A.B. Stoddard: A Completely Pointless Debate

Welcome to

the Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. It is September twenty eighth two thousand twenty three. My god. What a shit show last night?

I’m I’m sorry. Let’s cut right to this. We have a lot to talk about. We have, you know, Bob Mendendez meeting with his fellow Democrats. We’re gonna try to talk him.

Into walking off the cliff. We have a government shutdown coming. We have Donald Trump pretending to be the every man talking to a nonunion audience up in Michigan. What am I leaving out here? We have a great piece by my colleague, AB Stoddard, on abortion.

And, of course, we had the kids table debate last night. First of all, hey. Welcome, AV to the podcast or morning after hangover debate podcast?

So, Charlie, we were together the morning after the last

You gotta do it again.

But we didn’t have camera. So if this is, like, a whole new horizon

For people who don’t know, yes. This is a YouTube video. You can see the very different backdrops that, you know, a, b, sunny, and bright. I’m kind of in the cave, a little bit darker here. So we’re also, by the way, doing morning shots as a as a YouTube video.

And the theme of that is you are not crazy ones. But, I mean, watching that debate last night, where do you start? I mean, I had low expectations for this debate. But it was ridiculous. I mean, first of all, you realize, your Donald Trump’s not there.

This debate is a non event that had the advantage of also being completely pointless At a lot of the time, the single digit folks were just yelling at each other and interrupting one another. This is the way it sounded in case you you missed it. But

I cut down. He said I’ve opened it up.

You wanted a

not intend to go ahead like this. In fact, we’re about to take a commercial break. Pulling the car will have more of the second Republican debate live from the Reagan presidential live

Yeah. That that’s a hey, kids. If you don’t stop, then I’m pulling the car over. Don’t make me come back there. I mean, it was like that.

It was Wow. Now there was one memorable zinger here. I mean, I and I know that everybody else is gonna be citing it. Nikki Haley did have one good shot, but it was a bit warmed over because she borrowed it, ripped it off from One of my favorite movie scenes of all time. A.

B. Are you a Adam Sandler fan? Do you know Billy Madison?

I did not know that she ripped it off from Adam.

Okay. So I knew this immediately because in a previous life in the before times, when we had to have callers to the show who were particularly awful, I would always play the Billy Madison clip. I I didn’t have to respond. So it was sort of like, this was my canned response to the dumbest things that people would say on my show. So I go way back with Billy Madison.

Now so here’s Nikki Haley with the original.

This is infuriating because TikTok is one of the most dangerous social media apps that we could have. And what you’ve got I honestly, every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber for what you say, because I can’t believe

they hear you’re gonna

be fighting a

tick tock situation.

Mr. Madison, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought? Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.

Alright. So

Probably you played that on your show after callers?

Oh, yes. In fact, in fact, I did it long enough that people would be the chanting would go up when there’d be a certain caller, you know, people on social media would go, Billy Madison, and you gotta do a Billy Madison. There was kind of like, you know, people began to demand it.

It was I really love that.

It was very good. So do we have to do this? Do we have to pretend that there was a winner and loser? Do we have to do that kind of punditry?

No. I forbid that.

Okay. But we have a great piece in in the bulwark today by Nicholas Grossman who said this felt like a broadcast from an alternate dimension. When where the Senate had convicted Donald Trump in the January sixth impeachment barred from office, freeing Republicans up to debate about other substantive things. And because it was a Fox Business debate, of course, they didn’t ask about Donald Trump’s suggestion that Mark Millie be executed. They didn’t ask about big fraud judgment.

It was I mean, there were some shots, but they were kinda felt like kinda slap fighting shots, you know. I mean, not not really hard. So Let’s pretend just for, like, thirty seconds if this is, like, a normal, you know, discussion. Who won last night?

So I won’t revisit my response a month ago to last to the first debate, which feels like six months ago when I said what was the effing point

Yeah.

Pretending that it is a before times event that we’re to take seriously and and we’re back there. We’ve time traveled. It is fun to think, oh, you know, Nikki Haley had this great, like, breakout event. Before the first debate, Tim Scott was the the the buzz. He was the it guy, a kid, and a lineup, then she wasn’t.

All of a sudden, He disappears in the first debate. She has this great performance. You and I talked about how all the donors could get on the phone with each other that by the end of that week. Rally behind her, push out Ron DeSantis, consolidate the field, and make something of their checks that they’re writing, And instead, we get to this, again, single digit, you know, face off where everyone comes in on I hope red bull, but maybe cocaine speaking so quickly, it was really hard to understand them. And she was, I guess, ostensibly the star because Ron DeSantis’ first debate was so bad.

She was really kind of obnoxious and frantic barking at everybody. Yeah. She she had some good shots. DeSantis lives to see another day. He’ll get some new checks.

In the mail. Charlie, I don’t think it matters. I think that Mike Pence and Tim Scott were very aware that they’re unlikely to be at the third debate. There was a sort of a wistful kind of sadness to them. Particularly pence.

Just knowing this was kind of the swan song. It was pitiful.

