Support The Bulwark and subscribe today.
  Join Now

A.B. Stoddard: Dark Brandon Rising

February 8, 2023
Notes
Transcript

Biden’s shrewd State of the Union address played rope-a-dope with Republicans, and he relished the scrum. Plus, Trump goes classic and pulls the groomer card on DeSantis. A.B. Stoddard joins Charlie Sykes on today’s podcast.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:08

    Welcome to the Bullework Podcast. I’m Shirley Sykes. It is February eighth two thousand twenty three, and I have to begin with a correction. I I just simply assumed that that the state of the union address would be really, really boring and tepid. Well, as I wrote in my newsletter this morning, I stand corrected.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:24

    It actually was kind of entertaining in a theater of performative jerkatude sort of way. Right? I mean, I suppose if you tuned in because you had a, you know, bingo card of, like, major policy things I wanna hear about, civility unity, bipartisanship, and probably a little bit disappointing. On the other hand, If you came for the outburst, jeers, peels of mocking laughter, or as political reports, the booze taunts, groans, and sarcastic charters as well as the profanity. The Republican heckling, I I thought was was interesting.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:56

    But probably more interesting is the way that Dark Brandon kind of played rope a dope. So to sort all of this out, we are joined once again by one of our favorite cast AB started associate editor and columnist at real clear politics. AB, how are you?
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:10

    Well, you know, Charlie, it’s always great to be with you. I feel a little bit like the morning we’re together. Midterms where I’m just so stunned and surprised just like you were. Like, I thought we were just gonna be sitting here and talking about the dreaded laundry lists and and how boring and insignificant the state of the union address was and how much Uncle Joe has lost his step. But, boy, dark red and rising.
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:38

    I don’t know what proof his red bull was, but it was really amazing to see and also a very strategic and well constructed address. That speech was very, very shrewd in so many ways. The way
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:52

    it was. And there’s a couple of things that I’m I’m trying to figure out. I mean, I’m a little puzzled by because I had been solemnly assured that Marjorie Taylor Green had matured that she was now a very serious person. Right? I I don’t know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:04

    Apparently, that didn’t take. And you know your point about the speech. You know, look, Joe Biden is not a great speaker. He is not a Barack Obama. He’s he’s not a great order.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:15

    But what was interesting was that, you know, much of the speech was workman like, when it came to the heckling and the yelling and all of the groaning, he actually seemed to relish the scrum and did pretty well And to your point, it felt like he was prepared for it. I mean, here’s David From in the Atlantic. He writes, the speech was strewn with traps carefully constructed to ensnare opponents. He opened with a tribute to bipartisanship, of course, but the mechanics of his address were based on shrewed and unapologetic hyperpartisanship. And here’s the key.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:49

    He anticipated negative reactions in the chamber and used them to reinforce his message. That was him at his best. It was a guy who I don’t really know in USA TODAY wrote never seen anything like this in the state of the Union speech. They ran at them like a pack of lemmings and with a wink and a grin. He politely directed them to the cliff.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:10

    As well. I did not know that dark brandon headed in him. So should we play what is widely considered to be one of the highlights slash lowlights of the speech where Joe Biden, in effect, lays the trap. Bates Republicans on Social Security. It runs about a minute forty, but Let’s let’s follow in this for just a moment.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:32

    Instead of making a wealthy pay their fair share of some Republicans. Some Republicans want Medicare and social security sunset. I’m not saying it’s a majority. And that may give you buddy who daps it. Contact my office.
  • Speaker 3
    0:03:50

    I’ll give you a copy. I’ll give you a copy of the proposal. Rick’s speech, Congress, doesn’t vote. Glad to see it. Now I tell you I enjoy
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:01

    conversion.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:04

    You know what I mean? If Congress doesn’t keep the programs away, they are, they’d go away. Other Republicans say, I’m not saying it’s a majority of you. I don’t even think it’s even Significant I don’t see he’s never seen any individuals. I’m not politely, not naming them, but it’s being proposed by some of you.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:23

    Now,
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:24

    his name.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:26

    Folks. Folks. The idea is that we’re not gonna be we’re we’re not gonna be moved into being threatened to default on the dead if we don’t respond. Folks. So, folks, as we all apparently agree, Social Security and Medicare is off the off the books now.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:57

    Right? They’re not finished. Alright. Right? You got unlimited.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:12

    We’ve got unanimity. So a b, what did you think of that?
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:17

    I mean, look, it it was masterful because as the other writers that you read point out. It was, you know, a lot of this was planned. The traps were intentional. But he rolled with it so well. He was enjoying himself.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:29

    He said, I love conversions. And then he makes them stand for seniors. People who have to pay attention to this at the granular level know that that was in a way a cheap shot. Right? Because Rick Scott’s agenda that he released last year, much the consternation of all the rest of the senate Republicans saved or maybe Ron Johnson and Ted Cruz.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:49

