of guy in his in his niceness. I mean, obviously, Chuck Norris’s politics not everyone agrees with and, you know, he’s he’s said some questionable things in in recent years, but I think definitely on a personal level, he he seems like the absolute antithesis of his screen image. Whereas, you have someone like Stephen Segal who is is is just, you know, by all accounts, there’s no difference between what you see on the screen and how he acts in real life and Yep.

Well, I was gonna say so, I mean, I you know, there are a lot of people who are annoyed in your book with Sylvester stallone, as you mentioned, who kinda comes in and and takes over a project. But I would say that of of the the, you know, the sort of main characters in your book, Stephen Skull is the only one who is kind of universally loathed. By by folks, he does not seem to have many friends in this in this industry or, you know, this

book. No. Well, I I I did speak to a guy called Conrad Pommascento who is a founder. He he he has worked with Chuck Norris a lot. He coordinates chuck norris’ Sorry.

Not chatting on Stephen Siegel’s fight sequences or certainly did in the early movies, and he was pro Siegel. But otherwise, yeah, as you say, yeah, it’s very proved very difficult. And I wasn’t I wasn’t going in with an agenda of like tell me all the stories of when Steven Sigail was terrible. It’s just literally no one had anything good to say. Apparently, he worked with Pam Greer on one of his first films, you know, she was going for a cancer scare in in hospital and apparently he was one of the few people who came and visited her and she talked about that at the time.

So that’s the only real example of of anytime I can find evidence of him doing anything nice for anyone. But otherwise, yeah, he he certainly seems like quite a toxic human being by all accounts.

Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s it’s interesting just because he is he’s also the one who kind of comes across as so Like, spiritualism was part of his his whole gang. He was like, I’m the, you know, the Zen the Zen fighting Buddhist master, whatever. And it just it it’s interesting to kind of hear these folks talk about him and what he’s like in his, you know, what he’s like in in real life. Shot client van van dam on the other hand, people seem I mean, you know, I’m sure he has his own issues.

He’s got a few marriages, whatever. But but he does he comes off pretty well, I think. Folks seem to mostly Mostly at least be amused by him, if not, you know, not his the biggest fans. In the world.

Yeah. He’s a peculiar man. I mean, they all are quite peculiar to different degrees. Van dam is maybe the most peculiar out of the eight people in the book. And just constantly saying bizarre things and very entertaining to interview because you have no idea what what is gonna come out of his mouth.

And, you know, I when I interviewed him, he let slip that he’d had a mini affair with Carly Manogua making street fighter that then kind of became a big story because no one no one had known that and it claimed to only sleep two hours a night or something like that and just just constantly saying absolutely bizarre things But has that has that kind of genial nature and is very affable and and I think that kind of undercuts the machismo of these movies or the testosterone And, you know, Schwarzenegger, very wisely brought comedy into his films quite early on because when you don’t, you know, it’s the films that are completely self serious out of this genre that haven’t aged that well and you know, I was watching COBRA the other night. It has its supporters still owns COBRA, but it takes itself so seriously that it’s actually hilarious to watch because it’s just so ludicrous.

Well, I I saw you tweeted out a the amazing montage yesterday the day before that was for some reason, there are robots involved. I I was I was I was trying I couldn’t I lit I mean, I’ve seen COBRA. I was like, god, what is that What are the robots doing this? Yeah.

Well, this was this was still owns robot phase, I guess, because we had Rocky four, I guess, in I guess in the mid eighties, it was all about robots. Like, he was into robots. I I heard him talk about robots. But yeah, there’s the scene in COBRA where he he and his partner cop partner are going around and looking looking for clues in this rather strange Mona Charen. And then it just cuts to Bridget Nielsen, like sort of riving around with robots in a kind of fashion photoshoot.

Very very peculiar, but there’s no sense that it’s intended to be funny which is what makes it hilarious. Yep. But yeah, Van Dam, his movies are fun in a way Sigals aren’t. So I I think they he’s made a lot of bad films, but I I’m a huge fan of, like, hard target, sudden death. You know, these are just kind of deliberately ludicrous films as that fun to watch.