The time for choosing has passed, I’m a little bit kinder about this. I mean, I did think that. I mean, Nikki Haley had a solid night. I mean, to the extent that people are looking for who’s going to be the second place finisher. She didn’t hurt herself.

Ron DeSantis, though, just cannot get out of the way of his cringe worthy awkwardness. I mean, I’m sorry. It’s It it’s distracting. And I know I’m dumbing this down, but it is distracting, you know, just washing that weird fake robotic smiley has. I mean, it’s just creepy.

You probably didn’t watch the show of the boys, right, the the character homelander? I’m sorry. Once you’ve seen homelander side by side, with Ron DeSantis, you can’t unsee it. That’s that’s part of the problem.

I’m gonna look that up today and and allow myself to never unsee it again for the rest of my life. He was so cringe. We’re gonna focus on Midland and not Moscow, and he has all these lines and he memorized. He made sure to always say he’s with his wife. But, Luke, It was better.

It just was better than the first one. Who? Ron DeSantis. It was better than his first to be.

You’re just lowering your expectations.

I know. I mean, he just lives to see another day, but again, that doesn’t matter.

Yeah. I mean, how many days is he gonna see? I mean, how far does he have to fall? I mean, does he have to fall in the fifth place in the in the sixth play. So by the way, thank you for reminding me of something that I’d actually forgotten about.

I’d forgotten that Mike Pence and Tim Scott were also there. I mean, I’m sorry. But apparently, they

They were there.

They said some stuff. Okay. So because we need just a little bit of there was something substantive out of this, you know, I continue I have this lonely torch that I’m carrying for Chris Christie

I’ll be too.

To, you know, we’ve had our issues. Okay? I mean, we we have some history, some f bomb histories, but He made a point this morning. He was on morning, Joan. He said, you know, if I hadn’t been on this stage, nobody would have mentioned Donald Trump.

I think he’s right about that. I mean, there there were some shots taken, but they were they were the, you know, deficit shots are not, you know, showing up, but but here is his closing remark. And and I don’t know how it plays in New Hampshire, what what I know about, how plays in New Hampshire, but here is Chris Christie, at least, being Chris Christie near the end of this debate.

Look. I I think I’ve been the only one in the state been clear about this. I vote Donald Trump off the islands right now. And the reason I voted off the island and there were any of the up. No.

Because you know what? Every person on this stage has shown the respect for Republican voters to come here to express their views, honest candidly and directly, and to take your questions, honestly. I have respect for every man and woman on this stage, it’s not if if I put your hand down for a second. Would you? Chill out.

I still got time, dude. So so chill out. Here look. This guy has not only divided our party. He’s divided families all over this country.

He’s divided friends all over this country. I’ve spoken to people everyone else has. Who have sat at Thanksgiving dinner or at a birthday party and can’t have a conversation anymore. Been there. If they disagree with Donald Trump.

He needs to be voted off the island. Yeah.

He needs to be voted off the island. So but unfortunately, And again, I’m sorry because this feels like kind of, you know, wrote punditry. I mean, the winner last night is the guy that didn’t show up. I mean, Donald Trump is paying no price for not showing up. He’s he’s undoubtedly watching this shit show and going, why should I show up?

What is the point? You know, he can show almost an infinite amount of contempt for the Republican National Committee for, you know, Fox News Fox business and for Republican primary voters. And they basically say, thank you, sir. May I have another one. So Right.

I mean, he he he wins. Nothing changes.

You’re right. I mean, they need him. Fox and Fox Business and the RNC. RNC is rigged, you know, for his nomination. He happens to be doing so well in the polling, but it was still never really a neutral setup.

I found what Chris Charlie Sykes said, and you said when you were listening to him, we’ve all been there. I mean, it was so searing because you know even Trump supporters watching. You know, have this familiar feeling about how divisive is. And of course, it was awful that we couldn’t have more Chris Christie. He, if he had more time, would have brought up general Millie.

We, you know, we would have had more exposure to the poison of Trump, but I’m so concerned Charlie Sykes a debate without Chris Christie, even though they don’t matter.

Which may be the next one.

Right. Even though Donald Trump’s never gonna show up to them and he’s still gonna be the nominee unless, you know, something something something unicorn. Meteor. It’s just gonna be hard to not have a truth teller there. It was hard to not have hutchinson there.

So it’s just so cringe to watch these things. They’re so pointless and they’re so depressing.

Speaking of, Mark Miller, let’s let’s move on because I think we’ve already spent enough time on the debate, don’t you think? I mean, the non event debate that we’re not go through the motions of pretending is actually gonna make a lot. I mean, I’m

happy to be done. Yeah.

So Mark Millley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff is interviewed by Nora O’Donnell on on sixty minutes. And she asked him about the very pointed suggestion from the former commander in chief that he be put to death for treason. Yeah. I just think that, you know, we have so normalized all of this. And, you know, I as I’ve said, you know, Donald Trump is seated in normalizing violent rhetoric.

And the problem is that if you normalize the rhetoric of violence, you can normalize violence itself. This seems like one of those extraordinary moments for Captain Bone spurs to go after one of the most decorated officers in the US military and suggest that he be put to death. Nora O’Donnell asks Millie about that, and here’s what Millie had to say.