    About sun setting entitlement programs and having them reauthorized every couple of years. It was divisive, you know, for Republicans, it was a stupid thing in a in a campaign season. But it’s not the House Republican plan. So in a way, you can see why that was like, they got really, really mad about that. But the way that he rolled with it, it was just unbelievable.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:11

    And and again, this speech was written, it was constructed that way, But I also appreciated the way that the language and the speech was pure joy. I mean, it it was never too grandiose. But it was very eloquent at the times that needed to be. I thought the way that he would talk about how much debt president Trump amassed in his four years, and then he’d go back to something, you know, kind of measured and and non confrontational, the rhythm of it. It it was just perfect, and it made again, it trapped Republicans into serving him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:46

    Kevin McCarthy oftentimes didn’t know you know, what to do? How to respond. Other times, he was shushing his nihilist caucus. I mean, it must have been a very tough night for Kens. I mean, I he even saw someone today who is always always busting on Biden saying that he handled the heckling very well.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:05

    It was like they ordered a hecklers. It worked so well for him.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:08

    Well well, you kinda bust on Biden. I mean, you’re you’re the leader of our Biden needs to retire and go to the old folks home caucus of the bulwark. Aren’t you?
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:16

    But surely Remember, I always preface this. I always preface this by saying. It’s not that he wouldn’t be worth voting for. No. No.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:23

    I understand. And it has nothing to do with this, I think, extremely impressive two year record, only two years. He should have bragged more last night. He has actually created more jobs in two years than the last three Republican administrations combined The reason I’m pointing this out
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:39

    is is that your praise put this in context is to hear this praise from you is is in fact quite significant. You made a an interesting point about Kevin McCarthy. I mean, Kevin McCarthy, you know, who self gilded himself into the speakership, is reduced to this sort of pathetic spectator role. Political is reporting, you know, Kevin McCarthy warned his colleagues ahead of the speech to behave themselves, but they ignored him. AND THE NEW SPEAKER HAD TO RESORT TO SHUSHING THEM REPEATEDLY FROM THE ROSTOM.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:04

    AND SO, AS JOHN HARASS RIGHTS, WITH THE Booz TONDS, GROWNS AND SURCASTIC TORTALS THE Republicans effectively turned themselves into prime time props for president Joe Biden. And now okay. There’s always the danger of forgetting the fact that we live in a split screen universe with alternative realities. So from the point of view of the Republicans who are yelling and screaming, Did they wake up generally thinking that they they screwed the pooch on this? Or are they thinking it’s exactly what we wanted?
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:33

    All of our moments went viral. It’s gonna play very well with the base, with the small dollar donors. It’s gonna get me more hits on o a n and NewsMax and Fox News. So Aren’t we in a world where you can have something like that? And both sides think that they look good and the other side look terrible?
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:52

    Do you know what I mean?
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:53

    I think you’re probably right about that Charlie in general. The actual speech in the chamber, I think, was advantaged Biden, and they know that. You make everybody stand for Terry Nichols parents except MGG. She
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:07

    didn’t
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:07

    stand up. Okay. Hittiest. You talk about, you know, the importance of Made in America, including all our manufacturing materials, record job creation, as I mentioned. Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:16

    And you go
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:17

    getting
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:17

    drug prices, the insulin stuff, the junk fees, the Provention Act. That stuff is enormously popular, and they just sit there and pretend that they weren’t really excited about it. Let
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:26

    alone It almost sounded populist.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:29

    Exactly. So I will say they will go on, Owen, you know, and talk for days about how how dare the president talk about fentanyl killing so many Americans? It’s all his fault because of the border, and that will work. And obviously, we’re getting to Sarah miss Sanders, I thought she was a star. Look.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:50

    I did.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:51

    Okay. Well, we’ll we’ll have a discussion about all that. Before we move on to this, my colleague, Amanda Carpenter, in in the bullet work today, you know, provides a little bit of historic context here because you and I both remember back in two thousand nine when you had this one Republican from South Carolina Joe Wilson yelling at Barack Obama, you lie. And everybody was shocked back then. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:10

    I mean, that was I mean, how many years ago they they were they were shocked. I mean, that became a days long story, and he was actually formally reprimand by the house. So fast forward, now you have the Republican house conference with the whole contingent of Joe Wilson’s. You know, Burisch loud mous, whose lab re reading from Amanda’s piece, Burisch loud mous, whose lack of impulse control is only matched by their desire for attention. And, you know, really, there’s no chance that any of them are going to be reprimand for the way they’d be able as nine, nine, zero.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:41

    Just just a little bit of a footnote here Charlie,
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:43

    I completely agree that you have Wilson event does for the good old days. Then it is now not that they lack impulse control. It is the goal. It is the intention. And MTG had her white balloon taken away by Kevin McCarthy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:57