Yeah. Yeah. When you

were here’s I I have I do have one I have one complaint about this book, and I’m I’m very sorry to do this, but I have to

I have to bring it up here.

My my one complaint is that it is it’s too short. It needs to be longer. I I wanted more on each of these guys. Were you were you worried when you were writing it just like, well, I I I I wanna do, you know, fifty more pages on Jackie Chan or, like, I I wanna cover more of Bruce Willis’s career here, but he kinda like run out of time because he comes into this pretty late in the in the the story of these these guys. I mean, I I I’m just I I’m I’m I’m a little tongue in cheek here, but I would I I that that was my one feeling when I was done reading it.

I was like, I want more. I need more. Yeah. Do you have a sequel? Is there is there, you know?

Yeah. Well, I could have I could have definitely written more. You know, there are ton of movies that I wish I could had got into cobra being one. I think you could write a whole book on cobra. Hudson Hawk, you know, there were there were a whole bunch and and Bruce Willis definitely I could have gone into a bit more.

I mean, it came in at a hundred thousand words. So it’s it’s actually slightly longer than my previous book. But yeah, as you say, there’s so much to pack in with these guys. But I guess I just wanted to keep it quite brisk and breezy and not not kind of outstay its welcome. And I I kind of tried to, you know, make it feel kind of in the spirit of those eighties action movies that move at a clip and they’re not bloated and and two hours long.

Like, a lot of action movies are these days. You know? I love the John Wick films, but the last one was so long that I I was kinda checking my watch a little bit and there’s something there’s something about the movies of this period that they none of them outstay their welcome really. Like, they’re all they all kind of move and then just get out of there. Yeah.

So I hear I hear your point. They could have been they could have been a lot more you could write a five volume book series on Stephen Segal. I’d I’d read it. There’s too many stories I’m sure yet to be unearthed, but Yeah. I I wanted to kinda bring it in before people got bored.

That was

Last action heroes too. That’s all I’m saying. I’m just gonna last last action heroes I’m trying to do the James Cameron dollar sign thing. I keep sure he got an accident there. I can’t can’t do it.

This time this time, they’re the last ones. We promise.

The the the one guy we haven’t really talked very much about who again is is is a main character here is Jackie Chan. Now, Jackie Chan, again, has a slightly different sensibility from some of these other guys in that he is almost a buster Keaton like figure. He is a he is a guy who’s doing his own stunts and and it’s very frequently very funny. And, you know, kind of he sells the action himself, but he does it in a way that is that is, again, funny in in com in a way that Arnold’s one liners are comic, but he does it with his body. What what was the what was the view of Chan by these guys who were in America and were either aware or unaware of his Bulwark I mean, I’m I’m really curious how the rest of them and folks in America at the time saw him.

Because again, this is you know, we’re we’re talking about the eighties here and he I feel like he doesn’t really burst onto the scene in America until rumble in the Bronx, right? And that’s ninety Three ninety four or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. The early nineties. He was really only known in America at you know, before then by by people who really knew their stuff, Tarantino was championing him way before anyone else. And actually out out of these other seven action stars, it was still own.

Who who, you know, as I get into in the book was the one who really was into Jackie Chan stuff and got in touch with Jackie Chan and Jackie Chan was Is this the stallone? Like he invited him to America. So, you know, Jackie Chan was actually quite a late addition to the book. He wasn’t originally gonna be in it because he’s slightly different to the others. He’s not in America.

He’s not in Hollywood. He’s doing his own thing in China. But I’m I’m really glad that he came into it because I think he gives you something different and he’s obviously an action titan Ron DeSantis structure is kind of his attempts to break into Hollywood. He has two attempts that are unsuccessful and then Stallone kind of facilitates that third one, which which which does work out. And obviously, he then does the rush hour films and becomes a huge Hollywood star.

But He really took him a long time to get there, but the like you said, he’s he’s different to the others. He’s this kind of acrobat. He’s a really poly acrobat. He’s not afraid to make himself look ridiculous. There’s a lot of very broad silly comedy.