President Trump recently said that your dealings with China were so egregious that in times gone by the punishment would have been death.

Normal. It’s

right. He said that. That’s correct.

He is suggesting that you be punished by death. The former commander in chief to his former top military advisor.

I’m a soldier. I’ve been faithful and loyal to the Constitution United States forty four and a half years. And my family and I have sacrificed greatly for this country. My mother and father before them. And, you know, as as much as these comments directed at me, it’s also directed at the institution of the military.

And that there’s this two point one million of us in uniform. And and the American people can take it to the bank that all of us, every single one of us from private to general, will loyal to that constitution. It will never turn our back on it no matter what, no matter what the threats, no matter what the humiliation, no matter what. If we’re willing to die, for that document, if we’re willing to deploy to combat, if we’re willing to, lose an arm or leg and eye, to protect and and support and defend that document and protect the American then we’re willing to live for it too. So I’m not gonna comment directly on those those things, but I can tell you that, this military, this soldier, me will never turn our back on that constitution.

For the record, was there anything inappropriate or treasonous about the calls you made

to chime in?

Absolutely not. Zero. None.

It almost seems odd to ask this question. Because the former commander in chief seems to be calling for your execution. Yeah. Are you worried about your safety?

I’ve got this in the safety precautions. I I wish those comments had not been made, but they were, and we’ll take appropriate measures to ensure my safety and the safety of my family.

So he’ll be okay, but, you know, a, b, as as one of Sharon writes in the Bulwark today, you know, this this whole climate of fear and intimidation can’t be minimized. This is this is part of the world that we live in now where these threats cause people to live in fear. Now, Mark Millie’s gonna be okay. He’s surrounded by, like, lots of guys with guns, you know, burly guys. He’s not, you know, that’s probably not a problem.

But I don’t think we should be surprised that other people are frightened by it. But I guess I’m listening to this and, you know, here’s Captain Boensburg’s a guy who evaded draft, you know, who mocked John McCain’s time as a POW who apparently has said, you know, don’t invite disabled veterans to come to these events because they’re embarrassing to see. And and I guess, fuck that guy. You know what I’m saying? I mean, fully fuck that guy.

You know? There’s so many people out there that think that Donald Trump is this super patriot who supports the military, and he has the back of the people, you know, in in blue and in green and everything. And but, I mean, seriously, fuck this guy. I’m sorry.

I watched that last night, and then I listened to it now, and I never wanna hear it again. It is so enraging to me that he has never paid a political price with his base for trashing the military and their commitment and their selflessness as they carry out a note to the constitution and put their lives on the line for it for us. And the idea that you are right, Millie will be safe. He’ll be fine. Anyone who steps out now from Cassidy Hutchinson to senator Romnie

Right.

To anybody that steps out and tells the truth Yeah. Is actually at the very best poor. Very intimidated and then at the worst at risk of their physical safety and and potentially their lives. And it’s I am just stunned of all the things that Trump supporters, his most devoted fans, can rationalize. The deep state, the ninety one Charlie Sykes, his great relationship with Vladimir Putin, trusting him more than his own DNI, whatever they suck up, chew, and swallow, that he talks this way about those who serve, that he looks that way at those who serve, and that he undermines and politicizes the military is so disgusting, and he’s never ever ever paid for it.

And that’s why I think you in the context of the the motion from Jack Smith to impose a protective order on him. I mean, the fact that the judges, in this case, all the judges, including, you know, chuck in. I mean, have to take into account the fact that this guy, has a long track record of of intimidation and of threats, and that it does take a toll look. I mean, in that remarkable piece on, Mitt Romney was in the the Atlantic. I talked about how, you know, he had to have, you know, spend five thousand dollars a week on security.

There are members of Congress who have maybe maybe rationalized me. Maybe they’re full of it, but they’re saying that they didn’t vote against Donald Trump, vote for his impeachment because they were afraid for their physical security. Now, okay. Maybe they are cowards, maybe they should get out of office. But the reality is the point you made is It goes all the way down, school board members, you know, people like Shea Moss, just workers.

And for a lot of those people, they will make the calculation. It’s just not worth it. And they will get out of politics. They will pull back which again is part of this playbook. You scare out the normies, the truth tellers, you drive them out, and what fills the vacuum.

Whether or not this is a vast conspiracy or whether it’s simply his thuggish reptilian instinct, the the effect is the same.

Right. I think that people are gonna get out of public service that we need. The kind of people with integrity and commitment that we need like you mentioned, school nurses, school librarians, school board members. But what we’re gonna see next year is people who right now are hiding behind their support for Tim Scott who won’t be able to protect them much longer because candidacy won’t last too long.

Yeah.

Or they’re hiding behind no labels who are obviously very uncomfortable of about the idea of faking their support next year for Donald Trump, but they will.

They will. They will

do it. Because if they’re not going to get out of politics, it will ruin their wife’s life or their kid’s life or or their life with with threats and the need for security to take You

are not having this talk about the alignment of the planets. So it is Thursday, September twenty eighth two thousand twenty three. We just had this pointless presidential debate. Donald Trump continues to lead in the polls. The Republicans and the House of Representatives are beginning their first impeachment hearing today despite basically admitting that they they’re a little bit shaky on the on the timelines, on the on the evidence, and all that.