    And she still was gonna get out there and go viral. So she screamed stood and pointed and was nasty. And that’s the goal.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:04

    That’s the goal, and it probably worked for her in her own way. Okay. So Sara Huggies Sanders gives the the rebuttal by the way, has anyone actually enhanced their career by giving these stated the Union rebuttal. I mean, normally, what happens is you have a rising star that’s put in that spot and they just humiliate themselves. The lighting’s bad, you know, Marco Rubio didn’t have enough water.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:27

    Somebody else I I don’t even remember this sort of drooling. I mean, I and Bobby Jingdle was terrible. Remember when Bobby Gentle was the rising star. I mean, this is where career’s political careers go to die. And they threw her in there.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:42

    I thought she defied the expectation. I thought that they were trying to kill her off because it is where political careers go to die. And as a result, I think she’s a comer now.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:51

    I think she reminded us she’s a Nippo baby.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:53

    Yeah. That’s true.
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:55

    Mean, now that now that was a cheap shot. See, I don’t think it’s a cheap shot to point out that leading Republicans have suggested sunsetting Social Security and Medicare because they actually did. This is part of the gas lighting, and now I’m gonna get all kinds of negative reaction. I’m seeing this from both sides where somebody says something that is completely outrageous. They’re called on it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:15

    People go, no. Nobody ever said that. Nobody wants to defund the police. Nobody has ever said that we should, you know, a son said so security. No.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:24

    You know what? It it’s real. It’s a screenshot, but the Nippo baby thing was definitely a cheap shot. And I stand by it. Here’s Sarah Huckabee Sanders, you know, describing normal Americans under siege by these terrible left wing culture warriors.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:41

    This plays era.
  • Speaker 4
    0:12:43

    And while you raped the consequences of their failures, the Biden administration seems more interested in woke fantasies than the hard reality Americans face every day. Yeah. Most Americans simply wanna live their lives in freedom and peace, but we are under attack in a left wing culture war we didn’t start and never wanted to fight. Uh-oh. Every day, we are told we must partake in their rituals, salute their flags, and worship their false idols.
  • Speaker 4
    0:13:12

    All while big government colludes with big tech to strip away the most American thing there is, your freedom of speech. That’s not normal.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:22

    No.
  • Speaker 4
    0:13:22

    It’s crazy and it’s wrong. That’s bullshit. Make no mistake. Republicans will not surrender this fight. We will lead with courage and do what’s right.
  • Speaker 4
    0:13:35

    Now what’s politically correct or convenient.
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:38

    Man, that that’s just bullshit wrapped in bullshit. I mean, first of all, we didn’t want this culture war fight. You love this culture fight. You wake up every day. In gorges to have another fight in in the culture world.
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:50

    Are you kidding me ninety eight percent of the messaging right now? Is culture work. Listen to Daddy, Mike Huckabee. When’s the last time Daddy talked about, I don’t know, manufacturing jobs as opposed to you know, working in woke. What I heard was just sort of one buzzword, you know, layered on another.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:09

    You know, on this whole idea, you know, you are under tacked by these evil people who want you when it was online, wants you to salute their flag, worship their false idols, and and we’re not gonna do that because we’re gonna be we’re gonna be fight for free speech except, of course, when we’re banning books or passing laws saying you can’t say this or you can’t teach this. I mean, okay, whatever. It just was a a kind What what did you see that I didn’t see, Aby?
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:36

    Okay. So she is going to gorge on all the dystopian culture war, education, bullshit that DeSantis is, and she’s releasing a new plan today. And and I agree with every single thing that you just said. What should be acknowledged is that she you know, we obviously, she goes in with very low expectations. She talked about cancer and patriotism and veterans and face and resilience.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:05

    It was a very well written speech. Very well written speech. Most of them are not. And she’s a woman, and I just think there are a lot of Republicans who watched it and said after all these lunatics, let us down in the midterm elections. There’s an impressive person ready to take on the left, and she speaks English, and she’s not Marjorie Taylor Green.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:26

    And my kids, and so I’m just saying watch out. Do you
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:29

    remember the phrase defining DVNC down? Because
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:32

    you’re you’re right.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:33

    If if that is your standard to go, okay. So Wow. She’s not George Santos. She’s not Martri Taylor Green. She’s like, alright.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:41

    That’s Well,
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:41

    that’s what we’re working with.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:42

    I mean, so anybody that shows up without their eyes is
  • Speaker 5
    0:15:45

    like his pinwheels you know, and and spewing green projectile vomit suddenly as, there’s a normal person. We’re at that point now. Unfortunately, yes. Hey, speaking of which, I’m sorry that we’ve used this phrase, so often the the post shame culture and shamelessness being a superpower. I mean, Donald Trump, I think, proved that in a certain kind of politics, shamelessness is a superpower, in which case George Sanders isn’t a class by himself.
  • Speaker 5
    0:16:15