I recently the first three police police stories at the Prince Charles Cinema here in London and an amazing night. But I’d forgotten I always forget you remember the big big stunts but you forget how much slapstick and the first police story movie, there’s there’s all this extended comedy with his girlfriend and, you know, he’s getting whacked on the head and It is like watching a busta Keaton movie. And you don’t get that with any of these other guys. And then you add the fact that he was doing stuff for real and there was something completely unique about him. But, yeah, it took America a long time to to to kind of realize how great he was.

That was that was everything I wanted to ask about the book. Can we talk about empire just for a minute? Because I’m I I I am a as a as a lover of magazines, I love empire and just like the idea of big glossy pop culture magazines. In terms of your How do you When you’re when you’re sitting down to plan out a magazine, first off, how far ahead are you looking? Are you are you doing these three, four months in advance?

What’s the lead time? On a on a new issue of empire.

Well, more than more than that. Just before I I came on this call, we were having a chat about something at the end of next year. So you have to be really far ahead because obviously these these movies are, you know, things are being shot now that you’re not gonna see for one, two, maybe even three years. So you’re kind of having conversations about, you know, Avatar four before you’ve seen Avatar free. But so no, we try and, you know, obviously, every issue is kind of invented on the fly, but definitely you’re having conversations about covers, about interviews, about what what you can pull off and definitely found that the longer a hedgey plan the better, you know, we managed to get a big Indiana Jones exclusive at the end of last year, which I was as, you know, Raders is my favorite film.

So I was very happy that we got to, you know, put the cover out before the trailer had even come out. So it was literally the first at the film, but that was that was like a long time in the planning. And you need to start this conversation super early. So, yeah, it’s a mixture of of forward planning and then just tearing your hair out and things going wrong, and it’s always a mad scramble to press week. But, yeah, Yeah.

We’re we’re still hanging in there. It’s, you know, print magazines are becoming, you know, a dying breed. So we’re we’re doing our best to keep it going and it’s it’s still exciting.

It’s tough. It’s as as a as a refugee from the world of print magazines, I am I am always happy to see one thriving. And keating in this in this world. Alright. So that that that was pretty much everything I wanted to ask.

I always like to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should ask. Like, what what do you think folks should know about about your book, about the state of action movies in the nineteen eighties or today, or empire magazine, I anything you think folks know about.

That’s a fantastic question. And I I feel completely stumped by it. No. I just well, in terms of empire, I would just ask that people check it out. I think sometimes people forget there are print magazines that still going, you know, there’s so much noise these days that we’re competing with podcasts and and websites and, you know, social media and everything there is, but, you know, please do check it out.

It’s it’s available in the States. It’s available as a digital edition and we’d love people to check it out. In terms of the book. No. Not really.

I can’t I don’t know. That’s a really good question. I don’t know. What do I what what do I think people should know about it? I think people should read it.

That’s what I that’s what I think.

That’s fair. That’s always a good that’s always a good suggestion with a book. Read it

And then watch COBRA.

What and and then go watch COBRA. Is COBRA COBRA’s gotta be on Netflix or somewhere. It’s gotta be with it’s gotta be available on streaming somewhere. Well, Nick, thank you very much for being on the show. I really appreciate it again.

The name of the book is The Last Action Heroes. I just search for it on Amazon, you’ll find it, Bronson Noble, it’s Google it, whatever it’s it’s easy to get. And I I will will say that one of the reasons we’re having this call is because a friend of mine read it and was like, you gotta get you gotta get them on the show. I was like, Bob, you know, I’ve already read it. It’s it’s good.

And and I alright. Fine. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. So so thank you for being on the show.

You’ll make him very happy. Well,

thank you to to you and to your friend. I really appreciate it. And, yeah, if if anyone out there is reading it, I would love to know what films it inspires you to watch because there’s a lot. Someone made a letterbox list of all the films mentioned in the book, and it’s quite an eclectic bunch. There are some very bad films mentioned some good some good ones as well, but yeah, if anyone ends up watching, you know, Chuck Norris’s code of silence or anything more obscure that I write about, I’d love to love to hear it.

Alright, Nick, thanks for being on the show. My name, again, a Sunny Bunch from Culture Editor at the Bulwark, and I will be back next week with another we’ll see you guys then.

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