And they’re beginning the impeachment proceeding a couple of days before they’re about to shut down the federal government over what. So let’s just talk about the shutdown because, I mean, it it does feel as if, you know, this is like a big deal, but we’ve kinda become numb to it like so many other things. They’re gonna shut down the government. I mean, how does this get resolved when you have a speaker who basically, is, you know, given away his manhood, you know, put it in a lockbox somewhere. I mean, he has to choose at some point, right, between keeping the government open, keeping the lights on, has to choose the country over his speakership, and Kevin McCarthy has at every single turn chosen the speakership.

Because he really must wanna have that freaking portrait up on the hall, whatever. So where are we at here?

Well, what’s so interesting, as you notice, we’re shutting down the government. We really know why or over what. And the impeachment hearing commences today, not with any new evidence, but some like pro trump lawyers or people who are gonna, I don’t know, talk about the danger of this if it were to be real.

Blah blah

blah blah blah. Yeah. And then Yeah. It’s sad that it’s normalized, but we have been anticipating the government shutdown since the debt deal was sealed in May. So, I mean, the hardliners were promised if they didn’t lead us off the cliff of default that they would lease would be able to have their fun by September thirtieth.

So this was kind of written into the script, and McCarthy’s known that. There’s nothing he can do at this hour, and that’s why he literally drew straight face styles reporters that is Joe Biden’s fault. Because he hasn’t had a meeting with him after.

Oh, he

has your buzzer.

He’s already said repeatedly and so is all all of his colleagues we really shouldn’t do this. This is really pointless. People in here, like you noted the other day. This whole new concept of burning it down. This is just a new phenomenon, and it’s cranking file.

Anyway, so it’s really a disaster. And then there’s kind of like you said, on another planet, like, before time, strange alignment, president Biden is going to Arizona today to talk about federal funding for a John McCain Museum and the threat that mega Republicans pose to democracy. Unfortunately because there’s impeachment and a government shutdown consuming the the oxygen in Washington. I don’t even know how much that will be covered. But it is stunning.

Okay. So here’s a little nutshell. And this, I’m gonna try to read off these tweets or something that happened last night in the house of representatives. So The first vote is the house votes one hundred and four to three hundred and thirty. The house defeats an amendment to the defense spending bill by Mager, representative Andy Biggs from from Arizona to, slash Ukraine security assistance, overwhelmingly, the house votes, against this.

They vote to support Ukraine. That’s kind of the the good news. Then, few hours later, the House Rules Committee dominated by Republicans votes to pull three hundred million dollars in security assistance out of Ukraine. Aaron Blake of the Washington Post says, this is Congress in a nutshell. More than three fourths of the house support something, aid to Ukraine, including a majority of the majority, but It is quickly stripped out of the bill late at night because a relatively small amount of money is a red line for a tiny handful of vocal members.

Good. The good news is overwhelming support for Ukraine, the bad news is is that you have this very tiny minority of Bernard all down folks, trumpest folks, who basically are holding the three quarters of the house hostage on this issue.

And it’s important to remember back in January they secured seats on the rules committee.

Yes.

The terrorists did as a part of their deal with Kevin McCarthy so that he could become speaker.

What could go wrong?

So if they weren’t on the rules committee, right, that wouldn’t have been able to happen. I’ve been told for weeks there was more than three hundred votes in the house for Ukraine and and there would be a majority of Republicans. But as you as you point out, as long as McCarthy continues to make sure they have books of matches in their hands. And he’s giving them to them. This whole thing is gonna be a constant bonfire.

In other news today, the Democrats in the Senate are having a caucus meeting, and apparently, New Jersey Center Department Mendez is gonna make his case. Like, what gold bars have been lying around my house? I mean, doesn’t everybody have four hundred and eighty thousand dollars in hundred dollar bills stuffed into their underwear drawer. Interesting reaction from John Federman, who is I think it’s for some time been a lot of beliefs to give. On on all of this.

Do you see what his statement is? This is, federal man unplugged. He said, unless Senator Menendez is coming today to resign, I am not interested in hearing his explanation for gold bars stashed in a mattress, where past the point of his tough talk and defiance, given the scope and scale of his alleged corruption. Now this is one of his colleagues, and they’re gonna be in the same room. So your take, how are senate crats dealing with Bob Menendez.

I mean, he’s their guy. It’s a clubby place. And yet, he’s got corruption jumping off him, like, you know, You know, like, like, flees off a gorilla. Let me see. Tell me what’s going on.

Alright?

Well, he learned from the Republican Party that these things are survivable. So he’s going full, double down, mega defiance mode. And he played the race card too, saying that he was just being run out of his job because he’s a Latino. This is just spectacular in so many ways. I’m really glad that John Federman is sort of liberated.

I wish he would wear some nice clothing, but he’s did nothing left to lose mode, and I appreciate how honest he’s being. What is so remarkable, obviously, is that Democrats are policing their own, that they do care about some standards of conduct. When they were being a little hesitant at first, I was like, Hi, guys. You know, Al Franken on line one, you better step up and start saying this is bad. Yeah.