    He’s standing there shaking the hands of the senators, and that moment where Mitt Romney comes up there
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:21

    and he goes, hey, you know, senator Romney and Romney says, you don’t even belong here. But but George Sanders, I’m not embarrassed. I’m gonna put myself right here. I’m gonna shake everybody’s hand. I’m gonna stand here.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:32

    I’m gonna greet Joe Biden because what? What is his deal? I mean, I we’re not in the realm of politics anymore, or we we didn’t need a whole panel of psychiatrists, I think.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:43

    He is a mental health catastrophe. And as long as the House Republicans would want him to be the subject of headlines every single day. That’s just fine with me. But the guy obviously needs help. It’s not that he’s shameless like Donald Trump.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:59

    He gets high on embarrassing himself. This is his fuel. He doesn’t seem to be embarrassed though. No. No.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:05

    Of course not. No. It’s not embarrassing to him. He just any attention is good attention. He’ll get it in the worse ways.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:12

    He has no problem with allegations of groping, you know, a prospective staffer. He stayed there all day across from the aisle from Fields Jackson Lee, I guess, to make sure he was in the ask his receipt so that he could see the president shake his hand, which he did. Mhmm. And Joe Biden shook his hand. The whole thing fighting with Mitt Romney, I mean, the whole thing I mean, I was actually surprised Mitt Romney said that to him, but good for Romney.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:36

    But oh, no. George Santos, this is what animates him, is kind of making an ass of himself, and he loves it. And I don’t think Kevin McCarthy has a problem with that. Oh,
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:46

    I think Kevin didn’t have a great night last night. I think Kevin is sitting up there. I mean, he was the hollowness of his speaker ship, I think, was on pretty dramatic display there. And especially now that we have to go into real negotiations where he has to engage in that cool governing. I think it’s going
  • Speaker 5
    0:18:02

    to be very awkward. Conspiracy theories. Paranormal. UFOs During the entire nineteen seventy one debacle of this red die number two, parents all around America were buying Frank and Berry, so only a few days after the cereal was released, kids all across the country. Started being rushed to hospitals.
  • Speaker 5
    0:18:25

    All of them had one symptom in common. Fairees of the third kind on YouTube or wherever you listen.
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:34

    Okay. So let’s talk about the puzzling paradox that is stumping some of the ponded accuracy, which is that you look at the economic numbers and they’re pretty good. The GDP numbers pretty good. The unemployment rate is at the lowest since nineteen sixty nine. Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:18:49

    I mean, so you have all of these numbers that have lined up suggesting the economy is is in pretty good shape. Inflation is going down. As you pointed out, Joe Biden has had a pretty effective first two years and yet, it is not breaking through to the public. You have half the Americans in the New Galapulsing, they’re worse off than they were before. The highest since two thousand nine, Biden’s approval rate is stuck in the low to mid forties, effectively unchanged.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:17

    More than sixty percent of Americans don’t think he’s accomplished anything despite all the stuff that’s happened. So how do you explain the disconnect?
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:27

    Well, I also wanted to add something that I stumbled on recently that it was just so stunning, way to win, which is the Democratic poll. They did nine battleground states after the election, and they found seventy eight percent of voters in the nine battleground states could not name one thing Biden if Democrats had done for that. Including seventy eight percent of independence. This is devastating. And I think it results, Charlie, from the fact that on the economy, which as you point out, And we could go through, I believe, somewhere, the best holiday sales ever, you know, in the middle of the supply chain crisis record monthly job growth most businesses ever created in a year in twenty twenty one.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:05

    Literally, the best indicators to the economy that you really in a lot of ways minus the inflation you could ask for. It’s just that it’s all about prices and perception. And so for Americans, when they’re paying too much for eggs and gas, they see this as a bad economy. And a navigator can which is also Democratic Wallen continues I mean, I’m sorry. The last one.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:26

    I say this, but It was true last year and a campaign year, and it’s true now when he’s getting ready to announce his reelection. Americans believe that under Joe Biden, we are losing jobs — Yeah. — not to doing them. Yeah. And that is because I believe that it’s just their perception of the economy because of inflation.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:45

    And because maybe they’re not I don’t know. Seeing enough hiring around them is that we’re in a weak economy, and it’s really problematic for Biden.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:54

    So why is that? Is is that because Joe Biden is not a good communicator? Is it a messaging problem? Is it a media problem that the media is not focused on it? Is it just the fact that, you know, people aren’t really very smart?
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:06

    I mean, what by the way, I am not endorsing any of those positions. I mean, what is the dynamic here because it is really stark when you have the kinds of job numbers that we’ve had, and yet you ask people, which way are we going? And it’s like it’s terrible. Everything’s going bad.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:21