And

then there was a permission structure and they all did it together

at all.

But, yes, true, Charlie Sykes, it’s really important for people to know that he obviously has done a lot of good as the senator. And on foreign relations. He has a really impressive record in a lot of ways, and these friendships are deep after all these decades. And it was really hard for Corey Booker. To come out and say, yes, it’s time.

And so It

shouldn’t have been because Maing Bob and end this old school crook. You know, the folks from just security just have a and and talk about the national security implications of them. I mean, this this is, like, not close to the line. They have a piece, which I would urge people to go look at. The ongoing security threats posed by Bob Menendez disclosing United States, staffing blueprint in the Egyptian Embassy.

Providing advanced information on US military aid. Ghost writing a letter requesting US military aid from the government of Egypt providing a heads up on questions that US senators intended to ask of Egyptian officials. I mean, the ongoing national threat posed by Menendez in his current role This is in a class all by itself. So I guess the question is, so what happens after today’s meeting? I mean, there have been what?

How many senators not all of them. We haven’t heard from Schumer. We haven’t heard from Joe Biden. I mean, yeah, a lot of Democrats are broken with him, but what happens after today?

You know, I don’t know because he’s playing Donald Trump. The people who have not yet said publicly he should resign are gonna say in the meeting like, dude, you’re done here. You know, we’re gonna present a united front. It’s really stupid of you to try to hang on. We love you, Bob, but that’s what the meeting is is gonna be.

And we just don’t know how defiant he remains. I mean, it’s so funny when you read the just security bullet points, really Saudis are walking around Mar a Lago, and they’re just allowed to go into some random storage room where there’s a copy machine and boxes of classified documents, like, only Democrats care about threats to National Security now. I mean, it is so terrifying. It’s not that Bob Menendez is not threatening National Security. I am terrified.

But they can’t fully force him out. Can they? I mean, they can’t I mean, the moment he resigns, he becomes a little person. Right? Nobody, we talked about this with Ben Willis yesterday.

Nobody returns his calls. He’s got no protection. You know? He’s he’s cold product. He’s he’s going to prison.

So what is his best play? Hang on to the job. What? Become a trumpist? Hope for a Donald Trump pardon?

What? What?

No. I can’t get in the mind of people who who don’t have shame. And this is a very new part of our politics where you double down, you keep flying, and you say, come at me, bro, I don’t care. You guys cannot talk to me in the lunchroom. I’m gonna keep this job and my wonderful new wife who I met at Ihop really liked you know, gold bars and fancy cars and and I beat the rep last time.

So who cares? I mean, this is what Donald Trump has done to our politics he is the perfect mentor. If you have lost all sense of shame and and you’re willing to keep lying and you’re not embarrassed, You keep coming to work every day and, you know, running down the halls with the scrums of reporters. You know, a lot of these people, they last through this scam.

I think that journalism schools need to, adapt. Maybe you need to have a course. And how do you deal with people who with or utterly without shame? Right? Because most of us are not prepared to do that.

You know? As I Okay. Have a course. What do you do when you’re dealing with a pathological liar? How do you deal with that?

How do you talk to that person? How do you How do you cope with or cover somebody who has absolutely no shame and maybe not always then put the word defiant in the headline. Maybe we had to come up with different words for this. I think that being a political observer these days used to be yet to know history, right, a little sociology, Now I think we all need degrees in psychology or something.

I agree.

Psychology and pharmacology

I agree, Charlie. I mean, when I watch Vivek, Ramaswamy, what I see Yeah. Is that he and he’s smart He has watched Trump, and he’s realized from Trump and Tucker and others that you can keep saying things that aren’t true and it’s a sign of toughness now.

Yeah.

It’s a sign of strength. Remember, facts are so thirty years ago in their mind. It’s all about your feelings.

Yeah.

And when you’re a Trump supporter watching, do they? And you find out that he was fact checked, and he was contradicted, they confront him on stage, you’re like, oh, he might be sort of fudging some of this, and he might have, like, lied and written in a book that January six was bad. But, like, I love the way he makes me feel. And he just keeps saying what I want and lying. And I think lying is now macho.

There are also the insults and some of the most extreme positions, you know, I mean, there is that, you know, back and forth about who’s more brutal? Like, you know, I I will build a wall on the on the border. Well, no. I I will put razor blades on top of the wall. I will shoot anyone who crosses the line stone cold dead.

Then what’s the next? No. No. No. No.

I will have them drawn and quartered. I mean, there is that. The other thing that Vivek has learned is, have interesting hair wild hair. I mean, does he see him last night? I mean, he’s, like, it’s it’s up there.

And he figures, okay, this is one of the things I have to put on a show like Donald Trump have to have really wild hair like Donald Trump, and I have to bullshit as fast as possible like Donald Trump. But you know what? Going back to that first debate, remember this was supposed to be the, you know, the breakout for Vivek His he did not capitalize on it. It did not happen for him because he was not really ready for that food. He steps out of the bubble, And he was exposed over and over again.