    Well, I mean, I always go back to inflation because most of us have never seen this kind of inflation in our lifetime. And most Americans believe that these price hikes are permanent, that they will not level off and they certainly will not go down. They’re taxing them into their
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:35

    near and long term future. And it’s really freaking them out. You’ve put your finger on it. I mean, I I actually don’t think this is mysterious as some folks think it is that that if you actually go out and talk to people in the real world, you’re going to hear that. You’re going to hear about the prices.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:49

    And the fact is the inflation is something that many people have not experienced in their lifetime, and they do think that it’s changing everything. They’re afraid it’s gonna erode their retirement. They’re afraid that their wages will not keep up, which is true because real wages are not keeping up.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:05

    Yeah. So
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:05

    everybody that points to these other numbers, hey, you know, raise your hand, go talk to people in the real world and they are not able to keep up. Plus, we have just emerged from a period of real chaos and anxiety. And human nature is such that you go from chaos you know, uncertainty, trauma, don’t expect people to snap back. Exactly. I think we are programmed to say, okay.
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:30

    The world is chaotic. Just to come through this trauma, I need to anticipate more chaos and more trauma. And so there’s a lag time. In fact, it would be more so surprising if having gone through the pandemic and the crashes and all of the fears and this massive inflation that if people would would right now in February of twenty twenty three have already come around to, hey, happy days are here again. That is just not the way people are wired.
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:59

    I think you’re right. And I think that not only has
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:01

    the crisis changed our wiring, but Charlie, I don’t know if it’s me. I keep asking my peers and and they agree I think we’ve been through more change in the last seven years, not having a really long time. And — Yeah. — you know, chat, GPT, and And, you know, all these cultural changes that are happening so quickly make most of us feel that that will lead to long term economic uncertainty. That uncertainty is just across the board now.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:27

    We have to learn to accept it. And that’s really hard to assuage and to mitigate against.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:33

    This is, I believe, a profound point, which is the pace of change has been so rapid that people have a hard time keeping up with it. And you do feel that your it’s hard to keep your balance about this. And you think about and I don’t know if I’ve talked about this on the podcast, but you think about the evolution of the human brain. It has not evolved as quickly in the last two thousand years as the the pace of change or technology. I mean, we’re dealing with a pace of change that no other generation has really dealt with.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:03

    I’m not saying that things are worse now in any way. I’m just saying that things that used to take, I don’t know, five hundred years, then took a hundred years, then the pace of change was you’d have those changes in fifty years, then twenty years, then ten years. It feels now like we’re living in a world in which the world is changing every six weeks. And we have not human beings cannot be expected to just sort of snap around and go, okay, I’m I’m completely okay with that. No matter how hard you work to keep up with it, the world feels like it is a scary place that none of us really fully understand.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:39

    I mean, we really hard to get your head around all the things that are happening, so no wonder people feel insecure. So what can Joe Biden do about this? I think he’s gotta use the bully pulpit more. And, you know, that that’s problematic, isn’t it? Because he’s he’s not always great.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:54

    He he was definitely on his game last night. But of all the presidents that I can think of, I think that Biden has probably used the bully public less effectively than anyone since who would I go back to. Nixon? Jimmy Carter, maybe?
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:11

    The two of them are perfect examples. I mean, it’s hard it’s your magic bullet. Right? It’s the thing that you have. It’s to try to sway public opinion and perception, and you can use this powerful courage.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:24

    But Joe Biden is tired and he makes gas and he’s afraid to sound as old as he is. And so he does not do back and forth with reporters very often has not held, you know, a long press conference in many, many, many months. And before that, it was a really long time. And he’s not just, you know, in front of an audience of jeers with a teleprompter giving a huge national address. Every night.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:54

    I mean, he just this idea that he can just bound around Charlie in the next two years and just campaign across the country is not realistic. He he doesn’t do a lot of travel because I don’t think he physically is up to it. We just need
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:09

    another whistle stop because it’s really no different than nineteen forty eight. Right? I mean, Harry Truman did it. What do you wanna try? Send him around send him around the country.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:18

    Okay. So let’s switch gears a little
  • Speaker 3
    0:26:20

    bit. I
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:21

    know you wrote about Mike Pompeo running for president and we still have the other guy out there. Down in in Mar a Lago. Republicans seem to be doubling down on the magical thinking that it’s okay if nobody ever says anything bad about Donald Trump or that anybody ever pushes back because somehow something something something something, something, something, unicorn, something something, something, something, he will go away. So the latest story. Trump now for people who haven’t caught up on this, this is gonna sound crazy.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:49

    Okay? Because it’s only February of twenty twenty three. I mean, think how long this campaign’s gonna last? We are not gonna survive this. No.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:55

    Donald Trump is already going heavy on that DeSantis is a pedophile stuff. I kid you not. This is Rolling Stone. Well, Trump is now suggesting Ron DeSantis is a pedophile, actually not technically, but Donald Trump recently has been ramping up his attacks on Ron DeSantis. The head of the twenty twenty four Republican primary showdown.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:14

    We’re not going to lie. We figured it would take the former president at least a few more months before he started accusing the Florida governor of pedophilia. Trump has been doing that, doing just that on Tuesday though, sharing a few posts on truth social, purporting to show DeSantis, quote, grooming high school girls with alcohol as a teacher. That’s not wrong, is it Trump wrote sarcastically? He would never do such a thing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:40

    And all you have is basically a picture of him in a kitchen with some teenage girls and their smiling and whatever. That’s sort of been around, I would think it it falls a little bit short of actual pedophilia or misconduct of any kind. I mean, maybe it raises some eyebrow, but Damn, baby. This thing has escalated quickly.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:57

    He’s desperate. And obviously, he has no limits. So there’s no governor on how far Donald Trump is willing to go before he’s afraid he’s really upsetting other Republicans. Right? There’s no line for him, like, Well, I cannot keep attacking Ron Adi until I don’t know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:15

    You know, Mitch McConnell or Ronna McDaniel or Kevin McCarthy get mad at me. That threshold doesn’t exist. And I was just laughing my ass off this morning seeing Mark was in between This only helps the democrats on their radical agenda. They must be defeated, and this is counterproductive. As if Donald Trump is gonna listen to Mark Levin.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:35

    Yes. Or
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:36

    anyone. Well, speaking of of post shame, if I Okay. And I know this is absurd. Okay? So if I was Donald Trump and there were pictures of me with Epstein and there were pictures of me with miss teenage america fans and playboy bunnies with my hands on there.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:54

    You know what? I would probably be a little bit hesitant to put out these kinds of pictures. But the thing about Trump is he’s not only shameless. I mean, he’s prepared to gaslight. Yeah, sure.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:07

    So, you know, I have this long track record of doing this sort of thing, but I’m gonna turn I I have, what, a dozen women who say that I have sexually assaulted them, but I’m gonna go there on Rhonda Sanders. So does this work or did people just roll their eyes and say more of this shit? But
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:24

    that’s the prompt way. That’s what he’s rewired the Republican party to do that. You say what Sarah Sanders said, you say, we didn’t want this culture war after you started a culture war, and it’s all as you say, that you run off. It’s all you fundraise on. It’s all you, you know, talk about.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:40

    And and so for Donald Trump, this is classic Trump. He goes after people and says that they’re doing things that he, of course, did. He doesn’t care that he’s done them. And when people come out and he’ll just say it’s not true, and the other person is a groomer or a pedophile. And a sexual assault.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:56

    May
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:56

    so what Rhonda Sanders should say is, I’m not sure what Donald’s point is because, you know, when you’re a high school teacher, you can grab them by the way because they’ll let you do anything. Right? And then you’re sort of, like, shrug your shoulders and say, Republicans, you’re okay with this. Right? Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:10

    I mean, Now that was a cheap shot.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:13

    It’s interesting because I think I we find ourselves talking about how Rhonda Santos could go back and forth on this stuff, and and he just tends to always you know, as you point out, Charlie, just stay quiet. That’s why I think we’re also kind of bewildered at no one is going after Trump, including Rhonda Santos.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:33

    I mean, look, I I actually do understand the argument of people like Ryno Ross Duthat and everything that, you know, that Trump wants a fight, the others don’t need to give it to him. You know, you don’t need to get into, you know, a mud wrestling fight with a skunk or whatever. I get that, but you’re going to get it anyway. So the question is whether or not you’re going to participate, and whether or not you will actually give a rationale for why it is wrong to put him back and to power other than the fact that he is a loser. So speaking of rationales for that, you had an interesting piece trying to answer a question that I cannot figure out, what is Mike Pompeo up to these days.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:12

    What is Pompeo actually running for? Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:16

    So my Pompeo has been running for president since he and Trump left off as just months later, he forms a pack. He starts traveling to early seats. He loses all his weight. He’s out with the memoir. Check.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:28

    Check. Check. The only thing he’s doing to create his quote, lane in this race is attacking Nikki Haley. So he’s hunching down and That sounds familiar. Nikki Haley is as we all know, running for vice president.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:42

    She’s not a megastar but she’s the only woman in the race and she’s young ish enough and she’s Indian American and she’s the absolute go to VP picked for any Republican who wins the nomination, so she can stand there and never criticize Trump or DeSantis and just make her way. And with a halfway decent showing, be a serious contender for VP. Mike Pompeo, however, is trying to run a foreign policy in national security in a magnified Republican party that doesn’t give a crap about this stuff. He doesn’t batch vaccines. He doesn’t talk about groomers, and he doesn’t go after Tom Porges Santos.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:18