This guy is a fabulous. He’s a fake. He’s a phony. And so you look back at all of the first debate buzz about Vivek, and the only one who came out better other than Donald Trump was was Nikki Haley. See, we’re back to the debate.

So

But Vivay could oppose Trump world is a good replacement for Trump. I mean, I I don’t think he goes away if trump eats the poison cheeseburger. So I think that, again, he knows what the base wants, and they don’t want consistency, and they They liked that he stood up and said, I would not give birthright citizenship to myself. Ma’am. They’re in Fuego when they listened to.

They love this shit. And so I I think that there he has more shelf life later on and he was never running for president. He wants a cabinet position and he started Secret Podcast. So the guy is really smart and it’s like talker. It’s like you can be inconsistent as long as you say it with your nostrils flaring and like really fast and really fired up.

Like, people just love that shit. It’s about feelings now.

Okay. So there’s a video that’s circulating of of Donald Trump, in Michigan and he’s mocking these candidates. They’re all running for a job. They wanna position in the cabinet, but they wanna be vice president. And then he has, like, a throwaway where he says, You see anybody up there that would be VP quality?

I don’t. So some people are interpreting that as basically saying, yeah, nobody on that stage is gonna be vice president, which I think is worth mentioning. Because I think there was a time when you thought that maybe, you know, this was going to be kind of an audition. Maybe Tim Scott still thinks that. But I think people are forgetting.

That Donald Trump still has the a little bit of Mike Pence freak out. Let me explain that. In twenty sixteen, one of the more conventional things he did was pick Mike Pence, the governor of in Indiana, you know, heartthrob of the evangelicals to put on his ticket. If it’s kind of a conventional political decision to balance himself out, But what he realized in the last four years is the vice president is the one position in his administration he cannot fire. He can’t get rid of his vice president.

And the moment he is elected if if he’s elected in twenty twenty four, the moment he’s elected, he becomes a lame duck president. Now, I don’t think he thinks of it that way, and I don’t think he would intend to be a lame duck president. That’s a different story, which means that the vice president He has to be looking over his shoulder saying, do I want somebody really strong? Do I want somebody who’s gonna be an independent power source? Am I gonna want somebody who immediately is going to be the are apparent because you know how that goes.

The once people decide that you are the lame duck, and this is the coming power, So we haven’t gotten into the whole Trump VP thing, but I think that, first of all, that anybody that ever ran against him, probably not, but also Anyone who has their own independent appeal or constituency or is a particularly strong person would be a threat. And I don’t think that Donald Trump’s gonna go that way.

This is a good point. And I realized it last night, and I was so happy because My biggest fear was he was gonna pick Nikki Haley or Tim Scott, and I believe if he did, he would really win quite easily.

Really?

And so I’m so happy that he’s not going to because he does not wanna be upstaged by her Yeah. Which is very clear. And I think Christy Noam has really kept a low profile, and she has not tried to be on every Sunday show. And she’s not you know, the girl online. And now she’s scandalized by her affair with Corey Lewandowski.

She’s kinda perfect. Right? She’s like, got the hair extensions and she’s like super buff and she actually has

I don’t know. Do you think you think that that stripping Corey makes her perfect?

It makes her more subdued and she’s less of a threat that she’ll try to stand out and have her own power center as you describe. I think he’s gonna try to pick someone who’s not a total joke and has some executive experience, but he can’t pick Kim Reynolds now. I don’t know. It’s interesting, but I am so really that he’s talked himself out of Nikki Haley and Tim Scott because I think it would be a huge electoral benefit.

You know who he wants to pick, don’t you? And, again, we’re we’re we’re going into this weird world of Donald Trump’s mind. I think, you know, maybe he’s gonna end up with a least Defonic, although, I think he’s gonna look at her and go, can I really trust her? Think he would like somebody like a Kerry Lake, but, you know, she’s got her own thing. You know what we really like, though?

Mars your Taylor Green?

No. No. In his mind, He wants Don junior or Ivanka. He wants the dynasty. Yeah.

He knows that it’s Trump for airfix. And if it’s a member of his family, it will be trump forever. That’s what he wants. Now whether he’s actually gonna do that, I don’t know.

You’re so right. You’re so right.

So somebody’s gonna have to either talk him out of it or he’s gonna say, look, you know, whoever I pick immediately becomes the front runner in twenty twenty eight, I do not wanna go off into the sunset. I need somebody who’s gonna have my back. And by the way, I mean, in this context, Kennedy’s Bulwark, Clintons. You have this around the world. I mean, the the Marcos’s and and the Philippines.

It is not unknown. To have these kind of family dynasties. And so Donald Trump obviously is gonna go through that thought process.

This is genius, Charlie Sykes. Because it’s true that at if you think about all he’s been through, and what everyone has worked for him has said.

Yeah.

About him. Think about everyone around him. In the final days, they’ve all trashed him, except for Jeff Clark

Mhmm.

And Peter Navarro. So I don’t even remember if Navarro still working for the White House at that point. Whatever he was insignificant. He was like a fake adviser. So but he was like a an instrumental coup person.

I mean, they’ve all said awful things. And so really, you make a great point. Any vice president has the potential to go rogue.

Right.