    So what is he doing?
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:19

    As you’re right, he’s trying to convince voters that he’s macho, mad, and mean, and he goes on about the media and how reporters are hyenas and wolves. So that’s always reliable applause line. But the thing about Nikki okay. So he he won’t criticize Trump. He doesn’t criticize Trump now.
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:34

    He doesn’t criticize Trump or DeSantis at all But Nikki Haley, in the book, he accuses Haley of conspiring with Ivanka and Jared to dump Pence from the ticket in twenty twenty, and he writes that Haley didn’t do anything for Israel besides saying nice things. Is this part of a strategy or does he just have unfinished business because there was some bureaucratic rivalry, whatever, between him and Nikki Haley. Or is is Mike Pompeo, you know, the macho, mad and mean, just made uncomfortable by the fact that here he had a pretty prominent woman who was infringing on his turf. So what’s what’s the dynamic there?
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:11

    I mean, she also has been running for years. Right? So he’s known that. I don’t think if she was running for president that he would be attacking her so gratuitously. It’s really obnoxious the way that he talks about her in the book, and it’s petty.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:23

    You know, she had to respond and say, it’s sad to choose gossip and lies to try to sell books. And again, if he was doing that to everybody and he was attacking to Santos and Trump and he was trying to be the new bulldozer, Fine. But it seems so politically obtuse to me to be going after Nikki Haley, who’s not a threat, it just makes Pompeo look bad.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:44

    Well speaking of Pompeo looking bad, I don’t know whether you’ve seen a a clip of this interview he did with a British television reporter, and I’m once again reminded how the British media is much, much more aggressive than the American media. I I’m gonna have Mehdi Hassan on this podcast in a couple of weeks, and I really wanna talk to him about that it’s a different style. They are so much better prepared, and they ask follow-up questions. And they’re very, very pointed. And Pompeo goes on to tout whatever it is he’s touting.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:11

    And the reporter hold his feet to the fire about January sixth and, you know, whether he should have spoken out more aggressively about it. And what’s really striking is how uncomfortable Pompeo is, how thin SkinD is, and except for sort of, you know, doing that, you know, playing the card, you know, pushing back on evil reporters, it looked pretty shaky. And so if your whole thing is I am big and strong and full of macho swagger. That’s not a good look. He has another one of these guys that has not actually been tested.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:44

    So, again, Mike Pompeo may be out a little bit over his skis at the moment.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:50

    Yeah. And I know him and he is thin skinned to do. And I think that, well, he doesn’t wanna know me anymore. But, you you know, in the before times, Charlie, But I I do think that he is one of those people that, hey, he’s he’s not making a lane for himself, as I said. He’s not distinguishing himself with something compelling.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:08

    To the the electorate he needs to win over. And I think that he might have a rough time in the back and forth. I mean, with Trump and he, obviously, is very much tried to not piss off Trump. The book is all fluffing Trump. The only thing he’s done is say something after the midterm is about how we’re all tired of losing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:27

    He is like, we suspect a scientist is someone who could not respond well to criticism and not be able to take upon That
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:35

    is a really good point. The other thing about Pompeo that I find interesting is that on paper, his credentials are pretty impressive. First in his class at West Point. He went to Harvard Law, was on Harvard Law Review. On his resume, member of Congress director of the CIA and secretary of state.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:54

    I mean, arguably, he is one of the most as one of the most impressive resumes of anyone ever to run for president and yet he seems intent on not running on that but are running on, I’m as big an asshole as any of these other guys and kind of dumbing himself down. Zampra? I’m, like, rolling out all these cheap shots. Was that a cheap shot?
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:13

    No. No. It’s interesting because I actually make the point that I think he’s running his resume, man. And that the voters in the Republican primary electorate hate resume map. They totally they’re
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:24

    they’re so done with that. We’re not gonna have George h w Bush again. It’s not gonna happen people. So he has as you know, you know, he served in
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:32

    the military. He’s really had this incredible career in public service. But what he’s trying to do is talk about Iran and talk about the Abraham Accord and talk about you know, Ukraine and all these things, and those are the things that no one wants to listen to. He’s not talking about library books. And I also make the point.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:50

    I don’t think with this crowd, I don’t think he or Rhonda Sanchez can ever mention their ivy league degrees. It will be trouble.
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:57

    No. And just like Elyse DeVonik has, you know, running as far away from Harvard as fast you possibly can. Okay. So we do actually have we’re in day what it what is like day eight, day nine of of the whole red balloon story. And we’re finding out now that these balloons are not just one offs.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:13

    They were part of a rather concerted intelligence gathering effort by the People’s Republic of China your thoughts on all of this. I mean, it’s interesting that Joe Biden didn’t say the word balloon last night, which kind of surprised me.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:25