No one is to be trusted. Okay. I mean,

I think one of the worst VP choices of all time in retrospect was Sarah Longwell. By, you know, the late lamented John McCain, who I’m sure that came to regret that at a certain point. But do you remember how that was, the game change and everything where where suddenly All the focus was on, oh, this she’s the hot new thing, and there was all this attention. Donald Trump could not stand to have the spotlight shifted. John McCain was was okay with that.

He was okay. You know, let them look at, Sarah Palon. It was terrible and terrible. I cannot imagine him having the ego. Okay.

I wanna talk about your piece. Your piece today because it is extremely interesting, and I have been associated with the pro life movement for many, many years. And it is really interesting watching their response now, the organized pro life movement responds to Donald Trump who’s decided that they are a liability. I mean, he rode them to the president He can claim that he was the one who got Roe overturned, but he is now aggressively throwing them under the bus, saying that it’s just terrible that they push for these six week bands. So tell me about their reaction and and why with his attack, why they’re just rolling over?

I think there was a time back in the winter after his initial comments about how all the midterm, disappointment was a result of abortion.

Of

course, not the crazy candidates that he endorsed. Yeah. And who ran for significant positions like governors of swing state and, you know, but he

wasn’t totally wrong about this. Right?

But he was totally wrong. But Yeah. But they did not like that, and they felt insulted because it’s it was very direct. Mhmm. So they think Rhonda Sanchez is on the rise Tim Alberto writes this amazing piece in March in the Atlantic about how he had really fallen on a favor with evangelicals over this issue.

He

was on this podcast talking about that.

And literally by May, they’re buckling by May because they saw what you and I saw in April, which was Donald Trump was inevitable. That was before Rhonda Sanchez was even a candidate. So you can tell in their comments they’re trying to say, we’re talking about the band with him. They want a ban federal legislation. A national ban.

He is basically for all intents’ purpose to say no. And he’s constantly basically saying, I’m the most pro life president ever without me, you guys would be nowhere. We got rid of Roe, Yeah. To try to say to the voters, you’ve got what you asked for and you’ve got enough.

Right.

And I know about winning elections. And you’re just gonna have to take this from me. And the leaders have basically said, and I quote some of them in the piece. Yeah. Like, we’re gonna not deal with right now because they know next spring when he’s the presumptive nominee that they will be supporting him.

And so there’s really There’s no purchasing like trashing him now and picking a fight.

And he may come around. He may come around to us we’ve been at some point. But but I do think that Democrats ought to realize that, you know, with with all the craziness going on, he is pivoting Ron DeSantis has decided his theory was, I’m gonna pivot as hard right as possible. Weirdly, and some people are gonna be shocked by this. Donald Trump is moderating his position on issues like this.

I don’t think he goes to a six week ban.

Yeah. Ever. Even after he’s, reelected.

I don’t even think he’ll care then, Charlie Sykes

doesn’t care. No. No. He doesn’t care. I just I but the way he’s intimidated them, he actually said that

Yes.

That these pro life groups kinda like a business. He’s basically, it’s, of course, his projection on his part because everything is a grift. And instead of pushing back on that, these pro life group ago and, okay. Woah. Okay.

Do not piss him off. Right?

They’re gonna fold tent, and they really kind of already have. I mean, you can see dating back a few months to things that they’ve said. And so it’s it’s all out there. I mean, I thought last night more candidates would try to take advantage of this opening. Yeah.

And it was like, like, they know it’s over.

Yeah. And

that there was nothing to really there was nothing to drive a wedge. Between. And so I think Rhonda Sanders will say it a few places, you know, but they didn’t wanna grab the mic last night and make that, you know, they weren’t gonna make that the hill to die on, because also Ron DeSantis is avoiding saying that he, if he was president, would back a fifteen week ban. Yeah. He wants it both ways as well.

So it is really amazing. But the pro life leadership, and I say this in the piece, and I know I thought of you a lot when I was writing it Charlie. It’s hard to dump on them this directly, but

It is right.

Is a national band. Was the priority they would have already endorsed Tim Scott or Mike Pence?

This may sound like a digression, but leaving aside the, you know, six weeks versus fifteen weeks. I think the more telling moment this week was when Republicans, you know, desperate to throw some spaghetti up against the wall on the on the budget. Decided to cut one safety net program after another. Okay. So pro life ought to mean more than just abortion.

It ought to mean being in favor of children, families, mothers, life. There was a moment where when the dog caught the bus and they overturned row was okay. Well, the pro life movement now pivot to supporting, making it easier for mothers to have children out of wedlock, low income, you know, mothers to create an environment where children can thrive and families can thrive. Are we gonna see that more seamless fabric of life approach. The answer is decisively no since they’re in the business of cutting one program after another.

And I think this is one of the the critiques of the pro life movement that has been annoying to them for many years that they were only pro life up until the moment of birth. They had fifty years to come up with a persuasive answer or a credible answer to that. They failed to do it, and now it’s like they’re not even trying. They’re not even making an effort.

I have heard you describe your work in this space, and I feel so naive that after the June twenty fourth twenty twenty two decision comes out and a bomb goes off in this country. They had months until a midterm election

Months.

Then I guess they thought was in the bag. I guess they thought it was gonna be such a Yeah. Red tsunami. They didn’t need to deal with this, but I was convinced that they would come up with pro family, pro child, pro women measures to go and sell. To try to counter the anger that was clearly coming from Democrats and independents and some pro choice Republicans and that it was gonna result in energy at the polls.

I thought for sure they would protect themselves, even cynically, not even out of principle. Nothing.

Who’s

absolutely stunning. No one has come up. I mean, I think

No.

You know, Mitt Romney has some safety net, you know, programs that he’s been championing. For a while now. And

And child credits. Yeah.

And he gets no audience with this party for it. No one was interested in coming up with a response about how they were gonna ease this transition and welcome children into this world under very, very trying circumstances who might have been unwanted and make space in this country.

It continues to amaze me. Okay. One last question. I wanna get your reaction. Joe Biden, on the picket line, for the UAE strikers up in Michigan.

First time in the United States sitting United States president’s ever been on the picket line. I mean, the political calculation’s obvious. He is not seeding the ground of the working class to Donald Trump. Donald Trump is up there. He is trying to go after the blue collar vote as well.

So Give me your sense of the the risk reward here. Joe Biden on the picket line, it’s a strike. Donald Trump trying to play his populist card there. How do you see it playing out?

I mean, I think that by who it was a bold move, but I think on balance, he had to do it Mhmm. Because he’s bleeding support. From working class voters and unions are not as powerful as they once were and the membership is largely supportive of Donald Trump when the leadership is not. So it’s all been diluted as an electoral force. That could help Joe Biden next year.

Then, you know, you have Donald Trump who his supporters know everyone in that room last night, and most of them were not striking. They knew that he was muddying the issue. They knew that when he talks about you know, the EV transition. He just pretends all their jobs are going to China and they’re gonna get screwed. He did say I support the strikers having increased wages.

But he wasn’t taking their side. And so he was, again, trying to have it both ways, and some such and such filibuster fudge fudge filibuster which is his, you know, great gift and his supporters buy it. But it is a vulnerability for Joe Biden in that you know, those jobs in the EV transition are gonna be lost union jobs. It’s it’s tough for the democratic coalition, even on the environmentalist. Yeah.

Retention there. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think that he, in his situation, I feel like he kind of had no choice but to go do that.

Well, it was a bold movement. I I agree with your take on all of this. I mean, there is the risk and and it is there. You know, aligning himself with the union if the strike gets messy. But on the other hand, I think it was a an important announcement that I am going to fight for the working class vote.

You know, I am not going to give that up, which, by the way, is also maybe you didn’t have a choice because if you don’t fight for the working class vote, you’re gonna have a very, very hard time in Pennsylvania, in Michigan and Wisconsin, all the states that are gonna decide this. So It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out. I I also think that they have to double down on going after this fake populism of Donald Trump. The idea that Donald Trump the guy who screws over his employees doesn’t pay his contractors, you know, is a tax cheat, etcetera, that he somehow he is a champion of the working man It’s sort of like the absurdity of thinking that Donald Trump is a champion of the military that he actually has respect for the men and women in the military. It’s bullshit.

As is the notion that somehow is he is the law and order candidate while he’s also running with pledges to pardon many of the January six writers who attacked and beat and tased cops. So they need to go after those points, you know, bullshit that he supports the military, bullshit that he supports the police and bullshit that he supports a blue collar worker. So Hey, strap in for the next year and a half, AD.

That’s good advice though, Charlie Sykes I hope they will take it. They really are bleeding support from from those people, and they cannot win the selection with college, graduates alone. And I think that if Biden can’t do it, there are plenty of people in the party that can talk about Trump’s record with the auto workers. You know, there are other people who can articulate that. So we’ll see if they take your advice.

One more item of free advice. The moment that the Republican shut down the government Democratic surrogates need to be at the border saying, look what Republicans have done shutting down so many of these programs that are keeping our countries secure. Don’t concede that issue as well. He’s very clear that Kevin McCarthy and that Republicans are all in on this issue of immigration and border security. And yet, They cannot be allowed to shut down the government at the same time claiming they are the party of border security.

So, again, this is all free. Take it for

what it’s Even Mitch McConnell was trying to give him that advice on the Senate floor yesterday.

Exactly. And

of course, he’s the loudest person that they listen to. They listened to him less than they listen to Chuck Schumer. But he was making a salient point, and and I agree with you. I think immigration is really a terrible liability right now for the Democrats heading into next year, and that is a good moment to sort of own it and say, look what they’re doing. If they if they thought it was so important, they wouldn’t be defunding at this moment.

And I don’t expect them to take advice from me necessarily. AB Stoddard, thank you so much for joining me, AB, of course. Is the newest member of the Bulwark staff. Once again, welcome. Welcome to the team.

Thank you, Charlie Sykes fun to be with you again post debate. I wish that we’ll never be again together again post primary debate, but there is a third one on November eight. So we’ll see.

We’ll be together after the third one. I’m just telling you, we ought to make this kind of a a regular sort of thing.

Thank you

all for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. We will be back tomorrow, and we’ll do this all over it. The boat work podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.