    You know, he dealt with it the way I expected that they would, which is to address China and that we’re standing up to them, but not talk about the balloon. And I think that they haven’t handled this perfectly. I think it would have been much better if he came out right away. And, I mean, I don’t find myself a great McMarco Rubio often, but just coming out and saying before Republicans walked on Twitter. Look, this is what’s going on.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:49

    The Chinese has been spying on us forever. In increasingly effective ways. We’re aware of it, and we’re gonna push back on this, and we’re gonna take it down at the time and location of our choosing. And that’s it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:01

    And we’re gonna steal their stuff.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:03

    Exactly. And I just think that they should have gotten ahead of it. What I respect about the Biden, it’s like they strengthen their weakness. They don’t take the bait they’re very much like Obama, they just carry on and then and then put their head down and let everyone scream about them, and they just do their job, and and they end up being more effective than we give them credit for. I think on this, it would have been better to get out there and own it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:24

    On the other hand, the idea of, like, good night moon and, you know, good night Chinese red balloon. I mean, fiber balloon. Like, this is going to sorry, the pond blow over, Charlie. And the idea that the Republicans are going to investigate this. Like, for weeks on end, like, this is gonna end.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:40

    And Lincoln didn’t go
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:41

    to China, which is too big.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:43

    On it, you know, you can say, oh, they should’ve you know, shot it down over the illusions and they could have and, you know, signed under a phone and said that yesterday. But I don’t think they mishandled it. In a way that they will pay for. I just think it would have much
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:57

    better for the president to have not talked about it last night, but it talks about it last week. I agree with you. And And I you’re you’re right. It is going to blow over, which is too bad because I could wallow in the story. I mean, I would like to have a podcast just simply devoted to the the red balloon because that’s how Because, I mean, it it it is such it is such a perfect story.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:13

    The one benefit I think that it gives to Biden was the fact that it revealed there’s no downside as political reporter. There’s no downside to being a China hawk these days. And so taking an aggressive posture against the Chinese is not going to hurt him and it undermines one of the big critiques that you’re going to be getting from Trump and the Republicans over the next year that he is weak. And I think the corollary of that is that Joe Biden is already in up to his neck in Ukraine. And the worst thing that could possibly happen for Joe Biden is that they are excessively cautious, do not give the Ukrainians all of the tools they need and that there are tremendous setbacks there.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:53

    So if I was advising the administration, I would say, stick with this the hard line on China and just make sure that you don’t shortchange the Ukrainians in any way because that’s going to be In terms of the drama, the question is, is Biden weak or is he strong? So he can be stronger on China, and he’s got to continue to be strong in Ukraine.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:15

    I completely agree with you. I think he starts all along for a Goldilocks. Sweet spot with Ukraine. But for the long haul, this this support really likely has to increase to make our investment worth it. And to triumph or at least make sure that Putin remains mired and suffering rate losses.
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:34

    And so I agree with you there. On China, what’s really interesting is just gonna be to see where the Republicans go on this issue. Trump, as political reporter, is gonna run as a dove, and he’s gonna say that every single other person, we shouldn’t spend another dollar to Ukraine, everyone else is a warmonger. And so if it’s true that we are potentially facing a standoff with the Chinese over Taiwan, and president Biden has to deal with us next year or later this year or something. It’s gonna be really interesting to see where the Republicans go on that and how supportive they are of the Biden administration if tensions escalated.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:15

    Also, the select committee Everyone can say Mike Gallagher is a great pick to run the select committee on China. But if Kevin McCarthy and the Republicans actually really want that committee to produce legislation, it has to be bipartisan, and they have to engage the the democrats in a relationship. Of trust. So I’m also gonna be watching that to see. I would really like that committee to come together and do something that can be, you know, signed into law something just to bear fruit.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:41

    You know, I’m gonna be interested to see where the Republicans stay on their China ramps, you know, in the in the next eighteen
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:47

    months. A b started. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it very much.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:52

    Thanks, Charlie. I always enjoy being with you.
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:54

    And thank you all for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes we will be back tomorrow and we will do this all over again. The polar podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.
  • Speaker 5
    0:42:20

    Former navy seal Sean Ryan shares real stories from real people, from all walks of life on the Sean Ryan show. This one’s about my friend, call sign ninja. So
  • Speaker 1
    0:42:31

    there
  • Speaker 5
    0:42:31

    was all these things that I wanted to do in army. He was like, this is it. An army do roads and airfield and they say, well, they’ll take a test and see what you fall. I was like, yeah. But if I could do that and all this stuff too, just drive tanks, jump out of play.
  • Speaker 5
    0:42:43

    Do you guys have a sampler platter? Right. The shot Ryan Show on YouTube or wherever you listen.
Want to listen without ads? Join Bulwark+ for an exclusive ad-free version of The Bulwark Podcast! Learn more here. Already a Bulwark+ member? Access the premium version here.